Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Misery Brick]

All of this hate ...

I've gotta say, I'm beyond stoked he's back with the whole team. I loved the transformation mechanics because it did allow me to switch as the situation required. With Stamina gone, I can choose to either play as a single one or play as the whole team. Each one has a different set of strengths, so the fun part will be to see how to deal with matchups to counter what you need at the time.

You know, kind of like how in the main series Pokémon games, you switch out to get an advantage.

Because of that, I think the trainer and his three mons are actually the most faithful representative of his series. Pika may be a great rep for the anime, but if you try to one-shot everything with just a Pikachu (who's not overlevelled) in the game, you're stuck by Brock's gym since no electric attacks are effective.

It just amazes me how people are so against transformation movesets. I get that balancing around them is a bit tougher, but almost every fighting game has some form of a stance character, which gives a steeper learning curve since you have to learn more than one kit. Maybe it's just because I like the trainer, but it's hard for me to hear people complain about him without me hearing "But learning more than one moveset is haaaaaard! I'd much rather have one extrememly-situational special move than being able to mixup my attacks and get the jump on my opponents!"

These reasons are exactly the things I can't understand about people and them being against as a whole.

Like I get it, some people definitely have a bit more of an attachment to one of the Pokémon more than the others, or just prefer a different play-style as opposed to the others.
However, they're still in the game.
Like in Smash 4, for me personally, I liked using Charizard time to time but I missed the victory screens with Red and the partnership between all three Pokémon.
I mean after all, the Pokémon Trainer is supposed to embody you and the relationship you have with the Pokémon. So if anything, I feel it's more personal than just seeing the individual Pokémon with their own victory screen. It's the legendary trainer and their Pokémon proving their worth once again on the field of Smash.
I get it though, it's not for everyone and people have their own personal feelings on the matter.

Although, when it comes to play-style, you can play the Pokémon freely and without switching. (Unless you get knocked out and want to waste invincibility to cycle back.)
However, I don't see how them being tied together is worse than them being individual Pokémon. Like if anything, I think Charizard as a character suffered more on his own as compared to potential options with Ulitmate.

From the amount of people that are unhappy with this decision for the moveset just shows me they're not willing to actually give this character a chance and were probably just going to drop the character regardless after a couple months.
Learning how to use is no different than learning other characters, the thing is you can't view the three Pokémon as separate entites tied to a special. They're all working parts of the trainer itself, all with their own pros and cons like their home series. It's up to you learning their matchups and being skilled with each one of them.
(They're almost like a team from a team fighter, but I've already had an argument about this analogy and I don't feel like having to reiterate myself.)
Some people don't want to go through the ordeal of having to learn every Pokémon, but at the end of the day that's a self imposed restriction that's only going to hurt you.

For me personally, as someone who's a huge fan of Pokémon and the original starters alongside team fighters, I'm definitely going to spend some time on Red and learn how the team works compared to their Brawl iterations.

It would be cool to see Echoes with changes as big as some of these on specials.

Dude, I completely wish that would happen.
Like even for preexisting echoes like Lucina and Dark Pit, I thought they should've received some custom moves if they weren't going to implement them again.
Like Lucina receiving the Iai Counter instead of the basic one and etc.

 

[Nazyrus]

lol it's like people forgot how easy it was even to fake DMs on gamefaqs. The whole vergeben fake leaks type of scenario all over again. Just wait for the announcement of the direct and the direct itself at this point, cause stuff like that is just a waste of time at this point.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

They're not though, just switch back to the character you're best with or take the time to master all 3.

Switching out is much more flexible and useful than rock smash ever was and would be if it made a return. It's on the players if They don't maximise on the switching out mechanics potential and yes that would involve taking the time to master all 3 Pokemon.

"Just switch back" and "master all 3" is much easier said than done. Even with it being a lot quicker, switching back to your main pokemon without getting punished is not a simple task, especially when you're already in disadvantage. To see it in practice, watch some Melee matches where Sheik players switch to Zelda in a last ditch recovery attempt to utilize her farther recovery to survive certain death, and then see the significant trouble they have getting back to Sheik afterward without dying or taking farther damage despite the Transform process being fast.

Then for "master all 3", first that's going to be three very different characters you're spreading your development time among, meaning you're going to develop slower trying to play all three compared to a single character, and if you're willing to spread development time among more characters for the sake of matchups, then it's very probable you'll be better off spreading that development time among other characters instead of specifically the three PT pokemon. Then there's the factor where even if all three pokemon are perfectly balanced viable characters, everyone has different aptitudes with every character, chances are extraordinarily low that you will click with all three pokemon, and thus with equivalent time you're going to be substantially better with one of the pokemon, meaning you're disadvantaged when playing the other pokemon. Then in the scenario where all three pokemon are perfectly balanced viable characters and you can play all three at an equivalent high level, it would do you best to play the pokemon that is best in the matchup, in which case switching to a worse matchup will still disadvantage you.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Okay now that the idea's in my head, I can't help but really want Jack from Harvest Moon in this game. I can't believe I hadn't thought about this before. Granted it will never happen, especially with all the legal drama about the name. But geez it would be sweet. Now I need to go replay Harvest Moon 64

You and me both. I even made a Jack thread back before Smash 4.

https://smashboards.com/threads/its-harvest-time-jack-for-smash-4.325928/

 

[Koopaul]

Since switching Pokemon is considerably faster than it was an even offers some intangibility. It might be possible to temporarily change to another Pokemon for specific situations and quickly change back to your Pokemon you are most proficient in.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Since switching Pokemon is considerably faster than it was an even offers some intangibility. It might be possible to temporarily change to another Pokemon for specific situations and quickly change back to your Pokemon you are most proficient in.

I expect some unironic "But that takes effort!" replies considering this is the fandom that effectively banned Miis immediately

 

[ZephyrZ]

Pokemon Trainer is a completely different beast from Melee Zelda. Sheik is a character who was good at almost everything while Zelda was one who was bad at almost everything.

Meanwhile, even if we assume Charizard is the worst of the three, he's still a fantastic juggler with a lot of kill potential and grappling capabilities. And if it's Ivysaur, we're talking about a capable zoner with good ranger on her aerials. And Squirtle...lol if you think lil' Squirt will be bad. If you have strong fundamentals finding an opening to switch shouldn't be too difficult for any of them, except maybe Ivy is she lacks "get off me" tools to toss enemies away with.

 

[WaxPython]

despite the Transform process being fast.

It's not fast.

Anyway I don't see an issue the solution is there and no one said it would be easy to master all 3 or find a window of opportunity to switch but why would it be easy lol everything in life has advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Since switching Pokemon is considerably faster than it was an even offers some intangibility. It might be possible to temporarily change to another Pokemon for specific situations and quickly change back to your Pokemon you are most proficient in.

I think this is the potential conclusion to the argument.

If you want to be Charizard, focus on Charizard. Just have a plan based around briefly switching to Squirtle and Ivysaur. Maybe some minimal practice and basic knowledge of what moves are best to use to defend switches.

You might have 3 characters, but a Charizard main could simply consider Squirtle and Ivysaur a special move that essential gives you a Smash 4 airdodge into a potential attack. If that attack connects, you get a free switch in.

I think mains of a specific trainer Pokémon will learn to appreciate the switch as an all out amazing move and that using the next two Pokémon for one or two attacks won’t cause much time in between using their preferred Pokémon and using the switch(special).

 

[Koopaul]

Yeah the intangability can really help the transform game. Where as Zelda in Melee was pretty much ready to be punished when changing, I see a lot more oppertunity to switch things up just momentarily and if necessary.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Found some nice fan made comics earlier, i thought it would be a good idea to share to help people survive the drought

The author and illustrator is named Yayster, you can find more of his smash comics here. He also does some cool Pokemon and Fire Emblem stuff.

Spoiler: More

Spoiler: Even more

Spoiler: Moooooooore!!

More at http://finalsmashcomic.tumblr.com/

 

[osby]

I expect some unironic "But that takes effort!" replies considering this is the fandom that effectively banned Miis immediately

Btw, which one Smash fandom hates more, easy characters or hard characters?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

It's not spamming Rock Smash that's risky though, it's using that move in the first place. It's makes Charizard's awful disadvantage state only slightly less worse by giving him one occasionally useful option, especially if you're fighting against a patient player. Every time you use that move you're taking a huge risk. Even if you really don't want to learn Squirtle for some reason, switching to him and then looking for an opening to switch back to Zard still seems way more practical to me.

Have you played Charizard in tournament, and if so to what degree? Rock Smash's existence as a big hard-hitting counter move is significant just by itself, and forces your opponent to actually read you, instead of just rushing you with attacks you couldn't contend otherwise.

Here are a couple common scenarios:

Mario down throw u-tilting you or a Fox got you in a u-tilt combo at low percents? Without Rock Smash, they can just keep on hitting you without fear. With Rock Smash though, it forces them into a 50/50, where you can Rock Smash them to get out if they keep trying to hit you, or just jump away or grab them yourself if they try shielding to bait the Rock Smash.

Cloud has you in the up air train? Without Rock Smash, you're in pretty dire straits, Cloud can just keep on jamming his sword up your ass and you have no hope to contend it. With Rock Smash however, you can Rock Smash through the up air to get back to ground while knocking Cloud into disadvantage, so now Cloud has to actually read what you're trying to land with and counter it appropriately, instead of just jamming up his uair without a second thought.

As someone who has played Charizard in tournaments for nearly the entirety of my Smash 4 career, Rock Smash has been an important move that has come into play often and has been a constant factor to help mitigate Zard's disadvantage, whether it actually comes into use or not.

As for the risk, not often have I took a big punish for a read Rock Smash (usually it amounts to a grab), while you seem to have no idea how bad it is to switch to a worse character in disadvantage and have to switch twice to get back.

 

[Blargg888]

Btw, which one Smash fandom hates more, easy characters or hard characters?

Easy characters. From what I’ve seen, that tends to be the way people feel.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Switching between characters is not instantaneous nor does it make you safe. You can be punished.

Trying to master multiple characters at once is a requirement to decently run Pokemon Trainer. There's no way really around that. You will not be able to Switch Out on a whim, so you have to get good at the others too as is.

The lack of a fourth special move may or may not matter in the long run.

Of course, it helps that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are all balanced characters, unlike the Zelda/Sheik difference. So it's still easier to work with, but these are two major weaknesses of the characters. Thankfully it looks like stuff like stamina and type weaknesses are gone, so that means they are far more viable than in Brawl. That said, forcefully switching out on death is still a big deal and makes what the second paragraph's point even more important.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Switching between characters is not instantaneous nor does it make you safe. You can be punished.

Trying to master multiple characters at once is a requirement to decently run Pokemon Trainer. There's no way really around that. You will not be able to Switch Out on a whim, so you have to get good at the others too as is.

The lack of a fourth special move may or may not matter in the long run.

Of course, it helps that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are all balanced characters, unlike the Zelda/Sheik difference. So it's still easier to work with, but these are two major weaknesses of the characters. Thankfully it looks like stuff like stamina and type weaknesses are gone, so that means they are far more viable than in Brawl. That said, forcefully switching out on death is still a big deal and makes what the second paragraph's point even more important.

I disagree that it’s that easy to punish the switch when we’ve all seen it used to avoid attacks and punish in turn. It isn’t infallible, but it’s not too shabby.

Switching Potential:

Squirtle to Ivysaur: Ivysaur has good range with fair and bair, meaning the switchout could space some enemies with greater attack range than Squirtle. Essentially an airdodge with safer reaction potential at range. Ivysaur also has razor leaf for those pesky projectile wars.

Ivysaur to Charizard: switching as a dodge into Charizard could set up for a kill using fair, uair, fly, hard punish with flareblitz or space with bair(still possible kill option). It also increases weight, meaning it’s the safest dodge to screw up. Also good for improving Ivysaurs recovery.

Charizard to Squirtle: My first thought is switching as a dodge and then using side b for it’s invulnerability, which also allows you to gain distance from the enemy to switch into Ivysaur for free if that’s your main. Squirtle also has some of the quickest attacks and would therefore react faster assuming the opponent is within range.

The forced switch just isn’t that bad. The speed of the switch itself may not be free, but any landed attack with decent knockback will net you a needed switch.

Clarification: These are just ideas and I am not recommending using these specific examples so much as suggesting that testing methods is absolutely worth the effort and more than likely will lead to interesting combinations.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I disagree that it’s that easy to punish the switch when we’ve all seen it used to avoid attacks and punish in turn. It isn’t infallible, but it’s not too shabby.

View attachment 163522

Switching Potential:

Squirtle to Ivysaur: Ivysaur has good range with fair and bair, meaning the switchout could space some enemies with greater attack range than Squirtle. Essentially an airdodge with safer reaction potential at range. Ivysaur also has razor leaf for those pesky projectile wars.

Ivysaur to Charizard: switching as a dodge into Charizard could set up for a kill using fair, uair, fly, hard punish with flareblitz or space with bair(still possible kill option). It also increases weight, meaning it’s the safest dodge to screw up. Also good for improving Ivysaurs recovery.

Charizard to Squirtle: My first thought is switching as a dodge and then using side b for it’s invulnerability, which also allows you to gain distance from the enemy to switch into Ivysaur for free if that’s your main. Squirtle also has some of the quickest attacks and would therefore react faster assuming the opponent is within range.

Clarification: These are just ideas and I am not recommending using these specific examples so much as suggesting that testing methods is absolutely worth the effort and more than likely will lead to interesting combinations.

I didn't say the weaknesses means they will be low tier. I'm saying they still matter and need to be taken into account to play them well.

But yeah, isn't that proving what I meant about my second point? What you're doing is showing why mastering all the characters is important. It's a weakness because you don't really have a choice when it comes to having a viable Transformation character. You need to be good at the others in order to do the best. Splitting your time among 3 can be very difficult and possibly hurt the character's overall viability. That said, I appear to have been mistaken on the transformation time. My bad.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If you have strong fundamentals, you could play every character in the game to some degree. If you're able to pull off decent combos and control your aerial mobility, your Squirtle will be decent. If you're able to space your aerials and use your projectiles intelligently, so will your Ivysaur. Sure both characters will probably have some further intricacies and complexities to them to give people who study and practice them and edge (especially Squirt), but as it's been pointed out before, Smash isn't actually all that complicated of a fighting game. While Zard, Mewtwo and maybe Corrin are the only characters I'm confident enough with to actually use in a competitive setting, I can still play the bulk of the cast to some degree just because my spacing and fundamentals are at an okay level, and I can guarantee you that if Zero used his single least played character against my Mewtwo he'd still completely wipe the floor with me because his fundamentals are just that much better then mine.

Anyway, if a character doesn't "click" with you, it's probably just because you haven't learned to use them properly. Sonic never clicked with me before, but then I realized that he wasn't meant for aggressive rushdown. Lucario never clicked until I learned that you're supposed to focus more on grappling and combos at lower percents then on zoning like at higher ones. Robin never clicked on me until I learned how to use his Levin Sword for aggressive defense instead of saving its durability to use it only as a hard punish or killing option, and Palutena never clicked with me until I learned how to take advantage of her shield attacks and to not use her tilts. Again, I'll never use them in tournaments, but I still have a basic idea of how to play them.

In fact, when I first played Smash 4, Charizard didn't click with me in the slightest. But then I learned out to play patiently, how to take advantage of his ground speed and grab game, and then he started making sense to me. The fear of Squirtle and Ivysaur "not clicking" just seems silly to me when the only thing that can keep them from clicking is your own stubbornness in not learning them.

Btw, which one Smash fandom hates more, easy characters or hard characters?

We tend to like to main easy characters, but we like to complain about easy ones a lot more to.
See - Cloud. Easy to main, but also frequently called brain dead by the haters. Rarely do I see the hard-to-master Sheik get that same sort of hate.

Have you played Charizard in tournament, and if so to what degree? Rock Smash's existence as a big hard-hitting counter move is significant just by itself, and forces your opponent to actually read you, instead of just rushing you with attacks you couldn't contend otherwise.

Alright, you may have got me there. I've only been to small convention tournaments, although I've placed decently well in most of them. And if it counts for anything, when I play online, I actively seek out players who are better then me so I can improve. I mostly mix up my landings with aerials and triple jumps to make my opponents read me, using Rock Smash only when I'm certain they'll opt for an attack.

But anyway, even if you're stuck with Squirt or Ivy for a short while, it really doesn't sound that awful of a disadvantage to me. Not unless either of them are Melee-Zelda levels bad.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I didn't say the weaknesses means they will be low tier. I'm saying they still matter and need to be taken into account to play them well.

But yeah, isn't that proving what I meant about my second point? What you're doing is showing why mastering all the characters is important. It's a weakness because you don't really have a choice when it comes to having a viable Transformation character. You need to be good at the others in order to do the best. Splitting your time among 3 can be very difficult and possibly hurt the character's overall viability. That said, I appear to have been mistaken on the transformation time. My bad.

I feel the time of the switch will negate a part of what you’re saying. What I am getting from your take on it is that mastery of all 3 is essential.

I differ in that I believe only a working knowledge of the other two will be sufficient due to the switch time being as fast as many other moves. If you have time to charge a Smash or you’ve knocked someone away, you have time to switch and even attack afterward if you don’t try a slower attack.

You should have some practice with all of them, but I do believe someone could choose a main of the 3 and learn to use the others as a supporting role(out of necessity).

I don’t think that will be optimal, but it won’t matter much if you aren’t in a tournament.

 

[Zinith]

Btw, which one Smash fandom hates more, easy characters or hard characters?

What about characters everyone CLAIMS is easy but doesn't have the results to back it up?

IMO, no one should be equating my boi with the likes of or until he reaches top tier...

 

[ToddCam]

Clones are not a fan-made term at all. Sakurai has directly told us that clones exist, using assets of other characters. They aren't even ill-defined, as we know they can have vast differences.

Where did Sakurai use the term clone (or Japanese equivalent)? If he used it, then it's not fan-made. If you are inferring clone = characters with a basis on another character with some changes, this is just that: an inference. Not an official term. If it's not an official term, then it's fan-made. I don't recall any official source using the term clone at any point in the last 17 years. Obviously that's just my own experience, so I have no problem accepting I missed something. Please point to it if you are aware of any. If it is not a fan-made term, I am surprised that it was not used when explicitly coining an official term in Echo Fighter.

It was what drove me crazy with the rigid definition of Echo Fighter that sprung up quickly after their announcement. The example we had of Echoes at the time were Lucina, Dark Pit, and Daisy. With Daisy's differences being unclear, we had to go with the first two, who we have extensive experience with through Smash 4. The very reasonable question of why is Dr. Mario not an Echo needed to be resolved by many. Bill and Nate's off-hand answer in the GameXplain video was the only semi-official attempt to define Echo beyond the vague (translated) statements from the original direct.

Then SmashBoards, who love making up rules on inclusions (no fighting game characters, no more "clones", no more than one character per 3rd party, etc.) took these scraps, and defined away most characters' potential for being Echoes without destroying their individuality. I found this silly, but soon it became an orthodoxy that anyone coming in with a different perception was immediately pounced upon.

Then Chrom happened. At first, it seemed most people understood that they had set unwarranted rigid standards. But some seem to have tried to keep the core of those standards, while now taking into account the bare minimum acceptance of new facts. Sure, an Echo can take assets from a third character, but they still have to be this and this and this and this. Doc Louis can't be an Echo of Little Mac because body shape, size, or whatever. Source? As far as I am aware, none, but I am happy to be proven wrong.

I think people love to have clearly defined terms, but in the real world, almost nothing is clear cut. I've come to accept in my life that I just have to live with these nebulous terms, even though it drives me crazy.

 

[WaxPython]

I didn't say the weaknesses means they will be low tier. I'm saying they still matter and need to be taken into account to play them well.

But yeah, isn't that proving what I meant about my second point? What you're doing is showing why mastering all the characters is important. It's a weakness because you don't really have a choice when it comes to having a viable Transformation character. You need to be good at the others in order to do the best. Splitting your time among 3 can be very difficult and possibly hurt the character's overall viability. That said, I appear to have been mistaken on the transformation time. My bad.

I don't see it as a weakness just more to Pokemon trainer's game. It's like driving a manual car over an automatic you wouldn't say something that takes longer to learn is a weakness because once you put the time in it you reap the benefits.

Avoiding bad matchups and switching to favourable outweighs the cons of putting more effort into learning all 3

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel the time of the switch will negate a part of what you’re saying. What I am getting from your take on it is that mastery of all 3 is essential.

I differ in that I believe only a working knowledge of the other two will be sufficient due to the switch time being as fast an many other moves. If you have time to charge a Smash or you’ve knocked someone away, you have time to switch and even attack afterward if you don’t try a slower attack.

You should have some practice with all of them, but I do believe someone could choose a main of the 3 and learn to use the others as a supporting role(out of necessity).

I don’t think that will be optimal, but it won’t matter much if you aren’t in a tournament.

Well, I am clearly talking about tournament play. Mastery of all 3 is essentially for doing the best there. You'll do generally fine in casual stuff if you simply got the characters down with fundamentals, but it doesn't speak for high end play.

I feel these factors could make them be mid tier at best.

It'd probably help if if the Switch Out actually made you do an attack instead. If you switch out, you aren't going to always get an attack off by default, as it requires some good timing. From my understanding, they switch out rather fast, and then that's it. You don't get an inherent attack off, meaning you still need to be really fast with your timing to keep yourself from being punished.

I don't see it as a weakness just more to Pokemon trainer's game. It's like driving a manual car over an automatic you wouldn't say something that takes longer to learn is a weakness because once you put the time in it you reap the benefits.

Avoiding bad matchups and switching to favourable outweighs the cons of putting more effort into learning all 3

Of course it's an inherent weakness. You can't focus on one character. Splitting up your focus among multiple characters means it takes more time and practice, but also means your focus can make it harder to keep up with people playing just one character. It can be worked around, but it's always going to be a weakness.

Where did Sakurai use the term clone (or Japanese equivalent)? If he used it, then it's not fan-made. If you are inferring clone = characters with a basis on another character with some changes, this is just that: an inference. Not an official term. If it's not an official term, then it's fan-made. I don't recall any official source using the term clone at any point in the last 17 years. Obviously that's just my own experience, so I have no problem accepting I missed something. Please point to it if you are aware of any. If it is not a fan-made term, I am surprised that it was not used when explicitly coining an official term in Echo Fighter.

It was what drove me crazy with the rigid definition of Echo Fighter that sprung up quickly after their announcement. The example we had of Echoes at the time were Lucina, Dark Pit, and Daisy. With Daisy's differences being unclear, we had to go with the first two, who we have extensive experience with through Smash 4. The very reasonable question of why is Dr. Mario not an Echo needed to be resolved by many. Bill and Nate's off-hand answer in the GameXplain video was the only semi-official attempt to define Echo beyond the vague (translated) statements from the original direct.

Then SmashBoards, who love making up rules on inclusions (no fighting game characters, no more "clones", no more than one character per 3rd party, etc.) took these scraps, and defined away most characters' potential for being Echoes without destroying their individuality. I found this silly, but soon it became an orthodoxy that anyone coming in with a different perception was immediately pounced upon.

Then Chrom happened. At first, it seemed most people understood that they had set unwarranted rigid standards. But some seem to have tried to keep the core of those standards, while now taking into account the bare minimum acceptance of new facts. Sure, an Echo can take assets from a third character, but they still have to be this and this and this and this. Doc Louis can't be an Echo of Little Mac because body shape, size, or whatever. Source? As far as I am aware, none, but I am happy to be proven wrong.

I think people love to have clearly defined terms, but in the real world, almost nothing is clear cut. I've come to accept in my life that I just have to live with these nebulous terms, even though it drives me crazy.

Smash 4. He literally referred to Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit as clones during the interviews. This was before the term Echo got coined.

 

[ToddCam]

[...]
Smash 4. He literally referred to Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit as clones during the interviews. This was before the term Echo got coined.

Can you be more precise? Like an actual interview link?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can you be more precise? Like an actual interview link?

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/ Here's the one from SourceGaming.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Well, I am clearly talking about tournament play. Mastery of all 3 is essentially for doing the best there. You'll do generally fine in casual stuff if you simply got the characters down with fundamentals, but it doesn't speak for high end play.

I feel these factors could make them be mid tier at best.

It'd probably help if if the Switch Out actually made you do an attack instead. If you switch out, you aren't going to always get an attack off by default, as it requires some good timing. From my understanding, they switch out rather fast, and then that's it. You don't get an inherent attack off, meaning you still need to be really fast with your timing to keep yourself from being punished.


Of course it's an inherent weakness. You can't focus on one character. Splitting up your focus among multiple characters means it takes more time and practice, but also means your focus can make it harder to keep up with people playing just one character. It can be worked around, but it's always going to be a weakness.


Smash 4. He literally referred to Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit as clones during the interviews. This was before the term Echo got coined.

Well, if we’re talking about tournament level, then the timing will be learned. The switch is fast enough I’ve seen Ivysaur use it as an airdodge into Charizard’s fair on Marth who used Fair. Time will tell if the timing is too tight for it to matter as much as it seems. Not to mention that it could be altered by release or after a few update cycles.

I also feel that one of them is probably going to be better than the others in general. My bet is on Squirtle or Ivysaur. Which means, even the pros may end up choosing a main to switch into as often as they safely can.

 

[ToddCam]

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/ Here's the one from SourceGaming.

Thanks! I appreciate it. But...!

From the article:

Footnote 2. Sakurai’s wording is “model-swap characters.” I used “clones” because that’s just the jargon that’s commonly used.

Not an official term here either.

 

[Shroob]

So, about 6 hours until the 'normal' time Nintendo posts about Direct times, right? 10am EST/7am PST?

 

[Danpal65]

So, about 6 hours until the 'normal' time Nintendo posts about Direct times, right? 10am EST/7am PST?

Yep yep. We'll see whether we're getting anything on Friday then.

 

[Shroob]

Yep yep. We'll see whether we're getting anything on Friday then.

>Friday

Oof, I feel bad for you Aussies.

 

[Danpal65]

>Friday

Oof, I feel bad for you Aussies.

Friday actually works great for me. I'm crazy busy tomorrow so I'll actually be able to watch it live!

Blog update just now for Summit, by the way.

【きょうのステージ】頂上
雪山の頂上部分が崩れて傾斜をすべり落ち、そのまま海へダイブ！という豪快なステージ。雪山のてっぺんではキレイなオーロラが見え、海上ではサングラスに海パンのシロクマが登場し、さらにはファイターを食べようと狙ってる怪魚の姿まで…#スマブラSP　#アイスクライマー pic.twitter.com/aS3AGQ8217

— 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ【スマブラ公式】 (@SmashBrosJP) September 12, 2018

 

[NintenRob]

>Friday

Oof, I feel bad for you Aussies.

Worst part is, last week was at a perfect time for me.


This week, I might be able to catch the first 5, maybe ten minutes live. But for the most part I'll be on my way to a first aid course.

 

[Shroob]

Friday actually works great for me. I'm crazy busy tomorrow so I'll actually be able to watch it live!

Blog update just now for Summit, by the way.

【きょうのステージ】頂上
雪山の頂上部分が崩れて傾斜をすべり落ち、そのまま海へダイブ！という豪快なステージ。雪山のてっぺんではキレイなオーロラが見え、海上ではサングラスに海パンのシロクマが登場し、さらにはファイターを食べようと狙ってる怪魚の姿まで…#スマブラSP　#アイスクライマー pic.twitter.com/aS3AGQ8217

— 大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ【スマブラ公式】 (@SmashBrosJP) September 12, 2018

....A blog update.... for a returning stage?


......Oh god, this is how they're going to pad out October, isn't it?

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Well, if we’re talking about tournament level, then the timing will be learned. The switch is fast enough I’ve seen Ivysaur use it as an airdodge into Charizard’s fair on Marth who used Fair. Time will tell if the timing is too tight for it to matter as much as it seems. Not to mention that it could be altered by release or after a few update cycles.

I was quite optimistic about the switch speed when i saw this on the wiki:

Pokémon Change can now be used in the air and is much quicker, due to no longer having to load each individual Pokémon for every switch. Like in Brawl, it also offers brief invincibility upon switching out, though the quicker switch time allows it to potentially combo into another Pokémon's moves, or function somewhat as an alternative "air dodge". It also allows the user to essentially choose the recovery that suits a situation best.

But then i discussed with some PT mains and they told me that it wasn't fast enough for combos. I'm not well versed in frame data at all but i was told switching was around 40 frames which gives time to reacts (apparently... ). That contradicts the assumption made on the wiki...

Edit: In other words... i don't know anymore but i want to believe inter pokemon combos would be dope.

 

[osby]

By the way how many hours/days are left until the direct?

 

[Shroob]

Quick, what # is Summit's post?

 

[Nethermoosen]

Because I find the topic of Pokémon trainer in Smash Ultimate so interesting and I have commented on their viability a lot, I figured I would share this video, which definitely has an affect on my opinion. The aspects of the character(s) shown lead me to believe that if nothing is changed(at least very little) by release, the character(s) will end up being powerful. At least high tier until someone discovers Wario’s motorcycle sets up the perfect fart.(I don’t know. But something).

The first 30 seconds or so exhibit some mature language in the form of wholesome rap. If you are opposed to foul language, be sure to skip ahead.

Edit: There’s actually a few spatterings of could language in the middle of the explanations, too. I forgot about that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6C6gkE3tEaQ

Blade of Evil's Bane
This video should also answer some of your questions(implied) from your last post.
The switch can lead into pseudo-combos, but it depends on the opponents frame data compared to yours at the moment of the switch. Timing it right won’t always guarantee your opponent won’t be able to attack before you, but the inverse is also true.

 

[Danpal65]

By the way how many hours/days are left until the direct?

No way of knowing without official confirmation. But, if it is at the same time as it was going to be last week, as it seems to, then we're looking at about 28 hours.

Edit: I can't count. It'd be 37 and a bit hours

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Hmm, what if Flare Blitz could be aimed downward, similar to how After Burner Kick can be aimed downward? Then you could use it to call out an opponent’s anti-air, sorta like how you could use Rock Smash as a landing option. It’d be more risky of course and it overall would be more situational, but it would be an interesting mixup (and potentially a destructive yet ultra risky edgeguard option too ahaha)

Because it’s in Zard’s moveset already and I’m suggesting it be given more flexibility to make up for the lack of a fourth special move?
Also, if we just gave Zard Rock Smash back, we’d miss the crazy Flare Blitz reads / edgeguards / string enders.

Flare Blitz would be a lot less effective in that regard, since its armor starts on frame 23 (meaning you'll have to do a pretty hard read to effectively counter an opponet's move with it), and is a lot riskier, with the untechable bounce off of shields, and if you missed a target, Zard would probably get that same bounce off the floor if this was a thing.

That said, Flare Blitz is a bit better for Zard than Rock Smash is, as with Flare Blitz Zard gets a great recovery and Flare Blitz itself is a decent if very flawed move, so I would take Flare Blitz over Rock Smash any day.

Learning how to use is no different than learning other characters

Except it's not, all three of his pokemon are their own individual and very distinct characters with complete movesets. Learning PT as a whole is not equivalent to a single other character, it's three very different preset characters you have to learn to play, while it's extremely unlikely you'll actually have a natural aptitude for all three, and that's before getting to each of the pokemon's own viability as characters.

It's not fast.

Anyway I don't see an issue the solution is there and no one said it would be easy to master all 3 or find a window of opportunity to switch but why would it be easy lol everything in life has advantages and disadvantages.

It's not a matter of it being "easy" or not, but rather that it is simply impractical, and getting the opportunity to switch back twice while playing worse characters in disadvantage is not going to be simple, with chances being you just end up taking a lot more damage or even lose your stock before you can switch back.

 

[papagenos]

Quick, what # is Summit's post?

oddly enough its 141

so some of the "missing" #'s might have nothing to do with the direct now