Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[doomedtacox]

ResetEra saying if Papagenos is wrong then it will ruin his credibility is hilarious to me. That isn't why we watch him, he's never claimed to be leaker or an insider. He's just a genuine dude who likes talking/speculating about smash, and is VERY good at explaining his thoughts and the current situation regarding leaks. I don't watch Papa because he's best buddies with Sakurai and knows the entire roster.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I'd also like to point out that this comment (quoted below) is something I suggested and got flak for it when it's a definite possibility.

I mean, it even happened to a moderator here when Tower of Smash was a thing back in Smash Wii U. They spoke with a credible source that Ridley was in the game. We all know how that turned out.

 

[Shroob]

That's kind of stupid. WTF is going on in the Smash community right now?

What's going on?

This sums it up.

 

[Zinith]

After being pushed around by the dark lord creepy Steve, Incineroar heel turns against him and joins the fighters as day one dlc.

Now this is a comic I wanna see.

If only there was some sort of artist who was also a big Incineroar fan...

I wonder who that could be

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

I don't want to throw a wrench in anything, but I've been thinking about this for a while.

If I remember right, @papagenos said his source heard about everybody in the Grinch Leak and Banjo specifically, and that his source was from Microsoft.
I must ask though, why would a Microsoft source know about characters in Smash Bros. It's possible they would know about Banjo, but I feel like its unlikely that Nintendo would give Microsoft information about any other characters to avoid leaks. This just doesn't feel right to me.
Of course, I mean no disrespect towards PapaGeno, but I just find this strange.

Not to take a stance either way, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Third Parties probably want to know what all their properties will be interacting with, and how. It's partially why we didn't see many cartoony characters in Playstation All-Stars: Not a lot of companies were comfortable with their IPs getting blasted in the face with shotguns by killer clowns. Obviously, this factors into how third parties get negotiated for in Smash.

So it's feasible that someone at Microsoft would at least know the list of characters just from those contract negotiations. As for how far down the chain that information could have gone for PG to get hold of it, that's where things get sketchy.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Maybe I was incorrect in my initial statement, and I was definitely incorrect with the generalization I implied. My bad on that one. However, the large aversion and hatred of insiders seems to be a driving force for many people to support this leak as if they don't have valid input.

I'm not saying they're divine prophets to be believed, but I'm saying that they should be taken seriously instead of immediately disregarded because you either don't like them or believe they're being misled by some supposed misinformation campaign.

Indeed, which is why I personally do consider every insider's stance against it to be a point against the banner. However, since their only evidence given is it lacks Incineroar, it doesn't necessarily contradict the banner and I believe they are overstating their claims (unless they know more, but if so, they're not telling us--I understand why, and people have got to stop being assholes about it, but it also means we can't just take their word for it if their assumptions are faulty). Which is why I mentioned that I understand their aggression, because the fanbase response has been toxic. But to respond to that toxicity by making blanket statements about the community, completely dismissing their arguments, is also being aggressive and arrogant. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how understandable their response is.

And as for Papa Geno's--I'm worried from his statement that it's due to confirmation bias. It's fairly easy to find evidence to fit a claim--what demonstrates the likelihood of the claim isn't positive evidence, but actively searching for negative evidence to refute it. It's why the banner has a lot of staying power--the arguments against it are compelling, but not conclusive. But I find there to be extreme biases from both sides--those that want the leak to be true, and those who want it to be fake.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'll concede. The sentiment on this forum is only mild McCarthyism. We're certainly not instituting witch hunts, but the character attacks on insiders doesn't help anything. Yeah, they're acting smug and ****, but do any of you think it might be because of the way we treat them? Insiders are universally despised by the Smash fandom, even if they're trying to help. That'd certainly make me jaded and cynical towards Smash Bros. fans. At the very least we should separate their character from their claims, as they're completely valid whether or not the person is a ****.

I think it can work the other way around, and that it might be how they, or at least some of them, not to generalize, act towards us, and how that affects those who don't act that way? Sure, they may be victims in a way, BUT we can be victimized by them as well, especially if they act smug and like jerks. So you see, it can work both ways. And I don't think every Smash fans despises insiders. I don't despise them. I just don't like how some of them act.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

It can’t be denied that some insiders are being total asses.

But not all of them are. Just because an insider claims they don’t believe what’s going on doesn’t mean they think you’re an idiot for believing it.

Either the leak is fake and they have reason to state their claims (though not as vehemently as some of them are), or its real and something VERY fishy is going on.

And I’m partial to fish and chips.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So apparently youtubers are contacting square enix to flag papa geno for copy right infringement on the forest maze opening?

Smash community civil war continues.

Source? If it's true, that's so ridiculously petty.

 

[Waluigi is not getting in]

Insiders be like...

(btw just memeing no hard feelings)

 

[StrawHatX]

Not to take a stance either way, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Third Parties probably want to know what all their properties will be interacting with, and how. It's partially why we didn't see many cartoony characters in Playstation All-Stars: Not a lot of companies were comfortable with their IPs getting blasted in the face with shotguns by killer clowns. Obviously, this factors into how third parties get negotiated for in Smash.

So it's feasible that someone at Microsoft would at least know the list of characters just from those contract negotiations. As for how far down the chain that information could have gone for PG to get hold of it, that's where things get sketchy.

Not to mention PapaG said his direct source is someone he 100% trusts and if we knew them we would trust them too. So they probably had heard some things about other characters that lines up with their Microsoft source.

 

[DraginHikari]

That's kind of stupid. WTF is going on in the Smash community right now?

It's not just the smash community it's really just how social media has shifted in recent years. Harassing people, false flagging, doxing people who you don't like has become acceptable to a certain percentage of the general population even for the most petty of reasons.

 

[StarLight42]

I just got banned for "Dismissing harassment" because I said the insiders should not be rude back. Hmmmm...

Don't worry, we've all been there. I was banned a few days ago for quoting a post which said that these "insiders" set themselves up by saying the leak is fake and then not backing up their claims and expecting the SMASH community to believe them.

What did I add to the quote? All I said was "good post". I was banned for "enabling harassment"

 

[doomedtacox]

This isn't how advertising works at all....



If you advertise something before the game comes out, people expect it to be base game unless stated otherwise.


For example, look at the legal mess associated with Aliens: Colonial Marines and the false advertising lawsuits it got.




Banners at real-world events would have the base game roster on it while keeping DLC out. You're buying a game with 79 characters, Incineroar is NOT in the game unless you pay 6 extra.

I mean I'm pretty sure companies advertise DLC/skins all the time without explicitly saying you have to pay extra for it on that piece of advertisement. I know league of legends does.

 

[Tart]

I do hope papagenos don’t get harassed if his sources turn out to be fake. He seem like a really genuine dude who just trying to speculate like us and try to figure out what’s going on behind the scenes. So I appreciate what he is trying to do for us.

An insider at ERA is kind of talking crap about him already. Another user who seemed pretty neutral sort of defended papageno and then got called out for "bullying" an insider. I really can't stand the atmosphere over there.

 

[Honest Slug]

Wow people at ResetEra are asses. This is a big twist I never saw coming.

 

[LetterO]

Gregg would 100% know about Banjo's inclusion in Smash. And with Steve creating Banjo, its extremely likely he knows for sure if Banjo is or isn't in.

Didn't the people who made K. Rool not know that he was going to appear in Ultimate?

 

[Noipoi]

If only there was some sort of artist who was also a big Incineroar fan...

I wonder who that could be

I smell a new comic~

 

[N3ON]

Considering the most common response when any insider claim gets brought up (except maybe by Vergeben) is "who are they and why should I listen to them?", it's both unsurprising the popular opinion isn't with them, and clear they'd need to share more than vague hints if they really want to win people over.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I'm still confused about Steve.

Does he know a character isn't in?

Is he just adamant the leak is fake because a character isn't on it?

Spawn Wave seems to think it'd be believable if it had Incineroar, so...maybe Steve is the same way? I'd find it weird how they would know about characters that aren't in; though I guess it's possible they were shown a roster, but it's also possible that roster was actually incomplete...

There's also Mystic saying that some characters on the banner are in but it seems off based on what him and his sources saw...

 

[gloop898]

Not to take a stance either way, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Third Parties probably want to know what all their properties will be interacting with, and how. It's partially why we didn't see many cartoony characters in Playstation All-Stars: Not a lot of companies were comfortable with their IPs getting blasted in the face with shotguns by killer clowns. Obviously, this factors into how third parties get negotiated for in Smash.

So it's feasible that someone at Microsoft would at least know the list of characters just from those contract negotiations. As for how far down the chain that information could have gone for PG to get hold of it, that's where things get sketchy.

I guess that does make some sense. But Smash isn't "shotguns and killer clowns." Like I don't think Microsoft would refuse Banjo because Chorus Kids are in the game or something.
From what I understand, Microsoft is known to be pretty leaky. Whole press conferences have leaked months before hand. Which may explain why we got this Microsoft source, but it also could be why a fake leaker would say they are from Microsoft. I fear that PapGeno may be getting strung along by some fake leaker just to stir the pot a bit more, but I have no idea.

 

[MashedPotatoUltimate]

i've never heard of ResetERA until now and wow does that place seem toxic..

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good Guy Artsy Omni

 

[ErenJager]

ResetEra saying if Papagenos is wrong will it ruin his credibility is hilarious to me. That isn't why we watch him, he's never claimed to be leaker or an insider. He's just a genuine dude who likes talking/speculating about smash, and is VERY good at explaining his thoughts and the current situation regarding leaks. I don't watch Papa because he's best buddies with Sakurai and knows the entire roster.

Well if he's wrong it calls into question if he actually ever did have a source or just made that up to perpetuate and help substantiate his beliefs. Will the source be identified if wrong? How does a guy at microsoft know the rest of the roster with banjo?

 

[SmashingXan2]

God I'm stressed rn, sont know the full reason.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

It's not just the smash community it's really just how social media has shifted in recent years. Harassing people, false flagging, doxing people who you don't like has become acceptable to a certain percentage of the general population even for the most petty of reasons.

Pretty much this. I'm beginning to wonder if things will ever get better. We're too obsessed with getting a sick burn to remember that there are human beings on the other side of the screen.

 

[Shroob]

I mean I'm pretty sure companies advertise DLC/skins all the time without explicitly saying you have to pay extra for it on that piece of advertisement. I know league of legends does.

There's always a fine print that says the the stuff is DLC, or that it's marketed as such.


What you're suggesting is that Incineroar would be marketed alongside the rest of the base roster, which would, in turn, make people think he WAS part of the base roster, only to unlock everything, no Incineroar, and then find out "Oh, btw, extra 5.99 for him plz."



League of Legend skins are always explicitly said to be paid purchases in their marketing, and DLC for other games as well.

 

[CannonStreak]

Gee, ResetEra are big *******s (can't believe I just cursed). Why do those guys have to act like that? It is like civil is not in their vocabulary, neither is nice.

 

[Pazzo.]

A chat I'm in just banned direct lobbying for one side or the other and it's such a nice place now.

Tribalism only hurts us.

 

[Idon]

Really, I don't especially understand the need to bother people if you don't believe them.

Like, I'm pretty sure every forum has a block or ignore button in this day and age. And I'm pretty sure you don't necessarily need to watch any youtuber's videos if you don't enjoy their content.

 

[osby]

Smash fandom, at the moment:

The moment man devoured the fruit of knowledge, he sealed his fate... Entrusting his future to the leaks, man clings to a dim hope.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeesh, this is getting WAY too heated.

NO one should be getting harassed regardless of how they're acting. There is no excuse for this immature behavior, especially over something as silly as a video game. If these people say they think it's fake...Okay? Seriously, it is not wrong to disagree. For all we know, it is fake. Or perhaps it's real.

We will not know until Nintendo confirms it themselves.

Whether or not you want to trust the people saying it's fake is up to you. They may be right, they may be wrong. But as previously stated, attacking people is not cool. People doing this need to get some perspective.

 

[Matoi]

Alright, I think the Smash talk is done. Here's what went down.

Liam Robertson thinks that a factor for Banjo not getting in is because "Nintendo is stubborn, conservative Japanese men and they'd bend to the white man and "muh pride"". I swear I am not ****ing joking.

OMEGA LOL!

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

I guess that does make some sense. But Smash isn't "shotguns and killer clowns." Like I don't think Microsoft would refuse Banjo because Chorus Kids are in the game or something.
From what I understand, Microsoft is known to be pretty leaky. Whole press conferences have leaked months before hand. Which may explain why we got this Microsoft source, but it also could be why a fake leaker would say they are from Microsoft. I fear that PapGeno may be getting strung along by some fake leaker just to stir the pot a bit more, but I have no idea.

Snake does use some realistic firearms, and Simon has religious imagery. That's not to mention some of the more suggestive characters like Bayonetta. Even things that seem innocuous could cause concern for IP holders.

Even Smash has questionable content that third parties want to be aware of before they let their baby walk on in.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well, about the insiders, at least most of us don't go over there to the insiders themselves to bother them directly, right, guys? I could be wrong, but I have not seen anyone do that lately.

 

[Weeman]

Smash fandom, at the moment:

The moment man devoured the fruit of knowledge, he sealed his fate... Entrusting his future to the leaks, man clings to a dim hope.

Yet, the grinch is the means by which all is revealed.

 

[Noipoi]

I just wanna talk about video games. I dunno why some guys take it so seriously...

 

[ChronoKatie]

Hey guys, guessing we're still not much of anywhere with a confirmation or debunk?

 

[TheCJBrine]

An insider at ERA is kind of talking crap about him already. Another user who seemed pretty neutral sort of defended papageno and then got called out for "bullying" an insider. I really can't stand the atmosphere over there.

Alright this just makes me think some insiders are over-confident in missing characters and are extremely arrogant (also ResetEra sounds as bad as GameFaqs...).

 

[Fane]

Didn't the people who made K. Rool not know that he was going to appear in Ultimate?

Difference is that Microsoft owns Rare, and they no longer had rights to DK.

They still have the rights to BK though.