Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

For a Spyro stage, i would like one of the flying levels, with a gimmick similar to Rainbow Road or Skyloft.

Everyone knows my idea for a Crash stage, so i won’t tell it unless they ask me to.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

I would blame in that case HAL Laboratory and not Sakurai.
They worked on Smash Bros 64, Melee and Brawl, so they probably took the chance to support one of their properties.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No complaints from me.

*sings Fire Emblem theme obnoxiously loud*

You know what I'm not even mad you made this joke.
Especially cause Charlotte here is sexualization done right imo

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

He was going to remove Ness for Lucas, but development plans changed that. Lucas was going to be in Melee, but Mother 64(which became Mother 3 at some point) got canned.

He was going to do so in Brawl again, but then he learned Mother 3 isn't getting translated. So he kept both to please multiple fans.

He cut Lucas in the base Smash 4 roster.

As for AC, it could work with 1 or 2 characters. Isabelle felt more mandatory than bringing much new stuff. A great addition, but she doesn't bring heavily new gameplay from what we can tell. Just a few extra bits that Villager doesn't have, like the Fishing Rod. This isn't a bad thing either. I was very disappointed that the Fishing Rod wasn't in, so it's still nice seeing the other stuff from AC, really.

 

[Deleted member]

He was going to remove Ness for Lucas, but development plans changed that. Lucas was going to be in Melee, but Mother 64(which became Mother 3 at some point) got canned.

He was going to do so in Brawl again, but then he learned Mother 3 isn't getting translated. So he kept both to please multiple fans.

He cut Lucas in the base Smash 4 roster.

As for AC, it could work with 1 or 2 characters. Isabelle felt more mandatory than bring much new stuff. A great addition, but she doesn't bring heavily new gameplay from what we can tell. Just a few extra bits that Villager doesn't have, like the Fishing Rod. This isn't a bad thing either. I was very disappointed that the Fishing Rod wasn't in, so it's still nice seeing the other stuff from AC, really.

And Sakurai didn’t work on the Mother series as much as he did with Kirby.

The Earthbound representation is probabky because of HAL Laboratory.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

> EarthBound / MOTHER = "old, forgotten niche JRPG"

See, that was your first mistake.

 

[ZoroCarlos]

Why would he separate franchises like that? It makes little sense. If we get Bandanna Waddle Dee, it's highly safe to assume he's coming with a Kirby stage. Assuming he's a Season Pass character(as we could get other characters separately).

Nothing says we can't have DLC other than the Season's Pass. Piranha Plant does not come with a stage(or music, though this isn't as made clear?), meaning that just getting stages separate is very possible.

This could in fact be how we get Minecraft representation.

Didn't the Nintendo Press site say for a while that Piranha Plant did come with a stage or was that a confirmed typo? Shame, that was my one shot at Bowser's Castle as a stage.

I wasn't really saying if the stage thing was likely, more of, if it was impossible. Don't hurt me.

 

[osby]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

But Mother isn't anime and Animal Crossing is too peaceful for Smash, therefore Sakurai bias only exists for Fire Emblem. Here's your completely objective counterargument.

 

[Opossum]

And Chrom was going to be. But he had no way to make him stand out at all. Robin got chosen because he/she had a better moveset. The 3 characters in Awakening are not all vastly unique as they could be. Which is why one stood out more than the other.

Besides that, Chrom had the bigger story focus. The Champions have equal story focus. That means Sakurai has literally no reason to look at one at any particular one as "more important". They solely have fan polls going for them at this point, really. (I realized how I didn't specify the story focus of why Chrom isn't in a similar situation the Champions, so... yeah).

This cannot be applied to the Champions who are all unique, but equal. Nobody stands out or is the "main character" in any way over the other. Besides that, the fact none of them are playable nor was there ever any reason to believe one would be playable over another puts them in a situation that makes it highly difficult to choose one over the other. None stands out in some significant way at all. All you can find are polls at best, and that isn't going to be enough of a reason on its own to get any in. I'm just sad they didn't get Assist Trophy roles, really.


The problem is you made a bad comparison to begin with. No Champions is the "main one". Fox is the main one. There is no equal importance. The only groups in a similar position to the Champions are 100% equal characters. A better example to look at is the 6 possible options in Final Fantasy 1. These are what the Champions are like(just playable). That's what they're meant to be. A group of 4. Not 1. Not 2. Not 3. 4.


And that has nothing to do with why Falco was chosen. He had the perfect body type, was not as important as Fox, and also had popularity. The Star Fox crew has always been a group that has changed cast members, with only Fox(or his similar counterparts) being the main character. The only one who almost would've been as close to Fox is Krystal, oddly enough, if she was playable in Adventures like she was meant to be. But she also has more focus in Command, so there's implications she was at some point meant to be the closest to his level of Main Character. That obviously changed.


In this case, Sakurai has never done this type of thing before in any way. When it came to a group of equal importance(which has yet to have any member playable in Smash, with technically the Awakening trio kind of counting, but that was a more unique situation too), the thing that's important is that one has to outright stand out from another. This does not apply to the Champions. They are all highly unique. We don't have a Chrom situation where he's too similar to Marth and Ike to be worth adding, which is why Robin got in instead. The only reason all 3 are in there is because Echoes was possible. That's literally it. If Echoes weren't a thing, it would only be Robin.

That means we'd need to have the Champions all playable at once for them to really stand a chance. Because none of them truly stick out compared to the other. They all have different archtypes, weapons, and abilities. None are promoted over the other. None are practically the same as a playable character in Smash either. They just don't have a remotely similar situation to any currently playable character. The're highly unlikely until they start treating the Champions as more than a group on 100% equal terms with no stand-out factors.

It still stands that in the end, Sakurai has made choices in the past. Ergo, if he wants a Champion, he'll put one in despite the other three existing. By making a million different exceptions to this, you're just moving the goalpost.

 

[FreeFox]

Well in that case since I brought up Bandanna Dee, what would a new Kirby stage for him in the hypothetical situation that he does make it. I was thinking "Sakurai Bias" and add Megaton Punch as a stage. But I would totally prefer something from like Robobot... or Lor Starcutter that'd be badass.

Maybe something for Star Allies? Its a recent switch game that got no representation.

 

[osby]

> EarthBound / MOTHER = "old, forgotten niche JRPG"

See, that was your first mistake.

You're right, we just got Delta Rune.

 

[Deleted member]

But Mother isn't anime and Animal Crossing is too peaceful for Smash, therefore Sakurai bias only exists for Fire Emblem. Here's your completely objective counterargument.

I feel like Sakurai doesn’t have a bias for Mother.
At least compared to Kirby.

 

[ZoroCarlos]

Maybe something for Star Allies? Its a recent switch game that got no representation.

Would make sense although I didn't get Star Allies so I have no idea what a proper stage from that would be.

 

[Flyboy]

Sakurai is biased because he hasn't added characters or stages that specifically appeal to me.

 

[Noipoi]

Would make sense although I didn't get Star Allies so I have no idea what a proper stage from that would be.

Perhaps the Jambastion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe something for Star Allies? Its a recent switch game that got no representation.

A Jambastion stage with the three mages as stage hazards. Boom, easy stage. Hire me Sakurai~

 

[Roberk]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

It’s not “anime”.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai is biased because he hasn't added characters or stages that specifically appeal to me.

Spoiler: And that bias hasn’t done anything good for the industry, or even the roster itself...

Oh, hello Megaman and Classic Pac-Man! I thought that you two were lost!

 

[MainJPW]

Having another Sonic rep would be nice, but what I really want is another Sonic stage. Specifically one that isn't a grassy early-game level, the only early-game level I'd really want now is Angel Island. But I'd rather a mechanical or metropolis kind of stage, to represent the other half of Sonic games, maybe something from Mania. Studiopolis would have been cool.

Studiopolis is my go-to but Windy Valley would be kinda cool with a Tornado act changing mechanic:

Start off in Act 1 "Windy Hill" then the tornado comes through and takes you inside which is Act 2 "Tornado", then it spits you out sky-high in Act 3 "The Air".

 

[Flyboy]

Well in that case since I brought up Bandanna Dee, what would a new Kirby stage for him in the hypothetical situation that he does make it. I was thinking "Sakurai Bias" and add Megaton Punch as a stage. But I would totally prefer something from like Robobot... or Lor Starcutter that'd be badass.

My immediate thought is Megaton Punch but my perfect stage would be the city from Planet Robobot that had the Waddle Dees in cars driving around because it would be cute. After a while the Haltmann Works Company could invade.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I would blame in that case HAL Laboratory and not Sakurai.
They worked on Smash Bros 64, Melee and Brawl, so they probably took the chance to support one of their properties.

Sakurai never worked on an FE game either. That doesn't stop people from making accusations of bias, although I suppose the narrative these days is "poor abused Sakurai was forced to add them by the bad men in suits" .

For the record, I wasn't actually calling Sakurai bias.

He was going to remove Ness for Lucas, but development plans changed that. Lucas was going to be in Melee, but Mother 64(which became Mother 3 at some point) got canned.

He was going to do so in Brawl again, but then he learned Mother 3 isn't getting translated. So he kept both to please multiple fans.

He cut Lucas in the base Smash 4 roster.

As for AC, it could work with 1 or 2 characters. Isabelle felt more mandatory than bring much new stuff. A great addition, but she doesn't bring heavily new gameplay from what we can tell. Just a few extra bits that Villager doesn't have, like the Fishing Rod. This isn't a bad thing either. I was very disappointed that the Fishing Rod wasn't in, so it's still nice seeing the other stuff from AC, really.

As if people who make accusations of Sakubais actually care that much about the actual circumstances of a character's inclusion, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining about Dark Pit.

> EarthBound / MOTHER = "old, forgotten niche JRPG"

See, that was your first mistake.

Was I wrong though? Not to throw shade at the Mother series, but it isn't exactly Nintendo's most profitable franchise.

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder that we got Megaman and Classic Pac-Man mostly because Sakurai demanded them and not for fan demand.

 

[LetterO]

I AM OCTAVIO CONFIRMED FELLAS LET'S GO

 

[T3Z3R1]

Why does no one bring up Mother when making accusations of Sakubias? Does some old, forgotten, niche JRPG trinity really "deserve" to have as many reps as Animal Crossing? I smell a lot of bias from the people who tend to accuse Sakurai of bias themselves.

Disclaimer: I don't actually mind that Earthbound has two "reps", I've always thought arguments of "deservingness" were a little silly.

>Mother
>old, forgetten, nich JRPG

Yeah, right! Without it, we wouldn't have Homestuck, Undertale, and Delta rune!

OH.
WAIT.

 

[Iridium]

Studiopolis is my go-to but Windy Valley would be kinda cool with a Tornado act changing mechanic:

Start off in Act 1 "Windy Hill" then the tornado comes through and takes you inside which is Act 2 "Tornado", then it spits you out sky-high in Act 3 "The Air".

Do you think Labyrinth Zone could work? It's also not just grassy terrain...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It still stands that in the end, Sakurai has made choices in the past. Ergo, if he wants a Champion, he'll put one in despite the other three existing. By making a million different exceptions to this, you're just moving the goalpost.

No, it really doesn't.

You're ignoring the blatant context.

Chrom was looked at because he had more story importance than Robin or Lucina. This is a key factor in why he was looked at in the first place. The Champions have equal story importance. This means it's an entirely different situation and still not remotely comparable. Context has always mattered and always will.

Does that mean a Champion is impossible? No. It just means that not a single one is more likely than the other realistically. It shouldn't surprise anyone if none are DLC at this point. He actually has reasons for choosing someone over another. Fan polls are seriously the only thing separating a Champion from another at this time. And whether that'll be enough is hard to say.

As if people who make accusations of Sakubais actually care that much about the actual circumstances of a character's inclusion, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining about Dark Pit.

Doesn't change that he never intended to have 2 Mother characters. It's a lucky circumstance.

 

[FreeFox]

Perhaps the Jambastion.

A Jambastion stage with the three mages as stage hazards. Boom, easy stage. Hire me Sakurai~

I like that idea. Hopefully, it would come with this song:

 

[ZephyrZ]

>Mother
>old, forgetten, nich JRPG

Yeah, right! Without it, we wouldn't have Homestuck, Undertale, and Delta rune!

OH.
WAIT.

It's what you call a cult classic. It doesn't have the most fans, but the fans it does have really love it.

I'll admit I did exaggerate a bit on the "forgotten" part, but when was the last major Mother series release?

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Series like Kirby (and Zelda) are actually underrepresented relative to their popularity. The only Sakurai bias towards Kirby seems to be that Kirby stuff is always prominent in the story modes, and the only Kirby stages, assists, items, and enemies are from games he directed. Realistically, we should have gotten Bandana Dee and maybe even Marx by now. And Zelda should have gotten a couple more too.

Also Chibi-Robo was robbed.

 

[Deleted member]

>Mother
>old, forgetten, nich JRPG

Yeah, right! Without it, we wouldn't have Homestuck, Undertale, and Delta rune!

OH.
WAIT.

i mean tbf sans is ness and the condesce is gigyas soooo

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Having another Sonic rep would be nice, but what I really want is another Sonic stage. Specifically one that isn't a grassy early-game level, the only early-game level I'd really want now is Angel Island. But I'd rather a mechanical or metropolis kind of stage, to represent the other half of Sonic games, maybe something from Mania. Studiopolis would have been cool.

I'm old school, so I'd love to see Chemical Plant from Sonic 2.
Ugh, how many times did I die in that bit where the water rose...

My absolute dream (well, one of them) is for Tails to come in as a Sonic semi-clone with Chemical Plant as a stage (featuring the original tracks for Chemical Plant and Casino Night).

 

[Iridium]

It's what you call a cult classic. It doesn't have the most fans, but the fans it does have really love it.

I'll admit I did exaggerate a bit on the "forgotten" part, but when was the last major Mother series release?

2006, if I recall correctly. It's been a long while for the series.

 

[Kawaki&Boruto98]

Can Spirits even possess Assist Trophies?

Anyway, I really doubt fighter pass DLC is going to consist of characters that will surprise people. I imagine they'd at least want to pick people would be familiar with. As much as I like Adeleine, I wouldn't hesitate before writing her chances off.

SMash 4 DLCs were really surprising though . Bayo? Cloud? Ryu? U expected them ? No...

 

[ZephyrZ]

Doesn't change that he never intended to have 2 Mother characters. It's a lucky circumstance.

I agree, but I'd also argue that FE having so many characters is also in part lucky circumstance.

 

[MainJPW]

Do you think Labyrinth Zone could work? It's also not just grassy terrain...

It could, but it would probably have competition with Hydro City Zone I would think.

 

[T3Z3R1]

i mean tbf sans is ness and the condesce is gigyas soooo

Umm....
Have you even look at Lord English and then compare him to gigyas? he's basically idiot with so much power

 

[Deleted member]

He brought Roy back in Smash 4 just because he saw a huge demand.

 

[osby]

No, it really doesn't.

You're ignoring the blatant context.

Chrom was looked at because he had more story importance than Robin or Lucina. This is a key factor in why he was looked at in the first place. The Champions have equal story importance. This means it's an entirely different situation and still not remotely comparable. Context has always mattered and always will.

Does that mean a Champion is impossible? No. It just means that not a single one is more likely than the other realistically. It shouldn't surprise anyone if none are DLC at this point. He actually has reasons for choosing someone over another. Fan polls are seriously the only thing separating a Champion from another at this time. And whether that'll be enough is hard to say.


Doesn't change that he never intended to have 2 Mother characters. It's a lucky circumstance.

Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus and Star Fox also had lucky circumstances but it didn't prevented fans from complaining about them.

For the record, I don't think Sakurai has more bias for Mother than, say, Punch-Out but it doesn't change that it got plenty of love for such a small series and everyone is okay with it.

 

[Rigumaro]

I'd love for the Champions to be in Smash Ultimate. But the thing is, I'd want them all, or none. I wouldn't be ok with just one.

Also, before E3, I thought Link would have an updated moveset, with up+b being Revali's gale (ending into Link paragliding, kinda like Peach's up+b), his shield looking like Daruk's protection (with Daruk's spirit showing up if you do a perfect shield), have one of his taunts be Mipha's grace (healing like 1-3%, but long animation and easily punishable), and his down smash being Urbosa's fury (the more you charge it, the bigger the radius).

And then when I saw Young Link was back, I thought it was a missed oportunity because they could have had both classic and new Link's movesets in the game.