Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CroonerMike]

What if ken is not an echo

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The box isn't going to look like that when the product launches though. It was a digital mockup edited to removed whatever is in that space unlike the card which was explicitly designed that way.

Who's to say the card won't have an updated design as more characters are revealed?

 

[Untouch]

Who's to say the card won't have an updated design as more characters are revealed?

It's going to, what I'm saying is the box only has 1 design so they never bothered to make a centered version of it, the box on amazon is the final design but with the last tile removed.

 

[Pakky]

What if ken is not an echo

I seriously think about this everyday now. Same for Shadow.

 

[Deleted member]

But what you're saying about the box not being final and card being centered to look nice is exactly my point.

If the box is gonna change significantly in how it lays out roster (which is has to to fit more than 2 characters), then why not make the temp version centered and more visually appealing? It's weird to make a temp image ugly when it takes less than 5 min of an interns time to center it.

There's no guarantee that it isn't the final design, it very well may be. However, if it isn't, then it's entirely possible for it not to be when the image shown isn't a real box, it's a digital mock-up of what it may look like, with the other side of the box theorized by fans about what it may look like without any proof outside of a pattern that may or may not exist. Characters could be on the back, characters could be organized differently on the other side, maybe there's characters on the bottom, characters could be shrunk just a little bit to fit in one more, who knows? All we have is speculation on both team real and team fake that can't prove or disprove the other.

 

[Enchess]

Who's to say the card won't have an updated design as more characters are revealed?

It could and if it does, it's a point against box theory imo. The entire point of box theory is it looks like they are purposely leaving room for an update. Card looks like it's supposed to be final. It looks nicer and more professional than the box.

There's no guarantee that it isn't the final design, it very well may be. However, if it isn't, then it's entirely possible for it not to be when the image shown isn't a real box, it's a digital mock-up of what it may look like, with the other side of the box theorized by fans about what it may look like without any proof outside of a pattern that may or may not exist. Characters could be on the back, characters could be organized differently on the other side, maybe there's characters on the bottom, characters could be shrunk just a little bit to fit in one more, who knows? All we have is speculation on both team real and team fake that can't prove or disprove the other.

Having characters on one side be in the same order as blog and on the other side be in a different order would look extremely unprofessional. Things like that are technically possible, but you can't honestly think they are likely enough to even consider.

The best argument against box theory is whoever made it was sloppy, miscounted on back, and didn't bother centering on front. Otherwise you are implying it's pure coincidence that the roster is perfectly in the same order as blog up until Ryu row, which if you know anything about probability is for all practical purposes impossible.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What if ken is not an echo

"Why not Chun-Li?"
"Then why should Richter have SCIV whipping?"

 

[CroonerMike]

I honestly believe they will spot at #70 with ken and incineroar being unique.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

What if ken is not an echo

What if ken is not an echo

It's a possibility. Ryu in Smash has several moves from later SFs. Ones where Ken and him have differentiated.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly believe they will spot at #70 with ken and incineroar being unique.

I could definitely see Ken being a semi-clone (as much as that would legit bother me), but what about Echos? I feel like if the last batch were the final ones, Sakurai would have stated as such.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I have a feeling Ken is an Isabelle-style semi-clone. Echoes take the least amount of effort to make, while semi-clones take a bit longer to give them unique moves too. Fully unique characters take the longest, without a doubt.

 

[Pakky]

Man I want Chun-Li and Eggman.

I think a Chun-Li AT would legit disappoint me.

Though Sonic getting Tails has to happen, I hope he isn't a gunner character because modern versions of him are kinda bad.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

He doesn't, but download cards and boxes would be designed around the final roster.

They would be based around the currently announced roster, there's no reason to imply what characters and how many are left on something somewhat insignificant like a preorder card.

 

[CroonerMike]

OOOO BETTER IDEA. Ken is a newcomer and incineroar is an echo of Falcon.

 

[TheCrystalCave]

https://twitter.com/eating_nitro/status/1047068327699537921?s=19

Have we discussed this yet? Apologies if we have.

 

[PsySmasher]

Hey guys! What have I missed in the past couple of hours?

*sees the new card "theory"*

Oh no. It's box theory 2.0.

 

[Kuon]

Huh... how convenient, Ryu's right next to a blank space... Probably means that it would be very easy to add Ken in there.
Also on a slightly different topic... How confident are you guys with Incineroar being the final Newcomer?

I think the reason there's a blank space next to Ryu is because it makes it look neat and structured well to have the blank spaces on opposite sides in the final row, instead of having them between characters or at the end. But I don't think they're going to change the way this card looks (or the box for that matter) when new characters get announced. I think it's gonna look just like this once the game comes out, and the new characters just won't be on the box or card. Simple as that.
Also, I don't like the idea of Incineroar being the final newcomer, since a lot of people are expecting a new Pokémon rep, so it wouldn't be 'going out with a bang'. A less expected character (such as the SE rep) would be much more hype and exciting than a new rep from a series that gets new reps with every Smash game.

 

[Deleted member]

Having characters on one side be in the same order as blog and on the other side be in a different order would look extremely unprofessional. Things like that are technically possible, but you can't honestly think they are likely enough to even consider.

The best argument against box theory is whoever made it was sloppy, miscounted on back, and didn't bother centering on front. Otherwise you are implying it's pure coincidence that the roster is perfectly in the same order as blog up until Ryu row, which if you know anything about probability is for all practical purposes impossible.

To me, probability does not equate evidence, and is entirely subjective based on bias and individual belief. I will admit I wasn't aware the characters were arranged in the same order as the blog, however I will say that doesn't shut down any theories against the box. There are many, many things that can change with it, and there is no way to disprove the theories against it, just as there isn't any evidence to disprove the theory itself. The only "evidence" box theory has right now is speculation that, yes, may very well be reading into things and creating patterns that aren't there. Music Theory was built on the very same principles, and people had no problem throwing it away because of Verge.

All it takes to end the box is one more Echo, which IMO isn't too crazy to assume possible given how characters have been revealed up to this point. That doesn't mean I expect one or I believe I'm right, I have nothing but my own ideas and speculation. However, I still stand by what I've said: The box only has that as well.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Mario will forever remain Nintendo's number one and I can't see them putting Pokemon over it. Besides, it was probably hard enough to add 3 returning pokemon.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I think the reason there's a blank space next to Ryu is because it makes it look neat and structured well to have the blank spaces on opposite sides in the final row, instead of having them between characters or at the end. But I don't think they're going to change the way this card looks (or the box for that matter) when new characters get announced. I think it's gonna look just like this once the game comes out, and the new characters just won't be on the box or card. Simple as that.
Also, I don't like the idea of Incineroar being the final newcomer, since a lot of people are expecting a new Pokémon rep, so it wouldn't be 'going out with a bang'. A less expected character (such as the SE rep) would be much more hype and exciting than a new rep from a series that gets new reps with every Smash game.

The last Smash reveals were almost never really hype worthy, Olimar in Brawl, Shulk in Smash 4...
They frontload the more hype worthy charcters for a reason...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

With box theory rising from the grave, I strongly encourage all of you to adopt Nihilist theory. Please join us in refuting false prophets and saving speculation.

That being said, I told ya'll we're getting a trailer in October. I hope it's someone good.

Also, my final five are:
- Incineroar
- Ken
- Shadow
- Sora
- Steve

That's a grade A final lineup right there.

Mario will forever remain Nintendo's number one and I can't see them putting Pokemon over it. Besides, it was probably hard enough to add 3 returning pokemon.

And your evidence for that is...? It's not a hard stretch to believe that Pokemon went to Sakurai and held a gun to his head spoke to him about including a recent Pokemon character for promotion. It happened in Brawl with Lucario and Sm4sh with Greninja, so it could easily happen again.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Also, I don't like the idea of Incineroar being the final newcomer, since a lot of people are expecting a new Pokémon rep, so it wouldn't be 'going out with a bang'.

Except Smash character reveals never really went out with a bang.

Who was the last character announced for Brawl before release? Olimar.
Who was it for Smash 4? Shulk.

"Going out with a bang" is not something Sakurai does, and I don't get why people have had this way of thinking when it never happened before.

 

[Kuon]

I don't want to make any assumptions who's left but I'm pretty sure Ken is guaranteed.

I hope we end with an even number at least.
Interestingly enough Brawl was the only one with an odd number of characters(39) the others were 12(SSB 64) 26(Melee) and 58(SSB 4).

58(SSB 4) is including DLC, right? Without the DLC, it would've been 51, right?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

58(SSB 4) is including DLC, right? Without the DLC, it would've been 51, right?

58 includes DLC, yeah.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario will forever remain Nintendo's number one and I can't see them putting Pokemon over it.

Meanwhile, in Brawl:

 

[CroonerMike]

With box theory rising from the grave, I strongly encourage all of you to adopt Nihilist theory. Please join us in refuting false prophets and saving speculation.

That being said, I told ya'll we're getting a trailer in October. I hope it's someone good.

Also, my final five are:
- Incineroar
- Ken
- Shadow
- Sora
- Steve

That's a grade A final lineup right there.

Dude, you won’t save speculation. It was already killed when Vergeben spoke. Let people believe what they want to believe.

I really doubt we are getting more than 2 more which I see as Ken and Incineroar. No Shadow, no Steve, and definitely no Sora.

 

[Kuon]

The last Smash reveals were almost never really hype worthy, Olimar in Brawl, Shulk in Smash 4...
They frontload the more hype worthy charcters for a reason...

Except Smash character reveals never really went out with a bang.

Who was the last character announced for Brawl before release? Olimar.
Who was it for Smash 4? Shulk.

Going out with a bang is not something Sakurai does, and I don't get why people have had this way of thinking when it never happened before.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they will go out with a bang. Maybe they won't go out with a bang. All I'm saying is I don't like the idea of Inineroar being the last reveal because it won't be very hype.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Fair enough. I'm not saying they will go out with a bang. Maybe they won't go out with a bang. All I'm saying is I don't like the idea of Inineroar being the last reveal because it won't be very hype.

It would definitely be more hype than Olimar, that's for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

Meanwhile, in Brawl:

For better or for worse, Smash Bros. will never stop cramming in as many Pokemon as possible. Most of my speculation on there not being a Pokemon newcomer a month or so ago was mainly based on preference rather than actually believing it. It is pretty much the only guaranteed thing to happen in Smash, IMO.

 

[Kuon]

58 includes DLC, yeah.

So then if we don't include DLC (since we don't know anything about DLC for Ultimate yet), Smash 4 would have had an odd number of characters in the roster, just like Brawl. For all we know, by the time they're done with DLC for Ultimate, it very well may be an odd number, which is why I don't think DLC should be factored in for Smash 4

 

[Dcas]

Dude, you won’t save speculation. It was already killed when Vergeben spoke. Let people believe what they want to believe.

I really doubt we are getting more than 2 more which I see as Ken and Incineroar. No Shadow, no Steve, and definitely no Sora.

I do agree with him tho, people can believe whatever they want but the problem relies on people believing in weird theories just cripples the quality discussion because their arguments are based on pure hype and wishfulness.

I do understand some people have fun theorycrafting and speculating but as ive said previously, for those of us who only want to know who the newcomers are and when we want to have a solid discussion, that sort of arguments tend to fall apart.

 

[praline]

Fair enough. I'm not saying they will go out with a bang. Maybe they won't go out with a bang. All I'm saying is I don't like the idea of Inineroar being the last reveal because it won't be very hype.

The last reveal was never the hypest reveal though.

 

[Gyrom8]

Mario will forever remain Nintendo's number one and I can't see them putting Pokemon over it. Besides, it was probably hard enough to add 3 returning pokemon.

Pokemon has a lot more newcomer potential than Mario. After Toad, Waluigi (sheer fan demand) and perhaps an RPG rep, who else can they add before they start scraping the bottom of the barrel? Pokemon meanwhile has a whole new set of heavily-marketed creatures in each generation. Pokemon's newcomer potential is so great, that they could easily do a Smash-like spin-off where the roster was entirely Pokemon.

The last Smash reveals were almost never really hype worthy, Olimar in Brawl, Shulk in Smash 4...
They frontload the more hype worthy charcters for a reason...

Olimar was hype for me...

 

[Flyboy]

Shulk was pretty hype. You're all just jaded because he was a Photoshopped Little Mac.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I'm unsure about a playlist update being indication of a Direct or standalone trailer.

In one hand, this somewhat contradicts Sakurai's latest Famitsu column about slowing down the newcomer pace since we'd get a newcomer literally one week after he said that.

On the other, the team put so much damn work on making sure there'd be as little leaks as possible (despite stuff like Vergeben happening) that it's hard to believe they'd just update things so damn early.

Also...


That's not a great comparison to make if you're trying to make us believe there's a pattern, given the fact that Isabelle's reveal got delayed by a week.

You have to remember that Sakurai's comments and Famitsu were 2 weeks old at that point (because Famitsu publishes info roughly 2 weeks after they are public). Also, getting 1 or 2 characters in a direct or trailer next week doesn't contradict his statements. We had 6 new characters in a month from August to September. Having that number lower to 1 or 2 sounds about right, IF it happens next week.


Anyway I can see this playlist thing having some merit, I think (?) it also happened before the august direct too, but don't quote me on that.

 

[AzureFlame4]

It would definitely be more hype than Olimar, that's for sure.

For me Olimar's reveal is only topped by Ike so if it'll be more hype than Olimar then I'M SO EXCITED!!!!!

 

[Kuon]

The last reveal was never the hypest reveal though.

I understand. I don't think Ultimate will have a hype final character reveal. I'm just saying that's what I'd prefer instead of a new Pokémon that is already expected

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Pokemon has a lot more newcomer potential than Mario. After Toad, Waluigi (sheer fan demand) and perhaps an RPG rep, who else can they add before they start scraping the bottom of the barrel? Pokemon meanwhile has a whole new set of heavily-marketed creatures in each generation. Pokemon's newcomer potential is so great, that they could easily do a Smash-like spin-off where the roster was entirely Pokemon.




Olimar was hype for me...

I am talking about being hype worthy for a majotity of people
I am really hyped for Incineroar though, tbh,

 

[Nekoo]

I really doubt we are getting more than 2 more which I see as Ken and Incineroar

A shame that a Square-Enix Character is basically a lock for Vergeben and Hitagi making it a 3

 

[Kuon]

A shame that a Square-Enix Character is basically a lock for Vergeben and Hitagi making it a 3

Hitagi? Is that the person who said that Steve would be in or is it someone else?