Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

It falls in line with Sakurai's comments of slowing down. Plus, there is every chance the 10 day thing was simply coincidence, but we can't know for sure, unfortunately.

Thing is that comment was intended to be published on the 6th, no?
Been over a month since the intended date.

 

[Iridium]

I love how there are tons of stages to play on in this demo and everyone still picks Town & City and Battlefield.

And that's where competitive mindsets restrict choices, or, they just really like the stage. Not gonna lie though, it sucks seeing Coliseum get literally next to no gameplay at all.

 

[Deleted member]

This entire debate appears to be about the trade-off between options and execution barriers.

To the group who want techniques like wavedashing, it's all about having the additional options that wavedashing gives. That's not a harmful thing to the game. More options leads to more choices and more interesting gameplay. It raises the skill ceiling.

The problem is that these options, in Melee, come at the expense of additional execution barriers that also raise the skill floor. It becomes more difficult for a casual player to play the game at any level. Melee, to a casual player who doesn't want to grind out L-cancelling, wavedashing, etc does not actually feel more fluid to play. It feels like you're controlling a sack of bricks.

I think Ultimate has made a good compromise between the two. Reduced landing lag gives the utility of L-cancelling without the arbitrary execution barrier, and the new dash gives significantly better movement options than 4 without the added execution barrier wavedashing brings.

As someone who prefers buttery smooth and polished controls over weird to perform jank, I couldn't agree with this post more. If Ultimate ends up giving us similar movement options to Wavedashing without having to add unnecessary steps in between, I personally don't see the harm in that, but to each their own.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Being good at super smash bros is about learning and adapting.

You mean like every other fighting game?

 

[Buzzwole]

Why can't they just put wavedashing back in at this point...? Lol

Some people don't like wavedashing. It looks very strange visually having characters slide all over the place.
Just let wavedashing be melee's thing. I'd rather each Smash game have its own identity.

Besides, I really doubt them adding wavedashing to Ultimate would make hardcore melee players move on to ultimate.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ "wavedashing in Ultimate" discussion:

Wavelanding is in Ultimate. Marked difference. Its utility has yet to be explored in full, but right now the consensus is that it's not quite as effective as it was in Melee due to how much recovery directional airdodges have in Ultimate.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Thing is that comment was intended to be published on the 6th, no?
Been over a month since the intended date.

Even then, it still fits. If the gap between reveals is larger, then that is slowing down. That's just my guess, though; I by no means have anything to back that up with other than my own opinions and speculation.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Honestly if wavedashing isn't as useful in Ultimate as it is in Melee, it'll be a detriment to the game. Wavedashing in Melee is super fun, it's useful, it adds depth to the game and it's really cool to show your friends. Nothing clunky about it.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Skull Kid isn’t playable, which fate would you rather have?

Assist Trophy return or Boss?

If given the choice between the two. I'd like him to be a boss where you first fight him as Skull Kid but after then he is freed and you then fight Majora in all its forms. Even then I'd be okay if its just Majora.

 

[Luigi The President]

Even then, it still fits. If the gap between reveals is larger, then that is slowing down. That's just my guess, though; I by no means have anything to back that up with other than my own opinions and speculation.

See that's my thing though.
It's been a month since ONE character reveal IF we were to go by when he originally published that statement.
That is very sufficient slowing down.

It has also been almost a month since the delayed reveal anyhow.

 

[Deleted member]

See that's my thing though.
It's been a month since ONE character reveal IF we were to go by when he originally published that statement.
That is very sufficient slowing down.

That's the thing, though: All he said was that they were slowing down. He never said by how much or gave any length of time, which means no matter how long it takes, it still fits in with that. That said, I'll be very surprised if it's any later than the first week of November.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Honestly if wavedashing isn't as useful in Ultimate as it is in Melee, it'll be a detriment to the game. Wavedashing in Melee is super fun, it's useful, it adds depth to the game and it's really cool to show your friends. Nothing clunky about it.

And while I agree that wavedashing is a super fun mechanic, it's not a detriment to the flow of the game if it's absent. The fact that you can do pretty much anything you want out of a run now is a viable substitute.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luigi The President]

That's the thing, though: All he said was that they were slowing down. He never said by how much or gave any length of time, which means no matter how long it takes, it still fits in with that. That said, I'll be very surprised if it's any later than the first week of November.

Yeah, valid take.

I do expect an October Direct still. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've made it clear that, despite being a Pokemon fan, I hate grinding. I just want to get to the good juicy stuff and actually play the game. The less time I have to spend repeating the same button inputs instead of actually playing matches with people the better. It's part of why I love Smash so much in the first place.

One of my hopes for Smash Ultimate is that I don't have to master any unintended techniques like perfect pivoting or wavedashing to stay competitive. I'd rather just continue to improve my fundamentals naturally through actual gameplay.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, valid take.

I do expect an October Direct still. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.

I'm expecting one this month as well, I just think this week is a little too early. I personally think it'll be in around two or so more weeks, but it's honestly anyone's guess right now.

 

[Buzzwole]

That's the thing, though: All he said was that they were slowing down. He never said by how much or gave any length of time, which means no matter how long it takes, it still fits in with that. That said, I'll be very surprised if it's any later than the first week of November.

November is definitely when I'm expecting our final blowout of info.
I don't think we're going to get anything in October.

Right from the start, Sakurai said not to expect many newcomers, and he very recently said that the reveals would slow down.
The way I see it, we'll get like one Smash direct in november and that'll be where we get the last of the information.

 

[Untouch]

I don't think wavedashing needs to return, but I do think higher hitstun would really help the game.
Hitstun as a concept is very obvious and easy to understand for players, and the more I think about it the more frustrating not being able to follow up on attacks must be to more casual players who don't really understand frame data and everything.

 

[Applebutter61]

There are basically two types of people in the SSB community (not including say, smash 64 and PM players):

Melee players, and everyone else, who will just always play whatever game is the newest. Why is this? From where I stand, I see it like this. Those who stick to melee do it for one reason; it's a superior game. This is not to say that, for example, smash 4 or even brawl are bad games, it's just that, objectively, melee is better competitively.

The reason to play smash 4 is.... Well, personally I don't know. I got into competitive melee only last spring, and I mean spring of 2018. I'm kidding, though, I think I see the reason to play smash 4, and ultimate when it comes out. It's just more fun for every reason that isn't seen from a competitive point of veiw. Brawl had a FAR better one player mode than melee, so, if you don't really play smash for the sake of competition, then you had every reason to play Brawl, a game considered to be inferior.

Anyway, reply if you disagree, and please, say why.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

November is definitely when I'm expecting our final blowout of info.
I don't think we're going to get anything in October.

Right from the start, Sakurai said not to expect many newcomers, and he very recently said that the reveals would slow down.
The way I see it, we'll get like one Smash direct in november and that'll be where we get the last of the information.

I mean we could see Late October.

I think it'd be wise to do the final direct as well as rest of the characters this month to prevent the entire roster being leaked as Brawl and Sm4sh suffered. November is a terrible time for leaks especially when it comes to announcing characters. You would honestly think Nintendo and Sakurai would learn from that especially if it had happened twice now. Why risk it again?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Hmmm it seems like Phil Spencer is visiting Japan for a week...
https://mobile.twitter.com/XboxP3/status/1049211399195451392

He states he is visiting various publishers while there.

How very interesting! May we see him in an upcoming video? Wouldn't that be fun!

Grain of salt my man take it with grain of salt

Doesn’t mean he’s going for smash to put banjo in he’s just visiting companys

 

[Deleted member]

November is definitely when I'm expecting our final blowout of info.
I don't think we're going to get anything in October.

Right from the start, Sakurai said not to expect many newcomers, and he very recently said that the reveals would slow down.
The way I see it, we'll get like one Smash direct in november and that'll be where we get the last of the information.

If it is November, I feel it has to be very early like the 8.8 Direct, otherwise problems start to crop up:

*Nintendo preloads their major titles anywhere in between 3 to 4 weeks before launch, which means datamines.

*The game is most likely going gold in about 4 or so more weeks and will start entering production and marketing, which means more people will have information on what the game contains, meaning the risk of leaks increases tenfold.

*In the past, Nintendo tends to hold their big game focused Directs about a month or so before launch. There is a first time for everything, but I would be really surprised if they all of a sudden decided to wait on this one and hold it super late.

 

[Buzzwole]

There are basically two types of people in the SSB community (not including say, smash 64 and PM players):

Melee players, and everyone else, who will just always play whatever game is the newest. Why is this? From where I stand, I see it like this. Those who stick to melee do it for one reason; it's a superior game. This is not to say that, for example, smash 4 or even brawl are bad games, it's just that,objectively, melee is better competitively.

The reason to play smash 4 is.... Well, personally I don't know. I got into competitive melee only last spring, and I mean spring of 2018. I'm kidding, though, I think I see the reason to play smash 4, and ultimate when it comes out. It's just more fun for every reason that isn't seen from a competitive point of veiw. Brawl had a FAR better one player mode than melee, so, if you don't really play smash for the sake of competition, then you had every reason to play Brawl, a game considered to be inferior.

Anyway, reply if you disagree, and please, say why.

There's much, MUCH more to Smash Bros than a competitive experience. Smash Bros is a celebration of Nintendo and it's history. The characters, stages, items, music, trophies, and every other little detail in these games mean a lot to people.
Judging a game like Smash PURELY on its competitive side is ignoring a lot of what makes Smash special.
I think looking at the smash games as "objectively superior or inferior" in comparison to one another is ignorant. They're all different, all offer different experiences, and all mean different things to different people.

For example, if you value single player experiences, then you're going to love brawl, and probably will think its a "superior game" in comparison to Melee.
Nobody is right or wrong, but when you say "Brawl is considered to be inferior", I think you're talking strictly from a competitive point of view, which is by no means objective. Its an opinion.

Believe it or not, some people just do not like how fast Melee is. Some people don't like the physics. They don't like the way it works. Some people prefer the later games. And no matter how much you may BELIEVE Melee is "superior", at the end of the day, that's just the way hardcore Melee fans view things.

 

[Fastblade5035]

There are basically two types of people in the SSB community (not including say, smash 64 and PM players):

Melee players, and everyone else, who will just always play whatever game is the newest. Why is this? From where I stand, I see it like this. Those who stick to melee do it for one reason; it's a superior game. This is not to say that, for example, smash 4 or even brawl are bad games, it's just that, objectively, melee is better competitively.

The reason to play smash 4 is.... Well, personally I don't know. I got into competitive melee only last spring, and I mean spring of 2018. I'm kidding, though, I think I see the reason to play smash 4, and ultimate when it comes out. It's just more fun for every reason that isn't seen from a competitive point of veiw. Brawl had a FAR better one player mode than melee, so, if you don't really play smash for the sake of competition, then you had every reason to play Brawl, a game considered to be inferior.

Anyway, reply if you disagree, and please, say why.

I play Smash 4 because I simply don't like Melee all that much. It feels slippery and, like someone mentioned earlier, feels like controlling bricks.
Melee also is harder to get into, I think, which is a common sentiment I believe. Me personally, I just don't have enough fun with Melee on a casual level to want to learn it competitively.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If it is November, I feel it has to be very early like the 8.8 Direct, otherwise problems start to crop up:

*Nintendo preloads their major titles anywhere in between 3 to 4 weeks before launch, which means datamines.

*The game is most likely going gold in about 4 or so more weeks and will start entering production and marketing, which means more people will have information on what the game contains, meaning the risk of leaks increases tenfold.

*In the past, Nintendo tends to hold their big game focused Directs about a month or so before launch. There is a first time for everything, but I would be really surprised if they all of a sudden decided to wait on this one and hold it super late.

Don't forget the risk of the roster getting leaked as Brawl and Sm4sh had. Even then I think late October would be the safest. November can't be trusted.

 

[TheCJBrine]

alright what do y'all think:

Spoiler: my totally real leak

 

[ZephyrZ]

There are basically two types of people in the SSB community (not including say, smash 64 and PM players):

Melee players, and everyone else, who will just always play whatever game is the newest. Why is this? From where I stand, I see it like this. Those who stick to melee do it for one reason; it's a superior game. This is not to say that, for example, smash 4 or even brawl are bad games, it's just that, objectively, melee is better competitively.

The reason to play smash 4 is.... Well, personally I don't know. I got into competitive melee only last spring, and I mean spring of 2018. I'm kidding, though, I think I see the reason to play smash 4, and ultimate when it comes out. It's just more fun for every reason that isn't seen from a competitive point of veiw. Brawl had a FAR better one player mode than melee, so, if you don't really play smash for the sake of competition, then you had every reason to play Brawl, a game considered to be inferior.

Anyway, reply if you disagree, and please, say why.

Smash 4 has
- A lower barrier to entry
- A much larger roster
- A much more balanced roster

To say Melee is objectively better competitively is objectively false. It's 100% subjective.

 

[Luigi The President]

alright what do y'all think:

Spoiler: my totally real leak

View attachment 168979

Oh he's in

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Oh he's in

He is.

But watch as he makes it as an assist or stage character.

 

[Deleted member]

To say Melee is objectively better competitively is objectively false. It's 100% subjective.

As much as I don't like Melee, the fact that it draws in the numbers it does 17 years after its release speaks volumes.

 

[The Legendary Beast]

Oh he's in

"Yep, it's him....."

 

[ZephyrZ]

As much as I don't like Melee, the fact that it draws in the numbers it does 17 years after its release speaks volumes.

Oh don't get me wrong, I have complete respect for Melee and its community. But to say it's better is still completely down to opinion and personal taste.

 

[Deleted member]

I think people play Melee because they like Melee. Same with any other Smash: People play 'em 'cause they like them. I don't think you can really state any one as objectively superior when the very notion of that will be based off of your own preferences, thus making it subjective.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I've made it clear that, despite being a Pokemon fan, I hate grinding. I just want to get to the good juicy stuff and actually play the game. The less time I have to spend repeating the same button inputs instead of actually playing matches with people the better. It's part of why I love Smash so much in the first place.

One of my hopes for Smash Ultimate is that I don't have to master any unintended techniques like perfect pivoting or wavedashing to stay competitive. I'd rather just continue to improve my fundamentals naturally through actual gameplay.

Wavedashing and perfect pivoting were both intentional in their respective games. This has been corroborated a billion times via articles on the matter and the fact that these things stayed in the game despite different versions (PAL for Melee, various patches for Smash 4) releasing. I will say that perfect pivoting was a very specific thing for certain characters; a lot of characters were either fine without it at high levels of play, or it was just superfluous altogether for them.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you plan on playing for competitive stakes in Ultimate, you're going to have to master all the stuff that's available to you. Otherwise you're just arbitrarily handicapping yourself and making things that much more difficult for you in the long run.

Smooth Criminal

 

[domriver]

Hmmm it seems like Phil Spencer is visiting Japan for a week...
https://mobile.twitter.com/XboxP3/status/1049211399195451392

He states he is visiting various publishers while there.

How very interesting! May we see him in an upcoming video? Wouldn't that be fun!

I hope he stops by Nintendo Talks with Sakurai. But yeah take it with a grain of salt people a grain of FREAKING SALT. ugh.

 

[Noipoi]

I haven't played Melee, but the game looks wicked fast and combo based. That's gotta be one of the reasons it's good or competitive.
Ultimate seems pretty fast compared to 4 and especially Brawl, it won't be Melee 2 but I think it'll be good competitively.
Then again i'm not a competitive player so what do I know .

 

[MSmariosonic]

Is there truly a fighting game that's the best?

In the end it all comes down to preference of gameplay.

 

[Darkfur]

And while I agree that wavedashing is a super fun mechanic, it's not a detriment to the flow of the game if it's absent. The fact that you can do pretty much anything you want out of a run now is a viable substitute.

Smooth Criminal

I honestly kinda like that better. Makes things more accessible. =)

 

[Deleted member]

Is there truly a fighting game that's the best?

Divekick is objectively the best fighting game ever made.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Wavedashing and perfect pivoting were both intentional to their respective games. This has been corroborated a billion times via articles on the matter and the fact that these things stayed in the game despite different versions (PAL for Melee, various patches for Smash 4) releasing. I will say that perfect pivoting was a very specific thing for certain characters; a lot of characters were either fine without it at high levels of play, or it was just

They were not bugs, but the effects that they had on gameplay weren't intentional.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you plan on playing for competitive stakes in Ultimate, you're going to have to master all the stuff that's available to you. Otherwise you're just arbitrarily handicapping yourself and making things that much more difficult for you in the long run.

I know this, otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with advanced techniques in the first place. I can still hope that nothing like that slips into the game.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Divekick is objectively the best fighting game ever made.

Fam

What you smokin'?