Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Over9000BPM]

We still analysing placeholder box renders and typos to death?

 

[Raspberry]

Let me get this straight. If it turns out the Box theory is true, that means we'll get 72 characters in total, with Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur counting as one character and the Miis again counting as one character. Out of these 72 characters, 7 would be echoes (the 6 we know of and the potential seventh that would be on the other side of the box). So far, so good.

How would the CSS be organized, keeping in mind that echoes can show up on their own or share a spot with the original character and that the random button must also be present?

In the first case, if they show up on their own, 72 characters + the random button = 73. Judging by the August direct which detailed the placement of echoes on the CSS, the grid of the roster is straight, which means that all rows either have the same number of characters or they differ by an even number of characters. 73 is a prime number, so it's already difficult to organize a grid of this size, since it implies the existence of 3 different row lengths, all of them being uneven.

If the echoes share the same spot with the original character, that leaves us with 66 spots, which are, indeed, way easier to organize.

The advantage of having 72 characters as the final roster number pre-DLC is that it fits Smashdown (was that the name?) quite nicely, since 72 can be divided by 2, 3 and 4, thus accounting for all player number possibilities. The next such number would be 84, which implies that Nintendo will reveal 14 more newcomers (including echoes) in the next few months. As much as I want that, it's quite unlikely. However, that seems like a nice roster to have at the end of the DLC era.

Even though the CSS prime number situation can be considered a problem design-wise, I believe that the Smashdown factor (it would be quite counter-intuitive to release a mode based on the whole roster fighting while leaving some fighters out due to bad maths) and the Box factor (the careful positioning of the characters although it's a WIP, as reflected by the French typo and it being just a render) trump both it and the fact that we're two and a half months away from release. They still have a lot to talk about besides characters, so I don't think that having only two newcomers left to reveal is the end of the world for their PR team.

 

[Mutsukki]

So, something that I was thinking.

A lot of people say that it's possible that CoroCoro messed up accidentally writing '108 stages' instead of 103, but at the same time they think that it's impossible that the person who made the design of the box art messed up placing the characters? Maybe the fact that Palutena's group is only 8 characters is because of a mistake and not because of a hidden echo. I mean, it's a possibility.

Yes, but then it's just too much of a coincidence since Verg has yet to be wrong. But it'd have to be another echo fighter, probably Shadow then.

 

[Opossum]

At the same time.

Isn't it a little insane to think they'd just say to the marketing team ''Go ahead and potentially spoil the fact there are two more left to them with your mock up 3 months ahead of release! That's fine. That's totally fine."

Especially considering how closely they've tried to play the game this time, with only one true hiccup being on their end with the Castlevania music mix up?

Honestly I think they'd just care more about the Who rather than the How Many. That's why I think they showed the side that they did.

If they showed the other side with a blank spot next to Ryu, it'd confirm Ken. But with the side they showed, it's more open to speculation due to not being an echo.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

I'm legitimately scared of the next Smash Direct.
I never thought I'd be afraid of more Smash info, but here we are.

 

[Nethermoosen]

At the same time.

Isn't it a little insane to think they'd just say to the marketing team ''Go ahead and potentially spoil the fact there are two more left to them with your mock up 3 months ahead of release! That's fine. That's totally fine."

Especially considering how closely they've tried to play the game this time, with only one true hiccup being on their end with the Castlevania music mix up?

I agree. That’s pretty weird given their statements against leaks and such.

 

[DJ3DS]

Let me get this straight. If it turns out the Box theory is true, that means we'll get 72 characters in total, with Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur counting as one character and the Miis again counting as one character. Out of these 72 characters, 7 would be echoes (the 6 we know of and the potential seventh that would be on the other side of the box). So far, so good.

How would the CSS be organized, keeping in mind that echoes can show up on their own or share a spot with the original character and that the random button must also be present?

In the first case, if they show up on their own, 72 characters + the random button = 73. Judging by the August direct which detailed the placement of echoes on the CSS, the grid of the roster is straight, which means that all lines either have the same number of characters or they differ by an even number of characters. 73 is a prime number, so it's already difficult to organize a grid of this size, since it implies the existence of 3 different line lengths, all of them being uneven.
.

Basically identically to how Melee does it. You're welcome.

 

[staindgrey]

Honestly I think they'd just care more about the Who rather than the How Many. That's why I think they showed the side that they did.

If they showed the other side with a blank spot next to Ryu, it'd confirm Ken. But with the side they showed, it's more open to speculation due to not being an echo.

In addition to that, I don't think the exec who signed off on it being sent to retailers thought, "Hey wait a minute. What if the people over on Smashboards figured out the pattern and deduced the final characters based on placement correlating to one of the leaks listed on Reddit?"

They just wanted Isabelle and Incineroar covered up, then gave it the okay.

 

[Over9000BPM]

I'm legitimately scared of the next Smash Direct.
I never thought I'd be afraid of more Smash info, but here we are.

Personally, I can’t wait, it’s going to put everyone out of their misery. Some in a “won the lottery” kind of way, and others in more of an “old yella” kind of way.

 

[T-Hell]

So can we assume the 108 stages is real if CoroCoro hasn't denied it yet?

 

[Mutsukki]

I'm legitimately scared of the next Smash Direct.
I never thought I'd be afraid of more Smash info, but here we are.

Come on, we had quite a lot already and we had some beautiful beautiful hype. I think Spirits will be big enough to also give us a lot to want about. We're getting this huge game full of characters and content, just because I'm expecting only 2 characters more it doesn't mean my hype has died. There's DLC of course, but I'm not even taking that into account, I just want to play this awesome game that seems better by the minute. I want to hear all the songs, play on the huge stage list and so on. There's much to Smash aside from newcomers and Sakurai has been warning us for that since day one.

So just take what we get from here as bonus and it'll be great when the game comes out!

 

[staindgrey]

View attachment 164952

Basically identically to how Melee does it. You're welcome.

The Unown is a nice touch for Incineroar the mystery final box theory character.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly I think they'd just care more about the Who rather than the How Many. That's why I think they showed the side that they did.

If they showed the other side with a blank spot next to Ryu, it'd confirm Ken. But with the side they showed, it's more open to speculation due to not being an echo.

Number is just as important as who.

Number can very easily sway a purchasing decision.

There's nothing saying there's not someone out there right now who subscribes to this theory that didn't get a single new character they wanted that won't buy said game.

Which is why the whole thing still rings silly and hollow to me.

Nintendo is going to care about anything that might sway the purchase decision or info getting out and this certainly would.

 

[Raspberry]

View attachment 164952

Basically identically to how Melee does it. You're welcome.

I believe that a roster of this size won't have rows of 15 characters, since it's already difficult enough to find your fighter due to the size. Having everything on 5 rows seems extremely counter-intuitive, but that's just my opinion.

 

[osby]

I'm legitimately scared of the next Smash Direct.
I never thought I'd be afraid of more Smash info, but here we are.

Smash fans, after K.Rool reveal: "I can't believe every single newcomer is from the ballot and Sakurai loves the fans! "
Smash fans, after Isabelle reveal: "I can't believe K.Rool and Ridley were the only ballot picks and the rest is all promotional. Sakurai hates from the fans! "

I expect riot if next reveal is not Geno/Skull Kid/Isaac neither.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'm going to merely jot down the leaks and theories we've seen so far and draw bit of a happy medium of a conclusion still. As it stands, I'm gonna observe what the Box Theory + Vergeben's claims if Fiery Ryu and Wrestler Kitty are indeed a thing next in this game.

However, one thing I feel might make this whack is that this'd imply we'd have one more Direct under three months' run, if it'd to reveal those two and the hypothetical Square Enix-rep on top. IDK if people are willing to wait that long, especially with "knowing" what's coming.

This is where I see the Coro Coro Stage Leak coming in telling us there's definitely more to come, so people throwing the towel or feeling disappointed that we're down to Incineroar and Ken, I must remind you of that, and how we're still under 3 months before the game's release.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

So can we assume the 108 stages is real if CoroCoro hasn't denied it yet?

Yes, they did publish it.

 

[Flynn__]

In addition to that, I don't think the exec who signed off on it being sent to retailers thought, "Hey wait a minute. What if the people over on Smashboards figured out the pattern and deduced the final characters based on placement correlating to one of the leaks listed on Reddit?"

They just wanted Isabelle and Incineroar covered up, then gave it the okay.

Yeah, but still, pattern or not the box is very clearly stating that there are only two spots left in the roster, which is quite a big statement. Yeah, they probably didn't think that some people could guess that Ken might be hiding on the other side of the box, but still, two spots! It's a weird decision to just show the box if you are playing with what the final number of characters is going to be.

 

[staindgrey]

I believe that a roster of this size won't have rows of 15 characters, since it's already difficult enough to find your fighter due to the size. Having everything on 5 rows seems extremely counter-intuitive, but that's just my opinion.

But you still have to account for the four player selections on bottom and the options bar on top, all on a 16:9 ratio screen.

I don't think you can really fit them all in any other way.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So can we assume the 108 stages is real if CoroCoro hasn't denied it yet?

Just about. It's the only thing we can 100% be sure about at this stage until next month at the very least...

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Number is just as important as who.

Number can very easily sway a purchasing decision.

There's nothing saying there's not someone out there right now who subscribes to this theory that didn't get a single new character they wanted that won't buy said game.

Which is why the whole thing still rings silly and hollow to me.

Nintendo is going to care about anything that might sway the purchase decision or info getting out and this certainly would.

No one in their right mind is going to look at a roster of 72 potentially more, like this and go

“Nope not good enough” unless they’re incredibly petty, they’ll be such a minority that nintendo won’t even have to bother trying to sell it more to them.

This is going to potentially outsell even Brawl mark my words.

 

[Opossum]

Number is just as important as who.

Number can very easily sway a purchasing decision.

There's nothing saying there's not someone out there right now who subscribes to this theory that didn't get a single new character they wanted that won't buy said game.

Which is why the whole thing still rings silly and hollow to me.

Nintendo is going to care about anything that might sway the purchase decision or info getting out and this certainly would.

I'd argue that the fact that Sakurai said explicitly not to expect too many newcomers gives them a good reason to somewhat reveal the final number. Expectations should have already been tempered in Nintendo's eyes, I'd imagine.

 

[Chrono.]

I'm legitimately scared of the next Smash Direct.
I never thought I'd be afraid of more Smash info, but here we are.

They're gonna confirm Shrek, Goku and Somecallmejohnny and you're gonna like it.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean I'm not even combating this because I have much faith in anything beyond 3 not 2.

I just....

I feel like I've taken crazy pills that a box that is subject to change and put out by Nintendo themselves is apparently the ultimate theory to some of ya'll about what's left.

A mockup of a box.

 

[KMDP]

At the same time.

Isn't it a little insane to think they'd just say to the marketing team ''Go ahead and potentially spoil the fact there are two more left to them with your mock up 3 months ahead of release! That's fine. That's totally fine."

Especially considering how closely they've tried to play the game this time, with only one true hiccup being on their end with the Castlevania music mix up?

This was my thought as well.

What staindgrey says about marketing is true, but what's also true is that a company can make misleading mock-ups (which the box might be) to mask future reveals. It's not normal, but why does it have to be?

View attachment 164952

Basically identically to how Melee does it. You're welcome.

I believe that a roster of this size won't have rows of 15 characters, since it's already difficult enough to find your fighter due to the size. Having everything on 5 rows seems extremely counter-intuitive, but that's just my opinion.

Don't forget also that that roster was made in Roster Maker, which uses Vertically long Character Images, while Smash itself uses Horizontally long Character Images, DJ3DS' hypothetical roster would be incredibly wide.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Yeah, but still, pattern or not the box is very clearly stating that there are only two spots left in the roster, which is quite a big statement. Yeah, they probably didn't think that some people could guess that Ken might be hiding on the other side of the box, but still, two spots! It's a weird decision to just show the box if you are playing with what the final number of characters is going to be.

Here’s the other kicker. If you believe there is only one echo left because of the box(hypothetically), how many newcomers do you now expect?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd argue that the fact that Sakurai said explicitly not to expect too many newcomers gives them a good reason to somewhat reveal the final number. Expectations should have already been tempered in Nintendo's eyes, I'd imagine.

Just because Sakurai said this does not = truth in this theory or it being Nintendo's mindset that revealing final number is okay.

Buddy, you're better than this.

Revealing the amount left is just as bad as revealing who is left.

I just can't see Nintendo even with a statement from Sakurai not knowing that someone would do something just as crazy as all of this is to try to find out content.

 

[TheCJBrine]

So, any theories regarding music? (not that dang website one)

From what we've seen so far, and taking Smash 4's music into account, I'd say we can estimate 200-sumthin to about 400-500 sumthin unique tracks. Unless Spirits mode or the Other section is jam-packed with more, how would we reach the total of 800?

Also, regarding the box: is it outlandish to believe that simply not every character would be on it?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

The box theory may or may not be true. We won’t officially know until either it releases or we get an echo not between Paly and Cloud or two newbies.

What’s annoying about it is it shut down everything. We can’t speculate anymore, since invariably one or more people will come in and tell us it’s impossible since the box exists. Speculation for DLC, if the box is true, should then still be valid, but all speculation here just focuses on solely Ken and Incineroar.

At this point, I’d just be interested in gettihg more news that doesn’t involve the same rehashed topics. Has anyone found any cool new mechanics from the Best Buy demos?

 

[KMDP]

They're gonna confirm Somecallmejohnny and you're gonna like it.

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

Juan Ortiz, Dr. Kawashima's Echo Fighter!

 

[Opossum]

Just because Sakurai said this does not = truth in this theory or it being Nintendo's mindset that revealing final number is okay.

Buddy, you're better than this.

Revealing the amount left is just as bad as revealing who is left.

I just can't see Nintendo even with a statement from Sakurai not knowing that someone would do something just as crazy as all of this is to try to find out content.

Everything just fits way too well that Ken and Incineroar are all that's left to me. Personally I'm banking on the Square Enix character being DLC that gets announced early a la Mewtwo.

I mean you're fine to not believe it, but saying I'm "better than this" isn't really cool, man. :/ I just think this has a lot going for it. It's the same feeling I had with the ESRB leak, and I trusted my gut then, so I'll do so again now, is all.

 

[Deleted member]

I believe that a roster of this size won't have rows of 15 characters, since it's already difficult enough to find your fighter due to the size. Having everything on 5 rows seems extremely counter-intuitive, but that's just my opinion.

Don't forget also that that roster was made in Roster Maker, which uses Vertically long Character Images, while Smash itself uses Horizontally long Character Images, DJ3DS' hypothetical roster would be incredibly wide.

Attempt 2:

In game, the bottom row would be centered. Any less than 13 splits up the N64 characters, and I hate that. This also puts all the new guys on the bottom.

 

[majora_787]

The only statements I'm accepting on the roster size in the year of our lord Dracula are that the full roster is being shown pre-launch, and the assumption that we'll be told when it's been fully revealed. Does good things for my blood pressure.

I haven't bothered to actually dig through this thread for it, but I guess as an alternative subject. I'm curious to hear Smashboards' opinions on the Castle Siege / Black Knight thing that came up after the august direct.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Everything just fits way too well that Ken and Incineroar are all that's left to me. Personally I'm banking on the Square Enix character being DLC that gets announced early a la Mewtwo.

I mean you're fine to not believe it, but saying I'm "better than this" isn't really cool, man. :/ I just think this has a lot going for it. It's the same feeling I had with the ESRB leak, and I trusted my gut then, so I'll do so again now, is all.

I mean I certainly applaud trusting your gut. I don't mean anything hurtful by saying you're better than this.

I just personally think that so many of you are smart intelligent people and I can see some reasons to believe it, but ya'll are swearing by it and it's just something to me with far too many assumptions based on ''This can't change" to make it set in stone.

You said one of them yourself just there. The Square character has to be DLC.

And that's to me why I can't co-sign. Normally I would be on a side with people of the nature that are co-signing this theory, but there's just far far far far too many variables that you guys are assuming are not gonna happen to make it work.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

People are still acting like this is the last of the Ultimate content. Dude's Vergeben has already backed up that yep, DLC is a thing and if he knows about a rep it's likely it'll happen pretty fast after release. Square Enix rep is probably DLC and it's probably Geno and itll probably happen early 2019.

 

[Raspberry]

Don't forget also that that roster was made in Roster Maker, which uses Vertically long Character Images, while Smash itself uses Horizontally long Character Images, DJ3DS' hypothetical roster would be incredibly wide.

Which brings me back to my point. Unless they indeed organize the roster in rows of 15 and a final row of 13, the other 2 feasible solutions without having 3 different row lengths or 2 row lengths that differ too much (or putting the random box on a row by itself, wasting too much screen estate to the left and to the right) would be
1. to have 5 rows of 12 characters and one of 13, but that would either make the random box stick out awkwardly if the row of 13 is the last or make the first row arbitrarily longer, which doesn't seem impossible as a last resort.
2. to have 5 rows of 11 and 2 rows of 9, which seems to occupy too much vertical space.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

People are still acting like this is the last of the Ultimate content. Dude's Vergeben has already backed up that yep, DLC is a thing and if he knows about a rep it's likely it'll happen pretty fast after release. Square Enix rep is probably DLC and it's probably Geno and itll probably happen early 2019.

He was saying Square rep a little far back for it to be a DLC decision in my personal and humble opinion, when did he first bring up his Square rep? Because I can't see Sakurai's team having started on DLC plans until the game has actually been sent off to the ESRB and nearing going gold.

The man has made far too many ''We're working hard to put the finishing touches" comments in his appearances to make me believe a Square rep became DLC.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

The box theory may or may not be true. We won’t officially know until either it releases or we get an echo not between Paly and Cloud or two newbies.

What’s annoying about it is it shut down everything. We can’t speculate anymore, since invariably one or more people will come in and tell us it’s impossible since the box exists. Speculation for DLC, if the box is true, should then still be valid, but all speculation here just focuses on solely Ken and Incineroar.

At this point, I’d just be interested in gettihg more news that doesn’t involve the same rehashed topics. Has anyone found any cool new mechanics from the Best Buy demos?

****ING EXACTLY
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THIS THEORY BUMS ME THE HELL OUT

 

[Potato_]

I was going by what I was quoting and how he laid it out with the Smash 4 DLC characters included. But you're right; PKMN Trainer isn't his own character.

But people tend to assume Pichu, Ice Climbers, Y. Link, etc. are comparable to echoes when they're really not. The only phase they skip in terms of character creation is the concept phase., since they can draw from their previous appearances. None of their data can be copied and pasted from Melee or Brawl; it's all remade from scratch within the new engine, with new hit and hurt boxes, weight and size values, attack properties, etc. to be balanced in a new game. They just get to skip the part where they're trying to imagine a moveset based on concept art.

Fair enough, balancing would take time, but I do think some of the attack properties for those two characters in particular could be reused in a sense from Smash 4. The height difference would be the real problem however.

So can we assume the 108 stages is real if CoroCoro hasn't denied it yet?

I'm going to give them a bit more time, a few days at most, before I believe it is legit.

 

[Nethermoosen]

If spirits is like SSE, who do you guys hope to see teaming up?