Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I think this is more a case of logic (whether that logic is fallacious or not is unknown).

Sakurai stated that Brawl was held back three months to put Sonic in the game, the implication being that SEGA finally caved and allowed Sonic to be put in around that time. If they didn't have permission to put him in the game until SEGA gave the go ahead, then there was probably no base work for them to use, meaning they made Sonic from scratch in approximately three months for Brawl.

Of course, if they did indeed make Sonic in three months from scratch, they were probably only able to because he was the (near-)sole focus of their development during that time and almost all resources were focused on getting him into the game. Which is what @papagenos is arguing for Banjo: "during E3 2018, Sakurai was giving the go-ahead to put Banjo in Smash, and Sakurai rushed back to Japan and put pretty much his entire development team on the sole purpose of getting Banjo in ASAP since that time".

The implication of this train of thought is that characters only take a full year to make if you have to make other characters (and everything related to all the characters) at the same time, Smash 4's DLC characters don't really matter for the time-scale, because they were most-assured made with a much, much smaller team than Ultimate has; Smash 4 was post-development by that time and most of the team had moved on to other projects, only a skeleton crew was working on Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas, Ryu, Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta (along with the stages and mii costumes that were also made around that time), this is just how game development works.

Does this clear up the argument for you?

Of course, I am not an expert, I'm only trying to explain what the argument is.

It doesn't clear it up because Sonic was playable in a demo in October. And as someone else said Sakurai has said he was added in early 2007. There is no source that Sonic was created in 3 months.

Btw I'm not saying the Banjo situation is impossible, just unlikely, considering dlc is a thing now and also -

I don't really get the idea that they would rush banjo together in just a few months when DLC exists though, it makes far more sense to get the game out and then work on him right? unless he was planned and work was done on him beforehand which brings up the question of why microsoft rejected having banjo in the game back when it started development despite publicly claiming they were up for it

And on top of that why cut the pokemon character of all things? that's kind of a big deal and they would've had to work out all the details with the pokemon company and everything.

Cutting a Pokemon , even to move to dlc doesn't make sense to me. The longer they wait to put Incineroar in the more irrelevant it becomes and I think the Pokemon Company would be on top of that.

Im totally down for Banjo getting in according to what happened at E3, and it's 100% possible it's for the base roster. But it makes more sense he would be an early dlc character.

 

[Cosmic77]

Question, but why are all the "insiders" being so mean-spirited and spiteful toward anyone who disagrees with them?

View attachment 173254

Can someone verify? But I believe this is Vergeben taking potshots at Papagenos for his video.

I also saw a Twitter thread where Andre from GameExplain took potshots at Grinch***s, comparing them to a Trump rally (and ofc used this opportunity to dump on the president as well).

And then some leaker from ResetERA named Steve taking a dump on PapaGenos for no reason.

And then you have Omni's mental breakdown on Twitter.

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose any and all respect for these people. How can you demand respect, when you're behaving in such a way, plus, such smug and spiteful attitude is totally unwarranted. Especially since PapaGenos has done nothing to deserve such treatment from these people. People are discussing leaks, yet the people labeling everyone they don't agree with as "toxic" are the very ones getting overly worked up about this, and propagating actual toxic behaviour.

Well, it's not like we're any better. We constantly harass these guys for answers, bombard them with questions they may not even be able respond to, and get away with saying some of the worst comments imaginable.

And then when these guys finally snap, especially the ones who are typically more friendly, they're the ones who get antagonized.

 

[VGPhaze]

The direct being next week makes way more sense. This week is Halloween week after all and I’m sure they have themed posts planned, maybe like Luigi’s mansion stage post, and stuff like that for other games.

Next week is a pretty open week. Won’t distract from Let’s go’s release, could happen right before Nintendo live which could feature new, dare I say it, printed merchandise on display. It’s also still early enough for them to do a second final direct if they’re not going to do a big blowout...

Maybe they’ll do a mini direct that shows a few things including let’s go, smash, and other upcoming stuff and then do a final smash direct at the end of November? Or they’ll just give us everything next week?

Only time will tell but I seriously doubt anything will happen this week.

 

[Deleted member]

By the way, I'm not a competitive player but I hope they won't decide rulesets by For Glory this time. "Ban Miis but Bayo is ok" still one of the most stupid universal character bans I've ever seen.

I agree.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

God, imagine this scenario:


We get a trailer for Isaac

We get a 'trailer' for Ken/Shadow echoes

Everyone starts thinking Grinch is 100% confirmed

"Now let's talk about some new Items and Assists"



How hard does everyone sweat profusely.

I wonder, what if certain assist trophies were to get the same banner treatment as Mr. Saturn? Would be weird and random, admittedly.

 

[Spatman]

No it didn't. It's stronger than ever.
Again, why do people automatically assume the Grinch leak is fake when more evidence comes out for it every day, but then some random "insider" (the same insider who, mind you, came out like three days ago ALREADY saying the leak was fake) reaffirms that the leak is fake and suddenly the leak is dead?

@TheMilkmann It didn't die at all. Just MysticDistance saying he doesn't believe it again.

I agree.
And people: **insiders** doesn't have the definitive truth in their bags.
"Doing the leaker" is neither a real job

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

By the way, I'm not a competitive player but I hope they won't decide rulesets by For Glory this time. "Ban Miis but Bayo is ok" still one of the most stupid universal character bans I've ever seen.

Worth noting that back during E3, Sakurai had said "We're hoping to get these fighters ready for online play"
So it may or may not be the case anymore.

 

[CrunchyCHEEZIT]

By the way, I'm not a competitive player but I hope they won't decide rulesets by For Glory this time. "Ban Miis but Bayo is ok" still one of the most stupid universal character bans I've ever seen.

remove every stage besides smashville tbh

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

My 100% and totally reliable sources from Boomer Gang can confirm that the music for Banjo will be composed by:

Spoiler: Kudos to you if you know who this is

 

[LetterO]

Mystic’s constant flip-flopping is why I’m not really gonna believe in him. It’s great that he thinks Chorus Kids are playable, but I’m just going to take the words of a Direct from now on to prove the leak right or wrong, not somebody on Twitter.

 

[Nekoo]

Question, but why are all the "insiders" being so mean-spirited and spiteful toward anyone who disagrees with them?

Spoiler: Language

View attachment 173254

Can someone verify? But I believe this is Vergeben taking potshots at Papagenos for his video.

I also saw a Twitter thread where Andre from GameExplain took potshots at Grinch***s, comparing them to a Trump rally (and ofc used this opportunity to dump on the president as well).

And then some leaker from ResetERA named Steve taking a dump on PapaGenos for no reason.

And then you have Omni's mental breakdown on Twitter.

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose any and all respect for these people. How can you demand respect, when you're behaving in such a way, plus, such smug and spiteful attitude is totally unwarranted. Especially since PapaGenos has done nothing to deserve such treatment from these people. People are discussing leaks, yet the people labeling everyone they don't agree with as "toxic" are the very ones getting overly worked up about this, and propagating actual toxic behaviour.

He's not talking about Papagenos, but about a clickbaity Article that wrote this and said that Vergeben backpedaled and said Incineroar was DLC.

 

[Dee Dude]

Sorry but I don’t buy Mystic’s AT claim and before any of you complain that I’m not giving him a chance, just me hear out.

It virtually makes no sense for any of the leaked 7 to end up as ATs, not in the one game where the major theme on newcomers is fan-picked.

Issac-Massively requested since Brawl, No AT in 4, his item is even possibly teased, it would be a giant middle finger to GS fans for all that build up and hinting just to deconfirm him again.

Geno-I originally did support the idea of him being an AT at first, but now I’ve warmed up to him thanks to the leak. He’s also been requested by fans sinc was well as Sakurai taking a personal interest in him, it would strange for him to go back on his words and not bring in for real.

Banjo-Most massively requested 3rd Party in the Ballot ranking 3rd global wide, negotiations with Mircosoft/Phil (who supported their inclusion) just to not them playable is ridiculous, Shovel Knight is different is because he’s only an Indie character, the fact that he’s in a AAA title at all is a miracle.
Banjo has defunct for nearly a whole decade, reviving a once major platormer character into a NPC is the dumbest thing they could do.

Chorus Kids- They’re in the same situation as Chrom who was made playable, they’re planned for Smash 4 according to Gematsu, it’s very likely Sakurai will want to implement them for real this time.

Mach Rider- Same as Chorus Kids, he/she was considered for Melee once as well the toy gun Sakurai supposedly bought for a “project” he’d likely want to add him/her out of interest as well.

Shadow-MIA, requested since Brawl after Sonic’s reveal, Dark Samus who was also an AT got promoted as well, and we got Knuckles as a new Sonic AT, if Shadow was still an AT who basically functioned as a timer item, they would’ve shown him already.

Ken-lol yeah nope

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Well, there is a loophole... Maybe he wasn't developing Banjo and Kazooie, but Blanjo and Blazooie, if you get what I'm saying. Sakurai saw how popular Banjo was back in 2015 and developed a BEAR bones concept, largely confident that Rare wouldn't say no later, kind of like how Iwata lied to the world at E3 05 about a Smash game being in development despite literally begging Sakurai to make one days later. Oh, there were plans but it was Melee with online, improved graphics, and maybe a few new characters. If Rare said no, they'd just scrap it but if yes, it would have saved them a buttload of work.

That would be spending 2+ years of development on a unique newcomer and all other associated content without having the rights to them, only to risk it getting shut down and all that work going wasted, when they could have just spent those resources on characters they actually had the rights to and could ensure will be in the game. If Sakurai was actually developing Banjo before getting the rights to him to pitch him to Microsoft, it would have been a matter of like a month, not over two years.

 

[osby]

remove every stage besides smashville tbh

And Lylat Cruise because some people apparently fight on that thing competitively for some reason.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Look Grinch leak is likely real but we have to keep are exspecations at check since it is a too good to be true roster and can still be fake

I mean remember the Rayman incident

Fun fact mach rider is why I think its legit

What else could the toy gun go with (aware of elma)

 

[Wiziliz]

I wonder, what if certain assist trophies were to get the same banner treatment as Mr. Saturn? Would be weird and random, admittedly.

I like it, but why the hell is Mr. Saturn on the banner, anyway?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Question, but why are all the "insiders" being so mean-spirited and spiteful toward anyone who disagrees with them?

Spoiler: Language

View attachment 173254

Can someone verify? But I believe this is Vergeben taking potshots at Papagenos for his video.

I also saw a Twitter thread where Andre from GameExplain took potshots at Grinchfags, comparing them to a Trump rally (and ofc used this opportunity to dump on the president as well).

And then some leaker from ResetERA named Steve taking a dump on PapaGenos for no reason.

And then you have Omni's mental breakdown on Twitter.

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose any and all respect for these people. How can you demand respect, when you're behaving in such a way, plus, such smug and spiteful attitude is totally unwarranted. Especially since PapaGenos has done nothing to deserve such treatment from these people. People are discussing leaks, yet the people labeling everyone they don't agree with as "toxic" are the very ones getting overly worked up about this, and propagating actual toxic behaviour.

I feel empathy for every single one of those people you mentioned TBH.

I am not gonna judge them for their actions that is obviously been caused by the hundreds of people annoying them about the Grinch leak. :/

I do not think this warrants the action of disrespect with our current situation.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

I will say, I'm also not really swayed by what Mystic has to say. The sudden change is odd, and doesn't make his case seems stronger. Not saying it's bogus, but often times the sources that stay consistent are the ones more likely to be correct.

Grinch leak, while having stuff added, has never really had its bases changed.

It's stayed stern, strong and mighty. Like "Dragon Never Yields" levels of sturdy so far!

 

[Pyra]

I like it, but why the hell is Mr. Saturn on the banner, anyway?

A prop for the Pikmin to carry.
People keep overthinking it.

 

[Senselessbreak]

So here's a question for everybody. What piece of evidence convinces you the most the leak is real or fake? Is there anything on the opposing side that makes you question your stance?

For me, I'm about 95% team real. Just the sheer amount of effort that would have had to been put into this leak for it line up with so much is the biggest piece of evidence for me.

As far as the evidence for it being fake, the most convincing to me is the small inconsistencies between the leak and the banners we've seen, but they are rather weak evidence to me. However, I will always remain at least somewhat skeptical until confirmation.

Its not small inconsisties its major. There are so many changes made to the background that you cant even remotely call it the same image. And all the problems consist clearly in parts where the creator had to guess what was behind each character. The back story is such a red herring that its sad people are focusing on that instead of the Smash content that matters. Such flaws arent coincidence and need explaining. I really want banjo too but i dont see it. Not to mention all the insider testimnies should be a giveaway as well.

Im team 5% real, 80% fake, 15% gray area between

 

[DarthEnderX]

But if Geno really was an AT? Man, talk about a slap to the face. That would mean Sakurai had everything sorted out with SE, but he STILL rejected Geno. His supporters wouldn't like that at all.

It's honestly what his importance warrants.

But then, there are other playable characters that never should have been more than ATs.

 

[Dee Dude]

Look Grinch leak is likely real but we have to keep are exspecations at check since it is a too good to be true roster and can still be fake

I mean remember the Rayman incident

Fun fact mach rider is why I think its legit

What else could the toy gun go with (aware of elma)

Of course but an entire game where every veteran is back + Ridley & K.Rool sounded too good to be true as well.

I think Sakurai has clearly blown expections out of proportion now, but the only thing we need to keep in check are his official statements.

 

[KMDP]

It doesn't clear it up because Sonic was playable in a demo in October. And as someone else said Sakurai has said he was added in early 2007. There is no source that Sonic was created in 3 months.

Btw I'm not saying the Banjo situation is impossible, just unlikely, considering dlc is a thing now and also -

Cutting a Pokemon , even to move to dlc doesn't make sense to me. The longer they wait to put Incineroar in the more irrelevant it becomes and I think the Pokemon Company would be on top of that.

Im totally down for Banjo getting in according to what happened at E3, and it's 100% possible it's for the base roster. But it makes more sense he would be an early dlc character.

Yeah, I don't really believe the theory either.

It's more likely that the meet-up with Phil Spencer at E3 was to show progress of Banjo than to get permission.

Regarding Incineroar, my theory is that they're holding him off until Ash's Torracat evolves into Incineroar (presumably, in Spring 2019), when Incineroar will be 100% relevant, that's the only way holding off Incineroar for DLC makes sense to me.

 

[StarLight42]

Its not small inconsisties its major. There are so many changes made to the background that you cant even remotely call it the same image. And all the problems consist clearly in parts where the creator had to guess what was behind each character. The back story is such a red herring that its sad people are focusing on that instead of the Smash content that matters. Such flaws arent coincidence and need explaining. I really want banjo too but i dont see it. Not to mention all the insider testimnies should be a giveaway as well.

Im team 5% real, 80% fake, 15% gray area between

The insiders have been wrong multiple times and certain outlets such as GameXplain refuse to talk about the leak at all despite doing 30 minute discussions on fake leaks in the past.

Also, while the changed background argument is legitimate, a lot of the "changes" have been proven to be the result of the blurry image.

 

[Deleted member]

People should ask for Sir Daniel Fortesque in Soul Calibur instead of Goku in Smash, tbh.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

By the way, I'm not a competitive player but I hope they won't decide rulesets by For Glory this time. "Ban Miis but Bayo is ok" still one of the most stupid universal character bans I've ever seen.

Miis were universally legal in at least 1111, just most tournaments banned the use of their customs, which if you're referring to that, had nothing to do with For Glory.

 

[LetterO]

Look Grinch leak is likely real but we have to keep are exspecations at check since it is a too good to be true roster and can still be fake

I mean remember the Rayman incident

Fun fact mach rider is why I think its legit

What else could the toy gun go with (aware of elma)

It’s not “too good to be true” considering Sakurai has already been doing things specifically for the fans (Ridley, K. Rool, Everyone is Here). It’s not out of the question to consider Geno, Isaac, and Banjo making it as well.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Question, but why are all the "insiders" being so mean-spirited and spiteful toward anyone who disagrees with them?

Spoiler: Language

View attachment 173254

Can someone verify? But I believe this is Vergeben taking potshots at Papagenos for his video.

I also saw a Twitter thread where Andre from GameExplain took potshots at Grinch***s, comparing them to a Trump rally (and ofc used this opportunity to dump on the president as well).

And then some leaker from ResetERA named Steve taking a dump on PapaGenos for no reason.

And then you have Omni's mental breakdown on Twitter.

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose any and all respect for these people. How can you demand respect, when you're behaving in such a way, plus, such smug and spiteful attitude is totally unwarranted. Especially since PapaGenos has done nothing to deserve such treatment from these people. People are discussing leaks, yet the people labeling everyone they don't agree with as "toxic" are the very ones getting overly worked up about this, and propagating actual toxic behaviour.

Needs to be said that Vergeben has always been like that, his personality was one of the major reasons people didn't initially believe him. He's a bit of a douchebag, especially towards the Smash community as he's one of those who think it doesn't belong in the FGC, but his sources are obviously great, so what can ya do.

A lot of the others I've also found quite disrespectful, they take on this guise that they "want to protect the community", but it feels like at the end of the day it's really just about their own arrogance. I get that they're hounded by fans constantly, but when you put yourself out there you know that's going to happen.

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

Sorry but I don’t buy Mystic’s AT claim and before any of you complain that I’m not giving him a chance, just me hear out.

It virtually makes no sense for any of the leaked 7 to end up as ATs, not in the one game where the major theme on newcomers is fan-picked.

Issac-Massively requested since Brawl, No AT in 4, his item is even possibly teased, it would be a giant middle finger to GS fans for all that build up and hinting just to deconfirm him again.

At this stage in the game I also find the idea of Isaac being an AT preposterous as well what with the banner and item leak. But it is worth pointing out that Nintendo themselves haven't actually hinted at him in the slightest. But the signs still point to him being in the game, like, 100% for me.

 

[osby]

I like it, but why the hell is Mr. Saturn on the banner, anyway?

He's in here, too:

Spoiler: pre-Smash For whiteboard pic

It's a running gag.

 

[Dixie Kong]

What if Banjo was the one character not part of the roster Sakurai conceived in 2015, but was later added in? (And maybe took Incineroar’s base spot?) And insiders have the old roster?

 

[Cosmic77]

So here's a question. Let's say Incineroar gets revealed next and the banner is confirmed fake when the person who made it steps forward. Not everyone, but a few insiders think there could be a few characters on the banner who are actually in Smash.

Who would these characters be and why?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Yup, still no Direct announcement. BUT, is getting a new weapon in Splatoon 2, that's something.

mornin lads


would love a marth one!!

Actually, there is one:

https://www.deviantart.com/mast3r-rainb0w/gallery/?catpath=/&edit=0&q=Mario+Luigi

Spoiler

Also, a Boshi one if Zinith hasn't seen it already.

 

[Deleted member]

This is getting out of hand!
Now there are 2 (thousand) Doubters!

 

[Senselessbreak]

The insiders have been wrong multiple times and certain outlets such as GameXplain refuse to talk about the leak at all despite doing 30 minute discussions on fake leaks in the past.

Also, while the changed background argument is legitimate, a lot of the "changes" have been proven to be the result of the blurry image.

https://twitter.com/bakufu1867/status/1056609533970276352?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

blurry images will never physically alter land masses and exclusively change things in areas that were blocked by others. Not to mention the changes exist in both the empty banner and the one with the switch logo. Someone already uploaded the real image and took a similar photo and no such changes occur. If this ends up real these changes were strictly intentional

 

[Pyra]

So here's a question. Let's say Incineroar gets revealed next and the banner is confirmed fake when the person who made it steps forward. Not everyone, but a few insiders think there could be a few characters on the banner who are actually in Smash.

Who would these characters be and why?

Considering that seems to be what the situation may be leading to,
Ken, Shadow, Geno, and Isaac.

 

[Pakky]

So here's a question. Let's say Incineroar gets revealed next and the banner is confirmed fake when the person who made it steps forward. Not everyone, but a few insiders think there could be a few characters on the banner who are actually in Smash.

Who would these characters be and why?

Mach Rider - Nice Rump

 

[Fatmanonice]

That would be spending 2+ years of development on a unique newcomer and all other associated content without having the rights to them, only to risk it getting shut down and all that work going wasted, when they could have just spent those resources on characters they actually had the rights to and could ensure will be in the game. If Sakurai was actually developing Banjo before getting the rights to him to pitch him to Microsoft, it would have been a matter of like a month, not over two years.

Work going up in smoke is nothing new. Brawl had a whopping 7 cut characters with Mewtwo and Roy having decent evidence that they were cut later on. There's the chance that Rare lied about the timing of a meeting too considering that Sega and Capcom basically did the same thing about Sonic and Megaman before their respective debuts. Where's this meeting with Microsoft talk coming from anyways because I've just been seeing it in the last hour or so?

 

[CarbVan]

LEAK IS REAL: Somebody took a picture of Eric's workplace lmao

LEAK IS FAKE: Alright guys hear me out hear me out. Somebody posted on 4chan in September and he thought his roster was perfect so he started his masterplan. He first started working on a banner by cutting out every character with precision and keeping the assets. He drew the empty spots in the mural. A month before, he had noticed the exact places where the banner cut so that he could place the characters in these cuts. His work done, he proceeded to look at videos on the internet about marketing and how cardboard cutting companies worked. He landed on a french company and called there to speak to one of the lead designers. He then checked his LinkedIn to make sure that guy had also worked at companies that have dealt with Bandai Namco before. He simulated a workplace along with the tools, printed on receipt papers Autocad commands, photoshopped the marketing blueprints and stamped his mural on there. He then bought plastic paper to make bracelets and designed bracelets with his mural on it. He put industrial adhesive plastic on both sides to make it look more believable. He made more than one bracelet and hid two of them next to the central one under paper on the off-chance that we would look there to find it. When that was done, he looked at the project and asked some friends. They said it wasn't believable enough. In shambles, he got an idea. Of course! The Grinch movie! He started designing renders and keychain-like things with the Grinch in a giftbox on it and put them next to the whole project. He then wrote the name of the employee, making sure that he put enough pressure to make an indentation on the paper so that 4chan could find it. He did one sharpie strike on the upper half and then two sharpie strikes on the lower half so that people would believe he really tried to cross out the name but not quite enough. Then, this absolute madman took a picture and showed it to his friend again. His friend said: ''Nah man, it looks fake, you can't just post that on 4chan''. Destroyed once again by his keen-eyed friend, he got another idea: What if I created another Snapchat and then send it to myself as a video and then take a screenshot. So he did, and then he went on 4chan and posted the picture there, praying, PRAYING that they would bite and that he would get at least 25 (You)'s. Disregard the fact that people with ties to Nintendo are acting extremely weird, please, that's totally irrelevant.

Amazing.

 

[Dixie Kong]

So here's a question. Let's say Incineroar gets revealed next and the banner is confirmed fake when the person who made it steps forward. Not everyone, but a few insiders think there could be a few characters on the banner who are actually in Smash.

Who would these characters be and why?

(Biased response):
Dixie, considering she was once considered for Brawl, is revealing again, one of the major last Nintendo all stars, and no Tropical Freeze content has been revealed yet.