Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Michele]

Guys, can you please stop agruing about Incineroar? I'm getting tired of this mindset especially from you, Mr. Bulbasaur and Mr. SmashFour.

I know you're discussing about Incineroar being in Ultimate, but just like Ridley and K.Rool, he also is NOT a safe choice or bet. Yes, I know Vergeben said that the gen 7 pokemon wouldn't be Decidueye or Lycanroc, but Incineroar might NOT be the only gen 7 newcomer. Instead of him, there could have been another pokemon in his place.

But really, TLDR: Incineroar isn't a safe choice.

 

[MrSmashFour]

Sorry lads, Verg isn't the new Gematsu, no matter how hard you try and make him that.

Wake me up when he calls something as out-of-left-field as Wii Fit Trainer - like, oh, I don't know, Richter Belmont, or something.

 

[ChronoBound]

"Incineroar was a safe guess"


Literally EVERYONE wanted the ****ing owl before Verg came.



Revisionist history at its finest.

Yes, its like those people who said Robin was obvious from the start when only a week before his unveil they were saying Chrom was a shoe-in. I was actually one of the few that said Chrom getting in hinged upon whether Ike returned, and if he did, he would probably go with the My Unit character to represent Awakening. I did not see Lucina getting in as well though.

 

[MrSmashFour]

Guys, can you please stop agruing about Incineroar? I'm getting tired of this mindset especially from you, Mr. Bulbasaur and Mr. SmashFour.

I know you're discussing about Incineroar being in Ultimate, but just like Ridley and K.Rool, he also is NOT a safe choice or bet. Yes, I know Vergeben said that the gen 7 pokemon wouldn't be Decidueye or Lycanroc, but Incineroar might NOT be the only gen 7 newcomer. Instead of him, there could have been another pokemon in his place.

But really, TLDR: Incineroar isn't a safe choice.

No. Incineroar has been the safest Gen 7 choice since day 1.

 

[Raspberry]

I haven't been here since Isabelle's reveal, would anyone be so kind so as to tell me what's new rumour-wise or theory-wise? Thanks a lot.

 

[Dandelionel]

Sorry lads, Verg isn't the new Gematsu, no matter how hard you try and make him that.

Wake me up when he calls something as out-of-left-field as Wii Fit Trainer - like, oh, I don't know, Richter Belmont, or something.

I mean if he is the new Getmatsu it means that he will be wrong, so you are right that he doesn't look like he will be

 

[Michele]

No. Incineroar has been the safest Gen 7 choice since day 1.

How would it be a safe bet? For what we know, there could be another Pokemon in his place. I know what Vergeben said, but... I'm just unsure myself. I want to believe him, but I'm not sure, besides we already have Charizard as a Fire pokemon.

 

[Captain Fun]

I haven't been here since Isabelle's reveal, would anyone be so kind so as to tell me what's new rumour-wise or theory-wise? Thanks a lot.

Box theory. It suggests we may only have one more echo and one more unique fighter, if the special edition boxart reflects the final version.

 

[Flynn__]

View attachment 164619


Stealing this from Source Gaming's newest podcast, but you can see how the "Groups of 9" work.

The right side matches up with the left with this theory in mind, and the only spot it gets ****y is with Palutena-Cloud, which conveniently is where Ken gets slotted in if you believe in Vergeben.

The order of the characters is so messed up though. So confusing. I understand that it's made to not separate the original 8 but still, for me it's kind of proof that it's not the final design. There should be a way to have all original 8 characters in the same row so they don't have to make those random jumps from row to row.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well maybe Verg and I just have more common sense that a Pokemon that was consistently marketed as a wrestler was more likely to be in Smash. Incineroar always has been the safest bet, no matter what the consensus was.

My point is that everyone has a different idea of what a "safe bet" is. It's very easy to twist several characters into being safe bets.

Lots of people, including myself, thought that Mewtwo was a safe bet for Smash 4's base roster. Guess what didn't happen?
Most people, including myself, thought that Ridley was unlikely because Sakurai repeatedly insisted on making him a boss instead.

And no one, and I mean no one, thought that Snake or Simon were safe bets after Snake was removed from Smash 4. It still boggles my mind that he's back.

If Verg was going with "safe guesses" he still would have gotten some stuff wrong by now.

 

[Zinith]

I haven't been here since Isabelle's reveal, would anyone be so kind so as to tell me what's new rumour-wise or theory-wise? Thanks a lot.

1. The Smash Ultimate Special Edition box may have indicated that there'd be only 2 newcomers remaining
2. CoroCoro magazine stated that there's 108 stages instead of 103, though that may be a misprint

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I haven't been here since Isabelle's reveal, would anyone be so kind so as to tell me what's new rumour-wise or theory-wise? Thanks a lot.

Verge buckled down on Ken and Incineroar.
A new theory called box theory seems to hint at two characters being all that's left. One of these characters is an echo for a late Smash 4 character. This seems to confirm Verge.
Coro Coro said there were 108 stages in the game, which is odd. We don't know if its real yet.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yeah, Simon was wanted, but people didn't think it was all too likely.

Granted, it's pretty bold to be 100% confident in a character no one thought would happen, had hope would happen because of him, was disappointed and called him illegitimate afterwards, only to actually end up being leaked by freaking Nintendo before his true reveal which suddenly made everyone believe him again.

 

[Deleted member]

I gotta say, this thread be spicy as hell right now. Lemme take a bite out of my sandwich in the sidelines.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Also, if Verg has been riding off safe bets, why hasn't he said Shadow yet?

Basically the entire community agreed that he was the absolute single safest bet as an echo since the 8/8 direct and yet Verg has said nothing despite everything Shadow has going for him.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

108 stages , Vegeta Ben and the accursed box don't contradict each other but we are massively limiting our speculation fun if we accept that uncritically.

108 stages besides being like the Eastern version of unlucky number 13 give all sorts of scope for new series like Golden Sun and THE BOX is not a statement of any sort. Seems a bit too armature hour for Nintendo to leak something like that. Last 5ime they did some thing like that they took the video down.

 

[Michele]

1. The Smash Ultimate Special Edition box may have indicated that there'd be only 2 newcomers remaining
2. CoroCoro magazine stated that there's 108 stages instead of 103, though that may be a misprint

Can you please tell me the source to that one in the bold? Never heard of it.

edit: Nevermind, found it!

 

[Shroob]

The order of the characters is so messed up though. So confusing. I understand that it's made to not separate the original 8 but still, for me it's kind of proof that it's not the final design. There should be a way to have all original 8 characters in the same row so they don't have to make those random jumps from row to row.

That's just for the box art, not the CSS.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, if Verg has been riding off safe bets, why hasn't he said Shadow yet?

Basically the entire community agreed that he was the absolute single safest bet as an echo since the 8/8 direct and yet Verg has said nothing despite everything Shadow has going for him.

Shadow probably has him at gunpoint with his ACTUALLY CANON glock so Verge doesn't leak his inclusion.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

If anything, Shadow would make for good DLC as well as Tails.

It'd be... weird for an echo to be what comes out of a DLC character though, given they basically have all the time in the world to create them

So he's probably be unique, is what I'm inferring

 

[Michele]

Also, if Verg has been riding off safe bets, why hasn't he said Shadow yet?

Basically the entire community agreed that he was the absolute single safest bet as an echo since the 8/8 direct and yet Verg has said nothing despite everything Shadow has going for him.

Now that you mention it, it's absolutely suspicious. Maybe it's because one source told he was in and other told he wasn't?

Though...This could hurt Shadow's chances...

 

[Nethermoosen]

Team DLC will continue for 2 years?
Reminder that if Banjo doesn’t come out by May, I am deleting my account.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Here, I think now would be no more of a better time than ever for a little game! What do you guys think the last five stages will be for Smash Ultimate? Here's mine to start things off.

Battle Harbor (from Street Fighter II) - It makes the most sense, given how many Street Fighter songs we have and Ken coming into the roster. Sonic and Pac-Man have/had two stages before, so it wouldn't be surprising to see Street Fighter get another stage. I wouldn't mind either, it's the grandfather of fighting games, after all.
Aether Foundation (from Pokemon Sun & Moon) - Given with how Incineroar is in the roster (assumably) and how we need representation for Gen VII. As long as it brings a really pretty and creative stage layout and some more bangers, I'm all fine wit it.
Bowser's Keep (from Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - Since we still need that Square rep confirmation, we all assume it'd be Geno. I couldn't really decide on an affirmative locale from the game, but since we have more boss themes remixed from the Mario series and how we STILL haven't had a Bowser's Castle stage yet, Bowser's Keep would make for a REALLY cool locale.
The Overworld (from Minecraft) - Uhhh... Minecraft. Yeah.
Alrest (from Xenoblade Chronicles 2) - Travelling around the Titans, pretty much, ending it all off at a modified area of the 7th Perimeter Skyport section of the World Tree. Let me have my dream, dammit.

I gave my list in another thread, though it might be more suitable here:

1. Sun and Moon stage (if Incineroar is in)
2. Golden Sun stage (if Isaac is in)
3. Banjo-Kazooie stage (if Banjo & Kazooie is in)
4. Monster Hunter stage (makes sense, as Dracula's Castle is both a stage in single and multiplayer mode)
5. Minecraft stage (a Creeper assist, like Rathalos, would probably come with a stage, and also lines up with Verg)

My thinking is no more returning stages, only stages from new characters (playable or assist) from a new series (outside of Pokemon because it's Pokemon). Geno (though it's nebulous as he's a third party Mario character), Skull Kid, Bandana Waddle Dee, Dixie (if unique), Shadow (if unique) could all get in without any new stages (though I'd really like a stage based on SA2). I could see it being messed up if the Bandai Namco character rumor is true (in which case there'd be a Tales of Symphonia stage, as I think Heihachi makes more sense as DLC) and I don't think Dante's in the base roster (because the creator said no, and I don't think Capcom would get 3 representatives).

However, Isabelle is not an echo, so don't believe anything I ****ing say.

It's doesn't matter to the theory why it's organized that way. The theory is simply based on the observation that it is ordered that way.

I dunno. I guess they didn’t care much? That’s just the reason I would go with. But even then, they could just as easily have gone down the list in the normal way. Could be they wanted Luigi and Mario to be the top of each list? That part doesn’t really matter, though. They still went with the “rule of 9”

I refer you to my previous sentence above, but it's mind boggling if true, to say the least. It reeks of placeholder art as a result of it looking sloppily placed. Random patterns happen even when there were no intention behind it, or the actual intention is missing because we're missing important information. And the idea that they didn't care much goes to my previous statement that some intern could have just ****ed up and the finalized box art has a different (more logical) pattern.

 

[StormC]

I'm gonna take a stab and say that because of the reliability of this Square source, Geno will still make it into base somehow, despite the box.

Even with the "last Smash reveals are always underwhelming" trend... I can't see them ending on Incineroar. And I like Incineroar! It sounds like there's no reason for Verge to think the Square character isn't in the game despite the box theory. Verge even said he has no confirmation on the box either way.

Also keep in mind again, Verge has blind spots. He knew nothing about K. Rool or most of the echo fighters. Who knows what other data will come out.

Everyone's jumping the gun here a bit, I think.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I gave my list in another thread, though it might be more suitable here:

1. Sun and Moon stage (if Incineroar is in)
2. Golden Sun stage (if Isaac is in)
3. Banjo-Kazooie stage (if Banjo & Kazooie is in)
4. Monster Hunter stage (makes sense, as Dracula's Castle is both a stage in single and multiplayer mode)
5. Minecraft stage (a Creeper assist, like Rathalos, would probably come with a stage, and also lines up with Verg)

My thinking is no more returning stages, only stages from new characters (playable or assist) from a new series (outside of Pokemon because it's Pokemon). Geno (though it's nebulous as he's a third party Mario character), Skull Kid, Bandana Waddle Dee, Dixie (if unique), Shadow (if unique) could all get in without any new stages (though I'd really like a stage based on SA2). I could see it being messed up if the Bandai Namco character rumor is true (in which case there'd be a Tales of Symphonia stage, as I think Heihachi makes more sense as DLC) and I don't think Dante's in the base roster (because the creator said no, and I don't think Capcom would get 3 representatives).

However, Isabelle is not an echo, so don't believe anything I ****ing say.




I refer you to my previous sentence above, but it's mind boggling if true, to say the least. It reeks of placeholder art as a result of it looking sloppily placed. Random patterns happen even when there were no intention behind it, or the actual intention is missing because we're missing important information. And the idea that they didn't care much goes to my previous statement that some intern could have just ****ed up and the finalized box art has a different (more logical) pattern.

2 times is coincidence. 3 times might be a pattern.

6 times is hard to argue against when it’s boxart that’s planned for display on Amazon.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Now that you mention it, it's absolutely suspicious. Maybe it's because one source told he was in and other told he wasn't?

Though...This could hurt Shadow's chances...

We shouldn't ride off any character just because Vergeben hasn't said anything about them. He, unlike other leakers, wants to be 100% sure about what he publicly states, and that's why he has been spot on with everythung so far.
Also he never claimed to know the full roster, just like how now he never stated anything that helps the box theory. In fact him going "My sources didn't told me anything about it for now, but I'm still sure about these three characters" is hurting it a little bit.

 

[Deleted member]

I gave my list in another thread, though it might be more suitable here:

1. Sun and Moon stage (if Incineroar is in)
2. Golden Sun stage (if Isaac is in)
3. Banjo-Kazooie stage (if Banjo & Kazooie is in)
4. Monster Hunter stage (makes sense, as Dracula's Castle is both a stage in single and multiplayer mode)
5. Minecraft stage (a Creeper assist, like Rathalos, would probably come with a stage, and also lines up with Verg)

My thinking is no more returning stages, only stages from new characters (playable or assist) from a new series (outside of Pokemon because it's Pokemon). Geno (though it's nebulous as he's a third party Mario character), Skull Kid, Bandana Waddle Dee, Dixie (if unique), Shadow (if unique) could all get in without any new stages (though I'd really like a stage based on SA2). I could see it being messed up if the Bandai Namco character rumor is true (in which case there'd be a Tales of Symphonia stage, as I think Heihachi makes more sense as DLC) and I don't think Dante's in the base roster (because the creator said no, and I don't think Capcom would get 3 representatives).

However, Isabelle is not an echo, so don't believe anything I ****ing say.

My thing with Ancestral Steppe (the Monster Hunter stage) is that if it's gonna be in the game, how come there isn't a Monster Hunter character? Sakurai knows Monster Hunter is an astronomical franchise at the moment, so why would he then make a stage, Rathalos and whatever music is gonna be in if there wasn't a character? Not to mention, they would've already confirmed it back in August on the website or on the SSC.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be down for a Monster Hunter stage, but this situation with the area really confuses me.

 

[PLATINUM7]

108 stages , Vegeta Ben and the accursed box don't contradict each other but we are massively limiting our speculation fun if we accept that uncritically.

108 stages besides being like the Eastern version of unlucky number 13 give all sorts of scope for new series like Golden Sun and THE BOX is not a statement of any sort. Seems a bit too armature hour for Nintendo to leak something like that. Last 5ime they did some thing like that they took the video down.

Isn't 108 sacred or just more generally mystical but not unlucky?

It actually makes it a nice number of stages by coincidence.

 

[pholtos]

To those who were asking why I don't think there's not only going to be two more reveals in the remaining three months, I'm looking at both Hype for the game and typical patterns for previous games.

Wouldn't it seem like inverse hype if it ends that way, with Ken and a Pokemon Rep, after starting with Ridley, Simon and K Rool? (Yes I've ignored a couple reveals, just focusing on the main reveals per each direct, Inkling was used to reveal the game earlier on, so a hype in it's own right)
A Pokemon rep is literally the most expected thing in a new smash, why would that be the end?

Beyond that, typically there is a bit of a backlog of reveals near the end, beyond the occasional reveals over time.

Now naturally, this is just my opinion, and overall I'm just looking at pattern of the past and such, but really. I CANNOT see us only getting two more reveals.

 

[Shroob]

If nothing else, this will finally end the "Vergeben didn't say Incineroar!" ****. If all four of his sources agreed on it, there's not much to argue here.

Incineroar and Ken are coming, sooner than later at this point.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

You know, I think I know how Gen 6 and Gen 1 fans will feel if Incineroar makes it into the game because there's some strangely heartwarming feeling to see the starter you chose in the game.

He may just be one of the characters I really like

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't 108 sacred or just more generally mystical but not unlucky?

It actually makes it a nice number of stages by coincidence.

I remember PushDustin talking about this on Twitter, and it'd make sense. To quote the person he found it from:

"108 is a big number in Japan.

In Japan, a bell is chimed 108 times in Buddhist Temples to finish the old year and begin a new one. And it just so happens that this game is released on December and the month after that will be Smash's 20th Anniversary."
SOURCE: https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1041213821786845184

 

[Nethermoosen]

I'm gonna take a stab and say that because of the reliability of this Square source, Geno will still make it into base somehow, despite the box.

Even with the "last Smash reveals are always underwhelming" trend... I can't see them ending on Incineroar. And I like Incineroar! It sounds like there's no reason for Verge to think the Square character isn't in the game despite the box theory. Verge even said he has no confirmation on the box either way.

Also keep in mind again, Verge has blind spots. He knew nothing about K. Rool or most of the echo fighters. Who knows what other data will come out.

Everyone's jumping the gun here a bit, I think.

No guns jumped here. Box is most likely. But still, even after all the evidence, there is nothing that makes it conclusive, yet.

Hopefully we learn the SE character is base roster or CoroCoro is actually legit. Boom bam.

Neutral. Zen. Peace.
If not? Neutral. Zen. Peace.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

My thing with Ancestral Steppe (the Monster Hunter stage) is that if it's gonna be in the game, how come there isn't a Monster Hunter character? Sakurai knows Monster Hunter is an astronomical franchise at the moment, so why would he then make a stage, Rathalos and whatever music is gonna be in if there wasn't a character? Not to mention, they would've already confirmed it back in August on the website or on the SSC.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be down for a Monster Hunter stage, but this situation with the area really confuses me.

There could be a lot of reasons as to why, Sakurai might simply not fancy a MH character, there's not enough development time for an additional character and it simply can't take priority over others, he might feel Capcom is already getting very well represented with Ken incoming, or he might feel the series is adequately represented with a stage and a monster from it.

It'd be the 3rd party version of Smashville in Brawl, certainly AC also deserved a character then, but they just didn't get one. With Capcom being by far the most cooperative of the 3rd party studios involved I don't find it too unbelievable.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I remember PushDustin talking about this on Twitter, and it'd make sense. To quote the person he found it from:

"108 is a big number in Japan.

In Japan, a bell is chimed 108 times in Buddhist Temples to finish the old year and begin a new one. And it just so happens that this game is released on December and the month after that will be Smash's 20th Anniversary."
SOURCE: https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1041213821786845184

The significance extends outside of Japan. 108 pops up a few times in Buddhism looking it up and even has some significance in Hinduism.

 

[Deleted member]

There could be a lot of reasons as to why, Sakurai might simply not fancy a MH character, there's not enough development time for an additional character and it simply can't take priority over others, he might feel Capcom is already getting very well represented with Ken incoming, or he might feel the series is adequately represented with a stage and a monster from it.

It'd be the 3rd party version of Smashville in Brawl, certainly AC also deserved a character then, but they just didn't get one. With Capcom being by far the most cooperative of the 3rd party studios involved I don't find it too unbelievable.

Right, I just wished back then in August there was confirmation on the stage selection screen or website if it was gonna be a part of the stage roster or not.
Would've saved a bit of trouble.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Capcom and Konami really came in with some strong support for this game.

It's really effing surprising considering previous developers and maybe even still current developers Bandai Namco and freaking SEGA, who have been nothing but best buds with Nintendo now like Britain and America are now best buds after their contesting histories.

 

[Zinith]

I think the connection of 108 to Buddhism is to me KIND of a stretch. Sorry....

 

[ZephyrZ]

And by the way, I don't care what anyone else says, Incineroar would be a hype final note to end on. And this is from someone who'd rather have Silvally, Decidueye, Lycanroc, Kommo-o, Sceptile, Poipole, or...well, a lot of different pokemon.

He's not some random WTF character who just leaves us all baffled nor some niche character with only a small handful of fans. He's a big, fiery tiger with a ton of personality and I expect his reveal trailer to reflect that. The only reason his reveal might be underwhelming at this point is simply because everyone expects him. Maybe it's because I'm a pokemon superfan who's happy to see any 'mon get in, but I thought Greninja's reveal was hype and I'm going to find Incineroar's reveal hype as well.

Inb4 Incineroar's trailer is just a Peliper delivering him a letter.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I think the connection of 108 to Buddhism is to me KIND of a stretch. Sorry....

I don't think it's an intentional connection.