Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shyy_Guy595]

I see no good timeline where Ken and Incineroar AREN'T revealed in the same cinematic with an epic, fiery ring-out match in a boxing ring of sorts.

It's just too thematic and good to pass up, and if Ken really is an echo, then that's his only way of really getting a hype reveal.

 

[Cosmic77]

Incineroar would be my third choice for a Gen VII Pokemon, but I really think he's a step down the other choices we have. Kinda neutral on him. Don't hate him, but I don't love him. I do think his eventual role in the anime would justify his inclusion though.


Anyway, I don't understand why people are so adamant about Incineroar being the new Pokemon rep. If you've been following Verge, you'd know that he just recently admitted that neither of his main two sources have heard about Incineroar. He was told by one of his less reliable sources and an outside source. Meanwhile, he doubled down on Ken and the SE rep. Then there's also that unsolved mystery as to how he can randomly disconfirm three Pokemon without knowing for sure who the Gen VII rep is.

TBH, I think the Pokemon of this game could end up being the next "Robin" character. Everyone walks in expecting Incineroar because Verge said so, then we get taken by surprise when it's someone completely different.

 

[7982Brick]

I gotta say, this thread be spicy as hell right now. Lemme take a bite out of my sandwich in the sidelines.

View attachment 164625

It's insane to think how many pictures of this guy you must have on your computer. It's like you have an image for everything, including I don't know if that's cool or creepy.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Incineroar would be my third choice for a Gen VII Pokemon, but I really think he's a step down the other choices we have. Kinda neutral on him. Don't hate him, but I don't love him. I do think his eventual role in the anime would justify his inclusion though.


Anyway, I don't understand why people are so adamant about Incineroar being the new Pokemon rep. If you've been following Verge, you'd know that he just recently admitted that neither of his main two sources have heard about Incineroar. He was told by one of his less reliable sources and an outside source. Meanwhile, he doubled down on Ken and the SE rep. Then there's also that mystery to how he can randomly disconfirm two Pokemon without knowing for sure who the Gen VII rep is.

TBH, I think the Pokemon of this game could end up being the next "Robin" character. Everyone walks in expecting Incineroar because Verge said so, then we get taken by surprise when it's someone completely different.

He confirmed just an hour or so ago that all of his main sources are saying it's Incineroar now.

 

[Shroob]

Incineroar would be my third choice for a Gen VII Pokemon, but I really think he's a step down the other choices we have. Kinda neutral on him. Don't hate him, but I don't love him. I do think his eventual role in the anime would justify his inclusion though.


Anyway, I don't understand why people are so adamant about Incineroar being the new Pokemon rep. If you've been following Verge, you'd know that he just recently admitted that neither of his main two sources have heard about Incineroar. He was told by one of his less reliable sources and an outside source. Meanwhile, he doubled down on Ken and the SE rep. Then there's also that unsolved mystery as to how he can randomly disconfirm three Pokemon without knowing for sure who the Gen VII rep is.

TBH, I think the Pokemon of this game could end up being the next "Robin" character. Everyone walks in expecting Incineroar because Verge said so, then we get taken by surprise when it's someone completely different.

Verg LITERALLY just said all four of his sources agreed on Incineroar.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Is there any stage or area in Alola or a SF that Kem and Incineroar could fight on if they did reveal a stage with them?

 

[Raspberry]

I really don't think the Box theory is true because:
1. If the fighters alternated sides, there would've been no way for Isabelle to fill the last place on one side while there were 2 more spaces on K. Rool's side.
2. Since only the last two spots are empty, it either implies that there won't be any more echoes, which sounds really unlikely, or that one echo is still possible, which means completely changing the positions of the characters starting after its number in order to keep up with the alternative positions (which seems like too much work to reverse in order to create this render).
3. Nintendo wouldn't have spoiled how many characters there are in the roster in such an obvious manner, they want to maintain the hype and they still have 2 months and a half of news to fill.

 

[KMDP]

108 stages , Vegeta Ben and the accursed box don't contradict each other but we are massively limiting our speculation fun if we accept that uncritically.

108 stages besides being like the Eastern version of unlucky number 13 give all sorts of scope for new series like Golden Sun and THE BOX is not a statement of any sort. Seems a bit too armature hour for Nintendo to leak something like that. Last 5ime they did some thing like that they took the video down.

108 isn't an unlucky number.

Really, it's more like the number 3 in Christianity.

I think the connection of 108 to Buddhism is to me KIND of a stretch. Sorry....

Oh, absolutely.

 

[Shroob]

Is there any stage or area in Alola or a SF that Kem and Incineroar could fight on if they did reveal a stage with them?

The Battle Arena.

Though if 108 is a typo, the Smash boxing ring works just as well.


Basically "Generic wrestle-like area" works, which both are.

 

[Curious Villager]

Is there any stage or area in Alola or a SF that Kem and Incineroar could fight on if they did reveal a stage with them?

Probably that one wrestling stage with four players.
I don't think they will share a trailer though...

 

[Captain Fun]

Is there any stage or area in Alola or a SF that Kem and Incineroar could fight on if they did reveal a stage with them?

There are plenty of Gen 7 locations that could serve as Incineroar's stage. As for Ken, his signature stage is Battle Harbor.

Admittedly not as grand as a scene as Suzaku Castle, but it's iconic.

 

[Shroob]

I really don't think the Box theory is true because:
1. If the fighters alternated sides, there would've been no way for Isabelle to fill the last place on one side while there were 2 more spaces on K. Rool's side.
2. Since only the last two spots are empty, it either implies that there won't be any more echoes, which sounds really unlikely, or that one echo is still possible, which means completely changing the positions of the characters starting after its number in order to keep up with the alternative positions (which seems like too much work to reverse in order to create this render).
3. Nintendo wouldn't have spoiled how many characters there are in the roster in such an obvious manner, they want to maintain the hype and they still have 2 months and a half of news to fill.

1. Isabelle goes right next to K.Rool, actually.
2.Isabelle gets one spot, Incineroar gets the other, Ken goes on the side with Ryu.
3.It's happened with other games.


I don't really think one way or another on the box theory, but Isabelle goes right next to K.Rool.

 

[Nekoo]

Okay. I'll be honest here-
I somehow feels that Vergeben's Second Square Rep isn't Geno.

The way he talks about it seems to be like the Characters was a big secret deal and saying who it was would ruin his source because it is easy to trace back-
And I'm not sure if Geno would really fit the bill with how big he is in the speculation community, since throwing his name wouldn't really be a "surprise" in a Smash Forum.

I'm starting to lean towards a second FF rep or a DQ Characters.
or Sora, even if he's Disney he can be confused as a Square Characters but shhhh just wishful thinking

 

[AlphaSSB]

Is there any stage or area in Alola or a SF that Kem and Incineroar could fight on if they did reveal a stage with them?

Potentially the Battle Royal ring from the Sun and Moon games as well as the show. Would fit Incineroar and Ken perfectly if revealed together, especially for Incineroar, seeing as how the Battle Royal is where he's shown the most often.

Though I'd prefer an 'Alola Islands' touring stage where you're taken to key points all around Alola.

 

[Shoopdawooper]

108 stages is the first "leak" I'm inclined to believe. However, it's not really possible to infer anything about newcomers this way. Besides maybe that we will probably get at most 5 newcomers from new franchises, but I think really no one expected as much.

It's also still entirely possible the 5 unrevealed stages are stages for already revealed fighters, old stages, or even general smash stages.

Whatever the case, more stages is always welcome, and 108 as the final stagecount is great!

 

[MasterOfKnees]

And by the way, I don't care what anyone else says, Incineroar would be a hype final note to end on. And this is from someone who'd rather have Silvally, Decidueye, Lycanroc, Kommo-o, Sceptile, Poipole, or...well, a lot of different pokemon.

He's not some random WTF character who just leaves us all baffled nor some niche character with only a small handful of fans. He's a big, fiery tiger with a ton of personality and I expect his reveal trailer to reflect that. The only reason his reveal might be underwhelming at this point is simply because everyone expects him. Maybe it's because I'm a pokemon superfan who's happy to see any 'mon get in, but I thought Greninja's reveal was hype and I'm going to find Incineroar's reveal hype as well.

Inb4 Incineroar's trailer is just a Peliper delivering him a letter.

I think Incineroar is simply a bit more of a controversial addition than Greninja, the frog was also a surprise, but he was already fairly popular before his Smash reveal (although still nowhere near his popularity he gained with his role in the anime). Incineroar has had a bit more of a mixed reaction, ever since he was rumored to be in I've seen so many people bemoan what they call his silly design, even going back to when he was first leaked those were many of the first reactions.

I don't really care either way, the Pokémon debate is probably the one I've cared the least for this time around, and I'm already set as far as newcomers go, but I would expect a fairly negative reaction from the community if that's how it wraps up. Incineroar specifically might have been a surprise if he hadn't been leaked, but a new Pokémon is generally the least surprising addition possible.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Probably that one wrestling stage with four players.
I don't think they will share a trailer though...

Echoes don't get a cinematic, unless he's a semiclone.

Even then, it would seem like a missed opportunity NOT to have two buff, fiery, masculine characters knowing for fighting to have a go at each other

 

[NintenRob]

Incineroar would be a very disappointing choice.

We already have 4 starter Pokemon, including another Fully evolved fire starter.

And Incineroar was just a lame Pokemon to begin with, sure he has some fans but for the most part he's very polarising. He's just so hideous.



I hope he gets Gematsu'd. Also screw Verg and all leakers. Learn to keep you mouth shut.

 

[Cosmic77]

He confirmed just an hour or so ago that all of his main sources are saying it's Incineroar now.

...Well, looks like I'm the one who needs to keep up with Verge.

Still, I'd like to know what caused them to change their minds. Did they finally see something that makes them think Incineroar is happening, or are they jumping on board with the general opinion?

 

[Shroob]

Incineroar would be a very disappointing choice.

We already have 4 starter Pokemon, including another Fully evolved fire starter.

And Incineroar was just a lame Pokemon to begin with, sure he has some fans but for the most part he's very polarising. He's just so hideous.



I hope he gets Gematsu'd. Also screw Verg and all leakers. Learn to keep you mouth shut.

Funny. When a leaker was saying Skull Kid, you ate up what he had to say.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

He's yet to be wrong because he makes safe guesses and people bend them to something more than they are.

He said "No cuts from Smash 4 and ICs are in", and apparently that translated fine to "EVERYONE THAT'S EVER BEEN IN SMASH IS BACK!" to everyone.

The point is that Vergeben has been, and is still ultimately correct, whether you think he made "safe picks" or not (which I personally don't think is the case, but whatever). It's clear he is in contact with legit sources, and to diminish all he's gotten correct so far by labeling them "safe picks" is both ridiculous and disingenuous.

Your posts scream of a whole lot of hindsight bias and desperation for Vergeben to be as untrustworthy as possible.

 

[KMDP]

Just got the "Only the Best is Good Enough" Trophy.

Spoiler: How I think you get it

Unir nyy lbhe znvaf nf gur gbc gvrerq punenpgref (Cvxnpuh, Sbk, Zrgn Xavtug k2, Onlbarggn k2) sbe na ubhe.

 

[Curious Villager]

Echoes don't get a cinematic, unless he's a semiclone.

Even then, it would seem like a missed opportunity NOT to have two buff, fiery, masculine characters knowing for fighting to have a go at each other

I have a feeling they will probably use Pikachu Libre for Inceneroars trailer.

 

[NintenRob]

Funny. When a leaker was saying Skull Kid, you ate up what he had to say.

I never supported or believed him, at most I appreciated the extra supporters and attention Skull Kid got thanks to him.

I was saying Skull Kid was in before, during and after the whole Loz debate.

 

[CosmicQuark]

My thing with Ancestral Steppe (the Monster Hunter stage) is that if it's gonna be in the game, how come there isn't a Monster Hunter character? Sakurai knows Monster Hunter is an astronomical franchise at the moment, so why would he then make a stage, Rathalos and whatever music is gonna be in if there wasn't a character? Not to mention, they would've already confirmed it back in August on the website or on the SSC.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be down for a Monster Hunter stage, but this situation with the area really confuses me.

I don't think a new stage requires a new playable character. I think when we speculate, we put so much emphasis on playable characters, when Sakurai views assist trophies as sufficient representation if it fits. Since Monster Hunter and Minecraft are less about the playable character and more about what surrounds them (e.g., the monsters, the world of Minecraft), they both may be more suited as an assist trophy/stage. I'm less confident about that one, but it seems like the single player mode may take its settings from the multiplayer stages is my hunch. What I do find weird is revealing the single player stage before (and without) showing the multiplayer stage. But it's weird that stage was shown off that early at all. EDIT: Reading your posts I missed, you read my mind.

2 times is coincidence. 3 times might be a pattern.

6 times is hard to argue against when it’s boxart that’s planned for display on Amazon.

I wrote a paragraph, but I feel like I'm getting a bit--too philosophical. All I can say is, no matter how many times something happens, it's not necessarily a real pattern (which means it was *intentional*), especially if there's a break in the pattern, which there is. But I too like finding patterns, connecting the dots, even if it's eventually shown not to be a real pattern.

And it's easy to argue with anything if you read lots of books on philosophy But I do seriously believe people are looking a bit too much into patterns that aren't actually there. There's too many red flags when it comes to the box theory.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

...Well, looks like I'm the one who needs to keep up with Verge.

Still, I'd like to know what caused them to change their minds. Did they finally see something that makes them think Incineroar is happening, or are they jumping on board with the general opinion?

I think with Incineroar having already spread as a solid rumor they might feel safer putting it out there knowing it'd be more difficult to trace back to them specifically, they likely always knew it was him (hence knowing it wasn't Decidueye/Mimikyu/Lycanroc). It's just a guess though, going into the mind of leakers isn't something we can use to gauge credibility, because logically you wouldn't even begin to leak something if you're in a high enough position to know stuff like that, so for the most part logical thinking doesn't apply to them. The only thing we can use to judge them on is their track record, and it's been flawless so far.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

He's just so hideous.

Something I've never understood.

I don't get how Incineroar is hideous.

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Echoes don't get a cinematic, unless he's a semiclone.

Even then, it would seem like a missed opportunity NOT to have two buff, fiery, masculine characters knowing for fighting to have a go at each other

Richter shared a trailer with Simon.

This discussion is about Ken and Incineroar sharing a trailer, so that would be a way for Ken to get a cinematic.

That being said, Simon and Richter were from the same series, so I don't seen Ken and a Pokemon sharing a trailer.

 

[Dandelionel]

Something I've never understood.

I don't get how Incineroar is hideous.

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

People just hate him for being bipedal and being a "fighter" (I like Incinerorar but I can see why some may find him irritating)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ken and Richter being in a trailer makes perfect sense.

They are third party characters. Their inclusions were likely chosen at the start of development so they could get the rights to the characters.

They then had enough time to fit them into trailers.

Daisy, Chrom and Dark Samus might have simply been last minute bonuses because getting the rights to them is a non issue.

 

[NintenRob]

Something I've never understood.

I don't get how Incineroar is hideous.

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

Well started off a cute little cat.

And turned some weird bipedal abomination with just weird proportions and some stupid belt?


And I've never been a big fan of wrestling.


He was pretty much worst case scenario for the Litten line imo.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

It's because it went from cute, but edgy quadriped, to a 6 foot tall, buff as hell masculine bara tiger who's a disguised "fighting" type and is now bipedal.

Richter shared a trailer with Simon.

This discussion is about Ken and Incineroar sharing a trailer, so that would be a way for Ken to get a cinematic.

That being said, Simon and Richter were from the same series, so I don't seen Ken and a Pokemon sharing a trailer.

I obviously meant they don't get their OWN trailers alone.

 

[pholtos]

I've never been a fan of final forms of fire starters, and it didn't help when they almost always followed the same pattern of fire/fighting-esque. Delphox was a refreshing change of pace for the fire starters, but then came fire starter wrestler. Eugh.

Edit: As a note, if Incineroar gets in, whatever fine. I'll be happy for those who want the character, but I'll never play the character, except if I get it on random.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's because it went from cute, but edgy quadreped, to a 6 foot tall, buff as hell masculine bara tiger who's a disguised "fighting" type and is now bipedal.

That seems like an expectation thing and less of a flaw of the actual design.

 

[Zinith]

Sorry if I'm not jumping into the "Incineroar" conversation. I know nothing about it other than "starter Pokemon" and "not reptile"

 

[KMDP]

Incineroar would be a very disappointing choice.

We already have 4 starter Pokemon, including another Fully evolved fire starter.

And Incineroar was just a lame Pokemon to begin with, sure he has some fans but for the most part he's very polarising. He's just so hideous.



I hope he gets Gematsu'd. Also screw Verg and all leakers. Learn to keep you mouth shut.

Umm...

You're not thinking of Incineroar's inclusion in the right way; you're looking at it from the point of view of Type Representation and whether the Pokémon is a Starter.

Both of these views are flawed. Putting aside that Incineroar is Fire-type and a Starter, what can it bring to Smash that others haven't yet? It's Wrestling moves and Heel Persona (Decidueye would also bring something unique, and it's not because it's a Grass-type).

"Type Representation" ignores all the merits that the Pokémon itself could bring to the table; it's a problem I have with people saying "We need [x] Pokémon to represent [y] type".

 

[papagenos]

Something I've never understood.

I don't get how Incineroar is hideous.

Like, I think Emboar and Delphox look awful and I can kind of put that into words, but I can't figure out anything inherently wrong with Incineroar's design. He isn't the best looking starter but he's far from hideous.

i think people dont like that he's bipedal when the evolutionary line appeared like it wouldnt be at the end.

he's a "fighter"...not fire/fighting type but still its the fire/fighting starter thing AGAIN since he's still that "theme".

and for me particularly anyway his hands are really odd. why they want with 5 fingers i'll never know it really stands out in an uncanny valley kind of way.

I dont hate his design, i think its not great but i dont hate it, but those three things are generally what i hear people complain about. i do however think for smash his moveset could be really great cause he could be a grappler/wrestler and that is interesting as we dont have one.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

That seems like an expectation thing and less of a flaw of the actual design.

I agree.

I was kinda disappointed a bit at first, but it was mostly surprise at the HUGE shift in evolution.

I then saw him wink at me and I was suddenly okay with everything because he actually has a personality.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't think Incineroar is a bad Pokemon by any means, but man, I REALLY wish we'd stop with the starter Pokemon altogether. They're such safe picks and so easy to implement that I can't find myself getting very excited for any of the Gen VII starters. Feels like we're choosing between three of the most basic ice cream flavors: Chocolate, Vanilla, and Strawberry.

Why can't we get something more unexpected, like Lycan-Rocky Road or Tapu-Cookies and Cream?

 

[KMDP]

i think people dont like that he's bipedal when the evolutionary line appeared like it wouldnt be at the end.

Here's my counter-argument to this notion: .

Mostly .