Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

I hate when people try to force a character to be gay. Also Isabelle is not pansexual...the joke is she’s a dog and loves you unconditionally. I’m sure you can MAKE/pretend shes pansexual but to do it with you, the mayor, no.

Panromantic. Happy?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Also, there's Bowser Jr. So Nintendo characters have sex. *shock and horror*

Considering Fire Emblem, that’s no surprise

 

[pupNapoleon]

Does anyone think we could get some Smash news October?

The game comes out in 80 days. It would be HORRIBLE marketing to *not* get some news in October.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Not wanting to add to much fire to the LGBT discourse, like why is there even discourse? But two things.

1. I don't think anyone was mentioning quotas, just celebrating relatable characters. I think it's weird whenever minority characters are brought up in Smash some of the first things to argue are "We shouldn't pick them because they're black/female/gay!" Uh yeah. But guess what, I want Twintelle for a million reasons, and I will also celebrate the fact she's a black female Nintendo character. Idk it's just weird how defensive people get about others being excited about representation.

2. Reducing sexualities to "who they want to have sex with" is not fair. Sure sexuality is poorly named, but it encompasses more than just sex, so no if someone is talking about Isabelle being bi (mayor sexual really lol) then they aren't talking about her sleeping with characters. Like please don't demean homosexuals as purely sexual beings (once again despite it being in the name).

Anyway I'm glad that I've realized both Bayo and Isabelle are pretty canonically not straight, makes me feel better about Corrin (I ****ing hate Corrin).

 

[AzureFlame4]

Also, there's Bowser Jr. So Nintendo characters have sex. *shock and horror*

Reminder that thanks to Yoshi's Island we know babies in the Mario universe are canonically brought by a stork. No sex to be had there.

 

[Kuon]

I'm not gonna knock you for such an opinion, but I will ask a question. Heckin'... why?

I blame it on anime. When I first started watching anime, it had girls as the primary focus and as the main characters, so I adopted that mentality

 

[MSmariosonic]

It's easy to dismiss representation when most characters represent you, it's normal for you.

To be frank,

as an overweight Eastern European adolescent male who's the child of immigrants I never felt represented in any kind of media.

There was this one villain in Uncharted 2... but he was just a well written character.
I also liked Dr. Doom way before I knew Latveria was suppossed to be in eastern europe.

I play games to escape reality and looking for a character to identify as is the last thing i'm going to do.

But then again that's just me. Make of it what you will.

...


Anyway

Can't wait to see Ken's smokin' blonde hair again in Ultimate!

with presumably not a banana shaped design

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Anyway I'm glad that I've realized both Bayo and Isabelle are pretty canonically not straight, makes me feel better about Corrin (I ****ing hate Corrin).

I honestly thought Bayo's personality was enough to show people she isn't 100% straight.

 

[Momotsuki]

I feel like trying to throw in one's two cents into this discussion without getting lynched is the equivalent of running through a minefield so I'll probably stay out of this one.

 

[Cosmic77]

I mean, having a more diverse roster matters as it can bring in a lot of fans who maybe didn’t feel connected to any of the characters prior, so that in itself is never a bad thing. The only issue I have with this is that there isn’t a whole lot of source material to use. As in, beyond the characters who are already in the game here aren’t many other Nintendo characters who are outwardly LGBTQ, there are few characters of color, etc... You can only add what you have.

The issue is that because it’s a video game, and a video game based on popular/iconic characters fighting each other, and it’s now a focus for the eSports opportunities, gameplay has become more important than ever. If the gameplay suffers because only characters who fit particular demographics are added, you miss a major component of a video game...good gameplay.

Honestly, you have to find a balance. If you went about the game only focusing on one or the other, it wouldn’t necessarily be a good game. I think Sakurai does the best he can with what he has, to please as many people as he possibly can.

I don't have a problem with females, LGBT, or characters of color getting in Smash, but I don't think they should get added in Smash just because of it.

If there's a popular and iconic LGBT character who has moveset potential, I'd say go for it. If not, I would just drop the idea and look for someone else. This is a video game. Using this line of thinking to appeal to different groups of people is bound to receive more controversy and criticism than the current method of selecting characters Sakurai is using.

Personally, I'd recommend connecting with existing characters on the roster. There's plenty of other criteria to look at besides gender and color.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Reminder that thanks to Yoshi's Island we know babies in the Mario universe are canonically brought by a stork. No sex to be had there.

Human babies. Koopa's are made the ole fashion way. But I picked a random character out of a hat. I'm sure there's plenty of Nintendo RPGs and such that imply it, if not outright saying it. It's just weird seeing people having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea *gaps* of sexual content, implied or otherwise, in a... Nintendo game. But they're games I haven't played, so I can't think of a character myself.

Also, yeah my main concern for the past month was given the debate around stages, why a gaming outlet hasn't asked Nintendo if 103 stages were the total. Because if it were the total, they could clarify it. If it weren't, they'd stay silent. It's seemingly pretty silent...

 

[Mega Bidoof]

*implying Bowser Jr. isn't result of gemmation*

How many times do I have to remind you people that it’s canon Mario lore that Bowser empregnated Shigeru Miyamoto, who then gave birth to Bowser Jr.

Miyamoto said it himself.

 

[Frostwraith]

If people actually read my posts, I never said anything negative about female or LGBT characters.

I just don't care because gameplay is more important and that's what I want to talk about in regards to characters in Smash. That's what matters in the grand scheme of things because we're talking about a game, not feminism or LGBT rights of fictional characters.

It's good that we have more female characters and more villains in Smash as of Ultimate, as there was a lack of these in earlier titles and a lot of requested characters fit into those descriptions, but those were never the defining factor of those characters getting into Smash in the first place.

The roster is quite diverse as is, but it's primarily because the characters have different abilities, different traits that influence gameplay and translate into fun viable movesets.

I was a big supporter of Dark Pit for Smash 3DS/Wii U and was happy with his inclusion (and his return in Smash Ultimate) but I don't actually play as him all that often because Pit's gameplay style simply doesn't do much for me. Likewise, I never touched a MGS game but Snake is one of my all-time favorite characters in Smash.

 

[Nekoo]

I'm just happy to have famous video game Characters together because it's hype as **** and their game changed the industry.
I don't care about their sexuality as it's never the main reason of their inclusion or of their games.

But if people are happy because they can relate to the Characters because of their sexuality. Sure.
Just don't force it on other people who are here for a fighting game and hyped for character inclusion in general.

The same goes in the other side. Don't shame People for identifying with those Characters because of that.

We all have our reason to love Characters. Don't make a war out of it.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Um, what you have against this game now?

What could you possibly have against the game??

Unlike the past games, it shafted newcomers in favor of bringing back veterans, even ones that shouldn't have come back. And unlike most of you, I don't consider the roster good just cause of the size. IMO the roster's actually kind of bad.

If there's DLC, we can have a good newcomer amount, which I wanted all along.

 

[pupNapoleon]

As someone who's gay, I'd love to talk about sexuality of characters, but the viscerally angry reactions people have just make me sad. And if we can't talk about it, fine so long as we aren't reinforcing a double standard where it's okay to talk about a straight character's sexuality. Also, sexuality isn't a political topic (the perception of which leads it to the double standards).

This relates to my actual job on a daily basis... unfortuntately, violence is much more acceptable in most cultures than sexuality.
Sexuality is a lens through which we perceive the world. It is an immensely important aspect of anyone's self identity that often gets relegated to not being safe outdoor conversation.

Also, there's Bowser Jr. So Nintendo characters have sex. *shock and horror*

Pichu

 

[MSmariosonic]

Unlike the past games, it shafted newcomers in favor of bringing back veterans, even ones that shouldn't have come back. And unlike most of you, I don't consider the roster good just cause of the size. IMO the roster's actually kind of bad.

If there's DLC, we can have a good newcomer amount, which I wanted all along.

You forgot to add "" in your post

 

[SubstituteGamer0]

even ones that shouldn't have come back

Why shouldn't they, they all have fans and supporters and it must feel even worse having you favorite character taken out of the game than having them become an A.T just because some people don't think they deserve a spot.

 

[Deleted member]

That is your choice, but honestly, you're just holding yourself back that way.

You could be missing out on fun characters in Smash that have a more fitting gameplay style for you and miss out on whole games because they don't have female MCs.

It's like playing a Metroid game because Samus is a girl but not enjoying 2D platformers at all.

Full disclosure here: the main reason I got into Smash was because it was a hype inducing crossover of various games and had both Mario and Pokémon characters, who were the only characters I could even recognize out of the entire roster, and it got me into various Nintendo franchises.

But reason why I still play Smash is because it's such a fun and unique game in terms of gameplay and style. There's hardly anything like it in the industry and many have tried to replicate the success of this franchise to no results.


This a thousand times.

The only difference is that gender and sexual orientation bring up all the politics alongside it, so it makes discussion automatically more toxic and vitriolic, but it's the same ****.


Corrin comes from a ****ty game with poorly written characters. Still a fun character to play as in Smash. Your point is null and void.

Also people didn't know jack**** about Fire Emblem back when Melee released but they still liked the characters from that game despite going wtf at a first glance, but then played as them and were fun to play as.

So, my point stands. Cool characters with cool abilities and, most importantly, fun gameplay matters the most. Marth is one of the top tiers in Melee for a reason. He's well designed, viable and fun to play as.

tl;dr - I don't give a **** about representation because that shouldn't be the deciding factor in which characters get in the game. I'd rather have some obscure "wtf is this" character that is fun to play as than some "OMG LGBT representative, how progressive" kind of character that has a boring and not fun gameplay design.

I'm done with this discussion.

You don't speak for everyone so don't act like you do. A lot of factors play into what character one likes to play, it isn't just about gameplay. You're telling me characters are just function and gameplay is the inly determining factor.
What you personally care about is not what others do or do not. Honestly, I expected better from you, dude.

 

[Frostwraith]

Reminder that Ridley has been heavily requested for over a decade and it took this long for him to finally be in the game.

Why? Gameplay.

Sakurai couldn't figure out a way to make him work. Yes, he was this big, badass villainous alien dragon that murders people with a sadistic glee, commands an army of pirates across the universe, and all that cool **** about Ridley.

Sakurai didn't find a way to make him a fun and viable Smash character until now. That's what kept him out of the previous games' rosters.

Not bias against Metroid characters, not bias against villains, not any of the conspiracy theories this fanbase loves to come up with.

Sakurai simply couldn't find a viable way to make him work in his strict standards. You see why I insist so much with gameplay? This is why. It's what gets characters in the game.

 

[osby]

Unlike the past games, it shafted newcomers in favor of bringing back veterans, even ones that shouldn't have come back. And unlike most of you, I don't consider the roster good just cause of the size. IMO the roster's actually kind of bad.

If there's DLC, we can have a good newcomer amount, which I wanted all along.

Firstly, I'm sorry you couldn't get more newcomers but who should and shouldn't be in the game is most of the time pretty subjective.

Secondly, roster have all previous characters. I get liking a specific group better but having no cuts ensures everybody's previous ideal rosters is in the game.

 

[Nekoo]

I miss the Goku talk now.

 

[Momotsuki]

I miss the Goku talk now.

You and me both.

 

[CosmicQuark]

How many times do I have to remind you people that it’s canon Mario lore that Bowser empregnated Shigeru Miyamoto, who then gave birth to Bowser Jr.

Miyamoto said it himself.

Reading this in crazy Charlie Day's voice is amazing.

You forgot to add "" in your post

Presumably a Smash fan, presumably liked at least one of the previous games, notices Ultimate has everyone in that roster in the game, then says the roster's bad.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Also, yeah my main concern for the past month was given the debate around stages, why a gaming outlet hasn't asked Nintendo if 103 stages were the total. Because if it were the total, they could clarify it. If it weren't, they'd stay silent. It's seemingly pretty silent...

Yeah this is important, if it is an error like a lot people are insisting it is, a correction should come soon; anyone remember when that Canadian Nintendo rep said Rayman while listing some playable characters in Smash 4, and then a correction was issued afterward? Plus if there really are no more new stages, it's not like correcting it would spoil any content when we would have already been shown all the stages.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

There is only one character who we know for sure is a fully wholesome and innocent straight person...and that’s
There is only one character who we know for sure is a fully wholesome and innocent LGBT character...that’s

I miss the Goku talk now.

We don’t need to talk about Goku since we have in Smash

 

[pupNapoleon]

If there's DLC, we can have a good newcomer amount, which I wanted all along.

Also... the thought that there could possibly not be DLC is not considering everything Nintendo has at stake right now. Such as the online system.
There will be DLC. There will *absolutely* be DLC.

 

[?????????????]

It's been a bit, but I did a new video! This one's about how many characters we potentially have left.

 

[Frostwraith]

You don't speak for everyone so don't act like you do. A lot of factors play into what character one likes to play, it isn't just about gameplay. You're telling me characters are just function and gameplay is the inly determining factor.
What you personally care about is not what others do or do not. Honestly, I expected better from you, dude.

Facts don't get in the way of feelings. I just state the facts.

Whether you like it or not, it's gameplay that puts characters in the game or leaves them out of the playable roster.

That and time constraints because game development doesn't go on forever and human resources are also limited.

That's why all the "oh, but the character is a villain/female/gay/from this series/this/that/whatever" is irrelevant to Smash speculation.

Also see my post about Ridley and see if it's not proof of the truth of what I say.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

If people actually read my posts, I never said anything negative about female or LGBT characters.

I just don't care because gameplay is more important and that's what I want to talk about in regards to characters in Smash. That's what matters in the grand scheme of things because we're talking about a game, not feminism or LGBT rights of fictional characters.

I personally never said you did. However if you don't want to talk about it fine, but if others want to, you shouldn't squash their conversation because it doesn't intrest you.

As far as I know talking about the sexualities of characters in the game is still fair game for the general discussion thread.

On a related note I don't think Smash has an issue of not enough representation, I think Nintendo does (although they are definitely improving). Sakurai can only add what he has available to him. I'm personally hoping to see more LGBT friendly avatar options in other Nintendo RPGs/games.

 

[osby]

Reminder that Ridley has been heavily requested for over a decade and it took this long for him to finally be in the game.

Why? Gameplay.

Sakurai couldn't figure out a way to make him work. Yes, he was this big, badass villainous alien dragon that murders people with a sadistic glee, commands an army of pirates across the universe, and all that cool **** about Ridley.

Sakurai didn't find a way to make him a fun and viable Smash character until now. That's what kept him out of the previous games' rosters.

Not bias against Metroid characters, not bias against villains, not any of the conspiracy theories this fanbase loves to come up with.

Sakurai simply couldn't find a viable way to make him work in his strict standards. You see why I insist so much with gameplay? This is why. It's what gets characters in the game.

A total number of zero people suggested that characters should get into the game because their gender/colour/whatever. People are just saying they like it when a character is not straight/male etc.

Sonic is one of my favourite characters but I suck at playing as him. This doesn't prevent me gushing over his voice lines, animations or general presence in the game. But Zelda is my main and I started playing as her because she was one of the only girls in Brawl.

Gameplay is a big deal, but it doesn't prevent people from liking characters' personalities, be it in Smash or in their own game.

 

[BrytonJ]

Isabelle isn't ready to get in a relationship right now. She's very much focused on her career at this stage in her life, thank you very much.

Either than or maybe she's married to the nice girl mail pelican? I don't know I haven't decided what's canon yet.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

It's been a bit, but I did a new video! This one's about how many characters we potentially have left.

Dude I had a correction for your video but I forget what it was! Argh I'll have to rewatch and let you know.

Great video though!

EDIT: Oh I think I remember. I know it's just speculation, but you mention how there's always 3 characters a week. Well there usually is, but we have gotten weeks of just 2. It's completely possible we could slow down on veteran reveals to make up for time.

I know you said it yourself that it's not iron clad speculation to predict based off how much time we have left, but I just wanted to point out that possibility. Great video none the less!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"we don't need quotas"
"WE NEED MORE VILLAINS"
The chart is a circle. Also did I really see someone say adding LGBT characters would harm the gameplay? Just admit you're homophobic, this site is ok with literal nazis, mods won't give you **** and will even defend you

 

[pupNapoleon]

In some regards, perhaps sexual orientation does not matter, for some games. Like Space Invaders.

In other ways, games are art, and rely on emotion and story. The latter two are dependent heavily on character motivation. Character motivation is immensely impacted by sexual orientation.

 

[AzureFlame4]

So does Linkle count as a triforce wielder? Because I can see her being added since Smash lacks in Zelda representation that isn't triforce users.

 

[CroonerMike]

"we don't need quotas"
"WE NEED MORE VILLAINS"
The chart is a circle. Also did I really see someone say adding LGBT characters would harm the gameplay? Just admit you're homophobic, this site is ok with literal nazis, mods won't give you **** and will even defend you

It’s got nazis on both sides. I hate the homophobic losers just as much as I hate the social justice losers.

 

[Kuon]

That is your choice, but honestly, you're just holding yourself back that way.

You could be missing out on fun characters in Smash that have a more fitting gameplay style for you and miss out on whole games because they don't have female MCs.

It's like playing a Metroid game because Samus is a girl but not enjoying 2D platformers at all.

I mean, I've played every character in the game and I know how they all play. I've been playing since 2000 so I don't think I'm missing out on any characters. But if I had just started playing recently and if I had only ever played as females then yes I would be missing out on a lot of character potential. Even with the new characters in Ultimate, I'm still going to try them all out, just to see how they play, but I have all my mains figured out and they're all girls

 

[Soulsaint]

The Ike being gay stuff is fairly ambiguous and open to interpretation, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he is.

Why do I like playing as Ike in Smash?

Well, I did like Radiant Dawn and Ike was a well-written main character, so he's a character I'm familiar with and recognize.

But that's Radiant Dawn. Radiant Dawn isn't Smash.

Ike's moveset in Smash is fun. I usually like heavyweight characters overall and his gameplay style happens to be to my liking. That is why I still play as Ike often. He's a fun character to play as.

The fact I've played his game is irrelevent. The fact he could be gay is irrelevant. Good gameplay means good characters in Smash.

Meanwhile I am over here playing Duck Hunt duo because I like ducks

 

[Frostwraith]

A total number of zero people suggested that characters should get into the game because their gender/colour/whatever. People are just saying they like it when a character is not straight/male etc.

Sonic is one of my favourite characters but I suck at playing as him. This doesn't prevent me gushing over his voice lines, animations or general presence in the game. But Zelda is my main and I started playing as her because she was one of the only girls in Brawl.

Gameplay is a big deal, but it doesn't prevent people from liking characters' personalities, be it in Smash or in their own game.

Character personalities and traits are always a nice touch to have and, well, adds character to the characters.

But in a game like Smash, the only traits that matter are the inherent abilities of the character as a fighter. The rest pops up in taunts and victory poses but it's all aesthetic.

I'm just saying that characters in Smash are primarily defined by gameplay and design over anything else the characters may have for them, hence my Ridley example. Him being this super popular villain character to meme degrees isn't what got him in the game, or he would have been in Brawl ten years ago.