Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shroob]

I don't think Incineroar is a bad Pokemon by any means, but man, I REALLY wish we'd stop with the starter Pokemon altogether. They're such safe picks and so easy to implement that I can't find myself getting very excited for any of the Gen VII starters. Feels like we're choosing between three of the most basic ice cream flavors: Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry.

Why can't we get something more unexpected, like Lycan-Rocky Road or Tapu-Cookies and Cream?

I feel like Lycanroc's issue is it's Dusk forme is too new.

If Smash's project plan had been finished in 2016? Maybe. But I cannot imagine sketches for Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon being done before the base game even came out.


Dusk forme Lycanroc is the thing I think most people rally behind, because otherwise, Day and Night forme Lycanroc are just 'generic Pokemon' with no real marketing push behind them.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I don't think Incineroar is a bad Pokemon by any means, but man, I REALLY wish we'd stop with the starter Pokemon altogether. They're such safe picks and so easy to implement that I can't find myself getting very excited for any of the Gen VII starters. Feels like we're choosing between three of the most basic ice cream flavors: Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry.

Why can't we get something more unexpected, like Lycan-Rocky Road or Tapu-Cookies and Cream?

No one supported Vanilluxe, so really we only had two flavours to choose.

 

[Dandelionel]

I don't think Incineroar is a bad Pokemon by any means, but man, I REALLY wish we'd stop with the starter Pokemon altogether. They're such safe picks and so easy to implement that I can't find myself getting very excited for any of the Gen VII starters. Feels like we're choosing between three of the most basic ice cream flavors: Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry.

Why can't we get something more unexpected, like Lycan-Rocky Road or Tapu-Cookies and Cream?

Indeed, we need quality picks like Steenee

 

[CosmicQuark]

Something I've never understood.

I don't get how Incineroar is hideous.

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

While I can't speak to those who say he's hideous, my problem with Incineroar is that with Pokemon Trainer back, it doesn't make sense for a fire type pick with Gen 7 if there's other Pokemon, like Lycanroc, that add more elemental variety (and personally I'd rather have more new first party series represented in a limited roster than another Pokemon with two Pokemon vets returning). Greninja is grandfathered in, and it seems weird to redo the Water/Fire but no Grass single fighter with the elemental trio. I also prefer Decidueye's designs and mechanics, but I don't think Incineroar is hideous--just pointless. Incineroar being a wrestler doesn't do much for me. But hey, I'm glad for the fans if he's in, since I'm a genwuntooer, I don't really have a dog (or cat) in this fight.

 

[Shroob]

While I can't speak to those who say he's hideous, my problem with Incineroar is that with Pokemon Trainer back, it doesn't make sense for a fire type pick with Gen 7 if there's other Pokemon, like Lycanroc, that add more elemental variety (and personally I'd rather have more new first party series represented in a limited roster than another Pokemon with two Pokemon vets returning). Greninja is grandfathered in, and it seems weird to redo the Water/Fire but no Grass single fighter with the elemental trio. I also prefer Decidueye's designs and mechanics, but I don't think Incineroar is hideous--just pointless. Incineroar being a wrestler doesn't do much for me. But hey, I'm glad for the fans if he's in, since I'm a genwuntooer, I don't really have a dog (or cat) in this fight.

Type coverage is a fan thing to be brutally honest.

I don't think Sakurai gives a damn about balancing the types.

 

[pholtos]

Here's my counter-argument to this notion: .

Mostly .

Bulbapedia: Typhlosion is classified as a quadruped, but it is capable of bipedal movement and is frequently depicted standing on its hind legs.
Charmander: Always Biped
Cyndaquil: Always Quad
And here we go with the fighting-esque fire starters.
Torchic: Always Biped
Chimchar: Always Biped
Tepig: Quad -> Biped -> Biped
Break from the fighting for a psychic fox.
Fenniken: Quad -> Biped -> Biped
Aaaand back to fighting-esque
Litten: Quad -> Quad -> Biped

Litten breaks the cycle a tad, making it look like it'll stay Quad since it evolves to and remains a quad, unlike every other one which either was a quad throughout, biped throughout, or started as a quadruped then switched to biped once it evolved once. So naturally that threw people off.

 

[NintenRob]

Umm...

You're not thinking of Incineroar's inclusion in the right way; you're looking at it from the point of view of Type Representation and whether the Pokémon is a Starter.

Both of these views are flawed. Putting aside that Incineroar is Fire-type and a Starter, what can it bring to Smash that others haven't yet? It's Wrestling moves and Heel Persona (Decidueye would also bring something unique, and it's not because it's a Grass-type).

"Type Representation" ignores all the merits that the Pokémon itself could bring to the table; it's a problem I have with people saying "We need [x] Pokémon to represent [y] type".

I don't find "wrestling" enough of a reason, it has no interest to me, at all. And there are other Pokemon who bring something unique to the table, who are more popular, and a couple even more prominent.

I understand we'll probably get another repeat type, but do we really need another starter, we literally have 4, we already have a lot of Fire users, we ever have a number characters who use wrestling moves here and there. Pokemon is a chance to do something wild with your character, we've had ninja water frog, Anubis Jedi, electric cute mouse, a singing balloon! Winged Fire Dragon, Weird Plant dinosaur thing, water surfing turtle!

I'm sorry if I don't find Fire Wrestler as interesting of a choice.


Incineroar as far as I'm concerned, is the worst idea for a Pokemon newcomer I've seen floating around.

 

[Shroob]

I don't find "wrestling" enough of a reason, it has no interest to me, at all. And there are other Pokemon who bring something unique to the table, who are more popular, and a couple even more prominent.

I understand we'll probably get another repeat type, but do we really need another starter, we literally have 4, we already have a lot of Fire users, we ever have a number characters who use wrestling moves here and there. Pokemon is a chance to do something wild with your character, we've had ninja water frog, Anubis Jedi, electric cute mouse, a singing balloon! Winged Fire Dragon, Weird Plant dinosaur thing, water surfing turtle!

I'm sorry if I don't find Fire Wrestler as interesting of a choice.


Incineroar as far as I'm concerned, is the worst idea for a Pokemon newcomer I've seen floating around.

"Too much fire" is about as weak of an excuse as 'too many swords' or 'too much anime'...........or 'too many anime swords'.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I don't think Incineroar is a bad Pokemon by any means, but man, I REALLY wish we'd stop with the starter Pokemon altogether. They're such safe picks and so easy to implement that I can't find myself getting very excited for any of the Gen VII starters. Feels like we're choosing between three of the most basic ice cream flavors: Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry.

Why can't we get something more unexpected, like Lycan-Rocky Road or Tapu-Cookies and Cream?

What about Tsareen-Berry-Burst, Cinnamon-Salazzle or Experimental flavor Null?

 

[CosmicQuark]

Type coverage is a fan thing to be brutally honest.

I don't think Sakurai gives a damn about balancing the types.

I agree, and I agree with Verge and think Incineroar is in. I was explaining my personal (fan) distaste for the character.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Incineroar is going to cause a mountain of salt upon his reveal, 10 times worse than what poor Isabelle got.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Granted, flaming bara wrestler kitty isn't one of my favorite Fire-type designs, though to be honest?

What starter wasn't kind of generic or bland in terms of the Fire-types? Charizard is literally just a lowkey orange fire dragon; Typhlosion is just a long boi that doesn't do much for me besides naturally seeming like a more natural Quilava; Blaziken... okay, you got me; Infernape? Seem like they were trying to mimic Blaziken a little too much; Emboar? It's a cute, pudgy pig to me, but it is kinda just... eh; Delphox is one I actually didn't mind cause I'm biased toward vulpines but it's also nothing too extreme and seem like a natural progression + floofy ears.

Incineroar though? He's got more going on than quite a few of these imo.

 

[Staarih]

I'm totally okay with Incineroar, I don't mind his design at all - actually I'm kind of excited for the possibility now, as he seems like a Pokémon with fun potential in Smash. He'll likely be a more "on hands" fighter than any Pokémon we have so far. Sure, I wanted Mimikyu at first, but once it was deconfirmed, I've been pretty indifferent about the plethora of Pokémon choices to choose from.

And, I mean, we need a cat to go along with the dog (Isabelle).

 

[Shroob]

Gonna say something that'll piss off a lot of folks in three sentences.


Verg can be right and box theory can be right, and all Sakurai has to do is one thing.



"Geno has joined the battle finally. He's available to all people who purchase a Nintendo Online subscription."




He wouldn't need to be on the box if he were DLC.

 

[Xgears]

Incineroar would be a very disappointing choice.

We already have 4 starter Pokemon, including another Fully evolved fire starter.

And Incineroar was just a lame Pokemon to begin with, sure he has some fans but for the most part he's very polarising. He's just so hideous.



I hope he gets Gematsu'd. Also screw Verg and all leakers. Learn to keep you mouth shut.

The salt is real, If a leaker said a character you'd like you wouldn't have any problems with them lol.
Also I'm glad we got confirmation on that Inceniroar is the new character, it should keep expectations low and that's better.

 

[splat]

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

Not the person you're responding to, but I'll put in my two cents. Disclaimer: I don't think it's hideous, but I have quite some issues with the design.

My main gripe with the more recent (starter) Pokémon - the latest gen in particular - is that they ooze too much personality. Hear me out: for any non-Pokémon character that'd be perfect and I kind of like Incineroar's design in a vacuum, but in the Pokémon Universe it just feels... off. I feel like Pokémon, just like animals IRL, should share some traits, but also have varying personalities.

In comparison, the first fire starter, Charizard, does work as a monster IMO. I recall this episode in the anime with loads of 'zards roaming around, each with different personalities. The base design looks vicious, but also generic enough that we're able to project personalities onto them: I can imagine a bit of a pudgy, relaxed Charizard that doesn't really enjoy fighting, but also a slightly more crooked one that is almost evil. The same can be said for Sceptile, Greninja, Emboar and so on.

Since Incineroar's base design shows so much personality, it's hard to project any other personality onto it. Instead of a monster species, it feels like there's just the one Incineroar. As if you're taking Bowser on your journey, rather than this random Cyndaquil.

While Incineroar is a great fit for Smash, I feel like the same cannot be said for his appearance as a Pokémon.

 

[Zinith]

What about Tsareen-Berry-Burst, Cinnamon-Salazzle or Experimental flavor Null?

Cinnamon-Salazzle is my favorite

 

[dezeray112]

So correct me if I haven't heard correctly:

- Vergeben confirmed that the Generation VII Pokemeon is definitely Inceniroar.
- Once again, reitirates that Ken is indeed in as Ryu's Echo Fighter.
- Ken and Inceniroar are the likely remaining characters left in the base roster (according to the Box Theory.)
- Any word about the Square-Enix Rep?

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Incineroar as far as I'm concerned, is the worst idea for a Pokemon newcomer I've seen floating around.

No, there are definitely worse. *Cough* Gothitelle

 

[AzureFlame4]

Yo, just heard about 108 stages. Box theory is looking really bad now.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Not the person you're responding to, but I'll put in my two cents. Disclaimer: I don't think it's hideous, but I have quite some issues with the design.

My main gripe with the more recent (starter) Pokémon - the latest gen in particular - is that they ooze too much personality. Hear me out: for any non-Pokémon character that'd be perfect and I kind of like Incineroar's design in a vacuum, but in the Pokémon Universe it just feels... off. I feel like Pokémon, just like animals IRL, should share some traits, but also have varying personalities.

In comparison, the first fire starter, Charizard, does work as a monster IMO. I recall this episode in the anime with loads of 'zards roaming around, each with different personalities. The base design looks vicious, but also generic enough that we're able to project personalities onto them: I can imagine a bit of a pudgy, relaxed Charizard that doesn't really enjoy fighting, but also a slightly more crooked one that is almost evil. The same can be said for Sceptile, Greninja, Emboar and so on.

Since Incineroar's base design shows so much personality, it's hard to project any other personality onto it. Instead of a monster species, it feels like there's just the one Incineroar. As if you're taking Bowser on your journey, rather than this random Cyndaquil.

While Incineroar is a great fit for Smash, I feel like the same cannot be said for his appearance as a Pokémon.

It is designed that way, much like Decidueye, because they're literally meant to fill a particular role of hunter. Heck, even Primarina is designed that way because it is a siren that lures it's prey with it's songs

This is a strange argument because all Decidueye's look like they're edgy robin hoods who feel no compassion and Primarina is literally happy go-lucky and elegant and any antonyms being given to their characters would look weird.

 

[papagenos]

Gonna say something that'll piss off a lot of folks in three sentences.


Verg can be right and box theory can be right, and all Sakurai has to do is one thing.



"Geno has joined the battle finally. He's available to all people who purchase a Nintendo Online subscription."




He wouldn't need to be on the box if he were DLC.

Yeah im assuming he is in fact the final reveal.

whether thats DLC or base roster but kept off the box I do not know but that is what verge + box theory adds up to.

my guess IS base roster though based on the fact that would end us on character #70 with a hype "ballot choice/fan favorite" at the end instead of just ken and incineroar. just my guess though.

 

[Michele]

Incineroar is going to cause a mountain of salt upon his reveal, 10 times worse than what poor Isabelle got.

Really...? Well...Isabelle is beautiful and a cute fighter so she didn't deserve the hate...

 

[MSmariosonic]

What's this about 108 stages?

 

[NintenRob]

The salt is real, If a leaker said a character you'd like you wouldn't have any problems with them lol.
Also I'm glad we got confirmation on that Inceniroar is the new character, it should keep expectations low and that's better.

Not really, I'm already annoyed with Verg for making Ridley of all characters less of surprise. And Simon especially

Leaks are Hype killers pretty much regardless of they say.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So correct me if I haven't heard correctly:

- Vergeben confirmed that the Generation VII Pokemeon is definitely Inceniroar.
- Once again, reitirates that Ken is indeed in as Ryu's Echo Fighter.
- Ken and Inceniroar are the likely remaining characters left in the base roster (according to the Box Theory.)
- Any word about the Square-Enix Rep?

He's not 100% sure if the pokemon is Incineroar. Some of his sources don't even know what the Pokemon rep is. But yeah, he believes it to be incineroar

One of his sources have told straight out told him the Square Enix Character's name, but he's scared to say it because it could be some false information meant to hurt his credibility.

 

[papagenos]

What's this about 108 stages?

corocoro magazine printed 108 stages

So correct me if I haven't heard correctly:

- Vergeben confirmed that the Generation VII Pokemeon is definitely Inceniroar.
- Once again, reitirates that Ken is indeed in as Ryu's Echo Fighter.
- Ken and Inceniroar are the likely remaining characters left in the base roster (according to the Box Theory.)
- Any word about the Square-Enix Rep?

theres what vergeben said.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Really...? Well...Isabelle is beautiful and a cute fighter so she didn't deserve the hate...

You're definitely right about that, poor Isabelle. :-;

 

[Guybrush20X6]

The main question about the 5 remaining stages is, are they all retro stages that simply weren't ready to show or are they all linked to newcomers?

In my mind, two or them are retros that had a LOT of work to revamp and three are linked to newcomers.

My thoughts go like

• Rainbow Road 3DS
• Mute City Melee
• Alola Stage
• Nintendo Newcomer stage (Let's say, Golden Sun)
• 3rd party stage (For example Ken's Boat or Shantae's lighthouse.)

 

[Michele]

What's this about 108 stages?

CoroCoro says there are 108 stages, though it could be a mistake or we might be getting 5 more stages.

Anyways...I'm not sure anyone posted it, but Vergeben finally replied again:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096#1

Says that he finally heard from all sources that it is indeed Incineroar. Also, some sources gave comments on the box theory, and he says that even if it's the final roster it's not the end of the world, as he seemingly hint there will definitely be DLC for the game.

 

[Shroob]

He's not 100% sure if the pokemon is Incineroar. Some of his sources don't even know what the Pokemon rep is. But yeah, he believes it to be incineroar

One of his sources have told straight out told him the Square Enix Character's name, but he's scared to say it because it could be some false information meant to hurt his credibility.

He just said they all agreed it was him.

 

[Cosmic77]

Reminder that not every character has to be on the boxart. It's entirely possible Nintendo designed the box to include the next two newcomers but not the rest. Why prioritize putting every character on a box when you could risk leaking newcomers after you manufacture the product and ship it to retailers?

I feel like Lycanroc's issue is it's Dusk forme is too new.

If Smash's project plan had been finished in 2016? Maybe. But I cannot imagine sketches for Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon being done before the base game even came out.


Dusk forme Lycanroc is the thing I think most people rally behind, because otherwise, Day and Night forme Lycanroc are just 'generic Pokemon' with no real marketing push behind them.

The orginal Lycanrocs got a decent marketing push in the pre Su/Mo promotion. They also got some promotion through TCG and the anime (Gladion and Olivia's Lycanrocs are still making anime appearance to this day). Maybe not the most memorable Pokemon, but certainly not generic either

And the concept for Dusk Lycanroc was likely finished in 2016. It first appeared in the anime during summer 2017, and since an episode usually takes about five-seven months to complete (in addition to the prior episodes that we're building up to its appearance), Dusk was probably on the table when Sakurai considered his options.

If none of the Lycanrocs got in, it's because Sakurai saw more potential in a different Pokemon. Not because he wasn't aware one existed or because there wasn't enough promotion to justify their addition.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So I've just been hearing about 108 stages... can someone give me the rundown?

 

[AzureFlame4]

I can't imagine why they would hide stages unless they were linked to newcomers.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Smash speculation gives me trust issues

The next direct can't come soon enough

 

[Zinith]

If the extra 5 stages ends up being true, I hope Crafted World is one of them (to replace Woolly World)...

 

[MSmariosonic]

I can't imagine why they would hide stages unless they were linked to newcomers.

Well, we could get melee's mute city that was kept secret for no apparent reason.

 

[MysticKnives]

Yo, just heard about 108 stages. Box theory is looking really bad now.

At the moment, it isn’t necssarily looking as even if we have 5 more stages, that still doesn’t exactly disprove this box theory going around

 

[AzureFlame4]

Spoiler: Video

This is the video I watched that explained 108 stages.

 

[Michele]

So I've just been hearing about 108 stages... can someone give me the rundown?

Hhhnggghhh
Sorry, it's just that peoples keep repeating that...Check before they post, amirite?

Corocoro supposedly says there are 108 stages, though it could be a mistake...