Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MrReyes96]

I have come to the conclusion that donkey Kong jr will be the retro rep
If only to continue the debate whether he is the current donkey Kong or the current donkey kong’s father

Edit: give him the classic DK look

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

While I agree for the most part, we don't know if they would've worked on the Wii U perfectly either. 8-Player Smash proved to require a lot of power, as they had to actually make the models have less joints to make things run smoothly.

So it might be more than just the 3DS at this point. I don't think it would do much, but it also depends upon how well 16 characters would do onscreen with the Switch. IMO, it'd work fine. But it's quite possible it might not. Of course, I could see them simply not being selectable for it, and perhaps that would be removed from Classic Mode when they're involved. I mean, Mii Fighters aren't available in every mode, so it's not that big of a deal. It's clear that "rosters must be the same" was the only important point, not "everybody is available in every mode under all conditions".

This is all assuming 8-player smash even comes back tho. Imagine trying to play it on the switches screen tho lmfao yikes

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is all assuming 8-player smash even comes back tho. Imagine trying to play it on the switches screen tho lmfao yikes

That's kind of my point overall too. We don't know too little.

Though I could see it returning. We have GameCube controller options, after all. Though I don't remember if you can hook up up to 4 or 8?

 

[Radical Bones]

Seeing as Sakurai has wanted 8-player Smash forever, I don't think he'll get rid of it after realising it once.

I'm still worried for my favourite Icey couple.

 

[Zippo]

Monday is here.

Let's see what this week brings us.

 

[Danpal65]

Seeing as Sakurai has wanted 8-player Smash forever, I don't think he'll get rid of it after realising it once.

I'm still worried for my favourite Icey couple.

Honeslty, I expect 8-player Smash to stay. I mean the Switch can support up to 8 half JoyCon it is practically begging for it. What I could see happening though is for 8-player Smash to be only playable in docked mode so as to ensure that there is a large enough screen to be able to see everyone.

I doubt this would be a problem for the Ice Climbers though, I mean the reason they we're cut was supposedly because of the 3DS not 8-player Smash. So, fingers crossed for their cool cool return!

 

[Chandeelure]

Monday is here.

Let's see what this week brings us.

It's finally time.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Monday is here.

Let's see what this week brings us.

I have a good basis for a prediction: Has there been any news in the past couple hundred pages?

 

[Danpal65]

It's finally time.

I mean, yeah, I dig the enthusiasm Purple Space Dragon for Smash, but there is jumping the shark then there is jumping the shark, which this has got to be .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honeslty, I expect 8-player Smash to stay. I mean the Switch can support up to 8 half JoyCon it is practically begging for it. What I could see happening though is for 8-player Smash to be only playable in docked mode so as to ensure that there is a large enough screen to be able to see everyone.

I doubt this would be a problem for the Ice Climbers though, I mean the reason they we're cut was supposedly because of the 3DS not 8-player Smash. So, fingers crossed for their cool cool return!

There's a possibility 8-Player Smash would've been a problem for them too. As noted above, they had to actually remove joints from the models to make the characters work. That means it definitely taxed the system. That said, don't forget they had to remove certain hazards too, including Stage Bosses when too many were onscreen. Ice Climbers likely would not have worked well under it, and may have had limitations too.

It's not really some assumption or anything. It's just an observation with decent reasons to believe it might've been an issue if the 3DS wasn't alone. Not enough to remove them from the game, just that mode at best(or limit them to less IC's than 8 or something). Besides that, it's not much different from people thinking Chorus Kids were the ones who couldn't make it in for the same reason IC's were cut. Except obviously this has more stuff backing it than an outdated leak that could've actually made assumptions of some characters(like it could've said "Rhythm Heaven character". We already know that Gen VI was actually meant to be a "Gen VI character", so this type of thing is normal. Sakurai also specifically wanted someone from Awakening, and though it's clear Chrom was his first idea, if I understood the interviews right).

 

[Danpal65]

There's a possibility 8-Player Smash would've been a problem for them too. As noted above, they had to actually remove joints from the models to make the characters work. That means it definitely taxed the system. That said, don't forget they had to remove certain hazards too, including Stage Bosses when too many were onscreen. Ice Climbers likely would not have worked well under it, and may have had limitations too.

It's not really some assumption or anything. It's just an observation with decent reasons to believe it might've been an issue if the 3DS wasn't alone. Not enough to remove them from the game, just that mode at best(or limit them to less IC's than 8 or something). Besides that, it's not much different from people thinking Chorus Kids were the ones who couldn't make it in for the same reason IC's were cut. Except obviously this has more stuff backing it than an outdated leak that could've actually made assumptions of some characters(like it could've said "Rhythm Heaven character". We already know that Gen VI was actually meant to be a "Gen VI character", so this type of thing is normal. Sakurai also specifically wanted someone from Awakening, and though it's clear Chrom was his first idea, if I understood the interviews right).

That's a fair and understandable point. Hopefully Sakurai will be able to get them working in this game then. I doubt anyone would be upset if we lost some stage hazards and/or bosses to allow them in 8-player Smash.

From what I can tell, the big thing that should allow the Icies to work in Smash on the Switch is the fact that the Switch has a much better CPU than the WiiU, which should help with the the processing problems that the WiiU had. Not to say it is an instant magic fix, but certainly a boon for their inclusion.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Honestly, I’d rather have IC back than 8-Player Smash. I never really cared for it :/

Compromises had to be made to models/hazards to even get it running, it led to some ridiculously big stages, and it was just all kinds of chaos to try and play.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I could honestly care less about 8-Player Smash. Was never fond of the idea, and Smash as a game is definitely not built around eight players. It's a bit too chaotic for my tastes.

If I had to choose between that and Ice Climbers, the Ice Climbers would be in by a longshot.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It hit me that Switch is part handheld earlier today and that might hurt the Ice Climbers if 8 Player Smash is back. And honestly if a mode is harming the roster. I think the mode should go.

But that's just my opinion.

I'd rather have more unique newcomers and characters than ''NOW PLAY WITH 8 OF YOUR FRIENDS." No. We're adults and capable of taking turns. Thanks though.

 

[Danpal65]

I could honestly care less about 8-Player Smash. Was never fond of the idea, and Smash as a game is definitely not built around eight players. It's a bit too chaotic for my tastes.

If I had to choose between that and Ice Climbers, the Ice Climbers would be in by a longshot.

Oh absolutely. It is a pretty fun mode to play casually, especially if you have a group of 5 so that there is not one person left out. However, it certainly should not be included over a character, hence why hopefully both can get in so everyone is happy.

Edit: I can be mature and not want one of my friends to be left out each match

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think it's just better to not let them be in that mode than to remove it. I feel both parts are good.

This isn't the same case as "not on both rosters" either. We know for a fact that characters can be cut from modes. It's not an issue. Mii Fighters are not available for With Anyone(Online), and if I remember right, certain event matches don't allow them even though it allows other options. But regardless, see my first example anyway.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honeslty, I expect 8-player Smash to stay. I mean the Switch can support up to 8 half JoyCon it is practically begging for it. What I could see happening though is for 8-player Smash to be only playable in docked mode so as to ensure that there is a large enough screen to be able to see everyone.

I doubt this would be a problem for the Ice Climbers though, I mean the reason they we're cut was supposedly because of the 3DS not 8-player Smash. So, fingers crossed for their cool cool return!

Has sakurai ever commented on the icies and 8-player smash though? didn't he talk about them being cut because of the 3DS before 8 player smash was even announced?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I think it's just better to not let them be in that mode than to remove it. I feel both parts are good.

This isn't the same case as "not on both rosters" either. We know for a fact that characters can be cut from modes. It's not an issue. Mii Fighters are not available for With Anyone(Online), and if I remember right, certain event matches don't allow them even though it allows other options. But regardless, see my first example anyway.

I don't think Miis being unavailable in some online modes and Ice Climbers being unavailable in 8-Player Smash is a fair comparison.

Firstly, they're Miis. They're entirely optional characters that you can create. They aren't really meant to be a core part of the Smash roster and are simply there to take advantage of the game's customization features. I believe it is for that reason that they are excluded from the online modes and All-Star Mode (which is a pretty stupid reason, for online modes you should be able to make a Mii but it discards any special effects such as better smash attacks, same for All-Star Mode albeit only for the auto-heal abilities, pretty silly to remove customization for that mode when it's already in Classic Mode, but I digress).

Secondly, 8-Player Smash is marketed as a multiplayer mode, unlike things like Event Matches and All-Star Mode. It's supposed to be a mode where you get all your friends together and have fun. Plenty of players are gonna be upset and/or confused when they find out that Ice Climbers are grayed out from the roster for the mode, which effectively limits the fun players can have. Furthermore, it makes zero since to gray out features directly related to game balance. It's alright to gray out stages and such, but not characters. Granted, the Miis are characters too, but as mentioned before, they are optional in the first place, so it makes sense for them to be the odd ones out.

 

[Sage of Ice]

if they wanna include both the ice climbers and 8-player smash, would it be possible to simply limit the number of people who can pick the climbers at once? that way you're not barring them altogether, but you're not forcing the machine to think about 16 parka-wearing gnomes at the same time

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think Miis being unavailable in some online modes and Ice Climbers being unavailable in 8-Player Smash is a fair comparison.

Firstly, they're Miis. They're entirely optional characters that you can create. They aren't really meant to be a core part of the Smash roster and are simply there to take advantage of the game's customization features. I believe it is for that reason that they are excluded from the online modes and All-Star Mode (which is a pretty stupid reason, for online modes you should be able to make a Mii but it discards any special effects such as better smash attacks, same for All-Star Mode albeit only for the auto-heal abilities, pretty silly to remove customization for that mode when it's already in Classic Mode, but I digress).

Secondly, 8-Player Smash is marketed as a multiplayer mode, unlike things like Event Matches and All-Star Mode. It's supposed to be a mode where you get all your friends together and have fun. Plenty of players are gonna be upset and/or confused when they find out that Ice Climbers are grayed out from the roster for the mode, which effectively limits the fun players can have. Furthermore, it makes zero since to gray out features directly related to game balance. It's alright to gray out stages and such, but not characters. Granted, the Miis are characters too, but as mentioned before, they are optional in the first place, so it makes sense for them to be the odd ones out.

It's still an apt comparison because it heavily affects one choices. The fact Miis can't be played With Anyone is a huge complaint people have. It's not really actually different at this point. It's still a mode that takes out a character.

IC's may not work at max number, and that could stop them from being in the mode. That is a bad reason to cut them from the game even then. 3DS was understandable, as rosters were meant to be the same.

if they wanna include both the ice climbers and 8-player smash, would it be possible to simply limit the number of people who can pick the climbers at once? that way you're not barring them altogether, but you're not forcing the machine to think about 16 parka-wearing gnomes at the same time

That wouldn't help much because people want the option. Limiting them somewhat would stop players from choosing one character while others got that same choice. All-or-nothing is ultimately more fair in those kinds of cases. I'd prefer all, but we don't know how development will go.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'm still worried for my favourite Icey couple.

Would you perhaps settle for a second-favorite icy individual?

Because hee-ho I absolutely would.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Would you perhaps settle for a second-favorite icy individual?

Because hee-ho I absolutely would.

I would prefer he got in as part of Joker's moveset.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I would prefer he got in as part of Joker's moveset.

That is a curious ordeal, actually: If SMT/Persona got a character in Smash Bros. only as a Summoner/Persona-user, who would they go with? Flynn is the protagonist of SMTIV and the most recent name to hit a Nintendo console, but I'm worried that he may or may not share too many similarities with Chrom's popularity given that SMTV is coming out sooner than later.

Persona I'm just not sure about in general, as that seems to be PlayStation exclusive. Not to mention that outside of recency, Joker doesn't really have any edges over Makoto Yuki or Yu Narukami in terms of which Persona protagonist to go with.

That's why I'm personally more confident in Jack Frost himself making an appearance than any of the actual protagonists.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That is a curious ordeal, actually: If SMT/Persona got a character in Smash Bros. only as a Summoner/Persona-user, who would they go with? Flynn is the protagonist of SMTIV and the most recent name to hit a Nintendo console, but I'm worried that he may or may not share too many similarities with Chrom's popularity given that SMTV is coming out sooner than later.

SMTV came along too late to be considered for this Smash I would imagine. And SMTIV came out forever ago. Persona 5 sort of hits that sweet spot, coming out in 2016. I would imagine if we're getting a character from the SMT/Persona corner, it'd either be Joker or Jack Frost himself.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

SMTV came along too late to be considered for this Smash I would imagine. And SMTIV came out forever ago. Persona 5 sort of hits that sweet spot, coming out in 2016. I would imagine if we're getting a character from the SMT/Persona corner, it'd either be Joker or Jack Frost himself.

Given the similarities between Persona-users and Blade-users in Xenoblade 2, I'm also concerned that Sakurai would simply choose Rex for that type of summoner-style gameplay over a third-party. Xenoblade characters would be way easier to acquire than SMT/Persona, after all. Which is shame, really.

Assuming Ice Climbers can't make it back for whatever reason, I would at least trust Jack Frost that much more to make it in as a unique fighter. I can't think of any other huge stand-outs among ice-fighters in gaming, at least. Not that none exist, just none that immediately spring to mind personally.

 

[Arcanir]

SMTV came along too late to be considered for this Smash I would imagine. And SMTIV came out forever ago. Persona 5 sort of hits that sweet spot, coming out in 2016. I would imagine if we're getting a character from the SMT/Persona corner, it'd either be Joker or Jack Frost himself.

SMTIV:A also came out about in 2016, so its world and mythos would be as relevant as Persona 5.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Given the similarities between Persona-users and Blade-users in Xenoblade 2, I'm also concerned that Sakurai would simply choose Rex for that type of summoner-style gameplay over a third-party. Xenoblade characters would be way easier to acquire than SMT/Persona, after all. Which is shame, really.

Assuming Ice Climbers can't make it back for whatever reason, I would at least trust Jack Frost that much more to make it in as a unique fighter. I can't think of any other huge stand-outs among ice-fighters in gaming, at least. Not that none exist, just none that immediately spring to mind personally.

Pre Smash 4, I would've agreed with you about Jack Frost seeming more likely. But with the addition of Cloud, there is absolutely no reason Joker couldn't be in the game. Also, there are Persona games released on Nintendo consoles in the form of Persona Q/Q2. Joker will definitely be in Persona Q2. And I think there aren't as many similarities as you think between Xenoblade 2 blades and Personas. The Personas don't necessarily change too much about Joker beyond his ability list and his weaknesses, whereas different blades can change how Rex moves/fights entirely. Joker maintains the same basic attacks regardless of the Persona equipped. Blades are also more directly involved with fighting than Personas. They share similarities, but not too much beyond the concept of having a support figure.

SMTIV:A also came out about in 2016, so its world and mythos would be as relevant as Persona 5.

You're right, I had overlooked that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Has sakurai ever commented on the icies and 8-player smash though? didn't he talk about them being cut because of the 3DS before 8 player smash was even announced?

He said he got them working on the Wii U.

So I'll assume they worked there. Or at least well enough to pass.

 

[Danpal65]

Has sakurai ever commented on the icies and 8-player smash though? didn't he talk about them being cut because of the 3DS before 8 player smash was even announced?

I did not think so. I may have been unclear in what I was trying to say, but I was referring to Sakurai cutting ICs because of the 3DS.

My point was that that was their reason for being cut not 8-player Smash. So we do not know specifically how well they would have gelled with the mode, although probably not too well considering the cuts that needed to be made to make the mode work, which Tyrannomon pointed out.

 

[Gestahl]

I could drop the IC if they made a 16player smash mode! That would be the ultimate killer mode!

 

[Dig Dug]

If 8 player smash does return, I just hope they leave those really big stages out of the online stage rotation. For fun was already a big enough mess without them.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Xenobloade had 1 game, that barely sold well before Shulk got in Smash. Nintendo didn't even give a crap about it to localize it, and ONLY after a large petition did they decide to cast a lower budget British cast to dub the game.

Rhythm Heaven at that point had 3 games, which sold over 4 millions copies around the time. With the newest game being released in July 2011

Golden Sun had 3 games with its latest game releasing in October 2010. The series had sold around 3.7 million copies at that time.

Chibi Robo had 4 games at the time. With its latest game releasing in July 2013. Around the time the series had sold around 0.77 million copies (not counting sales for PF since digital sales are hard to determine).

Dillon had 2 games around the time with the latest game coming out in April 2013. (No sales info for digitals)

Advance Wars had its latest game coming out January, 2008 (4 total). Around the time the series had sold 2.3 million. This isn't counting the Wars series as a whole either.

Custom Robo had 5 games selling at least 1.5 million copies, with its latest game coming out Feb 2008.

You know when Xenoblade first came out? June 2010. You know how many sales it had at the time? 0.79M

Notice anything about these "dormant" series? How about that 4/6 of them had more recent releases than Xenoblade. The other 2 were only two years older. 4 of the series had sold more than Xenoblade at the time, while the other 2 series didn't have accurate numbers. (Both likely outsold XB).

So next time you try to take a jab, get off your high horse and actually look up the series and the argument I'm making. Xenoblade was amazing and I really wanted Shulk in Smash 4, but that still does not mean it deserved the fast pass it got. If Smash 4's roster was decided sometime in 2012, that means each of these series had a recent game 4 years prior. Again 4 of those series were more current and already had multiple sequels. XB had 1 game. That favoritism.

If you think about it Xenoblade was the 5th installment of the popular Xeno franchise, and there is a good chance Sakurai knew the franchise would continue (plans for Xenoblade X started back in 2011).

For Rhythm Heaven there is evidence in Smash's data that suggests a Rhythm Heaven character was going to be in the game, but was cut for unknown reasons (some theorize technical reasons).

Chibi-Robo was pretty damn obscure/niche, and the first 3 games combined sold less than Xenoblade.

Dillon's game was a small eshop title, that was met with a rather lukewarm response, and the sequel came out over a year after the roster was decided

You could argue that Advance Wars doesn't really have any stand out characters that lend themselves well to being playable Smash characters, and it didn't have a foreseeable future.

The latest Custom Robo game actually came out in 2006 not 2008, and 5 games selling 1.5 million copies isn't that impressive, in fact Xenoblade sold more than any single Custom Robo game, and the last two games were met with mixed to average reception.

The absence of a Golden Sun character is really the only thing you can argue is questionable, but even then you could argue that the last game didn't do well compared to it's predecessors, and the series didn't have a foreseeable future.

It's not fair to compare the sales numbers of just the first game of a series to the sales numbers of multiple games from a series combined. And one thing Xenoblade had in it's favor was the amount of critical acclaim the game received. No game you mentioned had as much critical acclaim as Xenoblade. I'm also curious where you are getting these sales numbers from.

It's also not like the amount of games and sales a series has is the end all be all when deciding characters. Moveset potential and character popularity/requests are things to consider too. Shulk's sword had unique attributes and he had the unique ability to change his stats, and as far as I could tell Shulk was more requested than the characters from the franchises you mentioned, aside from Isaac.

 

[Koopaul]

8-Player Smash isn't that great anyway. It's utter chaos. I can never make heads or tails of what's going on and it would be even worse on that tiny Switch screen off the dock. Can you imagine? Eight people huddled around a tiny screen? Sounds awful. And sure, you don't have to play that mode undocked, but I would think Sakurai would want to capitalize on the Switch's main function and 8-Player Smash just would not work well with it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

May be an unpopular opinion...

But I think 8 player smash is worth more than the Ice Climbers.

Ideally we get both but...

I'd rather we keep 8 player smash.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

May be an unpopular opinion...

But I think 8 player smash is worth more than the Ice Climbers.

Ideally we get both but...

I'd rather we keep 8 player smash.

Same boat here. 8 players Smash can be a blast at times and, no offense to any IC fans, I don't really find IC special and don't really miss them.

 

[Danpal65]

May be an unpopular opinion...

But I think 8 player smash is worth more than the Ice Climbers.

Ideally we get both but...

I'd rather we keep 8 player smash.

I think if it were to come down to the ICs or 8-Player Smash the ICs would definitely be the ones to go.

From a marketing standpoint 8-Player Smash is much more appealing to the casual audience rather than a character that has not been in a game since 2008 and originated on the NES. As much as people love the Ice Climbers they just are not as appealing outside of the competitive scene and those that really liked the character.

 

[Staarih]

I hardly touched 8-player Smash and long for Ice Climbers soo much that picking between them... I’d rather have IC’s.

But I feel they’re going to want to emphasize on Switch’s capabilities when creating the new game, and JoyCon sharing and all that jazz is a perfect fit for 8-player Smash so I see it returning.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

A lot of things were changed in 8-Player Smash to allow it to run without hindering performance. During 8-Player Smash the background elements of some stages were changed, such as the planets remaining stationary in the Mario Galaxy stage, and the mirror being removed from the Wii-Fit stage.

Also, several stages in 8-Player Smash had their hazards/elements removed, such as the lava from the Metroid stage, the breakable pillars from the Luigi's Mansion stage, King Bulbin destroying part of the Bridge of Eldin stage, the Shy Guys from the Mario Kart stage, the Pokémon Stadium's stage alterations, and of course Ridley and Metal face are removed from their stages.

Even some character models are altered a bit, like the Wii-Fit Trainers thumb.

If 8 player Smash can't handle stuff like that I doubt it would be able to handle 16 Ice Climbers at a time.

 

[vegeta18]

can switch do 8 player?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

can switch do 8 player?

Up to 8 Nintendo Switch systems can be connected for local wireless multiplayer gaming.

Also you can use 2 Gamecube adapters.