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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Fatmanonice

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So, given the topic at hand (even though I don't really support the character at all) what do people think about Camilla from Fire Emblem Fates as a female villain? There's no FE axe user yet so that'd be something too I guess.
 

Polan

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That's not really how things at large corporations work.
That's exactly how things work in large corporations, especially game publishers. Development teams are fluid and are always expanding or contracting depending on the circumstances. And it's not like its super expensive to hire more people, especially when most of your prospective employees aren't unionized.

Sometimes, it's not about money or power, it's about time.
Well good thing modern game development is much more time efficient.

Smash 4 had Namco assisting Sakurai with balancing, a company well known for their fighting games like Tekken and Soul Calibur, and we still had characters who were heads above the rest like Diddy and Sheik while others like Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight floundered in the recesses of the lower tiers when the game was released. If even recruiting another company to help with development, a company of which that has years of fighting game experience under its belt, didn't deter balance issues, what says that expanding the development team would change a thing? Especially when the roster would be growing even more and likely adding even more changes to how it plays between games?
Basically what @Roger Smith said but also how difficult is it to balance Smash? Tekken and Soul Calibur characters have more complicated and technical movesets while characters in Smash are simpler (with a couple of exceptions). Plus Sakurai doesn't care about competitive play. It really shouldn't be too time consuming to balance characters in Smash.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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Can you imagine if the development team was as big as Breath of the Wild's? That would be the bomb! :eek:
My Lord, that would be amazing. If that were to be the case, could you imagine the story mode we’d get out of that? Huge. Subspace Emissary who?

I just hope we get another mode like Smash Run with more maps and online multiplayer.
 
D

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Except, Syurp never used a sword, nor a gun.
and Shiek has literally never done anything that she does in Smash (HW came after Smash so that game is not relevant)

The archetype she represents is enough to give her the tools and tropes that are associated with the pirate motif (just like Shiek takes cues from the Ninja archetype).

EDIT: Scratch that, her has used her special moves (teleport and transform) outside of Smash,this is what happens when i state stuff up my head and don't fact check.

However, everything else seems, to me at least, to be only inspired by the Ninja Archetype.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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and Shiek has literally never done anything that she does in Smash (HW came after Smash so that game is not relevant)
Except her Up B and Down B in Melee/Brawl. She does use a teleport by throwing down a deku nut just like in the game, and transforms into Zelda, just like in the game.
 

Opelucid

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I think Agent 8/Octoling will show up on the roster as an Inkling clone what do you guys think? Octo-Shot Replica and Octobrush could distinguish them from the regular Inkling.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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I think Agent 8/Octoling will show up on the roster as an Inkling clone what do you guys think? Octo-Shot Replica and Octobrush could distinguish them from the regular Inkling.
It really just depends on how long the expansion has been in development. It was just revealed, but it’s probably been being developed for awhile.

I wouldn’t be too terribly surprised or upset by Octolings being clones. Though I’d prefer them to just be alts.
 

Fatmanonice

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Except, Syurp never used a sword, nor a gun.
Fox and Captain Falcon didn't have fighting moves before Smash either. Ness and Lucas borrow moves from their teammates. Wii Fit, Villager, Duck Hunt, Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, Wario, Sheik, Pac-Man, etc were created using vague elements from their respective games. Zelda didn't really use offensive magic before Smash. There's a ton of examples of why this wouldn't be an issue.
 

Opossum

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So, given the topic at hand (even though I don't really support the character at all) what do people think about Camilla from Fire Emblem Fates as a female villain? There's no FE axe user yet so that'd be something too I guess.
My issue with that is that Camilla isn't a villain.
 

Troykv

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We need popular/famous/unique villains, not just villains for the sake of being villains.

And K. Rool is a good choice.
 
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BluePikmin11

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I think Agent 8/Octoling will show up on the roster as an Inkling clone what do you guys think? Octo-Shot Replica and Octobrush could distinguish them from the regular Inkling.
With Splatoon 2's Octo-Expansion Pack and their character popularity, I would not be surprised if they got in for 'bonus dessert' development.
 
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Fatmanonice

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I still say Ridley. Tons of fighting games have pulled off giant characters by using balancing factors. Hell, Dragon Ball Fighter Z just put in Broly and he's more than twice the size of most of the cast.
 

Pakky

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I realize that a ton of people here want K. Rool and Ridley (I do), but how would you guys feel if Dr. Eggman joined Smash?
I realize that it would be another character from the Sonic series and are there arguably better choices such as Tails and Knuckles. Honestly, though, seeing Eggman in his mech dueling it out with Bowser would be so awesome to see. Even more so than seeing Tails fight Luigi, imo. Is it just me that thinks this way?
I just brought it up since we are having this villain discussion.



Vs


 
D

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Again, why are people saying Mewtwo is a villain? It was not designed to have compassion, so you expect it to get compassion if it can not even do it? Mewtwo does evil things and good things. It does what it wants. Mewtwo benefits the heroes before. I say Mewtwo is not a villain, rather "it's own path" like :4darkpit:.
 
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Pakky

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Again, why are people saying Mewtwo is a villain? It was not designed to have compassion, so you expect it to be good? Mewtwo does evil things, and it does what it wants. Mewtwo benefits the heroes before. I say Mewtwo is not a villain, rather "his own path" like :4darkpit:.

Exactly and now :4darkpit: is like :4pit: Co-worker who works for the forces of nature.
 

CodeBlue_

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Gonna bite on this balance topic:

Smash has a lot of variables to consider that aren't present in other fighting games that makes it harder to balance:


First, and most strikingly:

It balances across two completely polarized modes of play. Other fighting games do not have to balance for the 4 player FFA insanity that is this game for most players. How do you even balance it? Not even competitive players have really looked at balance in a FFA setting (just meme level arguments about Ganondorf and Shulk, and maybe Olimar and Sheik being bad) and no other game (except from the broken mess that is PSABR) has tried this at this degree. Imagine being Bandai-Namco and trying to balance this game, with practically no game playing like it.

Second:

The game has a knockback system and increased freedom with aerial movement. You have to account for base knockback, knockback scaling, the angle a move sends you (and DI associated with it), horizontal and vertical recoveries, falling speed, horizontal aerial mobility and jump height, along with traditional fighting game attributes such as frame data, damage, range and mobility. This is only scraping the surface as there's a variety of character and stage specific mechanics they also have to consider.

Finally:

Sakurai makes characters that have bat-**** crazy designs. He literally balances on "extremes" with characters having some polarizing strengths and polarizing weaknesses. The characters that have one or the other (which is usually due to FFA being priority and not translating well with 1v1) turn out broken on either side of the spectrum. Regardless of what you feel about this style (I don't like it, but some people think it keeps everyone from being Mario lmao), it makes balancing really difficult because Sakurai has to avoid either side of broken (especially on the overpowered side).

I think balancing a cast beyond 75 or so characters is going to be rough, so I don't know what will happen if it gets to that point with this game. Cuts will definitely need to be considered after this Smash title, but could happen with Smash Switch. It all depends on how much time they have. Smash 4 without patches actually has a large number of really poorly balanced characters (almost to the degree of Brawl), so I do have concerns even if Smash 3DS isn't going to be a time succubus this time around.

:kirby:
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Again, why are people saying Mewtwo is a villain? It was not designed to have compassion, so you expect it to be good? Mewtwo does evil things, and it does what it wants. Mewtwo benefits the heroes before. I say Mewtwo is not a villain, rather "his own path" like :4darkpit:.
Mewtwo only had a villain role in the first Pokemon movie, and then became a neutral force/hero since then in the anime canon.

He's only barely a villain for a short time. He's not a villain Smash by any means. In fact, the only time we see villains are at best Giga Bowser during Adventure Mode, temporary ones with Bowser, Ganondorf, and Wario in Brawl's SSE(and they decided to help the heroes against Tabuu), and Tabuu himself. Wario hasn't had a heroic portrayal in Smash, legitimately speaking, but he's not a villain otherwise. Really, at best only Bowser and Ganondorf are proper villains while the rest have too many heroic roles to play otherwise.
 

Fatmanonice

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One idea I've seen pitched about an ARMs character is to just to make them like Bowser Jr: have each ALT be a different character but all have the same moveset. I think they could actually pull something like that off. If they were going to go with the standard 8, my picks would be: Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min Min, Ninjara, Twintelle, Helix, Max Brass, and Dr. Coyle.
 
D

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You know if they make the next Subspace, there has to be a question.
Why is the fight between every character continuing? It all started when Mario kicked Yoshi in that 64 commercial. Did it escalate and become a gladiator like area? You can hear the crowd clap and cheer. Is there a meaningful purpose? Thoughts?
Mewtwo only had a villain role in the first Pokemon movie, and then became a neutral force/hero since then in the anime canon.

He's only barely a villain for a short time. He's not a villain Smash by any means. In fact, the only time we see villains are at best Giga Bowser during Adventure Mode, temporary ones with Bowser, Ganondorf, and Wario in Brawl's SSE(and they decided to help the heroes against Tabuu), and Tabuu himself. Wario hasn't had a heroic portrayal in Smash, legitimately speaking, but he's not a villain otherwise. Really, at best only Bowser and Ganondorf are proper villains while the rest have too many heroic roles to play otherwise.
Good point.

I know BJ could be forced by his father to do villanous work, but can BJ is considered a villain.
I think Bowser, Ganondorf and Bowser Junior are the only villains.
Wario, Dedede and Meta Knight are more like rivals than villains.
 
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Lyndis_

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I think adding K Rool and Medusa would be nice as a way to pad out the villain reps
I also personally suggest adding Black Shadow and giving him Ganondorf's moveset, so we can finally have Ganondorf as a unique character with no worries.

Villains and anti-heroes are definitely what I want to see the most from the Smash Switch roster.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Good point.

I know BJ could be forced by his father to do villanous work, but can BJ is considered a villain.
I think Bowser, Ganondorf and Bowser Junior are the only villains.
Wario, Dedede and Meta Knight are more like rivals than villains.
Well, I was more mentioning Story Mode itself. But yes, Bowser Jr. too is still a villain. Probably why he slipped my mind. Whoops.
 

Arcanir

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Basically what @Roger Smith said but also how difficult is it to balance Smash? Tekken and Soul Calibur characters have more complicated and technical movesets while characters in Smash are simpler (with a couple of exceptions).
Sakurai says he considers multiple playstyles, which include: Balancing the entire roster against each other, balancing for each of the different modes of the game (ex. Single, Double, 8 Player), balancing them with features like items, balancing them in accordance to single player modes, balancing so each character feels unique, etc.

Regardless of whether the game is as complex as Tekken or not, it still doesn't change the fact that there are multiple things to consider when creating a character and putting them into the game. You can't just throw in a character and expect them to not cause problems, you have to consider how they interact in the game and adjust accordingly, and that takes time. Sakurai said that it takes over a year to make a character, and balancing is one of the reasons for that.

Plus Sakurai doesn't care about competitive play.
If he didn't, he wouldn't have brought in more people to help with balancing, he wouldn't have done patches outside of addressing necessary glitches, he wouldn't have added things that only the competitive community cares about such as the shield patch, he wouldn't have added For Glory, and so on.

Just because it's not the only thing he considers doesn't mean he ignores it. He recognizes it as a way fans like to play the game and has addressed it as such. Even if that was the case and he didn't care, as I mentioned above there are also many other ways to play the game that he does consider when balancing as well, so you can't just say 'well that's just competitive' here.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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K. Rool would be my first choice for a villain newcomer. Ridley would complete things further, but I simply can't see him happening based on what we know.

I'm actually quite surprised, I've been seeing a fair amount of optimism for Ridley's chances this time around.
 
D

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Villains
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4dedede::4darkpit::4ganondorf::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4wario2::4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig::4dk:
Girls
:4bayonetta::4corrinf::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4miif::4palutena::4peach::4robinf::rosalina::4samus::4sheik::4villagerf::4wiifit::4zelda::4zss::4wendy:

Doesn't seem very lacking to me.
The only ones on your list that are inarguably villains are Bowser, Bowser Jr., and Ganondorf. Even King Dedede is a stretch because often times he plays the anti-hero role or otherwise plays a villainous role because he gets possessed. Mewtwo isn't a villain at all, he just happens to dislikes humans and there are no truly villainous Pokémon in the universe. If you're going to argue that everyone that has played an antagonistic role is a villain, where is Mario when he kidnapped DK in Donkey Kong Jr.?

I'm not counting the Koopalings because it's clear you padded your list to make your argument look more valid so you listed characters that were alternate costumes of Bowser Jr.

Lastly, even if we agreed with you, that doesn't mean King K. Rool and Ridley aren't the two biggest omissions that should get in regardless of the assumption that we've filled a fictional villain quota.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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Gonna bite on this balance topic:

Smash has a lot of variables to consider that aren't present in other fighting games that makes it harder to balance:


First, and most strikingly:

It balances across two completely polarized modes of play. Other fighting games do not have to balance for the 4 player FFA insanity that is this game for most players. How do you even balance it? Not even competitive players have really looked at balance in a FFA setting (just meme level arguments about Ganondorf and Shulk, and maybe Olimar and Sheik being bad) and no other game (except from the broken mess that is PSABR) has tried this at this degree. Imagine being Bandai-Namco and trying to balance this game, with practically no game playing like it.

Second:

The game has a knockback system and increased freedom with aerial movement. You have to account for base knockback, knockback scaling, the angle a move sends you (and DI associated with it), horizontal and vertical recoveries, falling speed, horizontal aerial mobility and jump height, along with traditional fighting game attributes such as frame data, damage, range and mobility. This is only scraping the surface as there's a variety of character and stage specific mechanics they also have to consider.

Finally:

Sakurai makes characters that have bat-**** crazy designs. He literally balances on "extremes" with characters having some polarizing strengths and polarizing weaknesses. The characters that have one or the other (which is usually due to FFA being priority and not translating well with 1v1) turn out broken on either side of the spectrum. Regardless of what you feel about this style (I don't like it, but some people think it keeps everyone from being Mario lmao), it makes balancing really difficult because Sakurai has to avoid either side of broken (especially on the overpowered side).

I think balancing a cast beyond 75 or so characters is going to be rough, so I don't know what will happen if it gets to that point with this game. Cuts will definitely need to be considered after this Smash title, but could happen with Smash Switch. It all depends on how much time they have. Smash 4 without patches actually has a large number of really poorly balanced characters (almost to the degree of Brawl), so I do have concerns even if Smash 3DS isn't going to be a time succubus this time around.

:kirby:
Rough, but not impossible. Another thing that comes along with Smash besides newcomers and cuts, are balance patches.

A little tweaking here and there after the final product has been released to the public.

I just don’t understand what you think this game will be. All of us are in the dark here.

A roster reset that drastically cuts the roster, while it may improve quality of the character, would enrage so many people. Especially if characters they liked were removed.

Having no cuts, and a few, 5-8 newcomers, does not make a new game. It’d be marketed as one, but be a deluxe port. That’s cheap. It’s a cop out. That too would enrage people.

I know at some point Smash will have to take a hit in the roster. I don’t see Smash V as being that time. Especially with so many potential newcomers coming down the pipeline.

Would it be difficult? Yes, I agree. But it’s not impossible. And if we know anything about Masahiro Sakurai is; he pushes himself to his breaking point, and he loves cramming as much content as he can into these games.
 

Lyndis_

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Even King Dedede is a stretch because often times he plays the anti-hero role or otherwise plays a villainous role because he gets possessed.
Him being villain is the outlier pretty much. It's literally just the first game and the Spring Breeze remake of it in Super Star/Ultra AAIK.

Even then, it was just him being greedy and taking all the food because he decided he could as the king of dreamland. He never tried it again, and I think all of his good deeds since then definitely outweigh it. I'd say he's an anti-hero, but he's not even really, he's more of just a 'good guy' now.
 
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Mechonis

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I realize that a ton of people here want K. Rool and Ridley (I do), but how would you guys feel if Dr. Eggman joined Smash?
I realize that it would be another character from the Sonic series and are there arguably better choices such as Tails and Knuckles. Honestly, though, seeing Eggman in his mech dueling it out with Bowser would be so awesome to see. Even more so than seeing Tails fight Luigi, imo. Is it just me that thinks this way?
I just brought it up since we are having this villain discussion.
I'd be alright with seeing him make it in. I could have sworn I read somewhere that Eggman was originally supposed to be the main character of Sonic games, but he was later put into the villain role after losing out to the blue hedgehog in popularity or something along those lines. I'll have to find out where I read about that again.

Having him in Smash would be pretty cool I think.

Edit: I found out he was supposed to be the companies new mascot, competing against Mario and such, but Sonic won out in the end. They have it on his wiki page, along with the sources.
 
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Danpal65

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Okay, first thing. Can we all promise not to refer to Bowser Jr. as BJ?

Second, I think Ridley and K.Rool would be excellent additions to the roster and add to the number of villains. I also like the idea of turning current Ganondorf into Black Shadow and giving him an actual move set. This would give us yet another villain and solve the whole Ganon clone problem.
 

Pakky

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Dr. Cyole, please!!!!

There aren't many female villains in Nintendo history I don't think.

and not all ARMS character are the same.

And of course, I'm all in for King K Rool and Ridely
 
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CodeBlue_

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Rough, but not impossible. Another thing that comes along with Smash besides newcomers and cuts, are balance patches.

A little tweaking here and there after the final product has been released to the public.

I just don’t understand what you think this game will be. All of us are in the dark here.

A roster reset that drastically cuts the roster, while it may improve quality of the character, would enrage so many people. Especially if characters they liked were removed.

Having no cuts, and a few, 5-8 newcomers, does not make a new game. It’d be marketed as one, but be a deluxe port. That’s cheap. It’s a cop out. That too would enrage people.

I know at some point Smash will have to take a hit in the roster. I don’t see Smash V as being that time. Especially with so many potential newcomers coming down the pipeline.

Would it be difficult? Yes, I agree. But it’s not impossible. And if we know anything about Masahiro Sakurai is; he pushes himself to his breaking point, and he loves cramming as much content as he can into these games.
A 75 character roster would still be about twenty newcomers (or eighteen if wolf and ice climbers return) for the game. I'm just saying an 80+ is insane (honestly 70+ is kind of pushing it too). Some veterans are most likely going to be neglected or other aspects of the game are going to be cut or ported straight from Smash 4. I also don't agree with Sakurai straining himself so much, especially after what happened with Smash 4 and his health. Ultimately that is his decision in the end, though.

:kirby:
 

Senselessbreak

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I can definitely see an Octoling as a clone and would welcome it myself.
If we are stuck to 8 alts per character, then you can count out Octolings, since we already have male and female alts to add as many memorable variations as they can (Mostly the amiibo looks and maybe agent 8)
 

Burruni

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A 75 character roster would still be about twenty newcomers (or eighteen if wolf and ice climbers return) for the game. I'm just saying an 80+ is insane (honestly 70+ is kind of pushing it too). Some veterans are most likely going to be neglected or other aspects of the game are going to be cut or ported straight from Smash 4. I also don't agree with Sakurai straining himself so much, especially after what happened with Smash 4 and his health. Ultimately that is his decision in the end, though.

:kirby:
We're at 58.
It's a 17 character jump, 15 if Icies and Wolf return.
Which honestly, might be around what we're looking at.
64->Melee was rushed to all hell and padded itself to 14 newcomers.
Brawl had 18 or 17 depending on your opinion on :younglinkmelee::toonlink:
And then base game Smash 4 had 17 iirc.
 

Senselessbreak

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We're at 58.
It's a 17 character jump, 15 if Icies and Wolf return.
Which honestly, might be around what we're looking at.
64->Melee was rushed to all hell and padded itself to 14 newcomers.
Brawl had 18 or 17 depending on your opinion on :younglinkmelee::toonlink:
And then base game Smash 4 had 17 iirc.
I imagine 75 is the magic number. I'm in team half port so I don't think any characters are getting cut.
So 58+
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Toad or Waluigi
Dixie or K Rool
Sylux or Ridley
Rex
Springman
Inklings
New Pokemon
New FE
2 Retros/WTFs
2 easy clones
3 third parties
=
75

Thats our roster boys.
 
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GaroMaster

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When it comes to villain newcomers, K. Rool really should be in. Wolf being added back in would be sweet, too.
I know people hate the idea of a 4th KI rep (assuming Dark Pit makes the cut again), but Hades is an awesome villain. He may lack the star power of K. Rool and Ridley as well as lacking relevance, but Hades' personality would be hilarious to see in Smash.
There are a lot of villains to choose from, but they're either one offs such as Skull Kid or their size doesn't translate well to Smash.
 

Burruni

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I imagine 75 is the magic number. I'm in team half port so I don't think any characters are getting cut.
So 58+
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Toad or Waluigi
Dixie or K Rool
Sylux or Ridley
Rex
Springman
Inklings
New Pokemon
New FE
2 Retros/WTFs
2 easy clones
3 third parties
=
75

Thats our roster boys.
Waluigi
K.Rool
Screw you, Metroid, Bandana Dee
I feel like Dixie and Ribbon Girl might be some of our later development clones. Given ARMS characters attack the same (mostly) and just have their passives as differences, and Dixie could end up in a Wolf situation, mixing DK and Diddy things.
Also :sonic::snake::4pacman::4megaman: 2 Launch 3rd Parties per game. Cresh & Heihachi for arguments sake.

Edit:
When it comes to villain newcomers, K. Rool really should be in. Wolf being added back in would be sweet, too.
I know people hate the idea of a 4th KI rep (assuming Dark Pit makes the cut again), but Hades is an awesome villain. He may lack the star power of K. Rool and Ridley as well as lacking relevance, but Hades' personality would be hilarious to see in Smash.
There are a lot of villains to choose from, but they're either one offs such as Skull Kid or their size doesn't translate well to Smash.
Most of Hades's characterization that makes him beloved is an English-exclusive thing due to localization freedom. He's far less of a factor in Japan (and Sakurai's "intended" version of the character).
 
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Scoliosis Jones

Kept you waiting, huh?
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Good news everyone! I GOT ROSTER MAKER ON MAC.

I'll be looking to upload a roster of my very own sooner or later. I've been obsessed with it almost all night. Still trying to work out the kinks, and actually added characters I never thought I would add.

BTW Opossum Opossum could you share some of your ideas for Celica? Last time I read your ideas for her I was interested, but I'm forgetting some of the specifics!
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Villain talk, eh?

K. Rool and Kamek would be my personal picks. Marx and Ridley would be cool to have on the roster as well. Depending on how you count him, Waluigi would be another pick of mine.
 
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