Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[AzureFlame4]

For me, Smash just won't be complete until we get representation for Lawyers and detectives (Not even a detective Pikachu costume, smh.) We've got Ninjas, Plumbers, Firemen (I think that's one of G&W's moves. If not, Pac-man uses a fire hydrant), yoga instructors, marathon runners, professional climbers, bounty hunters, like a dozen soldiers and members of royalty, a doctor and now even someone's secretary. Wtf Sakurai?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That moment when you realize Isabelle is probably the closest thing we have to Hello Kitty in Smash... Except she's a pupper.

And Lucario is a suitable Goku stand-in so we don't need that guy either.

 

[Zinith]

Good thing I'll mostly miss the politics conversation as I'm about to call it a night...

 

[The_Naraotor]

I think we should go back to discussing LGBT characters in Smash.
View attachment 165103
View attachment 165102
Because need I remind you that Bisabelle is our newest one?

So Captain Jack Harkness and Isabelle are in the same spot pansexual ah no forget it Captain Jack Harkness is Omnisexual I think ?

 

[MSmariosonic]

For me, Smash just won't be complete until we get representation for Lawyers and detectives (Not even a detective Pikachu costume, smh.) We've got Ninjas, Plumbers, Firemen (I think that's one of G&W's moves. If not, Pac-man uses a fire hydrant), yoga instructors, marathon runners, professional climbers, bounty hunters, like a dozen soldiers and members of royalty, a doctor and now even someone's secretary. Wtf Sakurai?

Well, at least Kirby is named after that one lawyer who helped Nintendo out with that lawsuit from universal regarding 'Donkey Kong'.

Hey, it's something. :v

 

[Frostwraith]

Thinking about with whom a certain character would sleep with in bed is one of the last things I would think about. Especially in a Nintendo game.

A roster shouldn't be built around only representation.

I never liked my favorite characters because they fill in a certain quota.
I never only liked Balrog because he's a black man. I like Balrog because he's freaking Balrog.
I never only liked The Boss because she's a strong independent female. I like her because she's The freakin' Boss.

Also this whole discussion leans too much towards politics.

This.

Also, some of the characters I like as characters in Smash, I don't really play well as them. The gameplay doesn't stick with me all too well. For example, Dark Pit is one such character. And there's plenty of stories of people supporting a character so massively only to not do well with them because their gameplay style isn't to their liking.

Likewise, some characters I like to play as in Smash are characters whose games I never played and don't really care about. I like the characters because they're fun to play as.

Ganondorf is the one character I legit like as a character (he's a badass cunning villain that combines intelligence and strength and makes for a formidable foe for Link and Zelda in their games) and that I find his gameplay style is plain fun.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

We have Ike, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Isabelle. More would be nice but I think we're fine.

 

[Curious Villager]

For me, Smash just won't be complete until we get representation for Lawyers and detectives (Not even a detective Pikachu costume, smh.) We've got Ninjas, Plumbers, Firemen (I think that's one of G&W's moves. If not, Pac-man uses a fire hydrant), yoga instructors, marathon runners, professional climbers, bounty hunters, like a dozen soldiers and members of royalty, a doctor and now even someone's secretary. Wtf Sakurai?

Don't forget Professor representations. Unless that's what you meant with detectives...

 

[osby]

Thinking about with whom a certain character would sleep with in bed is one of the last things I would think about. Especially in a Nintendo game.

A roster shouldn't be built around only representation.

I never liked my favorite characters because they fill in a certain quota.
I never only liked Balrog because he's a black man. I like Balrog because he's freaking Balrog.
I never only liked The Boss because she's a strong independent female. I like her because she's The freakin' Boss.

Also this whole discussion leans too much towards politics.

A lot of people refer to romantic attraction as "sexuality" too, it's easier.

I can say wanting not-straight characters is like wanting more girls or villains, but admittedly that aspect isn't visible in Smash, so it's understandable why people don't care. I don't root for a character just because they are gay, but if I like them already, it helps.

Also, we didn't talked about politics, just who Isabelle wants to hold hands with (who just happens to be a civil servant).

 

[PlasmaDam]

The Box Theroy is just the same as The chair theroy Doesnt have a lot of evidence and a lot of people think its true

 

[osby]

We have Ike, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Isabelle. More would be nice but I think we're fine.

Not to open a debate but Snake?

 

[AzureFlame4]

Don't forget Professor representations. Unless that's what you meant with detectives...

Yeah, I was going for him, Ayumi Tachibana and Kyle Hyde with detectives. (As well as any other detective characters)

 

[MSmariosonic]

The Box Theroy is just the same as The chair theroy Doesnt have a lot of evidence and a lot of people think its true

The box theory has more evidence than the chair theory though.

The only thing the chair theory had going for it was the previous appearance of Sakurai and the furniture during E3 (which was a stretch).

 

[CosmicQuark]

As someone who's gay, I'd love to talk about sexuality of characters, but the viscerally angry reactions people have just make me sad. And if we can't talk about it, fine so long as we aren't reinforcing a double standard where it's okay to talk about a straight character's sexuality. Also, sexuality isn't a political topic (the perception of which leads it to the double standards).

Also, there's Bowser Jr. So Nintendo characters have sex. *shock and horror*

Oh, and in terms of Smash speculation. Um, um. How long do we wait for a CoroCoro correction before we can all be happy and positive about more stages, potentially newcomers?

 

[Frostwraith]

The Ike being gay stuff is fairly ambiguous and open to interpretation, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he is.

Why do I like playing as Ike in Smash?

Well, I did like Radiant Dawn and Ike was a well-written main character, so he's a character I'm familiar with and recognize.

But that's Radiant Dawn. Radiant Dawn isn't Smash.

Ike's moveset in Smash is fun. I usually like heavyweight characters overall and his gameplay style happens to be to my liking. That is why I still play as Ike often. He's a fun character to play as.

The fact I've played his game is irrelevent. The fact he could be gay is irrelevant. Good gameplay means good characters in Smash.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Not to open a debate but Snake?

IIRC, his series does have LGBT characters but they aren't in Smash. Snake can't have any biological kids and in an alternate reality where war is everything, that stuff doesn't matter.

 

[Pazzo.]

I was going to express my feelings on yet another "who do Smash characters want to sleep with" discussion but I just want us to move on.

 

[Captain Fun]

Thinking about with whom a certain character would sleep with in bed is one of the last things I would think about. Especially in a Nintendo game.

A roster shouldn't be built around only representation.

I never liked my favorite characters because they fill in a certain quota.
I never only liked Balrog because he's a black man. I like Balrog because he's freaking Balrog.
I never only liked The Boss because she's a strong independent female. I like her because she's The freakin' Boss.

Also this whole discussion leans too much towards politics.

I agree that no roster should be built around just representation, and Smash obviously isn't. Nobody is arguing that any characters should be added only for the sake of filling some sort of quota.

People just like having characters that they can identify with, even if it's in a small way. It's something that gets taken for granted a lot by most of the player base. Like I don't want to get too political about it but if someone liked Balrog in part because he was black and they identified with that in some way, then that's just as valid a reason as any.

I guess what I'm saying is that characters that can do both make more people happy.

 

[osby]

As someone who's gay, I'd love to talk about sexuality of characters, but the viscerally angry reactions people have just make me sad. And if we can't talk about it, fine so long as we aren't reinforcing a double standard where it's okay to talk about a straight character's sexuality. Also, sexuality isn't a political topic (the perception of which leads it to the double standards).

Also, there's Bowser Jr. So Nintendo characters have sex. *shock and horror*

Oh, and in terms of Smash speculation. Um, um. How long do we wait for a CoroCoro correction before we can all be happy and positive about more stages, potentially newcomers?

*implying Bowser Jr. isn't result of gemmation*

Anyway, I kinda hope we'll get a confirmation soon, or people are possibly going to hype themselves for nothing.

 

[Kuon]

Most people don't care about characters being gay or not, or male or female, or whatever. They want cool characters with cool abilities. That's what sells the game.

They want fun characters in a game with good gameplay.

People wouldn't even tell if Isabelle or Corrin could crush on/date characters of their same gender unless they played their games and looked out for that detail. What do you want?

Most people, probably. But I'm one of those (few?) people who do care about gender in videogames. And to me it doesn't matter how awesome a character plays in Smash Bros, if they're not female, I won't play as them. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but if I have a choice between a guy or girl, I pick the girl every time. The characters I play in Smash are all female, even though I personally like the way some of the male fighters play as a lot better, but because they're male, I won't play as them. So gender does matter quite a lot in games.

 

[osby]

Most people, probably. But I'm one of those (few?) people who do care about gender in videogames. And to me it doesn't matter how awesome a character plays in Smash Bros, if they're not female, I won't play as them. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but if I have a choice between a guy or girl, I pick the girl every time. The characters I play in Smash are all female, even though I personally like the way some of the male fighters play as a lot better, but because they're male, I won't play as them. So gender does matter quite a lot in games.

Um, don't you play as some male characters? *ahemLucasandFalcoahem*

 

[Momotsuki]

Most people, probably. But I'm one of those (few?) people who do care about gender in videogames. And to me it doesn't matter how awesome a character plays in Smash Bros, if they're not female, I won't play as them. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but if I have a choice between a guy or girl, I pick the girl every time. The characters I play in Smash are all female, even though I personally like the way some of the male fighters play as a lot better, but because they're male, I won't play as them. So gender does matter quite a lot in games.

I'm not gonna knock you for such an opinion, but I will ask a question. Heckin'... why?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

The Ike being gay stuff is fairly ambiguous and open to interpretation, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he is.

Why do I like playing as Ike in Smash?

Well, I did like Radiant Dawn and Ike was a well-written main character, so he's a character I'm familiar with and recognize.

But that's Radiant Dawn. Radiant Dawn isn't Smash.

Ike's moveset in Smash is fun. I usually like heavyweight characters overall and his gameplay style happens to be to my liking. That is why I still play as Ike often. He's a fun character to play as.

The fact I've played his game is irrelevent. The fact he could be gay is irrelevant. Good gameplay means good characters in Smash.

Cool. I might use Ike more often in this game because he's ****in gay. It works both ways. We both enjoy the same character for different reasons.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Most people, probably. But I'm one of those (few?) people who do care about gender in videogames. And to me it doesn't matter how awesome a character plays in Smash Bros, if they're not female, I won't play as them. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but if I have a choice between a guy or girl, I pick the girl every time. The characters I play in Smash are all female, even though I personally like the way some of the male fighters play as a lot better, but because they're male, I won't play as them. So gender does matter quite a lot in games.

Really?

You are entitled to your own opinion but it sure is an odd mentality to have.

It's not that it's sexism but it's odd nonetheless.

 

[Kuon]

Um, don't you play as some male characters? *ahemLucasandFalcoahem*

No I don't play as them. I used to when I was younger, but that was before I cared about playing as girls

 

[Cosmic77]

I'll admit, wanting a character because of their gender or sexual orientation isn't too different than wanting a character because "we need more villains" or "we need more brunettes". That being said, none of these things are good grounds for supporting a character.

I get that people like getting characters they can identify with, but simple things like this should have little to no impact on who gets chosen. Look at the character in terms of moveset potential and iconicness, not representation of a specific group.

 

[Deleted member]

Do characters in Smash Bros. have some big neon light saying they're gay or not? No.

Do characters in Smash have some big neon light saying how well-written they are? No.

Most people don't care about characters being gay or not, or male or female, or whatever. They want cool characters with cool abilities. That's what sells the game.

I mean, you don't speak for everyone. And if you think representation doesn't sell stuff then oh boy do I have some news for you.

People wouldn't even tell if Isabelle or Corrin could crush on/date characters of their same gender unless they played their games and looked out for that detail. What do you want?

People wouldn't know jack**** about the characters they're playing without playing their games or looking it up. Your point?

Thinking about with whom a certain character would sleep with in bed is one of the last things I would think about. Especially in a Nintendo game.

A roster shouldn't be built around only representation.

I never liked my favorite characters because they fill in a certain quota.
I never only liked Balrog because he's a black man. I like Balrog because he's freaking Balrog.
I never only liked The Boss because she's a strong independent female. I like her because she's The freakin' Boss.

Also this whole discussion leans too much towards politics.

No one is talking about filling quotas.



It's easy to dismiss representation when most characters represent you, it's normal for you. But there are people who don't get to see themselves in every piece of media they consume. And the outcries over minorities getting represented as being "pandering" just proves that the people who do try to act as if "it doesn't matter" do care because they see media that doesn't represent them as personal attacks. All people want is to be represented, is that really too much to ask for? And if you think it's "meaningless" or "insignificant", then tell me? What is the harm? All these "minor" things help a person to relate with a character.

Let me use an example then. Izuku Midoriya, the protagonist of MHA, his birthday is July 15th. My birthday is one day later than that, and when I found that out, I was like "oh hey that's cool". It's not even the same day, but this one small thing makes me like him so much more because, hey, our birthdays are one day apart! Does it matter to his character in the long run that his birthday is July 15th? No. Is that the reason I like him? No. So should I be told it's silly and stupid to like this character I can relate to just because it doesn't affect the story?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I think it's up to the individual to find someone to relate to. That's why I like Ike, Corrin, Bayo, and maybe Isabelle. It's just a bonus!

 

[osby]

No I don't play as them. I used to when I was younger, but that was before I cared about playing as girls

I see. Well, then it's a nice thing for you that we have a lot of girls now.

I mean, I used play as Peach and Samus a lot because they're girls, but it didn't stick much. Now, depends on the character.

 

[monadoboy]

The Ike being gay stuff is fairly ambiguous and open to interpretation, but for the sake of argument, let's assume he is.

Why do I like playing as Ike in Smash?

Well, I did like Radiant Dawn and Ike was a well-written main character, so he's a character I'm familiar with and recognize.

But that's Radiant Dawn. Radiant Dawn isn't Smash.

Ike's moveset in Smash is fun. I usually like heavyweight characters overall and his gameplay style happens to be to my liking. That is why I still play as Ike often. He's a fun character to play as.

The fact I've played his game is irrelevent. The fact he could be gay is irrelevant. Good gameplay means good characters in Smash.

Hopefully the only time I join this **** discussion, but I never got the Ike gay thing. He really comes off as ace, but maybe I'm biased because I'm ace, too.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

Hopefully the only time I join this **** discussion, but I never got the Ike gay thing. He really comes off as ace, but maybe I'm biased because I'm ace, too.

A Smash Ace, if you will.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean, having a more diverse roster matters as it can bring in a lot of fans who maybe didn’t feel connected to any of the characters prior, so that in itself is never a bad thing. The only issue I have with this is that there isn’t a whole lot of source material to use. As in, beyond the characters who are already in the game there aren’t many other Nintendo characters who are outwardly LGBTQ, there are few characters of color, etc... You can only add what you have.

The issue is that because it’s a video game, and a video game based on popular/iconic characters fighting each other, and it’s now a focus for the eSports opportunities, gameplay has become more important than ever. If the gameplay suffers because only characters who fit particular demographics are added, you miss a major component of a video game...good gameplay.

Honestly, you have to find a balance. If you went about the game only focusing on one or the other, it wouldn’t necessarily be a good game. I think Sakurai does the best he can with what he has, to please as many people as he possibly can.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I sure hope so

Heck I wouldn't mind them bringing back that one coin launcher thingy from Brawl.

I enjoyed it way more than that trophy rush from smash 4.

I spent hours on that coin launcher... Trust me

 

[CosmicQuark]

Hopefully the only time I join this **** discussion, but I never got the Ike gay thing. He really comes off as ace, but maybe I'm biased because I'm ace, too.

I'm gay and ace, so they're not mutually exclusive (depending on how broad ace can be, some people have stricter definitions). But the general rule of thumb is, if a male character is hot--they could be gay.

*implying Bowser Jr. isn't result of gemmation*

Anyway, I kinda hope we'll get a confirmation soon, or people are possibly going to hype themselves for nothing.

Yeah, you would think since it'd be false advertising if it was a mistake, it would be something they would want to immediately correct. I know Nintendo doesn't like to respond to speculation, but if it's made in error, it should be corrected. At this point, I'm going to assume it's not unless they post a correction.

 

[CroonerMike]

I hate when people try to force a character to be gay. Also Isabelle is not pansexual...the joke is she’s a dog and loves you unconditionally. I’m sure you can MAKE/pretend shes pansexual but to do it with you, the mayor, no.

 

[osby]

I spent hours on that coin launcher... Trust me

You and me both.

Real talk though, why game modes in Smash never stay beyond All-Star, Special Smash and stuff? I mean, I guess you can always go back to old games for that but...

 

[Nekoo]

Wait...I missed something, but is Ike actually Gay? I remember the fan-servicey in his game, but I thought Priam was also his descendants in Awakening. (It has been a while since I played Ike's game and Awakening)

 

[AzureFlame4]

Yeah, you would think since it'd be false advertising if it was a mistake, it would be something they would want to immediately correct. I know Nintendo doesn't like to respond to speculation, but if it's made in error, it should be corrected. At this point, I'm going to assume it's not unless they post a correction.

Not posting a correction by now basically confirms it for me. You know they are getting bombarded with people asking about it. Surely they would have realized by now if it was a mistake and revealed it.

 

[Frostwraith]

Most people, probably. But I'm one of those (few?) people who do care about gender in videogames. And to me it doesn't matter how awesome a character plays in Smash Bros, if they're not female, I won't play as them. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but if I have a choice between a guy or girl, I pick the girl every time. The characters I play in Smash are all female, even though I personally like the way some of the male fighters play as a lot better, but because they're male, I won't play as them. So gender does matter quite a lot in games.

That is your choice, but honestly, you're just holding yourself back that way.

You could be missing out on fun characters in Smash that have a more fitting gameplay style for you and miss out on whole games because they don't have female MCs.

It's like playing a Metroid game because Samus is a girl but not enjoying 2D platformers at all.

Full disclosure here: the main reason I got into Smash was because it was a hype inducing crossover of various games and had both Mario and Pokémon characters, who were the only characters I could even recognize out of the entire roster, and it got me into various Nintendo franchises.

But reason why I still play Smash is because it's such a fun and unique game in terms of gameplay and style. There's hardly anything like it in the industry and many have tried to replicate the success of this franchise to no results.

I'll admit, wanting a character because of their gender or sexual orientation isn't too different than wanting a character because "we need more villains" or "we need more brunettes". That being said, none of these things are good grounds for supporting a character.

I get that people like getting characters they can identify with, but simple things like this should have little to no impact on who gets chosen. Look at the character in terms of moveset potential and iconicness, not representation of a specific group.

This a thousand times.

The only difference is that gender and sexual orientation bring up all the politics alongside it, so it makes discussion automatically more toxic and vitriolic, but it's the same ****.

Do characters in Smash have some big neon light saying how well-written they are? No.

Corrin comes from a ****ty game with poorly written characters. Still a fun character to play as in Smash. Your point is null and void.

Also people didn't know jack**** about Fire Emblem back when Melee released but they still liked the characters from that game despite going wtf at a first glance, but then played as them and were fun to play as.

So, my point stands. Cool characters with cool abilities and, most importantly, fun gameplay matters the most. Marth is one of the top tiers in Melee for a reason. He's well designed, viable and fun to play as.

tl;dr - I don't give a **** about representation because that shouldn't be the deciding factor in which characters get in the game. I'd rather have some obscure "wtf is this" character that is fun to play as than some "OMG LGBT representative, how progressive" kind of character that has a boring and not fun gameplay design.

I'm done with this discussion.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Sakurai shouldn't change his roster picking at all. I think it's up to us to find someone we relate to.