Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Morbi]

Another question choice. Would you want something like MKX's Variations, SFV's V-System, & IJ2's Gear System?


You mean, "Nintendoland?"(It did worse than 1-2-Switch, sales wise.)

I would if I did not already witness the complete and utter failure that was custom moves. I just say, let them balance the base game. Clones can more or less fulfill that purpose.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

You mean like with Marvel vs Capcom Infinite?

This just in Sakurai to cut all Pokemon characters because Pokemon Company goes ''Nope."

 

[Fatmanonice]

Do you guys/girls think that the FE Heroes's choosen characters can influence the Fire Emblem representation in Smash?

Hard to say. Fire Emblem is a lot like Pokemon in the sense that its most popular characters usually don't fall out of fashion unless they're totally outclassed by another, similar character. This is why Hector and Lyn are still goofy popular 16 years later despite their game not having a proper remake yet. Same could be said about Ike. Either way, it's pretty obvious that we're going to get at least one new character that represents the latest game (probably the heavily rumored/inevitable FE13 for the Switch) at the very least.

 

[N3ON]

If you're one of those people who believes they're at the bottom of the barrel? You're wrong.

They're barely even mid-way down the barrel, bud.

Isaac's down at the bottom, btw.

Just because a character isn't recent or likely, doesn't mean they're not notable.

Imagine Smash didn't prioritize one time period above all others, and then reconsider what a bottom-of-the-barrel choice is. How is a character from a series with performance equal to or greater than that of series currently on the roster an inferior choice by any metric other than that of recency? And why should recency dictate what makes for a good choice not for the company, but the fans. Timing shouldn't play some key role to the fans - they want the likes of K. Rool, Takamaru and Geno (and if we weren't all conditioned by Smash, we'd want a lot more than that - Skull Kid, Midna, Lyn, Krystal, etc) - the accomplishments should.

You've let Smash's agenda become your own.

 

[Arcanir]

I'm more of a fan of quality over quantity in that regards. The problem with massive rosters you have a large risk of either poorly implementation characters, overpowered characters, excessive cloning, or buggy development process. The only way to avoid that would be to extend development time far beyond what would be considered reasonable.

I think people overestimate what Sakurai and his team is actually functionally capable of while maintain a good level of quality. It is unlikely to be a 80 character roster where all 58 characters from Smash 4 are kept with a whole slew of new characters a the same time. People were making similar large scale assumptions about Smash 4 as well and it didn't pan out then either. Smash 4 was a good roster, but there were a lot of people making claims to the same 70-80 character rosters back then too.

It's fine to dream and hope for such a thing. I think people are setting themselves for disappointment by doing so though.

I do think balancing is an issue that should be considered. Even Smash 4, which is commonly stated to the most balanced game in the franchise, had a number of imbalanced characters when it started out (remember poor pre-patch Marth/Lucina? Or the infamous Hoo-Hah?). 70+ characters would be even more difficult to balance and even porting over resources wouldn't change that since there are still imbalances to be addressed within Smash 4 itself, and that's ignoring the possibility that Sakurai decides to revamp any movesets like he did with Bowser, which would throw things off even more.

It's not impossible, but the amount of work that may have to go into making and balancing a roster of that size with a limited amount of time may make it more unfeasible then we give it credit for.

What's with the hostility?

If there are six pokemon in this new game then fine if there are more that's fine too.

I'm just saying based on the outcomes of what rosters ended up being and what's been available for purchase to add to those rosters '6' has been the magic number twice now.

Will they stick to that? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm no expert, and this my be a case of 'MUH PATTERNS' but as far as things go barring gen 1 every even numbered genration of pokemon gets a rep.

Gen 2

Gen 4

Gen 6

Based on this and the game's release and how Greninja was devised for the Smash4 Gen 8 is getting a rep, no doubt.

Now I don't know what Pokemon's plans are for Megas but as things are Lucario to me seems to be losing footing because he's not really used as a pull for much anymore. This might be subjective but yeah. That could be wrong but beyond Pokken I'm not seeing a whole lot. Battle Bond, on the other hand, could end up being a thing that they start doing to take the place of Megas seeing as how the two are very similar. Also perhaps the gen 8 guy added will be a Grass Starter or a general rare 'cool guy' like Lucario

Lucario was in I Choose You, which was a big movie for Pokémon since it celebrated its 20th, went in a different direction from other movies, and was a success relative to most of the recent movies that came out over the BW and XY generations. Even ignoring that, it still works its way into notable appearances here and there such as being a part of Gladion's team, being in Pokken, and so on.

It really hasn't lost that much ground in recent years, it's still a pretty relevant Pokémon even three generations past its initial debut.

 

[Deleted member]

This just in Sakurai to cut all Pokemon characters because Pokemon Company goes ''Nope."

"No one remembers Pokemon." - Sakurai

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This just in Sakurai to cut all Pokemon characters because Pokemon Company goes ''Nope."

"If you were to actually think about it, these characters are just functions. They're just doing things. Pikachu, case and point, is a favorite because he's really fast and has great mobility, right? So our more technical players, all they want to do is short hop and that kind of stuff. Well guess what, the Mii Brawler can do the same thing, Captain Falcon can do the same thing. Lucina can do the same thing. Go ahead and try them out."

 

[Polan]

I do think balancing is an issue that should be considered. Even Smash 4, which is commonly stated to the most balanced game in the franchise, had a number of imbalanced characters when it started out (remember poor pre-patch Marth/Lucina? Or the infamous Hoo-Hah?). 70+ characters would be even more difficult to balance and even porting over resources wouldn't change that since there are still imbalances to be addressed within Smash 4 itself, and that's ignoring the possibility that Sakurai decides to revamp any movesets like he did with Bowser, which would throw things off even more.

It's not impossible, but the amount of work that may have to go into making and balancing a roster of that size with a limited amount of time may make it more unfeasible then we give it credit for.

Nintendo can just expand the size of the development team to help keep up with balancing. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that a large roster will be a problem for a billion dollar company like Nintendo.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

ugh no. the "game as a service" model needs to f*ck off and die already. it's already turned many good games into microtransaction/lootbox ridden messes. keep it away from smash please.

Nintendo has been notorious for not being ****ty with DLC as of late though, so if this does happen with Smash 5 then I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Morbi]

Nintendo can just expand the size of the development team to help keep up with balancing. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that a large roster will be a problem for a billion dollar company like Nintendo.

Mostly because of Sakurai whining and complaining about it just about every chance he gets.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

of course they would need to justificate the intial lack of content if they go in that direction, but we can look that the games are suffering in content and quality because the dev time that the roster needs is increasing each time, like we lost character unique modes, the story mode(both adventure mode, and subspace), more music is being copypasted, same with stages, and trophies, worse modes in terms of diversity(smash orders,smash target,smash tour,etc), even the characters that arent new are suffering,like in terms of alt,moveset,customs,etc; i dont know if that is justificable for only 10-15 new characters, even the balances suffers and we need to wait like 2 years before game is aceptable balance wise.

For the people that says that nintendo wouldn't do that, they already do that with splatoon 1, 2 and ARMS, hell even kirby is getting free DLC, i dont saying that the next game need to be barebones, or that they not add newcomers, but i think that this type of game would benefit the game in the long run, no, they not need to add lootboxes or microtransactions.

 

[Lyndis_]

I couldn't really see myself playing a Smash game with 30 characters or less after Brawl and Sm4sh.

If that makes me a heretic, I'm sorry, but characters are really the main draw of Smash for me. I honestly don't see any benefit, I'd most likely just go back to playing Sm4sh and PM instead.

 

[DraginHikari]

Nintendo can just expand the size of the development team to help keep up with balancing. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that a large roster will be a problem for a billion dollar company like Nintendo.

That's not really how things at large corporations work.

 

[Ura]

Yet IGN (or was it another site?) just did a "most wanted Switch games" with 4k votes and Golden Sun placed 16th (with Smash Bros placing 1st).

Actually if you look at the poll Golden Sun is the top franchise without a playable character in Smash.



The polls back in 2014 were done in many sites, at least 5 different ones I used to visit all had polls with Isaac being in the top 5-10 most wanted DLC chars that were not veterans. Even Pushdustin's Japanese poll had Isaac as a top contender.

Most people who voted in Sakurai's poll are Smash fans, because they had to somehow know of the poll and it's location. So having polls from 5 of the most used Smash sites is actually a good chunk of data to determine how the ballot sort of went.


Edit: PS: "Not relevant". Yet placed as the most wanted franchise (that isn't in Smash) to get a game in the Switch by Nintendo fans (not Smash fans) in a poll.

What you're thinking of is a poll done on rNintendoSwitch by user seeyoshirun. It was done by something close to 4,000 users which while still a large amount, it's very small in comparison to the Switch user base.

And no the top franchise on that poll without a representative is Advance Wars which placed 6th on that list (technically Top 5 because Smash has been confirmed). That being said Golden Sun's placement on there is still really impressive at 16th. Hopefully that means good news for both the Advance Wars and Golden Sun series because I want both to return and succeed.

Again, those polls don't speak to the majority of people who play Smash Bros. As much as i'd like to think otherwise and think that Isaac has a huge chance of making it in the game we all have to look at it objectively.

I suppose we can hope he did well on the Ballot but even then he still has some things working against him.

This. More reasons why this would be an absolutely disastrous decision for Nintendo:

-Nintendo has already made it apparent that this going to be at least one of their big Holiday games.
-Nintendo has already made it apparent that this was going to be the game that they sell people on their new online service on.
-The first SSB5 trailer had no less than 12 characters in it, with some people arguing as much as 16, meaning as much as half the cast has already been teased at.
-Nintendo's having this game up front and center at E3 this year and nothing would utterly deflate the hype like up to 70% of SSB4's roster getting nuked.

Exactly for all the reasons you mentioned. I can't imagine them showing off a reveal trailer like that and then turning around and saying "sorry we only have 30 characters in the final roster". It's completely wack.

 

[Morbi]

I couldn't really see myself playing a Smash game with 30 characters or less after Brawl and Sm4sh.

If that makes me a heretic, I'm sorry, but characters are really the main draw of Smash for me. I honestly don't see any benefit, I'd most likely just go back to playing Sm4sh and PM instead.

For me, personally, there are about 5-6 characters I play from both Smash 64 and Melee respectively, after that, just two each from Brawl (Snake and Wolf, obviously they never came back) and Little Mac plus Rosalina.

So, I guess my point is, I am only expecting to enjoy Inklings and Spring Man if this trend continues, so the roster size is irrelevant to me. It is nice to try them out and have some fun now and again. But even then, most of the characters I have fun with are still from 64-Melee.

And while I could and do go back, I still look forward to all of the other content that comes with a new release. The roster is absolutely important, but if they upped the ante on other elements, I could easily forgive a smaller roster.

 

[Arcanir]

Nintendo can just expand the size of the development team to help keep up with balancing. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that a large roster will be a problem for a billion dollar company like Nintendo.

Smash 4 had Namco assisting Sakurai with balancing, a company well known for their fighting games like Tekken and Soul Calibur, and we still had characters who were heads above the rest like Diddy and Sheik while others like Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight floundered in the recesses of the lower tiers when the game was released. If even recruiting another company to help with development, a company of which that has years of fighting game experience under its belt, didn't deter balance issues, what says that expanding the development team would change a thing? Especially when the roster would be growing even more and likely adding even more changes to how it plays between games?

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Nintendo can just expand the size of the development team to help keep up with balancing. I'm not sure why people keep thinking that a large roster will be a problem for a billion dollar company like Nintendo.

Sometimes, it's not about money or power, it's about time.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

To be fair. Balancing a game of this nature is a little different than balancing say Tekken, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, etc.

Those are designed as serious fighting games.

Smash is a party crossover fighter game.

Balance kinda comes second to just how zany you can make it. I doubt the majority of people who play Smash casually even notice anything different about the balance between the huge roster when you've already got items and stage hazards that turn the tide of balance anyways.

And before someone says ''But competitive." Well, yes, but in this series competitive has always come second and most likely always will even if Sakurai were to retire as director of the franchise. It's not designed with the competition in mind.

 

[Lyndis_]

I definitely think the roster will become a problem...

...eventually, as in, post-Switch eventually. It's a problem for another time, really.

I originally believed Smash Switch would be a port (a while before it was even revealed to be a thing) because of the large roster, but I've since reassessed and I don't think it's too ridiculous now.

It will likely not be until next gen the roster becomes a problem, but I think it will be a problem since after 80. It becomes a bit ridiculous and probably virtually impossible to balance and keep fresh at that point unless Nintendo has some kind of magic stashed away in their basement for that occasion we don't know about, lol.

 

[Onua]

Just for fun lets talk about what if Medusa gets in?
> Shes a main nintendo villain
> Shes one of the only main nintendo villains that is a girl
> Shes on of the main 3 chars from the original Kid Icarus

I feel smash lacks true villain chars and girl reps. Medusa would help both.

 

[Lyndis_]

I don't really care for Medusa, honestly. Hades is just way more interesting and fun to me. I feel like Medusa would be a fairly boring character personality wise.



If Wario was Wario Land instead of WarioWare I'd say Captain Syrup makes sense.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Personally I think we're reaching roster problems when the roster count hits the 100-110 range. Don't think we'll need to worry about it for awhile tbh

 

[GaroMaster]

I definitely think the roster will become a problem...

...eventually, as in, post-Switch eventually. It's a problem for another time, really.

I originally believed Smash Switch would be a port (a while before it was even revealed to be a thing) because of the large roster, but I've since reassessed and I don't think it's too ridiculous now.

It will likely not be until next gen the roster becomes a problem, but I think it will be a problem since after 80 it becomes a bit ridiculous.

This problem could be compounded by the fact that the wait from Smash 5 to Smash 6 could very well be the longest that we experience, especially if Nintendo is intending for the Switch to last for another 7-10 years.
By the time Smash 6 rolls around, there will be so many characters that come out of the Switch era that it won't be long before Smash has a CSS straight out of MUGEN.

 

[PeridotGX]

Just for fun lets talk about what if Medusa gets in?
> Shes a main nintendo villain
> Shes one of the only main nintendo villains that is a girl
> Shes on of the main 3 chars from the original Kid Icarus

I feel smash lacks true villain chars and girl reps. Medusa would help both.

I don't see it happening. 3 plus a clone is ridiculus for a small 3 game series. And I'm 90% that a 4th KI character would be Viridi, but there are literal dozens of characters that I see as more likely then her.

 

[Ghirahilda]

People talk about balance thinking only on 1vs1 matches and sometimes totally forget that Smash tries to balance characters not only for 1vs1 but also for Free-for-alls and both ways have a precipice of distance in gameplay style

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I feel smash lacks true villain chars and girl reps.

Villains

Girls


Doesn't seem very lacking to me.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Villains

Girls

Dedede, Meta Knight, Dark Pit, Wario, Donkey Kong are all either anti-heroes or straight up heroes (Donkey Kong).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Dedede, Meta Knight, Dark Pit, Wario, Donkey Kong are all either anti-heroes or straight up heroes (Donkey Kong).

Jesus christ, are we really gonna do this again? They've all made at least one appearance as a bad guy. That's what I'm saying. I'm not gonna geek debate this. It's such a dumb thing to argue about.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

If Wario was Wario Land instead of WarioWare I'd say Captain Syrup makes sense.

Repeating myself, but... how would she fight?

 

[Lyndis_]

Villains

Girls


Doesn't seem very lacking to me.

I think that villains roster is a bit of a stretch. It's more like:


At the very least, the Koopalings as costumes should not be counted as individual characters. I also don't really think anti-heroes count as villains (but Dedede, Mewtwo and DK still count because of their first appearances, and more importantly, DK's role in Mario vs. DK.)

16 out of 58 is also incredibly disproportionate, so I could easily see why people would want some more fan favorites in.

Repeating myself, but... how would she fight?

Don't know at all. I don't particularly want her, but, I was just applying them to the "female villain" thing. Maybe Cackletta?

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Villains? Don't forget ...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Repeating myself, but... how would she fight?

You could pretty much copy and paste Shantae's moves from the Pirate's Curse and pretty much have a comprehensive moveset right there. With her pirate stuff, there's plenty to work with.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Personally I think we're reaching roster problems when the roster count hits the 100-110 range. Don't think we'll need to worry about it for awhile tbh

I couldn't agree more. I don't think a roster between of 70+ish characters isn't unreasonable. Neither from a balancing standpoint or a time standpoint. The game is being developed for one system this time around, and none of us...NONE. OF. US. know how long it's been in development or how large the development team is.

 

[Burruni]

Villains

Girls


Doesn't seem very lacking to me.

Dark Pit was never a villain, he was just fighting for his own survival against the protagonist.
Let's remove all costumes.
and kinda
But even then...
and haven't been an antagonist since Super Star Ultra unless they've been possessed. And modern DK (not Cranky) has only been an antagonist in the Mario vs Donkey Kong spinoffs.

So the list more refined is...
and kinda
Yeah it's a little lacking.

 

[Lyndis_]

Villains? Don't forget ...

I know you're referring to Subspace Emissary, but I have to admit, my first thought was embarassingly:

...AVGN's R.O.B. the Robot video.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I loved that episode! Been some time since I last watched AVGN.

You were right tho.

 

[Pakky]

Villains

Girls


Doesn't seem very lacking to me.

DK is not a villain

Wario is not a villain

Meta Knight is not a villain

Dark Pit is not a villain

King Dedede is not a villain

The Koopa kids are all one character

Jigglypuff can be male or female.

Mewtwo is a tool/boss that you impose yourself on more times than not, with a violent nature, not a villain.



Have always been villains with very little or no departure especially when it comes or main series stuff, no grey area there.

 

[Substitution]

Man for such a dumb thing to argue about, it sure seems to have a lot of evidence against it.
Almost as if most of the villains listed aren't villains.

 

[GaroMaster]

I realize that a ton of people here want K. Rool and Ridley (I do), but how would you guys feel if Dr. Eggman joined Smash?
I realize that it would be another character from the Sonic series and are there arguably better choices such as Tails and Knuckles. Honestly, though, seeing Eggman in his mech dueling it out with Bowser would be so awesome to see. Even more so than seeing Tails fight Luigi, imo. Is it just me that thinks this way?
I just brought it up since we are having this villain discussion.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I couldn't agree more. I don't think a roster between of 70+ish characters isn't unreasonable. Neither from a balancing standpoint or a time standpoint. The game is being developed for one system this time around, and none of us...NONE. OF. US. know how long it's been in development or how large the development team is.

Can you imagine if the development team was as big as Breath of the Wild's? That would be the bomb!