Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[WallyPalmer]

You're forgetting Sakurai bias also helps in his favor. I think he's very guaranteed in getting in. Also really popular in Japan and was up there in the ballot in the top 20.

Some polls have him top 5

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I thought Sakurai bias actually worked against him since he famously expressed a desire to not overload the game with kirby stuff cause he'd feel like that would be.... biased, but also from what I understand he doesn't seem to put in Kirby stuff he didn't personally invent

Still ignore though he's in the top 20 in the ballot and relatively popular in Japan. Bias or not his chances are almost a lock at this point.

I can imagine too there being a few he'd want to throw in himself while the majority of the newcomers are all based on the ballot so win-win.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd like to say yes.

Then I remember how stingy Square's being with FF7 with TWO music tracks total.


And considering "Muh Ballot" is being considered, and Geno scored fairly high on most recorded fan ballots, my obvious answer is:

"Nah"

Square doesn't own the tracks, though. The creator of the music does. That's how they distribute their copyrights, where the creators own it, not the company who had them compose it.

Square more than likely would not have overcharged. That. Damn. Much. Where only two songs are usable? No. They put a lot into it, with Midgar, the Mii costumes, Cloud's very unique mechanics. It's clear they weren't actually stingy, besides his costumes at best. Ifrit doesn't even use his FFVII design, but his FFVIII design, showing how less stingy they are. To drive it home further, the design used for the Chocobo was from a spin-off game, not FFVII. The only reason the content, even though it's literally not FFVII content is licensed under that is due to a budget/being easier to do so. I mean, even if it's not a literal FFVII thing, all of that stuff still overall appears in FFVII, so it's a good shortcut/easy way to get the most out of it.

As for the ballot, we pretty much can tell that it doesn't generally get a playable character, depending if you think Shovel Knight was super high on it or not.

 

[Nethermoosen]

You're giving me hope. Please take it back so I don't disappoint myself.


What about him? This is if only Rare is concerned here in the decision, and Rare don't own no Minecraft

I’m just filling in for you while you aren’t pulling a Steve logic on Rare characters. I’m here for you, boo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Lycanroc got decomfirmed I would be sad. I’d just like the Pokémon to be in the game in some form or even rockruff.

But there are stronger picks from Pokémon.

 

[Waluigi is not getting in]

If everything Verg said is true then we have 4 more unique characters since two have been revealed since then. He's obviously not counting echoes.

We know one has to be a pokemon.
We know one has to be a Square character(Geno, god help anyone that thinks Sakurai would pick someone else over him)

That leaves two more characters.

Verg said there is possibly Minecraft in the game which would heavily imply Banjo because it's ****ing common sense.

That leaves one character left that he doesn't know and honestly 4 more unique characters is what I expect.

 

[Will]

I’m just filling in for you while you aren’t pulling a Steve logic on Rare characters. I’m here for you, boo.

what the **** is steve logic?

Still ignore though he's in the top 20 in the ballot and relatively popular in Japan. Bias or not his chances are almost a lock at this point.

I can imagine too there being a few he'd want to throw in himself while the majority of the newcomers are all based on the ballot so win-win.

99% of the 10 characters on a list that most people support are "almost a lock". To most people, the only lock is Shadow or Isabelle.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

It's called shielding. Ghirahim broke her shield.

I was thinking about a barrier (reflector like Palutena or Fox/Falco) and this wasn't my point anyway... but maybe you were just looking for this?

Spoiler

 

[Shroob]

Square doesn't own the tracks, though. The creator of the music does. That's how they distribute their copyrights, where the creators own it, not the company who had them compose it.

Square more than likely would not have overcharged. That. Damn. Much. Where only two songs are usable? No. They put a lot into it, with Midgar, the Mii costumes, Cloud's very unique mechanics. It's clear they weren't actually stingy, besides his costumes at best. Ifrit doesn't even use his FFVII design, but his FFVIII design, showing how less stingy they are. To drive it home further, the design used for the Chocobo was from a spin-off game, not FFVII. The only reason the content, even though it's literally not FFVII content is licensed under that is due to a budget/being easier to do so. I mean, even if it's not a literal FFVII thing, all of that stuff still overall appears in FFVII, so it's a good shortcut/easy way to get the most out of it.

As for the ballot, we pretty much can tell that it doesn't generally get a playable character, depending if you think Shovel Knight was super high on it or not.

I mean, sure.

But I cannot see a reality where FF7 gets a newcomer.


My own opinion, but I just don't see it happening, like, at all. Sephiroth and Tifa were basically non-existent on Eng and JP fan polls, so if they were voted for, probably nowhere near as much as other potential SE characters.

Assuming, of course.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I thought Sakurai bias actually worked against him since he famously expressed a desire to not overload the game with kirby stuff cause he'd feel like that would be.... biased, but also from what I understand he doesn't seem to put in Kirby stuff he didn't personally invent

Well, the surge of DK and Metroid content flung the Sakurai Bias theory out the window (and is probably making you-know-who squirm even now), so there's no point in factoring such a factor into character decisions anyways. Since popularity is still a major factor, though, B.W. Dee's chances are particularly high at this point.

 

[RandomAce]

You're forgetting Sakurai bias also helps in his favor. I think he's very guaranteed in getting in. Also really popular in Japan and was up there in the ballot in the top 20.

Ehhhhhhh...

It’s possible, but I don’t think he is guaranteed. Bandanna Waddle Dee just wasn’t at the same levels against some of the other popular fan favorites during the ballot, and I don’t Sakurai is going to use his bias to try to squeeze him in, he’s shown to be hesitant actually to Kirby when it comes to Smash.

But the thing I can see pointing in his favor is how easy it might be to create him. He has a very simple design with a potential moveset that the team can use from Kirby as a reference, and is probably going to be a lot easier to animate, balance, etc.

I can see Bandanna Dee as a character Sakurai and his team may be able to put together very quickly. So maybe there were 4-6 more newcomers planned and they ended up adding Bandanna Dee in as 1 more since he was probably a lot easier to create.

 

[WallyPalmer]

Ehhhhhhh...

It’s possible, but I don’t think he is guaranteed. Bandanna Waddle Dee just wasn’t at the same levels against some of the other popular fan favorites during the ballot, and I don’t Sakurai is going to use his bias to try to squeeze him in, he’s shown to be hesitant actually to Kirby when it comes to Smash.

But the thing I can see pointing in his favor is how easy it might be to create him. He has a very simple design with a potential moveset that the team can use from Kirby as a reference, and is probably going to be a lot easier to animate, balance, etc.

I can see Bandanna Dee as a character Sakurai and his team may be able to put together very quickly. So maybe there were 4-6 more newcomers planned and they ended up adding Bandanna Dee in as 1 more since he was probably a lot easier to create.

There's quite a few polls that suggest his popularity was definitely there. I think you might be underestimating it just a tad.

 

[Starbound]

I really don't know what to think with stages...

It's well known that the stage select can fit 6 more icons on it. However, one of these is probably going to be reserved for a page swap page to cycle through stage builder/DLC stages like in 3DS. Further, one of the icons is likely reserved for the training mode stage as I can't imagine it being the sole available stage in training mode, as that's a step backwards. So that would leave 4 slots.

But then we get to the website...
https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/stage/index.html

At regular 100% zoom on Firefox, there's no room for more stages, as that is readily apparent (and I'm assuming that's the same on other browsers). But as you zoom out to 80% zoom, the layout changes and creates 2 more slots. Meanwhile, you can increase the zoom to like 250% when the website becomes unusable and no more slots are created.

I feel like if there were more stages, they would've future-proofed the layout more. Yet the zoomed out version shows that it is actually possible to fit more stages on the site. It actually looks pretty nice at 80% and doesn't have the extra space on the sides that 100% has.

So this leaves me with 4 numbers according to the in-game menu and 2 according to the website. If there are 2 more stages, that would be 2 more buttons or other icons to put on the stage menu to fill up the menu. Or they just forgot to center it which I personally doubt. Maybe we get a page forward and page back button, but that would still leave one extra spot.

Stage page at 80% zoom for reference:

 

[Pakky]

Square are cowards, greedy cowards, fight me. (Though Tifa and Geno would be ideal, with one track, like c'mon Square)

Konami is greedy but realize a little fan milking doesn't hurt (Give me pyramid Head)

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Zac Fair as a Cloud Echo.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Totally right! But just to be the devil's advocate for a sec, smash tends to toss the canon out the window sometimes so it remains possible (very unlikely imo) that Impa would be HW inspired.

Speaking of which, yous stated that she was a lot like Sheik, i agree but if she ever get into smash, would it be cool as hell if they'd add some magic elements to her moveset (making her a Chrom-like clone instead of a simple echo)? For example, this cool magic barrier from SS (could replace one of Sheik's special):

I may be over optimistic but with Chrom being an hybrid clone, my hopes are high for future clones. Feel free to try and destroy my optimism i dare you...

The magic bomb she uses at 2 minutes in would make a perfect side special replacement

 

[Nethermoosen]

what the **** is steve logic?


99% of the 10 characters on a list that most people support are "almost a lock". To most people, the only lock is Shadow or Isabelle.

It’s the logic used by an Arigarmy to illustrate the likelihood of Steve getting in as a Microsoft owned rep over any original Rare IP

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, sure.

But I cannot see a reality where FF7 gets a newcomer.


My own opinion, but I just don't see it happening, like, at all. Sephiroth and Tifa were basically non-existent on Eng and JP fan polls, so if they were voted for, probably nowhere near as much as other potential SE characters.

Assuming, of course.

That wasn't what I was pointing out anyway. Just that you're wrong about SE being stingy with the music. They wouldn't have been, if they owned it. We might not have had an explosion of music akin to Bayo, but at least 8 tracks like SF is on the more realistic scale.

Though I can see where you misunderstood. I did imply I was saying that. I however don't think we're getting another FFVII or FF character in general either. An AT, at least, and maybe some costumes, though.

The other was a reply to your ballot statement. It does not only get characters in. For all we know, it could get in B&K as nothing more than an AT. And I think they have a good chance of being playable(though never knew why they were thought of as DLC only, at least till people explained it; so Microsoft can get more money from DLC sales. Now that makes logical sense. Business and all).

 

[RandomAce]

There's quite a few polls that suggest his popularity was definitely there. I think you might be underestimating it just a tad.

During 2015? I’m not really sure, I haven’t seen him that much during that time actually, but he is up there, but I don’t think at the level as some of the others I’ve mentioned.

But like I said, I can see Sakurai end up noticing his popularity and end up creating him to at least add one more newcomer later on.

If Lycanroc got decomfirmed I would be sad. I’d just like the Pokémon to be in the game in some form or even rockruff.

But there are stronger picks from Pokémon.

I thought Lycanroc is one of the more stronger picks from Pokémon? There seems to be a lot that supports them (but that’s coming from me).

Well I guess it’s either between Incineroar v. Lycanroc at this point.

 

[Will]

It’s the logic used by an Arigarmy to illustrate the likelihood of Steve getting in as a Microsoft owned rep over any original Rare IP

i dont know if thats supposed to be an insult or what

 

[P.Kat]

I mean is it really that hard to believe that more people would've rallied around Tifa or Sephiroth?
Like don't get me wrong, I think Geno has a likely chance. But it honestly wouldn't surprise me if SE said no, or that Sakurai decided to please a greater amount of people with someone else from FF7 or even another title or entry.
I just wouldn't get your hopes up or set your expectations too high, just consider the other factors surrounding some characters' inclusions.

If we get another Final Fantasy character It'll most likely be Terra Branford.

How would people feel if we ended up with Lara Croft as the second Square Enix rep?

I'd be disappointed that we don't get Sora, or Terra, but since Lara Croft is still on my list as character I want in Smash, the sadness wouldn't last too long, and I'd gladly welcome her.

 

[Shroob]

If everything Verg said is true then we have 4 more unique characters since two have been revealed since then. He's obviously not counting echoes.

We know one has to be a pokemon.
We know one has to be a Square character(Geno, god help anyone that thinks Sakurai would pick someone else over him)

That leaves two more characters.

Verg said there is possibly Minecraft in the game which would heavily imply Banjo because it's ****ing common sense.

That leaves one character left that he doesn't know and honestly 4 more unique characters is what I expect.

I've always thought that 8 newcomers and 8 echo fighters just seemed 'perfect', though my only issue is I have no idea who the last Echo would be out of Ken, Shadow and Isabelle.

 

[Mutsukki]

September 2018 and we're still saying things like "Sakurai bias"

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I've always thought that 8 newcomers and 8 echo fighters just seemed 'perfect', though my only issue is I have no idea who the last Echo would be out of Ken, Shadow and Isabelle.

Impa or Dixie?

 

[Jetsurge]

My own opinion, but I just don't see it happening, like, at all. Sephiroth and Tifa were basically non-existent on Eng and JP fan polls, so if they were voted for, probably nowhere near as much as other potential SE characters.

And they didn't even get trophies

 

[Nethermoosen]

i dont know if thats supposed to be an insult or what

Not really. I was just messing with you. But that staled out after having to explain.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

The magic bomb she uses at 2 minutes in would make a perfect side special replacement

Absolutely. Speaking of hybrid clones (your avatar reminded me) Dixie is another good example of how cool this concept could be if they continue down this road. Her having some of DK's moves would be very fitting imo, like his up-B and cargo grab for example (while the rest of her moveset could still be echoing Diddy's).

 

[Pazzo.]

September 2018 and we're still saying things like "Sakurai bias"

He hates us, why else hasn't he added yet?

 

[Pakky]

Man... Is this even a bad idea?

I mean he doesn't exist but well who cares?

Silent Hill would be nice...

He's such a good wholesome boy I don't see any reason why he would be a bad idea.

Through Bomberman she too made on a Nintendo system, so yay? (I wish this series wasn't trash)

 

[RandomAce]

This thread died for the past 5 minutes.

Only 99 people. I can’t blame people being fed with up with the sudden hype overdrive to be suddenly followed by lack of info.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Reminder about what Vergeben has said if anyone needs a refresher:

• Minecraft content is in the game, most likely as a stage
• Isabelle and Ken are in, both presumably as echo fighters
• A 7th Gen Pokemon that is not Decidueye or Lycanroc is in
• A 2nd Square Enix owned character is in. This could be characters like Geno, Sora, or Slime from Dragon Quest, among others.

Also, what Vergeben has gotten right so far:

• Ridley, Ice Climbers, Snake, and Simon Belmont are in the game
• No cuts from Smash 4
• After E3, Vergeben claimed that at least six newcomers were left. We saw five during the Smash Direct and, with another one on the way this direct most likely, that makes this claim true.
• Vergeben also claimed that Mimikyu was not the Gen 7 Pokemon either. This was confirmed when Mimikyu was revealed as a Pokeball summon.

But nothing on Shadow

 

[Chrono.]

But nothing on Shadow

He Chaos Controlled out of the leaks.

 

[Idon]

Man... Is this even a bad idea?

I mean he doesn't exist but well who cares?

Silent Hill would be nice...

He's such a good wholesome boy I don't see any reason why he would be a bad idea.

I dunno, I think putting Pyramid Head in a fast paced fighting game where he can be beat up seems to defeat his character.
Putting him out in an open area and having Jigglypuff slap him silly just wouldn't sit right with me. IMO, he works far better as a horror-themed boss

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He Chaos Controlled out of the leaks.

Guess he doesnt liked being talked about when it comes to his secrets and edge

 

[MainJPW]

You guys happy now? Y'all shouldn't starve no more.

First the Direct trolling on Twitter and now this. Why are our delicate hopes constantly dashed these last few days?

Awaken me, friends, when The Promised Day finally arrives.

 

[Chrono.]

I dunno, I think putting Pyramid Head in a fast paced fighting game where he can be beat up seems to defeat his character.
Putting him out in an open area and having Jigglypuff slap him silly just wouldn't sit right with me. IMO, he works far better as a horror-themed boss

You're not wrong but I don't think Konami care that much.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

First the Direct trolling on Twitter and now this. Why are our delicate hopes constantly dashed these last few days?

Awaken me, friends, when The Promised Day finally arrives.

Just a few more sets of 25 years and we’ll get that direct

 

[BluePikmin11]

I agree with pupNapoleon 's on determining a character's chances by using just one single logic of "If popular X and Y can get in, so can Z".

That reason alone cannot magically evoke an interesting discussion unless you provide more interesting reasons of your own to back up the newcomer. When I make my newcomer analyses, I do my best to find as many plausible reasons as possible, while also explaining my reasons in great detail to get people to truly understand my perspective.

 

[Idon]

You're not wrong but I don't think Konami care that much.

Well that's just about the dumbest thing I've seen today.
Shoulda gone with James Sunderland.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Every time a fake leak is posted on 4chan Sakurai pushes the direct back another week as punishment