Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Arymle Roseanne]

Let's really be honest: Even if Geno, Bandana Dee, Isaac, and every character anyone has ever wanted gets in, people will still find reasons to be disappointed with the roster.

Of course, you can't please everyone but the majority of fans will be happy.

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't believe the box theory for a whole host of reasons but even if it does pan out, we're still living in a universe where Ridley, K. Rool, and Simon Belmont are newcomers in addition to every single character ever in Smash even as a one off.

Being disappointed in that is just willful misery.

You have the correct attitude. Six months ago, who would have guessed that we would get Ridley and Castlevania content? Every single character returning? Ridley and K. Rool were the two most wanted characters for over 10 years. The roster's distribution so far is evenly spread across the past and the present (three made their debut in the 1980's, two in 1990's, one in the 2000s, three in 2010's). Even among the traditional whines ("we need more villains and females"), this roster has given us a lot. We got four female newcomers so far (Inkling, Isabelle, Daisy, and Dark Samus) and three villains so far (Ridley, K. Rool, and Dark Samus), which for females is more than every Smash game except for 4 and for villains more than every game except maybe Brawl (depends on which of Wario, Wolf, Meta Knight, and King Dedede you count as villains or not).

There is really no single character for anyone to point to as an "injustice" for he/she/it not making the base roster (there are no characters left that were on par with Ridley and K. Rool in terms of requests, and no cuts this time for people to be upset about). Sure there are characters that definitely deserved to be in, but there is no consensus this time as there was with Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. We also flat out know most likely DLC is coming, so the bitterness about the base roster possibly having very few newcomers left does not make much sense (you will simply have to wait past release date for prospective additional newcomers).

What is the issue with this roster aside from there being less newcomers in comparison to Smash 4 and Brawl (which Sakurai warned us about since E3)?

This is easily the best roster to date. We even got many surprises with this roster. Who saw Ridley coming after Sakurai said he was too big? Who saw Simon Belmont coming (before Vergeben)? Who saw Daisy coming over Toad, Captain Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, and Geno? Who saw Dark Samus coming (before echoes were known)? Who saw Chrom coming after Smash 4 mocked the character multiple times (again before echoes were unveiled)? Who saw Richter coming even after Simon was "leaked"?

We got a very good mix of characters people wanted and pleasant surprises. For a roster that might have less newcomers than Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4, Sakurai could very well have done the best he could have done with the time and slots he had available.

 

[Potato_]

So we have the box theory, we have this card "somewhat" supporting it, AND we have the japanese video update happening which has happened in the past closely before getting new smash news (isabelle)...

What if we get a direct next week (or at some point soon this month) and we get ken/Incineroar and thats it... for the promotional material.

things start to go into printing and the Box IS the final box with ken and incineroar BUT theres still a final direct at some point in November with a few more characters but they were NEVER intended to fit on the box/promotional material.

Basically getting the "full" roster in october here would feel sort of early (it could happen of course, maybe sakurai wants us to know the full roster this earlier and intended to do so all along to hopefully avoid leaks). I just think its also possible that if we get a direct soon (which we have reason to believe we might) and we get two more characters, maybe that IS the full box art roster but not the full game roster.

not exactly a new idea here but I always thought we'd see ken and incineroar in november if they were our final two and now we have reason to believe we may get some smash news soon so... maybe there will be a few more secrets left for november i cant imagine ending the "hype" of character reveals this early being a good move.

I do like this idea, as I mentioned before it keeps the idea of secret characters intact by hiding them from promotional art, so a more casual player could legitimately be surprised when they see that character ingame.

The only problem with this is that they won't use that character for promotion, and I'd imagine that if it's a big third party they'd want to do exactly that to draw people into the game. If they did take this path I would imagine it'd be characters that the hardcore fanbase likes, Isaac and Geno for example. Names that wouldn't mean much to the casual audience essentially.

There's also the possibility that this is just early promotional stuff like the cards being passed around at E3 with the amount of characters on it.

"Insert usual message about keeping expectations low here"

 

[ThatOneAnon]

That's a little mean, don't you think?
Not everyone in the fanbase is like that...

One, yes they are, two, even if they weren't it wouldn't matter.

 

[Untouch]

I think if we get a reveal without a direct, the box/card theory will be debunked.
It feels very unlikely that the last direct will not have any reveal at all.

 

[Nap_]

The card could confirm or... Decomfirm the box. Maybe they are just working with the revealed fighters. At least Isabelle is there. Why should they do a mock up you say? That card is a work in progress, lacks some fighters, and still had been printed, so, more final designs to come. I said it before, the box theory is pretty strong, I believe in it, but as a graphic designer I know that there's a lot of work that goes to the garbage bin and a lot of designs for the same product, some of them just for mere promo as the card. That's how advertisment work.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

One, yes they are, two, even if they weren't it wouldn't matter.

So basically people are bad until proven bad?

You must be fun at parties.

 

[Fenriraga]

I'll be honest, a lot of it just remind me of Tower of Smash back in the Smash 4 days, where tons of people subscribed to an idea that gave us more newcomers despite things pointing elsewhere. That's my main point of contention. It's not an exact fit, but I see parallels, is all.

I can see what you mean by that, yeah. The way the community can (and will) stick to something like glue just because it hasn't been disproven gets under my skin too. Believe me, I'd LOVE to believe that Geno Celica leak that hasn't been "disproven" yet :V

But again, it is extremes from both sides. The Tower of Smash debacle is just as comparable to putting all of one's cards in Box Theory (Which I'm not saying you are), the only difference being it's implying less newcomers rather than more newcomers. So I get a bit irked when I see someone boasting about how Box Theory isn't dead and that the people who think it is are the one's being ridiculous.

...Which you ALSO weren't doing since that was aimed at people who thing we have a million newcomers left, so... I think I'm kinda forgetting what I was even arguing about here. :V

 

[Noipoi]

But they get internet points to say they were right and everyone else was wrong!

The playlist updating is cool, hopefully that means something soon.

A playlist updated?

 

[Michele]

Has anyone noticed that Japanese fighter playlist has been updated two days ago?
Anyways...

First off, you don't need to talk to me like I'm five.

Second, I still don't buy it. Two incidences does not a pattern make.

Maybe it has more to do with arranging rectangles in smaller rectangles more than it is some arcane cloak and daggery to hide the matrix code that tells us we're only getting Ken and Incineroar. As an artist, and a comic artist at that, rectangles are tricky shapes to work with because they're evenly-uneven. You have to get creative with filling spaces that have an odd number of them, especially true when you've got like 50+ of them spread across unequal surfaces.

People seem to get this idea in their head that they're literally taking a package and slapping on new boxes as they go along. "Bobby, hand me that Robin sticker, we gotta make this fit! Oh heck, it's going on Amazon, peel off that Ken!" Truth is, they probably have _tons_ of designs made up as placeholders for different parts in the reveal schedule, each with their own unique layout to make the most appealing image with what they have. They don't "add on" until they get to the final box. If they need to resize or restructure, they will, because nobody cares, because it's a box.

The same goes for the card.

Um, I don't remember calling you five?

I still don't buy the box theory. All I was saying was that the black box is what could drive peoples to give up and believe it. I mean...it's slightly difficult to find the black box but still easy, if you ask me.

 

[Starbound]

Wow this is the fastest the thread has moved in days!

What are we talking about?

 

[osby]

That's a little mean, don't you think?
Not everyone in the fanbase is like that...

Sorry, my bad. Um, no offense if you're not like that?

 

[Potato_]

I think if we get a reveal without a direct, the box/card theory will be debunked.
It feels very unlikely that the last direct will not have any reveal at all.

Pretty much. Let's say we get a trailer next week that shows Incineroar. They technically COULD show a direct with just Ken as an echo reveal, but I highly doubt it.

Basically if we do get this reveal and Sakurai doesn't come in to say "hey that's all folks!" then we most likely have more than what box theory says.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

I can see what you mean by that, yeah. The way the community can (and will) stick to something like glue just because it hasn't been disproven gets under my skin too. Believe me, I'd LOVE to believe that Geno Celica leak that hasn't been "disproven" yet :V

But again, it is extremes from both sides. The Tower of Smash debacle is just as comparable to putting all of one's cards in Box Theory (Which I'm not saying you are), the only difference being it's implying less newcomers rather than more newcomers. So I get a bit irked when I see someone boasting about how Box Theory isn't dead and that the people who think it is are the one's being ridiculous.

...Which you ALSO weren't doing since that was aimed at people who thing we have a million newcomers left, so... I think I'm kinda forgetting what I was even arguing about here. :V

The internet has a nasty habit of destabilizing conversation because there's no immediate reaction to contextualize the interaction, which makes it easy to run with whatever interpretation of their argument you want. When two people are doing that at the same time, it's comparable to turning sideways and yelling at thin air because you're hearing something that disagrees with you vaguely.

Social media is fun.

 

[Opossum]

I can see what you mean by that, yeah. The way the community can (and will) stick to something like glue just because it hasn't been disproven gets under my skin too. Believe me, I'd LOVE to believe that Geno Celica leak that hasn't been "disproven" yet :V

But again, it is extremes from both sides. The Tower of Smash debacle is just as comparable to putting all of one's cards in Box Theory (Which I'm not saying you are), the only difference being it's implying less newcomers rather than more newcomers. So I get a bit irked when I see someone boasting about how Box Theory isn't dead and that the people who think it is are the one's being ridiculous.

...Which you ALSO weren't doing since that was aimed at people who thing we have a million newcomers left, so... I think I'm kinda forgetting what I was even arguing about here. :V

If the Geno/Celica leak ends up being real I'd dance on the Box's grave, lol. I swear that leak, if fake (which it likely is), was sent to us from the Best Timeline.

 

[Deleted member]

A playlist updated?

The Japanese fighter playlist on Youtube updated 2 days ago. The last two times this happened, a newcomer reveal happened around a week or so later. Could mean something, could mean nothing.

 

[Michele]

Wow this is the fastest the thread has moved in days!

What are we talking about?

This card theory, but it has nothing to do and I'm not buying the box theory.

Another thing to note is that the Japanese Smash Bros fighters playlist has been updated two days ago, so we might be getting news soon.

The Japanese fighter playlist on Youtube updated 2 days ago. The last two times this happened, a newcomer reveal happened around a week or so later. Could mean something, could mean nothing.

I would say believe in your way. Even if it means nothing, you can have luck on this, and the next time, too!

 

[TheCJBrine]

So the Japanese character trailer playlist updated, as you all know, and from what I can tell there could be more than one unlisted video? Or maybe it's only one, I dunno.

edit: well, either two or more, I mean. I goofed and thought about reveal trailers

 

[papagenos]

Yes indeed, remember the game is now finished and they are just squashing bugs at this rate. So basically the promotional material is about done as well and/or is about to get released. So what you just said makes sense, that some secret stuff is let unconvered and outside the box otherwise we are getting what we already know,

right, again i only feel this works if we get ken and incineroar shown off soon, then it makes sense why thats as far as printed material (the box) was intended to go.

But if we dont get any smash news until november then i feel ken and incineroar and the box showing the full roster might be true.

 

[Noipoi]

Sorry, my bad. Um, no offense if you're not like that?

I agree that certain people in fanbases can be pretty douchey, but you can't judge the majority on the actions of the minority.
Everyone should be judged for their individual actions, not because they happen to like the same things a jerk does.
That's all i'm asking for.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Between reposts about the download card and the playlist update I'm convinced the majority of users on this site don't know how to use the previous page button.

It's the only reason this thread moves so fast lol.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

So the Japanese character trailer playlist updated, as you all know, and from what I can tell there could be more than one unlisted video? Or maybe it's only one, I dunno.

I would like for some resident cyborg ninja to hunt down the freshly minted URL of these unlisted videos, rip it, and upload it to some site like imgur just to see the utter destruction.

If people can crunch numbers on blog post XML data there has to be someone who will go the extra mile.

 

[domriver]

I think if we get a reveal without a direct, the box/card theory will be debunked.
It feels very unlikely that the last direct will not have any reveal at all.

I agree. Now at least with this updated playlist somethings afoot! :O

 

[Idon]

Let's just avoid the topic of who deserving what entirely.

No one's a judge in the court of public opinion.

 

[Xgears]

What's this card everyone talking about?

Let's really be honest: Even if Geno, Bandana Dee, Isaac, and every character anyone has ever wanted gets in, people will still find reasons to be disappointed with the roster.

"Too many fire Emblem characters waaaaaaahh!"

 

[Michele]

I would like for some resident cyborg ninja to hunt down the freshly minted URL of these unlisted videos, rip it, and upload it to some site like imgur just to see the utter destruction.

If people can crunch numbers on blog post XML data there has to be someone who will go the extra mile.

Please don't

 

[True Blue Warrior]

right, again i only feel this works if we get ken and incineroar shown off soon, then it makes sense why thats as far as printed material (the box) was intended to go.

But if we dont get any smash news until november then i feel ken and incineroar and the box showing the full roster might be true.

The box theory relies on the assumption that we only get one non-echo character left. It doesn't have to specifically be Incineroar for the theory to be confirmed. People assume the final character is going to be him because they feel he makes the most sense due to Vergeben.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Smash Speculation, circa 2014 AD-
*images aren't working, just try to remember the Japanese pamphlet that had everything up to E3 2014 and 1 '?' block
"Guess we know how much is left of the roster!"

Smash Speculation, circa 2018 AD-
*box and card
"GuEsS wE kNoW hOw MuCh Is LeFt, GuYs"

Please guys, as much as we postulate and provide evidence for our claims, we really have no damn idea in the end just how much is left. There is legitimate reason to believe any theory, but none of them really hold water until proven true. Don't just assume your chosen Smash Speculation philosophy is correct, temper expectations towards it and be willing to hear evidence and/or ultimately accept the contrary.

 

[Cosmic77]

As of right now, the box theory is completely up to interpretation. There's absolutely nothing besides the imaginary timelines we make up in our heads to support our arguments, and regardless of what conclusion a person might reach, people from the opposing side will think they're intentionally ignoring the obvious to shift things in their favor.

Truth be told, there's never really been a good reason for any of us to act so strongly about the box theory. Aside from possibly confirming Ken, all it's managed to do is cause confusion with Verge's predictions and pointless dispute over whether or not it was real - something we'll have no way of knowing until we wait and find out from Nintendo themselves.

 

[amazonevan19]

I think FE has too many characters as things stand (come @ me fanboys) and any more would be egregious, but if it's balanced out with more hype characters then I won't really mind as much. Already the roster is incredibly hype but the potential for more excites me. I just hope it's more than Kencineroar for base and then nothing until DLC; I hope that Kencineroar, Shadow, and Geno make base and Bandana Dee makes DLC. If that happens, this will be, in my eyes, the perfect smash game.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Question, not related to the whole Ken/Incinaroar thing, why would a physical download card of the game have characters missing if all characters will be revealed before the game's release?

 

[papagenos]

The box theory relies on the assumption that we only get one non-echo character left. It doesn't have to specifically be Incineroar for the theory to be confirmed. People assume the final character is going to be him because they feel he makes the most sense due to Vergeben.

right of course, i didnt mean to be so specific with the phrase "only works if we get ken and incineroar" i was just going along with box theory and vergeben. of course the final two could be mrs pacman and isaac and box theory is still true i was just speaking in terms of the generally agreed upon box theory/vergeben characters.

 

[Noipoi]

Okay, I just saw the download card. I'm not sure what to think about it.
At first glance it seems to fall in line with the infamous box theory, with the two spaces and all, but I feel like it can't be that easy...

 

[Dcas]

Question, not related to the whole Ken/Incinaroar thing, why would a physical download card of the game have characters missing if all characters will be revealed before the game's release?

This is what some guys have been saying such as papagenos. Those are the "base " characters we are getting and like one or two surprises for release, which are not in the materials.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Question, not related to the whole Ken/Incinaroar thing, why would a physical download card of the game have characters missing if all characters will be revealed before the game's release?

Probably cause it's not the final version of the game yet plus the devs are really making sure the whole roster won't get leaked this time.

 

[T3Z3R1]

Oh, fun. It's that time again. "Finalized Roster's numbers" argument is back again, and we still don't know how many characters are left. Aside is that, if Box Theory still hold true, that we could get final 2 characters, HOWEVER I don't believe that we're getting final 2 characters. We may get several characters, even if you think that ken can fit in incienroar's reveal trailer but this is false, Ken has to be revealed along with other new ehco fighters unless he's unique fighter since he is likely to be Ryu's echo and the fact that he was first clone of unique fighter.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

As of right now, the box theory is completely up to interpretation. There's absolutely nothing besides the imaginary timelines we make up in our heads to support our arguments, and regardless of what conclusion a person might reach, people from the opposing side will think they're intentionally ignoring the obvious to shift things in their favor.

Truth be told, there's never really been a good reason for any of us to act so strongly about the box theory. Aside from possibly confirming Ken, all it's managed to do is cause confusion with Verge's predictions and pointless dispute over whether or not it was real - something we'll have no way of knowing until we wait and find out from Nintendo themselves.

The Box Theory has, in all seriousness, completely wrecked the hype train to a state that can only be repaired if it's proven false.

Probably cause it's not the final version of the game yet plus the devs are really making sure the whole roster won't get leaked this time.

The devs honestly should just stop trying. Every Smash game gets leaked no matter what. No. Matter. What.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

So the Japanese character trailer playlist updated, as you all know, and from what I can tell there could be more than one unlisted video? Or maybe it's only one, I dunno.

If it's only one then things would be pretty interesting in relation to the box theory. It'd be pretty surprising if all we get this month is an echo in Ken, like it'd certainly be better than nothing, but it'd be odd, especially when the other echoes have only had these short gameplay trailers at best (and the box theory specifically implies he won't be a semi clone like Isabelle). But if it's Incineroar then that leaves us with just Ken left, which would be even more bizarre.

Of course it could also imply that Ken and Incineroar would share a CGI trailer, and although we've never had a trailer with two newcomers from different series it could make sense given they're both fighters who fight with fire, I could easily see them square off in a ring or something.

 

[osby]

Oh, fun. It's that time again. "Finalized Roster's numbers" argument is back again, and we still don't know how many characters are left. Aside is that, if Box Theory still hold true, that we could get final 2 characters, HOWEVER I don't believe that we're getting final 2 characters. We may get several characters, even if you think that ken can fit in incienroar's reveal trailer but this is false, Ken has to be revealed along with other new ehco fighters unless he's unique fighter since he is likely to be Ryu's echo and the fact that he was first clone of unique fighter.

Daisy didn't revealed alongside with other echo fighters.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So we have the box theory, we have this card "somewhat" supporting it, AND we have the japanese video update happening which has happened in the past closely before getting new smash news (isabelle)...

What if we get a direct next week (or at some point soon this month) and we get ken/Incineroar and thats it... for the promotional material.

things start to go into printing and the Box IS the final box with ken and incineroar BUT theres still a final direct at some point in November with a few more characters but they were NEVER intended to fit on the box/promotional material.

Basically getting the "full" roster in october here would feel sort of early (it could happen of course, maybe sakurai wants us to know the full roster this earlier and intended to do so all along to hopefully avoid leaks). I just think its also possible that if we get a direct soon (which we have reason to believe we might) and we get two more characters, maybe that IS the full box art roster but not the full game roster.

not exactly a new idea here but I always thought we'd see ken and incineroar in november if they were our final two and now we have reason to believe we may get some smash news soon so... maybe there will be a few more secrets left for november i cant imagine ending the "hype" of character reveals this early being a good move.

This is Tower of Smash "there are unrevealed characters if you link the 3DS and Wii U versions of Smash Bros" level of mental gymnastics right here. Sakurai said we'd get every newcomer before release, and I highly doubt that when he said it he meant "we'll save a couple of characters until after we tell you we've revealed the full roster and put it in promotional material."

If Incineroar and Ken is all we get, any character after that is going to be DLC.

Daisy didn't revealed alongside with other echo fighters.

She technically got revealed alongside Dark Pit and Lucina, who were reclassed as echo fighters.