Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

the Chrom and Robin (b)romance is so important to both of their characters that I tend not to weight them against each other.

Wait...what would we call the Chrom and Female Robin relationship if they’re not married?

I mean guys Sakurai goes back on his word a lot A thing the smash fanbase forgets is that Sakurai is Sakurai you can't predict Sakurai he does what he wants

I predicted Sakurai would give Kid Icarus tons of love in Smash 4 and was correct...so some things from Sakurai can be predicted

Waluigi would be a fun addition, but he's already been confirmed as an Assist Trophy.

And no, don't give me "but Sakurai could change his mind" or "he could still be DLC". The fact is that they already put the resources into implementing his Assist Trophy role. They're not going to scrap that so easily especially when there are so many other characters that can still join the roster and represent more franchises.

Mario already has 8 characters, after all, and all 7 Koopalings are available as Bowser Jr.'s alternate costumes, along with having the most amount of stages with 18, so that's plenty of representation.

If Waluigi hasn't been added in 3 games, whereas even Ridley, whom Sakurai has once stated as being impossible to add, got in the game, it means Sakurai likely hasn't come up with something for Waluigi that fits his standards.

Daisy fans had it easier because Daisy is literally Peach 2.0 so she was an easy addition as an echo. She wouldn't have been added as a unique character no matter how Daisy fans pretend otherwise.

And the likes of Captain Toad/Toadette and Paper Mario can be saved for the future if they’re not in this game

Either way

I expect missing assist trophies like Skull Kid and Shadow to make it in sooner.

Shadow especially

I mean personally I prefer Chrom/Sumia because its closest to canon

The moment the “lovebirds” cutscene showed up I instantly knew I had to pair them together...no...****ing...regrets...pie

 

[CaptainAmerica]

"Assists can't be promoted as DLC" is nothing but a baseless fan rule. And I'm sure porting over the same Assist since Brawl took an extraordinary amount of work...

I'll never get the "they put so much work into his Assist" line of logic. I don't think Sakurai is overly prideful enough to let a decision he made back in Brawl stop him from pleasing fans. That'd just be turning down lots of potential profit money. That's not even just directed at Waluigi, but Assists in general. If there is notable demand, I highly doubt they'll mourn the loss of the grueling five minutes it took to port his data from the last game. He got a new texture and a launch animation, that's it.

It'd be easy enough to add an assist as playable as DLC and then patch out the assist. Especially if one of them has a large fanbase and a lot of potential. I think people are putting too much stock into a hypothetical vindictive narcissist Sakurai who doesn't want to change anything about his game (which is demonstrably false given the number of times he's changed his mind about things)

We love to make up fanrules and then we're so shocked when they turn out wrong.

I don’t think any characters outside of the big name ones deserve to be in. The other characters while cool or interesting don’t. If they get in, great. If not well maybe next time.

Waluigi doesn’t deserve to be in Smash because he’s a side character that only exists in spin off games and sole reason for existence is so that Wario could have a partner in tennis.

'big name' is a bit subjective as well. Just think, the current big names in Smash speculation are:

• Another blond anime-looking swordsman from another JRPG franchise which has been dormant for 8 years
• A player four character who can literally be described as a generic enemy with a hat and a pointy stick
• A third-party duo from a dead franchise consisting of two games over ten years ago and one more that even the fans want to forget
• And of course, a Mario side character that only exists in one spin off game from 22 years ago which didn't even have a European release until VC

Waluigi has been in almost every Mario spin-off game, which are more frequent than most entire series in Smash (Kid Icarus is 3 games, Mario Party alone is about to get a 12th game). To claim that he's undeserving because he's spin-off only is ridiculous, especially for those who claim that Geno is completely deserving despite him also being spin-off only.

 

[Chrono.]

Tbh if there’s an AT I’m 100% certain will return as one, it’s Saki. S&P sadly hasn’t had a game since Star Successor around 2010.

That, or Isa Jo will replace Saki as the S&P AT

Tbh I feel it's more likely that Saki just got axed.

 

[Frostwraith]

The issue comes with treating an assumption as a rule. Because that's all the "Assist=No DLC" line of logic is, an assumption at best, and a self-fulfilling prophecy at worst. If people go in assuming it can't be done, the demand dies down and then it won't be done.

That's why it's better to assume that no option is truly off the table. If it doesn't happen and some folks get disappointed, that's on them. People shouldn't feel the need to police others' hype anyway.

I'm just trying to be realistic based on precedence and how the game is designed. If that makes me police the hype, so be it because I'm not the one creating conspiracy theories, grasping at straws and trying to twist everything into "the thing I want has a chance!!!" only to be disappointed when the final product comes out.

The truth is that even if returning Assist Trophies are ports from previous game, it doesn't mean there isn't work put into them for the new game.

You don't just port stuff by copying and pasting the assets into the new game, especially when the new game has an updated engine and everything else needs to be reworked to function properly within the engine. Sakurai noted exactly about this when discussing the returning characters and how even characters from the previous game (and some obviously look ported from the Wii U game) had to be readjusted to fit with the new engine.

It's not as straightforward. The thing with promoting Assist Trophies into playable characters through DLC would mean that the game suddenly has a bunch of unused data lying about there that wastes resources when loading the game card and all that. It becomes data that has to be loaded, but is completely unused. That is bad programming and design by default.

When Sakurai considered DLC for Smash 3DS/Wii U, he wanted to focus on completely new content that wasn't in the game at all. Missing veterans to appease fans and completely new characters that had no presence in Smash before, including 3 third party franchises that got newly represented with unique characters that stood out from the roster.

Regardless of how the final roster turns out for Ultimate, if DLC is to come, I expect completely new content, and a once again high focus on bringing new third party franchises to the game, highly requested characters not found in the game or Nintendo releases that missed the base game's development.

Look, if I'm wrong about this, I'll be wrong about it and it's a situation that, for me, would be unexpected and it would create a precedent. I just think it's unrealistic to expect simply upgrading an Assist Trophy to a playable character via DLC when there are tons of other potential offerings that could be DLC and completely add to the game.

Because otherwise, you're not adding to the game. You're removing a feature from the base game as a cost to add a new character, which is a fairly odd premise for DLC in the first place in a design standpoint.

 

[Exalt4747]

"Deserve" is subjective and a bad argument.

 

[osby]

While i think that it would be amazing, and very hype.... dude, thats going to be a bloodbath.

Imagine the more toxic fanboys, and imagine if they actually have something to win by harassing the other character fanboys... brrr...
to the point that i literally can see someone stabbing another for a "smash related discussion" and even if i think Nintendo would be hardly to blame there, it would still be a PR disaster (I mean.. if people can stab each another for a macdonalds sauce)

Sadly i think this would be an instance that Toxic fanboys would ruin it for everyone...

Didn't it pretty much already happened?

 

[Deleted member]

• Another blond anime-looking swordsman who could have a beard from another JRPG franchise which has been dormant for 8 years
• A player four character who can literally be described as a generic enemy with a hat and a pointy stick
• A third-party duo from a dead franchise consisting of two games over ten years ago and one more that even the fans want to forget
• And of course, a Mario side character that only exists in one spin off game from 22 years ago which didn't even have a European release until VC

Man, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't we?

 

[osby]

You make it sound like you're part of a campaign to help Waluigi lose his virginity.

He certainly needs it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A little late to this discussion, but Pokemon Trainer already represents the gameplay of Pokemon far better then most characters represent the gameplay of theirs. And they're from a completely different genre.

Marth does nothing to represent slow, tactical based combat with the threat of permadeath. Yoshi isn't stuck playing a permanent escort mission. Pacman doesn't have to flee from ghosts every time he's on screen. Fox and Captain Falcon are fighting on foot rather then in large vehicles all the time. All of those things would make them represent their games better, but that wouldn't make them better characters. Far from it.

Pokemon Trainer manages to represent the team and switching aspect of Pokemon to allow you to incorporate Pokemon's strategic side into gameplay. Squirtle has mobility and combos, making him great at wracking up damage. Ivysaur has range and zoning, making her ideal for defensive play. Zard has weight, recovery and power, making him great at surviving and finishing stocks. Furthermore, they also sort of represent evolution by all being in different evolutionary states.

We Trainers are pretty lucky with what we've got. Pokemon Trainer is already a very ambitious character for a number of reasons, and I'd argue they might just be the hardest one to develop for already because of their switching mechanic. The only characters who represent their games better are probably Olimar or characters who already come from very similar genres (Mega Man, Kirby, Ryu) already, and I suppose maybe Robin.

I mean Marth's spacing is probably meant to translate the strategy element of Fire Emblem

 

[Frostwraith]

People often look at games as "art" or "experiences" when in reality they're computer programs.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I remember when before joined nearly nobody thought an AT character could become playable...then before joined many said it would never happen again...and then before joined some people thought DS was the only upgraded character, though after joined the “AT characters can’t be playable” y’all overall flat out died...so Shadow is next (and the moment Knuckles was shown to be an AT almost everyone instantly knew he would have to become playable)

 

[osby]

People often look at games as "art" or "experiences" when in reality they're computer programs.

And books are paper and ink.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Pardon me if a sound like a broken record, but I don't see why speculation should ever be about who "deserves" it. What is "deserves"? There's no objectivity with this statement, so why is it thrown around like it's gospel? Doesn't this just seem like a hive-mind mentality?

People who genuinely think that Nintendo is wrong and should be heavily criticized for not putting in characters like Bandanna Dee, Ashley, Isaac, Skull Kid or Banjo-Kazooie who have very good reasons for not being playable characters if they are not playable feel borderline entitled to me.

What good are you going to do by believing Shadow doesn't deserve to be a unique character over Tails? Why be mad that Elma gets in because "Xenoblade X isn't popular"or Incineroar gets in because it is another "fire type". You realize criticism needs to make sense and be constructive right? How are these examples of legitimate criticism? This isn't an argument, this is the equivalent of blaming every player on a football team for losing against a tough opponent for any possible mistake they make.

I don't understand how you can have such a arbitrary standard for who gets in this game and not have the self-awareness to view that behavior as anything but self-centered, jaded and cult-like. And then you assume people who don't want to listen to your constant salt are expecting you to be overly optimistic about a character? Doesn't that seem like projection of your ****ty behavior where you have to go to such an extreme and pretend like this is We Happy Few when you are called out for your salt?

This community is going to have another fall out very soon, as leaks are soon approaching, so I expect the same type of behavior. People can't just say "I don't like the game" or "I don't like this character" (as I can do about Incineroar, for example). They have to go out and call Sakurai an idiot for his choices. They have to prove to others how smart they are and how their sacred view of Smash is tarnished by an "out of touch" developer. They have to obsess for months or even years over what they did or didn't get. All because they had a standard for the game that at its best isn't what Sakurai and his team envisioned and at its worst too asinine or impractical to actually put into the game.

You might have the "right" to be mad maybe, but that doesn't mean your anger is justified. I would suggest maybe not going overboard with fictional characters in a video game? Is that too much to ask?

 

[osby]

I mean Marth's spacing is probably meant to translate the strategy element of Fire Emblem

Don't forget the Counter.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Pardon me if a sound like a broken record, but I don't see why speculation should ever be about who "deserves" it. What is "deserves"? There's no objectivity with this statement, so why is it thrown around like it's gospel? Doesn't this just seem like a hive-mind mentality?

People who genuinely think that Nintendo is wrong and should be heavily criticized for not putting in characters like Bandanna Dee, Ashley, Isaac, Skull Kid or Banjo-Kazooie who have very good reasons for not being playable characters if they are not playable feel borderline entitled to me.

What good are you going to do by believing Shadow doesn't deserve to be a unique character over Tails? Why be mad that Elma gets in because "Xenoblade X isn't popular"or Incineroar gets in because it is another "fire type". You realize criticism needs to make sense and be constructive right? How are these examples of legitimate criticism? This isn't an argument, this is the equivalent of blaming every player on a football team for losing against a tough opponent.

I don't understand how you can have such a arbitrary standard for who gets in this game and not have the self-awareness to view that behavior as anything but self-centered, jaded and cult-like. And then you assume people who don't want to listen to your constant salt are expecting you to be overly optimistic about a character? Doesn't that seem like projection of your ****ty behavior where you have to go to such an extreme and pretend like this is We Happy Few when you are called out for your salt?

This community is going to have another fall out very soon, as leaks are soon approaching, so I expect the same type of behavior. People can't just say "I don't like the game" or "I don't like this character" (as I can do about Incineroar, for example). They have to go out and call Sakurai an idiot for his choices. They have to prove to others how smart they are and how their sacred view of Smash is tarnished by an "out of touch" developer. They have to obsess for months or even years over what they did or didn't get. All because they had a standard for the game that at its best isn't what Sakurai and his team envisioned and at its worst too asinine or impractical to actually put into the game.

You might have the "right" to be mad maybe, but that doesn't mean your anger is justified. I would suggest maybe not going overboard with fictional characters in a video game? Is that too much to ask?

Great post, as long as we agree MY favourites are deserving

 

[Bladeviper]

I would much rather characters get into smash from series that dont already have a playable character before they start adding in characters like waluigi

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Man, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't we?

Nice fix as well.

With Ganon getting a shave, we are distinclty lacking facial hair in the game. Even Snake's stock icon is shaven.

 

[Frostwraith]

And books are paper and ink.

I'm being purposely provocative because, in case anyone hasn't noticed, I tend to talk about the game solely from a technical standpoint, which is what matters the most when it comes to adding features, characters and so on more so than whatever other factors people like to tout about.

Clone characters are a good example of this. They get added not because they "deserve" or because "a series needs more reps". It's simply because they're easily implemented into the game without significant cost in terms of programming and balancing.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, if Waluigi is DLC, his assist trophy just doesn't show up in games with him. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'll keep it simple.

Is it absolutely, positively, 100% impossible for Waluigi to be anything more than an AT? Not at all. Is it likely that he'll eventually be playable? Not really.

Just because something has never happened before doesn't mean it's impossible. However, on the flipside of that, if something has never happened before, then it's probably best that you don't set your expectations too high on that pattern breaking. Saying, "Waluigi can happen because Ultimate has already broken a lot of rules," isn't a good argument to make.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Don't forget the Counter.

I mean the point was representing how the games play, a single move that while a clever reference, isn't the best

 

[ZephyrZ]

I mean Marth's spacing is probably meant to translate the strategy element of Fire Emblem

I suppose so, but that's an abstract representation of FE gameplay rather then a direct one. You could also argue that Captain Falcon's insane speed and power represents F-Zero, or even that Link's defensive play style reflects how he spends most boss fights standing around waiting for an opening.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'll keep it simple.

Is it absolutely, positively, 100% impossible for Waluigi for to be anything more than an AT? Not at all. Is it likely that he'll eventually be playable? Not really.

Just because something has never happened before doesn't mean it's impossible. However, on the flipside of that, if something has never happened before, then it's probably best that you don't set your expectations too high on that pattern breaking. Saying, "Waluigi can happen because Ultimate has already broken a lot of rules," isn't a good argument to make.

And saying "this is Sakurai you never know" isn't really a great way to keep a conversation going. That could be said for any topic and it's not a great talking point when trying to discuss a topic.

 

[MainJPW]

Huh I never knew that. My bad, I guess Tails could work too then. But do we think Sonic will be the first series to get more than 2 representatives? I'm not against it but this is still a Nintendo game at the end of the day.

Sonic has close ties with Nintendo to the point where he and Mario spawned a 5 game crossover series, had Zelda and Yoshi themed stages as DLC for Lost World and is the only 3-time 3rd Party veteran. He's pseudo Nintendo.

I'm surprised he wasn't the first 3rd party to get a second character. If he gets 2 characters? That's just another fan rule broken. Tails is super iconic and Shadow is super popular and easy to make.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I mean, if Waluigi is DLC, his assist trophy just doesn't show up in games with him. This isn't rocket science.

We still have Knuckles showing up on GHZ while being an AT character...rocket science enough...we’d end up having two Waluigis on screen

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We still have Knuckles showing up on GHZ while being an AT character...rocket science enough...we’d end up having two Waluigis on screen

Yet Dedede disappears from Dreamland 64 if you play as Dedede and Alphonse replaces Toon Link if you play a Toon Link on Spirit Tracks

 

[Frostwraith]

I mean, if Waluigi is DLC, his assist trophy just doesn't show up in games with him. This isn't rocket science.

Well, that could actually work and is a way of having Waluigi as a playable character without having to scrap the Assist Trophy.

But through this logic, we could've kept the Isabelle, Dark Samus and Little Mac Assist Trophies when they became playable characters in the subsequent games. I mean, why not? These Assist Trophies still had something unique about them that isn't in the games anymore, after all.

Just so I'm clear, I'd love to be wrong if Waluigi did make it into the game as DLC without having to compromise his Assist Trophy role. He simply wouldn't appear when someone was playing as him.

It's just that the way playable characters and Assist Trophies have been handled thus far, I'm not convinced that this idea could happen. I don't mean to come across as negative, just trying to view things as realistically as possible based on what's known about the Smash series, its history and statements from Sakurai himself.

 

[Pakky]

So I guess that 4 chan guy doesn't have any videos eh?

 

[MainJPW]

So I guess that 4 chan guy doesn't have any videos eh?

Who?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So I guess that 4 chan guy doesn't have any videos eh?

It was a rickroll lmao

Technically that was someone else but the guy himself later admitted it was fake

 

[MainJPW]

We still have Knuckles showing up on GHZ while being an AT character...rocket science enough...we’d end up having two Waluigis on screen

Sonic Mania taught us that Knuckles can be in two places at once. Can the same be said for Waluigi?

 

[Pakky]

Who?

There was a guy from 4chan who claimed to have pics and videos and would leak them today around 9 AM PDT

 

[Deleted member]

Hey all, what did I happen to miss? Aside from the Ken stuff, the one thing I only remember that one guy who's terminally ill got his wish granted and played Smash Ultimate. Really ****ing happy to see Nintendo go to the lengths, news we all needed to hear, for sure.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If Waluigi is added as DLC I kinda think his AT could be replaced with one of the human characters in Mario Tennis. They do the same thing as Waluigi would do, but they just have a new model / voice clips. You're still cutting some content from the game, but not anything uber-important [code, AT functionality, etc.].

Not that I expect this to happen.

 

[praline]

It'd be easy enough to add an assist as playable as DLC and then patch out the assist. Especially if one of them has a large fanbase and a lot of potential. I think people are putting too much stock into a hypothetical vindictive narcissist Sakurai who doesn't want to change anything about his game (which is demonstrably false given the number of times he's changed his mind about things)

We love to make up fanrules and then we're so shocked when they turn out wrong.

'big name' is a bit subjective as well. Just think, the current big names in Smash speculation are:

• Another blond anime-looking swordsman from another JRPG franchise which has been dormant for 8 years
• A player four character who can literally be described as a generic enemy with a hat and a pointy stick
• A third-party duo from a dead franchise consisting of two games over ten years ago and one more that even the fans want to forget
• And of course, a Mario side character that only exists in one spin off game from 22 years ago which didn't even have a European release until VC

Waluigi has been in almost every Mario spin-off game, which are more frequent than most entire series in Smash (Kid Icarus is 3 games, Mario Party alone is about to get a 12th game). To claim that he's undeserving because he's spin-off only is ridiculous, especially for those who claim that Geno is completely deserving despite him also being spin-off only.

What are you talking about? I’m talking about the big name characters. None of those are big names characters. I’m talking about like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Link. You know... big names.

 

[MainJPW]

There was a guy from 4chan who claimed to have pics and videos and would leak them today around 9 AM PDT

Yeah, I forgot. I figured he was just a troll anyway.

 

[SvartWolf]

Didn't it pretty much already happened?

The stabbing? :s i wouldn't really be surprised...

I'm being purposely provocative because, in case anyone hasn't noticed, I tend to talk about the game solely from a technical standpoint, which is what matters the most when it comes to adding features, characters and so on more so than whatever other factors people like to tout about.

Clone characters are a good example of this. They get added not because they "deserve" or because "a series needs more reps". It's simply because they're easily implemented into the game without significant cost in terms of programming and balancing.

While i pretty much agree with most of your points and certainly understand your concerns... i don't think that echoes were done "just because is easy" there was a popularity factor in it too. Even if doesn't show on smash related polls, Richter and Ken are very popular.
Hilda would be a very easy character to create as an echo. but i honestly don't see her happening unless she gains like a "crazy" following right now and she ends as some sort of DLC. after all, even if is not too much work, is still work DX.

Everyone is clamoring ms.pacman but how many people actually want her as her own character?

 

[Untouch]

Oy

Something a bit off topic here


Anyone else saddened by the fact that doesn't have his own page on Wikipedia?

Yet Alucard does have one.

Out of a mixture of curiosity and boredom I've decided to look up the characters in Smash so far who do NOT have their own articles.
Why?

Spoiler

Dark Samus
Ness
Ice Climbers (Does have an article for the game.)
Sheik
Dr Mario (Does have an article for the game.)
Pichu
Lucina
Young Link
Roy
Chrom
Game and Watch (Does have an article for the systems.)
Dark Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Pokemon Trainer (Charizard and Squirtle have articles, Ivysaur does not.)
Lucas
Toon Link
Villager
Wii Fit Trainer
Greninja
Palutena
Robin
Corrin
Inkling
Simon
Richter
Isabelle

 

[Pakky]

It was a rickroll lmao

Technically that was someone else but the guy himself later admitted it was fake

Oh my god, I am so shocked, lol.

Thanks for the update!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It was a rickroll lmao

Technically that was someone else but the guy himself later admitted it was fake

I mean smashing to Never Gonna Give You Up would be an outright magical experience tbf

Also, Chris Taylor, the guy who people campaigned to have him play Ultimate due to his bed-ridden cancer got to play the game as some Nintendo employees brought a demo copy to him for a few hours. As I've following the guy's friends for a few years, it's really nice to see that happen