Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[StormC]

When the Dreamcast came out I thought it was Sega's very late answer to the N64 and PS1. I didn't even know the Saturn existed.

That should say all about the failures of their post-Genesis efforts.

 

[Deleted member]

It was largely due to mismanagement by Sega. They rushed out the 32x and Saturn and gave neither one much support, not helped by surprise launching the Saturn and making retailers not informed of this surprise launch refuse to stock it. They then suddenly dropped the Saturn in favor of the Dreamcast, killing fan support by thinking they'd just drop another console if it failed instead of trying to support it like Nintendo did for the Wii U.

Also the Dreamcast got stomped into the ground by the PS2 that gen like every other console, which probably helped further the decision to go third party.

 

[lightdrago]

When did I say that?

Maybe I misinterpreted your post, but I thought you were implying Ryu wasn't an icon since Smash fans "move the goalpost a lot" as you put it.

now that i reread your post i realized i did read it wrong whoops

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The Katalina thing just proves my theory of how the Smash fanbase will always move around goalposts and defend whatever is in the game and try to justify it but anything not in it isn't "worthy"
"3rd parties need a history with Nintendo to be in. Oh Snake? The guy who most of his games are Sony exclusives? Well, you see, his game started on the NES and he has one GameCube game."
"3rd parties are only gaming icons, Snake was cut because the Pac-Man, Mega Man and Sonic trio is all that it needs. Oh Ryu? Well, you see, he's a fighting game icon so he can be in."
"3rd parties need a major game on a Nintendo console to be in. Oh Cloud? Well, you see, hus franchise has a deep history with Nintendo."
"3rd parties need to have a deep history with Nintendo to be in, even if that's outside of Nintendo consoles. Oh Bayonetta? You see, she's basically owned by Nintendo actually so she's not reall 3rd party."

Mark my words. Screenshot this. The same people saying Katalina makes no sense will be defending her inclusion if she gets announced.

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if fans throw their arms and give up when "irrelevant" characters from completely stone dead companies make it in. Sakurai messes with the fanbase's made-up rules for fun, and he knows it.

People who make fun of those whose wants are seemingly impossible are uncool.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Ryu isn't a fighting game icon? I always thought he was pretty well known.

Ryu is pretty much the face of fighting games tmk. He pretty much created the "magic karate man" archetype

 

[Opossum]

I get your point, but Ryu is literally Mr. Fighting Game.
He represents the entire friggin genre.
Yeah, he's kinda an icon.

He's, by and large, a gaming icon, and quite a large one at that.

I think Shish is lampooning the sheltered Nintendo fans who understate the value of non-Nintendo additions.

Like the folks who called Pac-Man an irrelevant has been and who said Geno is more iconic than Lara freaking Croft.

 

[Will]

Katalina is mostly a Japanese party fest, isnt it? Add to the fact that it's mobile gachapon, one of the more controversial genres, you will get people upset easily in the Western world because it's either a "literal who" or a rep from a bit of a gambling man's game.

However, this is assuming she's in the game at all.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

NiGHTS should get more support honestly. Extra points if Sakurai manages to get Reala as an echo fighter and Wizeman as a boss.

 

[Deleted member]

The Melee community is very...isolationist. Not to talk smack, they just seem very determined to keep playing Melee until they die.

 

[theromfather]

Bros... think about this: Master Hand is the boss of Smash games, smash characters are toys, character select screen is navigated using a hand to select a character. The hand uses the character to defeat the other toys, and then.....it uses the character to defeat it's other hand??? (Plus crazy hand??) This is Handy info to have

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

NiGHTS should get more support honestly. Extra points if Sakurai manages to get Reala as an echo fighter and Wizeman as a boss.

View attachment 175983

Y'know, if Iizuka gets his wish for making NiGHTS 3, this should be the perfect reasoning for NiGHTS as SEGA's third rep!

 

[Deleted member]

SEGA made F-Zero GX.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I just thought of something. The DLC Fighters pack reminds me heavily of the premise of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in which there are five golden tickets discovered by five lucky people, and whoever finds the tickets is invited. What if the DLC works the same way, where five random characters from different worlds each find a golden Smash ticket? The five characters then end up touring the factory, and in a process of elimination, there is one true winner. This needs to be a fanfic.

 

[CaptainCC]

Why did Sega go third-party and when did it happen? It's not something I've thought about too much, but I'm a little curious now.

Wow. This question makes me feel old. It feels like recent history to me, but I guess it was 20 years ago now. What. the. F. Circa 1999, the Dreamcast failed miserably, forcing them to abandon the console market because they had launched several other duds in the previous few years (Saturn, 32X, Sega CD) trying to stop the onslaught from Sony and Nintendo. Microsoft basically scooped up their marketshare.

 

[Will]

SEGA made F-Zero GX.

And they made F-Zero AX the arcade counterpart.
What about it?

 

[Deleted member]

I just thought of something. The DLC Fighters pack reminds me heavily of the premise of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in which there are five golden tickets discovered by five lucky people, and whoever finds the tickets is invited. What if the DLC works the same way, where five random characters from different worlds each find a golden Smash ticket? This needs to be a fanfic.

I could see that ending up better than Sonic High School.

By a mile.

 

[Luigi The President]

I miss Geno

 

[Deleted member]

Dont read this. Not really a best response.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 are in I think. He's talking about the stadium modes like Home-Run Contest, Target Smash, etc.

Just bring back break the targets for Stadium Mode with the home run derby, not the stupid angry bird thing and hey lets do some boarding platforms and racing to the finish as well.

 

[StormC]

When are we gonna get an Ouya rep, though?

 

[Deleted member]

I think Shish is lampooning the sheltered Nintendo fans who understate the value of non-Nintendo additions.

Like the folks who called Pac-Man an irrelevant has been and who said Geno is more iconic than Lara freaking Croft.

For me personally, I've never undervalued 3rd party additions. They're all big in their own ways.

I just personally prefer Smash give the top billing to Nintendo characters. Not because I think they're more "important" or some such silly nonsense, but because I've always enjoyed Smash as a celebration of Nintendo history. I just really like Nintendo's characters, and always love to see new ones make it in.

 

[Idon]

I miss Geno

BUT MY AIM'S GETTING BETTER.

 

[WaddleMatt]

I can see Marx happen over Bandana Waddle Dee

How on earth???

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I miss Geno

He still has a chance for DLC.

 

[theromfather]

I miss Geno

Me too....RIP to him he was sent to Star Road one last time thanks to the event that took place in World of Light

 

[Flyboy]

The Melee community is very...isolationist. Not to talk smack, they just seem very determined to keep playing Melee until they die.

It started to make sense when I compared it to different versions of games I enjoy. Like, Marvel vs. Capcom 3 exists but I'll still keep playing Marvel vs. Capcom 2 because I like the big roster and sprites and mechanics more. Or like, Soulcalibur 6 is cool and I'll be playing it a ton especially since 2B is in it, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to get rid of Soulcalibur 3 because I like how it plays more.

Different games for people looking for different experiences.

 

[Deleted member]

I got Crash, Spyro, Metroid, Medievil and maybe F-Zero back.

And this Friday we won’t have high school (we found that out today), so i won’t miss this Direct either...

Remember guys, i take the theory about me living next to a Leprechaun rainbow as a possible fact.

Just saying.

 

[Luigi The President]

He still has a chance for DLC.

He does not but thank you anyway

 

[Noipoi]

I miss Geno

Me too, lass.

I still think he could be dlc, but he's had his chances significantly lowered.

 

[Will]

The Melee community is very...isolationist. Not to talk smack, they just seem very determined to keep playing Melee until they die.

"Melee players don't shower" meme is always immortal.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Why did Sega go third-party and when did it happen? It's not something I've thought about too much, but I'm a little curious now.

company had to much inside conflict, Sega of America and Japan would compete and not even share assets with each other. sometimes SOA wont even publish japanese sega games out of spite. Yuji Naka was rumored to be heavily zenophobic towards western devs during sonic xtreme dev cycle. Its that and the failure of several of their consoles that led to it.

 

[StormC]

I think the rule of 1-2 third parties a game is perfectly fine. With a smaller roster, just Simon - one of the least controversial third party additions ever - works. More than that and I would start to get worried, but so far it's worked out. And no, I'm not counting echoes and neither should you. You know what I mean.

DLC is where things will get crazy, but eh, it's DLC, sort of a bonus more than anything.

 

[Diem]

And, y'know, I didn't hate ReCore. But I had way too high of expectations considering who was making it.

Post-"complete edition" expansion, it's actually a lovely game. But too little too late by then. I'm sure it didn't meet sales expectations in the slightest.

I bought ReCore on sale in December 2016, but I don't think I've touched it yet. But I guess that's for the best, since it apparently got some important additions post-launch, as you said, so I'll get to play it for the first time without it lacking anything.

But yeah, when the game is advertised as "From the creators of Metroid Prime, you expect better. Kind of like how Destiny is "From the creators of Halo," but a lot of people responsible for Halo's creation and continued development have left Bungie years ago for one reason or another.

For Japanese games, there's often one dictator at the lead of development (the director), and everyone basically just does what he says. Sakurai is one of the most extreme ones, to the point that he used to do the frame data for all the characters himself, video recorded himself acting out the characters in Subspace Emissary so the animators knew how to animate them, and is just generally a workaholic and perfectionist on his titles, though in Smash 4 and Ultimate he seems to have relaxed a little and let other members of the team take up some of those duties.

But for Western games, that's not usually the case. The work environment and expectations are different, so even if the director has a lot of control over the project (which is rare), often the other members of the team are still hugely responsible for some of the creative decisions for the game, so there's more of a sense of committee rather than a dictator being in control of everything.

Neither of these things are inherently good or bad. The Japanese style of development leads to some great games by some amazing visionaries, like Yoko Taro, but also some really terrible games, like Yoshio Sakamoto with Metroid: Other M. The Western style leads to many different minds collaborating to make something only that team of people in those circumstances could have made, like the Metroid Prime games, but sometimes it leads to games that are overdone by committee and seem to be trying to appeal to as broad of an audience as possible, rather than having a clear and unique vision, like Overwatch.

Sakurai's dictatorship over Smash has been both a good and a bad thing, too. I feel like a lot of his decisions with Smash 4 were not very wise (overdoing the Fire Emblem content, lack of good single player content, his explanation for Ridley, etc.), but his decisions for Smash Ultimate have been mostly very good (bringing back all the veterans, making a better and more unique single player experience, all the overall gameplay and quality of life improvements, designing Ridley and the other newcomers perfectly, etc.).

I feel like a Smash game without Sakurai would be a bit more of a committee effort with much less of the unique charm and quality he brings to his games. Characters would also probably be decided more by pure popularity and relevancy than on whatever he decides is a good idea, so we'd never get characters like Incineroar and Piranha Plant (which, depending on who you ask, is a good thing or a bad thing). I'm glad we're at least getting Ultimate under his guidance before the series gets rebooted under him or someone else.

Huh. Don't know how I ended up on this tangent. Oh well. Back to work.

 

[Deleted member]

Katalina is mostly a Japanese party fest, isnt it? Add to the fact that it's mobile gachapon, one of the more controversial genres, you will get people upset easily in the Western world because it's either a "literal who" or a rep from a bit of a gambling man's game.

However, this is assuming she's in the game at all.

You also have to add in Europe alongside the whole "list of countries", so that's pretty much 2/3rds of people who don't know Granblue.

Also before people try to bring this argument up, "Nintendo has stock in Cygames" is a pretty weak argument when Bandai Namco also has stock in Cygames, because y'know, THE iDOLM@STER Cinderella Girls > everything else over there.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

Not really. People already want Sora, and Kingdom Hearts coming to Switch would be the icing on the cake really. I can play Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 on the go?

That's what I'm arguing. I think people really do want Kingdom Hearts on the Switch.

I'm not arguing that they hate it.

What I'm saying is that Sora coming to Smash, but no switch of any Kingdom Hearts games when Nintendo fans have been left in the proverbial dust since 2012, would be heavily bitter sweet and send mixed messages.

And it's not like 3 can't get ported and optimized eventually. But I can get having to wait for that port if only to avoid delaying the game from release even further. Lol.

 

[GoeGoe]

My Gorgeous Stage, everyone.

Can any game beat this? XD

 

[Condenir]

I feel like Lara Croft is probably in the top 5 most iconic video game characters of all time...and I don’t see her getting into smash anytime soon. So obviously popularity, iconicness, and even moveset potential aren’t always a reason for characters to be good inclusions.

I think all of my favorites in smash are kind of the more obscure characters honestly..

 

[theromfather]

Is anybody else sad about the loss of instruction booklets with games these days? I remember being in elementary school and poring over the OG N64 Smash Bros instruction booklet appreciating the art and items and stuff and that fresh instruction booklet smell while I was in class because I couldn't play the game outside of my house and the booklet was that one piece of the game I could take with me on the go. The 90s were a simple time

 

[RyuhoFox]

As far as I am aware those that stick to Melee mainly still also play the new games. It's not like you can only play one game in the series and that's it. lol

 

[Kuon]

The Katalina thing just proves my theory of how the Smash fanbase will always move around goalposts and defend whatever is in the game and try to justify it but anything not in it isn't "worthy"
"3rd parties need a history with Nintendo to be in. Oh Snake? The guy who most of his games are Sony exclusives? Well, you see, his game started on the NES and he has one GameCube game."
"3rd parties are only gaming icons, Snake was cut because the Pac-Man, Mega Man and Sonic trio is all that it needs. Oh Ryu? Well, you see, he's a fighting game icon so he can be in."
"3rd parties need a major game on a Nintendo console to be in. Oh Cloud? Well, you see, hus franchise has a deep history with Nintendo."
"3rd parties need to have a deep history with Nintendo to be in, even if that's outside of Nintendo consoles. Oh Bayonetta? You see, she's basically owned by Nintendo actually so she's not reall 3rd party."

Mark my words. Screenshot this. The same people saying Katalina makes no sense will be defending her inclusion if she gets announced.

Katalina makes a lot more sense than people give her credit for, I think