Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[LetterO]

Mascot supersedes the self-insert protagonist, IMO.
>

There's a difference between Pikachu who's been marketed as the mascot since the beginning of the franchise & Trainer which changes every game and Isabelle who's only been a mascot in the most recent of the 5 mainline AC games & Villager who has been mostly the same in every game besides looks.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Isabelle should be in, but I love the Villager being in simply because of the Killager meme.

I don’t think you’d viably cut either of them regardless.

 

[The Animator]

That’s the one with Ganon, Mewtwo, and Giga Bowser right?

I always used Yoshi and spammed down dair to rack up damage, then smash them off the stage.

If I remember correctly I did it with Mr. Game & Watch by spamming the judge attack.

*edit Also I noticed the original poster said event 50 (Master Hand and Crazy Hand) 51 (Ganon, Mewtwo, and Giga Bowser) I'm pretty sure I did both with Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Deleted member]

Cut both, put in Resetti.
Everyone wins :V

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mascot supersedes the self-insert protagonist, IMO.
>

Not really. It's not that simple.

You can either get the mascot of the series or the mascot of their particular game. Joker is the mascot of Persona 5. But not the Persona series as a whole. Cloud is not the original mascot of the series, but he is of his game. He can be argued as the mascot of the series at this point, but it didn't happen right away either. Isabelle eventually became the mascot of AC, but it didn't just suddenly happen right off the bat. Not when the official mascot, Villager, still existed. He still would've gotten in first, since he had more clear moveset potential, which also plays a role. Things have never been that black and white. Besides that, Pokemon Trainer having extra assets onscreen is probably more of why he didn't get in till Brawl, not just because of Pikachu alone(albeit, they went with a generic Trainer instead of Red himself, so it could also be because there wasn't any way to make Trainer more than a background piece. But that falls squarely under moveset issues anyway).

Both can happen. Villager was pretty much the de facto choice since he had more recognizable clear gameplay and was the original mascot of the series(and still is a mascot of the games he's in. Isabelle is a newer mascot, which is part of why she was such an obvious choice to add).

 

[Robertman2]

Hard disagree. Trials to me were just gym battles, but sometimes worse. The game feels so railroaded it’s ridiculous, instantly killing any motivation to repay it. There are so many cutscenes and lines of dialogue and unskippable moments it feels like you’re only able to actually play minutes at a time. Plus, Z-moves just feel so tacked on to me. That’s just what I think though. Feels like almost all the things it did to “change the forumla” were surface level and didn’t actually change anything. Oh, and the post-game sucked imo.

Let's Go did a better job of changing the formula

 

[RyuhoFox]

There's a difference between Pikachu who's been marketed as the mascot since the beginning of the franchise & Trainer which changes every game and Isabelle who's only been a mascot in the most recent of the 5 mainline AC games & Villager who has been mostly the same in every game besides looks.

Actually iirc Clefairy was the one marketed to be the mascot originally and was later switched to Pikachu once they saw how popular it became.
Im not sure that argument for Villager works though. They are an actual self insert every single game while Red at the very least is shown to have an in universe life and personality. The villagers are as much of a self insert nobody as the trainers, likely even more so. Iirc the villager design in Smash is also based off one of the newer games as well.

Not really. It's not that simple.

You can either get the mascot of the series or the mascot of their particular game. Joker is the mascot of Persona 5. But not the Persona series as a whole. Cloud is not the original mascot of the series, but he is of his game. He can be argued as the mascot of the series at this point, but it didn't happen right away either. Isabelle eventually became the mascot of AC, but it didn't just suddenly happen right off the bat. Not when the official mascot, Villager, still existed. He still would've gotten in first, since he had more clear moveset potential, which also plays a role. Things have never been that black and white. Besides that, Pokemon Trainer having extra assets onscreen is probably more of why he didn't get in till Brawl, not just because of Pikachu alone(albeit, they went with a generic Trainer instead of Red himself, so it could also be because there wasn't any way to make Trainer more than a background piece. But that falls squarely under moveset issues anyway).

Both can happen. Villager was pretty much the de facto choice since he had more recognizable clear gameplay and was the original mascot of the series(and still is a mascot of the games he's in. Isabelle is a newer mascot, which is part of why she was such an obvious choice to add).

Tmk weren't Tom Nook and KK Slider more considered the mascots and not the villager themself? Tmk villager was usually campaigned for because it was the character players used more than being the mascot. Heck iirc they didn't even get the villager name until their introduction to Smash to begin with.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

There's a difference between Pikachu who's been marketed as the mascot since the beginning of the franchise & Trainer which changes every game and Isabelle who's only been a mascot in the most recent of the 5 mainline AC games & Villager who has been mostly the same in every game besides looks.

That's because Isabelle's a new addition to the Animal Crossing series. Of course she wouldn't have been a mascot until the more recent games...

 

[KMDP]

Hard disagree. Trials to me were just gym battles, but sometimes worse. The game feels so railroaded it’s ridiculous, instantly killing any motivation to repay it. There are so many cutscenes and lines of dialogue and unskippable moments it feels like you’re only able to actually play minutes at a time. Plus, Z-moves just feel so tacked on to me. That’s just what I think though. Feels like almost all the things it did to “change the forumla” were surface level and didn’t actually change anything. Oh, and the post-game sucked imo.

Don't forget the fact that in order to make Z-Moves the big thing, they did a little "character assassination" of Mega Evolution, often making the process seem darker and more evil, sometimes even painful to the Pokémon in question (through the Pokédex entries).

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Advent Children exists.

I mean a western, live action production.

 

[Penroze]

good day, smashboards!

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If I had to cut the Smash Ultimate Roster down to 35 it'd probably look like this.


This was hard. Lucario and Bowser Jr. almost made it. I wanted to limit myself to 3 3rd party characters, and I felt they were the best choices. I was also torn between Villager and Isabelle.

If Pokémon Trainer is cheating than Charizard on his own is fine.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually iirc Clefairy was the one marketed to be the mascot originally and was later switched to Pikachu once they saw how popular it became.
Im not sure that argument for Villager works though. They are an actual self insert every single game while Red at the very least is shown to have an in universe life and personality. The villagers are as much of a self insert nobody as the trainers, likely even more so. Iirc the villager design in Smash is also based off one of the newer games as well.

Though in this case, it changed to the point that Pikachu was severely marketed that it wasn't even a contest. Plus, they both have clear moveset potential.

That's kind of where Villager is different from Isabelle. Isabelle only got in because she could be a clone of Villager when it came to moveset potential. She doesn't normally do the same things, so that wasn't an easy inspiration. She just happened to be in games like Amiibo Festival that showed her doing enough action to justify her using the same moveset as Villager to a basic degree. Otherwise, it was pretty much unique or bust. She was impossible to be an Echo due to a completely different bodyshape. And as noted by how glitchy she is, she was clearly rushed a bit when it came to playtesting, which suggests fully unique was unlikely to happen. That said, the purpose of Villager was to show off what the game was like. That isn't what Isabelle is. Villager would've most likely been chosen first due to this fact alone. Representing the game series better is often more important than simply just having the latest mascot. Pikachu is more of an exception to this at best.

Tmk weren't Tom Nook and KK Slider more considered the mascots and not the villager themself? Tmk villager was usually campaigned for because it was the character players used more than being the mascot. Heck iirc they didn't even get the villager name until their introduction to Smash to begin with.

As I said up above(not this post), being a series mascot and mascot of your game is two different things. Villager is still a mascot for each game he's in, though yes, they were more marketed. He(or she) is still vastly important and key to the series. But as I just said, sometimes making sure you understand how the game works or try to represent its gameplay is a lot more important than simply just choosing the series mascot alone. Isabelle just doesn't work under that type of design. She works great as a secondary character to put in and definitely deserves her spot. She just doesn't fill the "represent what the series is about" niche, since that's not her job or role within the series, really. She has a different one.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

If they made a Final Fantasy movie do you think they should start with 1 or 7?

They already made a Final Fantasy movie,
They did neither, and gave it the title of Spirits Within,

 

[KarneraMythos]

Honestly I think Pokemon has been going downhill as a whole starting with XY. HG/SS, Platinum, and gen 5 are the best games imo.

This right here. Gen 5 is still my favorite. The issue for me isn't the Pokemon designs themselves. They still get creative with a lot of them (though some are definitely miss), and my favorite 'Mon comes from Gen 7. The problem is that they move at a snail's pace when it comes to ideas. So much potential in the current games, only to miss the mark oh so much. This is putting aside the Gen 1 pandering.

EDIT: I should clarify that I don't dislike Kalos, the new Hoenn, or Alola. I very much love the settings, characters, most of the NPCs, and Poke'mon. I speak from a mechanics perspective. I also miss the animated sprites from Unova. Those were fun :<

 

[RyuhoFox]

I...still don't get the complaints about "too many cutscenes" in the gen 7 games. There's not really many in the game and most don't go over a minute or so in length. Unless people are counting every time you are stopped to talk as a cutscene for some inane reason.

 

[Will]

Mascot supersedes the self-insert protagonist, IMO.
>

And yet Frisk has to be in Smash first and bone my boi Sans because muh protagonist?

wow you people have double standards smh

 

[Noipoi]

good day, smashboards!

Good day!

 

[Lollipopped]

If I had to cut the Smash Ultimate Roster down to 35 it'd probably look like this.


This was hard. Lucario and Bowser Jr. almost made it. I wanted to limit myself to 3 3rd party characters, and I felt they were the best choices.

If Pokémon Trainer is cheating than Charizard on his own is fine.

No offense, but if that's what the roster would have to be limited to, I probably wouldn't have any interest in playing it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Diem]

Not really. It's not that simple.

You can either get the mascot of the series or the mascot of their particular game. Joker is the mascot of Persona 5. But not the Persona series as a whole. Cloud is not the original mascot of the series, but he is of his game. He can be argued as the mascot of the series at this point, but it didn't happen right away either. Isabelle eventually became the mascot of AC, but it didn't just suddenly happen right off the bat. Not when the official mascot, Villager, still existed. He still would've gotten in first, since he had more clear moveset potential, which also plays a role. Things have never been that black and white. Besides that, Pokemon Trainer having extra assets onscreen is probably more of why he didn't get in till Brawl, not just because of Pikachu alone(albeit, they went with a generic Trainer instead of Red himself, so it could also be because there wasn't any way to make Trainer more than a background piece. But that falls squarely under moveset issues anyway).

Both can happen. Villager was pretty much the de facto choice since he had more recognizable clear gameplay and was the original mascot of the series(and still is a mascot of the games he's in. Isabelle is a newer mascot, which is part of why she was such an obvious choice to add).

In addition, Chrom is the mascot of sorts for Fire Emblem: Awakening. He's on the cover of the game, he's there from the beginning, he's the one a lot of people requested, but originally Sakurai deemed him too derivative, since he'd be just another sword user in the same (literal) vein of Marth and Ike.

Then, someone presented the idea of using Robin instead, who, despite being less popular and having less of a personality/character (as the player character), had way more unique moveset potential, hence why Chrom wasn't added until Echo Fighters were given a distinction.

So it really is a case by case basis. Sometimes the mascot of a game doesn't make as much sense as other options.

 

[KarneraMythos]

And yet Frisk has to be in Smash first and bone my boi Sans because muh protagonist?

wow you people have double standards smh

I still do. Both Pikachu and Red/Leaf are fine sharing a roster together. As for Frisk, there's a lot of potential with them, whereas Sans works better as a trollish stage hazard/assist trophy that you and your friends can harp on. I'd still play Sans if we get him, but I vastly prefer the protagonist.

 

[Noipoi]

And yet Frisk has to be in Smash first and bone my boi Sans because muh protagonist?

wow you people have double standards smh

I'm gonna be honest.

I'm gonna start pushing Sans more.

As long as it's Undertale, I win.

 

[KingBroly]

In a normal world it would be. For the dumbest reasons ever, WarioWare and Castle Seige are contentious among parts of the community.

I feel like the second part of Castle Siege is so much worse now because hits have a pause effect now, and with the statues, it just eats your attacks hard.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Oh look a roster where every pokemon that isn't gen 1 was tossed....

I'm gonna be honest.

I'm gonna start pushing Sans more.

As long as it's Undertale, I win.

Asriel: GoH. Make it a win for the furry board friendo too

 

[Noipoi]

Oh look a roster where every pokemon that isn't gen 1 was tossed....

It's a sin.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They already made a Final Fantasy movie,
They did neither, and gave it the title of Spirits Within,

It seems more like a nod to how the series is unique in each entry. It doesn't feel entirely off from the newer games since VII either. Which is way more high-tech than previous games. The way the whole spirits thing comes up is similar to the Livestream, and likely influenced by it(unless there's more data on the movie's creation).

My original opinion of the movie is; it's a great movie, it's not just a Final Fantasy movie. But I'd say it still fits fine within the series overall, it's just more its own thing than you'd expect. For instance, with FF being notably turn-based from the start, even with battle gauge, having a completely different action rpg style is a huge change. Being an MMORPG itself is a huge change, which are mainline titles too. To me, it feels like it jumped the shark the second it went too far with the gameplay and changed it up too much. Those are cool for spin-offs, and updating the turn-based to be more intuitive is fine(which is what battle gauge was). It was never a straight turn-based series alone either, as you didn't have a character go, then another character, and so on. You chose people, and agility took course in who hit first, all automated.

In addition, Chrom is the mascot of sorts for Fire Emblem: Awakening. He's on the cover of the game, he's there from the beginning, he's the one a lot of people requested, but originally Sakurai deemed him too derivative, since he'd be just another sword user in the same (literal) vein of Marth and Ike.

Then, someone presented the idea of using Robin instead, who, despite being less popular and having less of a personality/character (as the player character), had way more unique moveset potential, hence why Chrom wasn't added until Echo Fighters were given a distinction.

So it really is a case by case basis. Sometimes the mascot of a game doesn't make as much sense as other options.

True. Though, from what I've observed, not that it's a hard rule, it seems for the first entrant in a franchise, they will use the series' mascot or a mascot from a specific game in the series. It's why I believe both Erdrick and Slime are extremely good choices respectively. And on equal levels of importance. They both are severely important to the series and all.

Keep in mind I never thought mascots inherently could get in from another game over a less important character by default. It only mattered for the first entrant in the franchise itself. I probably didn't clear it up what my opinion of how mascots mattered was. Villager is arguably the only character who wasn't a proper mascot at this point, but still the first entrant. But that might also make him the exception to this style of choice. I forgot about him when saying my belief on how mascots work, to be fair.

 

[Will]

Oh look a roster where every pokemon that isn't gen 1 was tossed....

I mean let's be fair do we really need anyone else that isn't when it comes down the bare essentials? actually you're right we need ****ing buzzwole

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I mean let's be fair do we really need anyone else that isn't when it comes down the bare essentials? actually you're right we need ****ing buzzwole

Maybe . The most popular Pokemon in Japan according to a 2016 poll, and even had it's own spotlight in the Detective Pikachu trailer (Being the only non Gen 1 Pokemon to really do so), meaning that it's definitely a focus for the Pokemon Company

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean let's be fair do we really need anyone else that isn't when it comes down the bare essentials? actually you're right we need ****ing buzzwole

The Pokemon Company pushes Lucario as a bare essential more than Squirtle and Ivysaur.

 

[Will]

Maybe

Especially not corporate pick Greninja.

Though I've always been fond of Rotom.

 

[Deleted member]

I would gladly cut Villager for Isabelle if I had to. I like Villager, but Isabelle has a ton more personality to her and in general is just more fun to have in Smash for me.

 

[Deleted member]

I...still don't get the complaints about "too many cutscenes" in the gen 7 games. There's not really many in the game and most don't go over a minute or so in length. Unless people are counting every time you are stopped to talk as a cutscene for some inane reason.

I just call them cutscenes because that’s the simplest term. Quicker then saying something like unskippable dialogue anyway.
My problem with them was that it felt like you couldn’t walk two steps without some characters coming up, saying something and then leaving. It slashes the game’s pace to a ****ing crawl and again kills replayability.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I...still don't get the complaints about "too many cutscenes" in the gen 7 games. There's not really many in the game and most don't go over a minute or so in length. Unless people are counting every time you are stopped to talk as a cutscene for some inane reason.

They are counting those because it fades to black and forces you to watch 3D models go through their janky animations with their horrific emotionless facial expressions and spend several minutes to explain something that should take 30 seconds, and which you should be able to skip regardless.

 

[Will]

The Pokemon Company pushes Lucario as a bare essential more than Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Oh yeah, that is true, Lucario is a big thing in the series now. He's basically the Fighting Pokemon.
Throw him in the batch, too.

I would gladly cut Villager for Isabelle if I had to. I like Villager, but Isabelle has a ton more personality to her and in general is just more fun to have in Smash for me.

ah yes, i too want the mayor's secretary over the mayor

 

[RyuhoFox]

I'd say Lucario at the very least. He tends to stay very popular. Greninja has retained a fair bit of popularity as well.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Honestly Villager being replaced by Isabelle isn't that out of the question. The way I see it isn't she basically seen as the mascot of Animal Crossing nowadays?

I also couldn't see Lucario being cut tbh.

 

[Pakky]

Did you just call Wolf a clone

View attachment 185130

Nope I said he was a totally different turn on the set

 

[Wyoming]

I mean let's be fair do we really need anyone else that isn't when it comes down the bare essentials? actually you're right we need ****ing buzzwole

Lucario, Charizard, and Greninja are super popular. Whether the latter maintains that way with the passing of time remains to be seen but the first two are monumental characters for the series.

Squirtle is arguable. He's one of the most recognizable Pokemon out there and a very popular starter Pokemon.

Jigglypuff is a bit outdated but she's still a recognizable 'mon for more people than not.

Pichu and Ivysaur are extra fat but eh. I don't think Incineroar will reach the heights of being super popular either.

 

[Robertman2]

Cutting so many good third parties and leaving Mega Man? Eughhhhh

 

[Arcanir]

I...still don't get the complaints about "too many cutscenes" in the gen 7 games. There's not really many in the game and most don't go over a minute or so in length. Unless people are counting every time you are stopped to talk as a cutscene for some inane reason.

A combination of that and not being able to skip cutscenes/important dialogue in any capacity. The latter in particular is a problem since not only is it an option most modern games give, it makes repeat/speed playthroughs more of a slog since you're forced to go through those events over and over with no option to get out of it.

I mean let's be fair do we really need anyone else that isn't when it comes down the bare essentials? actually you're right we need ****ing buzzwole

has been pushed extensively since its debut and was even showcased among popular Kanto Pokémon in the Super Bowl commercial celebrating its 20th anniversary. has also been featured in promotional material, including the Detective Pikachu movie.

So yes, you can and should represent other Pokémon outside of the first because there are Pokémon that are hugely prominent outside of that batch.