Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Yosher]

So does Linkle count as a triforce wielder? Because I can see her being added since Smash lacks in Zelda representation that isn't triforce users.

I don't think she is a Triforce wielder. Instead, her power is her compass... somehow. I think if any non-Triforce wielding character is added though, it should be Impa. But Linkle would be cool I suppose.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Reminder that Ridley has been heavily requested for over a decade and it took this long for him to finally be in the game.

Why? Gameplay.

Sakurai couldn't figure out a way to make him work. Yes, he was this big, badass villainous alien dragon that murders people with a sadistic glee, commands an army of pirates across the universe, and all that cool **** about Ridley.

Sakurai didn't find a way to make him a fun and viable Smash character until now. That's what kept him out of the previous games' rosters.

Not bias against Metroid characters, not bias against villains, not any of the conspiracy theories this fanbase loves to come up with.

Sakurai simply couldn't find a viable way to make him work in his strict standards. You see why I insist so much with gameplay? This is why. It's what gets characters in the game.

...but no? That's what kept him out of the game. He got into the game because he's popular. Because he's a freaking space dragon.

People have even implied he plays similar to Charizard and that hasn't bothered his fans because they wanted him for more than just how he would play.

Representation aside why is it a foreign conecpt to you that people like characters because they are characters and not just for their mechanics? Asking this as nicely as possible.

 

[Nekoo]

Just admit you're homophobic, this site is ok with literal nazis, mods won't give you **** and will even defend you

Not defending-that person, but don't go even lower than him with ad-hominem.
Calling someone Nazi might hurt people's feeling and I say that as someone who lost Family to actual Nazi.
Except if it was sarcasm.

Mods Should have stepped in the moment the flame wars started-
But I'm also against the concept of "safe-space"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But there is also the concept of basic respect.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Linkle isn't a Triforce wielder, she was just named after Link and comes from a random village

 

[Kuon]

Really?

You are entitled to your own opinion but it sure is an odd mentality to have.

It's not that it's sexism but it's odd nonetheless.

Trust me, I'm not sexist. I promise. I just like girls in videogames and anime. Probably a little too much. Lol

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I miss the Goku talk now.

A Smash OC is way more deserving than Goku.

 

[AzureFlame4]

I don't think she is a Triforce wielder. Instead, her power is her compass... somehow. I think if any non-Triforce wielding character is added though, it should be Impa. But Linkle would be cool I suppose.

Well if Linkle doesn't wield the triforce she's automatically disconfirmed anyway.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I also want to be clear about something else regarding LGBTQ representation in video games.
Straight privilege is a thing. If you don't deal with discrimination on a given topic, you likely have less experience within that field.
Determining for other people that their point of view doesn't matter because the topic at hand is not important does not move forward the conversation.

This is a big deal, and why what happened in these forums over the transexual conversation blew up. Do not tell someone their self identity is not important without expecting some serious backlash.

 

[osby]

Character personalities and traits are always a nice touch to have and, well, adds character to the characters.

But in a game like Smash, the only traits that matter are the inherent abilities of the character as a fighter. The rest pops up in taunts and victory poses but it's all aesthetic.

I'm just saying that characters in Smash are primarily defined by gameplay and design over anything else the characters may have for them, hence my Ridley example. Him being this super popular villain character to meme degrees isn't what got him in the game, or he would have been in Brawl ten years ago.

I mean, Sakurai always says he wants movesets to show personality, so they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, yeah, characters should have solid gameplay but this doesn't mean there aren't a ton of casual people who play Captain Falcon just because "show me your moves!" Aesthetic is important for a game's presentation.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not defending-that person, but don't go even lower than him with ad-hominem.
Calling someone Nazi might hurt people's feeling and I say that as someone who lost Family to actual Nazi.
Except if it was sarcasm.

Mods Should have stepped in the moment the flame wars started-
But I'm also against the concept of "safe-space"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But there is also the concept of basic respect.

I'm not saying "Every homophobe is a nazi" but I'm saying "This site allowed a guy who is literally a neonazi and one of the mods is fully aware of it to have a literal neonazi youtuber as an avatar for months" smh yall making me think I can't type cause of these misunderstandings

 

[Deleted member]

A Smash OC is way more deserving than Goku.

We already have Roy, does he not count?



Jokes aside, Tabuu would be kind of neat.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Just to point out, if you personally feel that you need representation of any particular thing that isn’t already in Smash, isn’t that what Mii Fighters are for, since they are complete blank slates that you can interpret them any way you like? Mii Fighters are intended to be a “close enough” replacement for unrepresented humanoid characters in general, after all.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Character personalities and traits are always a nice touch to have and, well, adds character to the characters.

But in a game like Smash, the only traits that matter are the inherent abilities of the character as a fighter. The rest pops up in taunts and victory poses but it's all aesthetic.

I'm just saying that characters in Smash are primarily defined by gameplay and design over anything else the characters may have for them, hence my Ridley example. Him being this super popular villain character to meme degrees isn't what got him in the game, or he would have been in Brawl ten years ago.

The biggest thing I think youve stated in your arguments is that we just don't have many defined LGBTQ characters.
I don't think we need an LGBTQ identified character in Smash bros, but I do think that the lack of LGBTQ characters in gaming is harmful not just to gamers, but the community as a whole. Gaming is art. Let's give the medium we all love so much the respect it deserves.

 

[Kuon]

I mean, Sakurai always says he wants movesets to show personality, so they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, yeah, characters should have solid gameplay but this doesn't mean there aren't a ton of casual people who play Captain Falcon just because "show me your moves!" Aesthetic is important for a game's presentation.

I mean, Sakurai is giving each character a lot more expression and personality this time around, so that to me shows that he cares more about just movesets

 

[osby]

We already have Roy, does he not count?



Jokes aside, Tabuu would be kind of neat.

I know it's a joke but considering Roy is designed for another game, only real Smash OC is Mr Game&Watch and maaaaaybe Dark Pit.

Mii Fighters is kinda in a weird spot.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Nice to see the conversation turn weird without me for a change

 

[MSmariosonic]

It's been a bit, but I did a new video! This one's about how many characters we potentially have left.

Extra points from me for adding Heihachi :v

 

[Deleted member]

Just to point out, if you personally feel that you need representation of any particular thing that isn’t already in Smash, isn’t that what Mii Fighters are for, since they are complete blank slates that you can interpret them any way you like? Mii Fighters are intended to be a “close enough” replacement for unrepresented humanoid characters in general, after all.

So I guess we don't need Geno, Chrom, K.Rool, Inklings and Skull Kid all because they're represented by Mii Fighters.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

It's been a bit, but I did a new video! This one's about how many characters we potentially have left.

You've done good... You mentioned Rhythm Heaven representation

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So I guess we don't need Geno, Chrom, K.Rool, Inklings and Skull Kid all because they're represented by Mii Fighters.

Shish Isabelle was a costume too, gotta play fair

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So I guess we don't need Geno, Chrom, K.Rool, Inklings and Skull Kid all because they're represented by Mii Fighters.

Don't forget Isabelle. Truly, all these characters are "represented just fine" with a Mii costume.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I’m really wondering if Sakurai is doing something different or special with trophies this time around, he loved using trophies as filler for pic of the day last speculation cycle. It likely he could just be saving it for the last direct when they go over the vault and little has changed, but there’s apart of me that thinks there’s at least something special in store for trophies.

Part of me wants a trophy battle mode, something similar to a virtual collectible card game but with trophies instead of cards.

 

[Deleted member]

I know it's a joke but considering Roy is designed for another game, only real Smash OC is Mr Game&Watch and maaaaaybe Dark Pit.

Mii Fighters is kinda in a weird spot.

Dark Pit as we know him today didn’t exist until Uprising even if that color in Brawl provided a basis for his design. So he’s like half and half. Game & Watch is basically an OC though.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Another point on the LGBTQ conversation in gaming:

Source Gaming is considered a reputable site for most on this forum, yes?
I was working with that team for LGBTQ collaboration in a print medium for which I worked.
The content of LGBTQ characters in gaming was so minimal, we decided to postpone the project after one article (amazing one, by Nantenjex), because we did not want to get too redundant too quickly.

This year has been a big year for LGBTQ gamers. Tracer and Overwatch made headlines. Shovel Knight helped popularize gender swap. We had an amazing same-couple kiss on live tournament stream. Even at E3 we saw some amazing character revelations on LGBTQ light, thanks to Sony.

The conversation is growing. I encourage you all to be a part of the conversation.

I know I am often very blunt in my wording on this site, but some matters like this are just more important than others, like a single character's alt colors.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The real Smash OC is Angry Mario, the **** was up with that? So nice to see Mario actually act more like Mario this time again

 

[Deleted member]

Shish Isabelle was a costume too, gotta play fair

I didn't even mention them all, I just wanted to make a point that Miis aren't replacements for actual character representation.

I’m really wondering if Sakurai is doing something different or special with trophies this time around, he loved using trophies as filler for pic of the day last speculation cycle. It likely he could just be saving it for the last direct when they go over the vault and little has changed, but there’s apart of me that thinks there’s at least something special in store for trophies.

Part of me wants a trophy battle mode, something similar to a virtual collectible card game but with trophies instead of cards.

Part of me wonders if they could be animated now but oh boy would that be a unnecessary amount of storage space

 

[MBRedboy31]

So I guess we don't need Geno, Chrom, K.Rool, Inklings and Skull Kid all because they're represented by Mii Fighters.

Miis are a “close enough” when actually having the character isn’t happening (at least at the time) for one reason or another, not a full replacement.
Still, the flexibility of a customizable character allows them to represent anything you want them to.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

A Smash OC is way more deserving than Goku.

We have a Smash OC... He's Called Dark Pit...

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I’m really wondering if Sakurai is doing something different or special with trophies this time around, he loved using trophies as filler for pic of the day last speculation cycle. It likely he could just be saving it for the last direct when they go over the vault and little has changed, but there’s apart of me that thinks there’s at least something special in store for trophies.

Part of me wants a trophy battle mode, something similar to a virtual collectible card game but with trophies instead of cards.

Back in Melee Sakurai did say he scrapped a mode called "Trophy Battle", though he never gave any sort of detail on what it actually was. Perhaps that is another old idea he is revisiting?

 

[Deleted member]

The true Smash OC is the fusion between Ridley and a mistake

Miis are a “close enough” when actually having the character isn’t happening (at least at the time) for one reason or another, not a full replacement.
Still, the flexibility of a customizable character allows them to represent anything you want them to.

But it shouldn't be "eh Miis already exist, no need to add X"

 

[osby]

The real Smash OC is Angry Mario, the **** was up with that? So nice to see Mario actually act more like Mario this time again

To be honest, a lot of characters have different personalities in Smash: Roy and Captain Falcon was kinda inevitable but Shulk almost acts like Reyn.

And let's not get into English dub Lucina.

 

[Frostwraith]

...but no? That's what kept him out of the game. He got into the game because he's popular. Because he's a freaking space dragon.

People have even implied he plays similar to Charizard and that hasn't bothered his fans because they wanted him for more than just how he would play.

Representation aside why is it a foreign conecpt to you that people like characters because they are characters and not just for their mechanics? Asking this as nicely as possible.

People can like characters for being characters, as I do too.

All I'm just saying is that gameplay is what matters the most in a game. That shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp.

But I guess I'm the bad guy here for suggesting that gameplay is the deciding factor in getting characters in the game, which is a fact.

Most character supporters try to come up with concepts for how the character would play, for an obvious reason: the developers listen to us and know which characters we want. They know what's popular and they'll pick the popular characters that are viable additions to the game. Being popular is enough and it's what puts a character in consideration. Whether the character meshes well with the game is the deciding factor out of many wanted characters due to how huge a crossover game Smash is.

I'm just saying that gameplay is the best and perhaps only viable argument for putting a character in the game. All the rest is an aside. A nice thing to have but not the essential to a game like Smash.

But, of course, I'm the bad guy for stating some facts as someone interested in game development and Smash Bros. development.

When someone who suggests that characters should be supported on the basis of gameplay is demonized by the game's fanbase, I begin questioning whether people here actually play the game or not. And I'm not even a super hardcore competitive player.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

 

[Pyra]

We have a Smash OC... He's Called Dark Pit...

Pittoo didn't originate in Smash

gimme tabuu

 

[pupNapoleon]

Miis are a “close enough” when actually having the character isn’t happening (at least at the time) for one reason or another, not a full replacement.
Still, the flexibility of a customizable character allows them to represent anything you want them to.

The Mii characters seem to be heavily minimized this go around (not just in lack of costumes, of which we have no real idea for basing in this game, but overall in their billing).

Mii's are not 'close enough.' Even in Sm4sh, they seem to have been a, "we are developing the next character to also be this." In terms of statistically, this is true.

(sorry for the double post... whoops... but this really should not be fused given the nature of the LGBTQ conversation. Please dont do it, mods)

I'm curious to your point on what I posted, Frostwraith
I agree on gameplay. But here is my point below.

In some regards, perhaps sexual orientation does not matter, for some games. Like Space Invaders.

In other ways, games are art, and rely on emotion and story. The latter two are dependent heavily on character motivation. Character motivation is immensely impacted by sexual orientation.

 

[Starbound]

So box theory still looks infallible, yes?

 

[Deleted member]

"If you were to think about it, these characters are just gameplay. No one cares about Ridley, they care about his doubke air jump."

 

[Androobie]

this site is ok with literal nazis, mods won't give you **** and will even defend you

Is it really that hard for mods to say that Nazis are bad? Is it really?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Presumably a Smash fan, presumably liked at least one of the previous games, notices Ultimate has everyone in that roster in the game, then says the roster's bad.

I judge rosters by the good and the bad, not just the good.

 

[AugustusB]

So box theory still looks infallible, yes?

Only way for it to be disproven now is Verge is right, but Shadow (example) is shown instead.

 

[MSmariosonic]

I judge rosters by the good and the bad, not just the good.

Out of curiosity..

How would the roster of Ultimate look good in your eyes?

Which veterans would you cut and which newcomers would you add?