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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Misery Brick

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Then it turns out you're not really much good with Squirtle and Ivysaur, so switching to them doesn't actually help and if anything makes it harder to win, and that by trying to force yourself to play all three you're spreading your development time thinner across three wildly different characters that are very unlikely to all be fitting for you, making you develop more slowly with them while that time could have been put to a different group of characters that actually fit you.

This isn't directed towards you but towards the overhyping I've been seeing Pokemon Trainer get everywhere; I think people are really getting ahead of themselves when they think the Pokemon Trainer is going to be a busted character and act like actually using them as a team is going to be optimal, when you can play the counterpicking game anyway with any character you want and trying to force the individual mons to designated roles (e.g. use Zard for killing!) doesn't work well at all in such a dynamic game like Smash. A big part of why PT failed so hard in Brawl wasn't just because of Stamina or how bad Ivysaur was, but rather how impractical the whole using them as a team was; if Stamina didn't exist in Brawl there would have been a lot more PT players, but 90+% of them would have just focused on Squirtle, with a few low tier heroes focusing on Zard or Ivy, and then a fraction actually trying to use them all as a team. I'm certain after the first few months almost everyone who seriously plays PT is going to focus on a single mon or drop them altogether, regardless of how good each of the pokemon are.

In theory if you're at a near-equivalent high level with all three of the mons and no single character beats them all, then you'll be impervious to paper level matchup-based counterpicking, but the chance of a player clicking with all three and being really good with all of them is pretty damn small, and matchups are only really relevant if the players' characters are near-equivalent in skill levels unless the matchups are extremely lopsided, so that weak Squirtle is still going to get destroyed by that well-practiced Zero Suit Samus that was wrecking your Zard. Then there's being able to use Pokemon Change as a makeshift air dodge, but that has the tremendous con of switching you to a worse character (as you should be using the character you're best with for the matchup to begin with).

The only real benefit I see from being a part of the Pokemon Trainer team is for Ivysaur players being able to change to Zard during recovery as a last ditch recovery attempt to survive what would have been an extremely unlikely/impossible recovery, much like how Sheik players transform into Zelda in Melee to take advantage of her longer recovery when they absolutely need it (and like them then having the trouble of being able to safely get back to the preferred character while being in disadvantage).
Yeah, that's honestly how I'm going to see most people treat PT as, they'll just switch to one of the other Pokémon to cycle back or to use as a recovery. Not many people are going to force themselves to learn all three characters similarly and try to synergize between them.
Whenever he's brought up, I only hear people talk about using Squirtle or any of the other Pokémon individually. Like the whole shtick of the character is to switch and use them alongside each other, like in the Pokémon games themselves.
Sure, can you power through with just Charizard against a team of six?
Definitely.
But someone who uses and understands how or when to use the whole team is a greater benefit than relying on one.
I think this character could be great for people who are used to team fighters like MvC and DBFZ, given you need to have be skilled at each and every character on your team if you want to excel. However, I'm feeling a lot of the Smash competitive scene and people looking foward to PT, aren't exactly cool with or used to that mentality. So yeah, I think a lot of people are going to drop off using him after a couple months.
 
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Chrono.

...
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Hope everyone that hasn't played Snake's game, Metal Gear Solid, aka the greatest video game of all time plans on fixing that soon.

Especially you, reading this post.
I ALMOST bought the collection, but I held off because I was tight on money.

Months later, my PS3 died and now I'm just waiting for them to port that whole thing to PS4
 

Mc.Rad

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Hope everyone that hasn't played Snake's game, Metal Gear Solid, aka the greatest video game of all time plans on fixing that soon.

Especially you, reading this post.
You mean F-Zero GX right?

just kidding MGS is also really good
 
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TMNTSSB4

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We already have it, it's called Fortune Street (Boom Street in the UK).
But that has everyone committing it, I only want Yoshi to do so (Super Mario Sandbox + GTA + Monopoly + Yoshi’s Island + Iceman Erika = Perfection
 

Dukeofdeath5

Smash Lord
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This is the premise:
View attachment 160834

I was about to say your roster is interesting given your avitar and mains, but i guess you can be a fan of the playstyle and not the game.
64 was the first game I ever owned, technically Smash Bros has introduced me to everything (cept...mario I guess?)

Anyways

blood baht.jpg

Made a few corrections after I remembered some stuff. Apparently Jr. was in Galaxy, and I'm pretty sure I've played at least ONE mario game that had yoshi in it. As stated I've played a Zelda but none of those reped in smash, I'm pretty sure deedee was the villain of the kirby game I played, I did in fact play Pokemon Emerald and had the OG punch out on the WII, and though I never owned it I did play Fzero one time at a friends house.
 

MoonlitIllusion

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I found it weird so many people have never played with with R.O.B. toy but then I remember I am old and everyone else is young lol.
R.O.B came out literally 15 years before I was born lmao

Hope everyone that hasn't played Snake's game, Metal Gear Solid, aka the greatest video game of all time plans on fixing that soon.

Especially you, reading this post.
but stealth sections are the worst part of any game, why would I want a whole game about it?
 
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StormC

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How the heck do you not play a single game with Yoshi. I'm honestly dumbfounded.
 
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IGuessItsOver

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I just found out that the longest literature work in history is a Smash Bros Brawl fanfic with like 4.5 million words.
 

blackghost

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What is your cutoff for "younger" fans? I doubt a lot of teenagers or younger are playing Bravely Default, given that it's a JPRG series from a company that made all their classic games before the 2010s. I'd bet most people buying it were at least in their 20s... which is the group you and I fall in. I didn't even own an NES growing up but I later discovered the Mega Man games and became a big fan. There is nothing stopping younger fans from discovering older games and it's sort of naive for you to act like it rarely happens. The DKC games have been rereleased through the Virtual Console multiple times in the last decade and there is nothing stopping younger fans from trying them.

So what is your point that K. Rool appeals largely to older fans? So what? Should he not be in the game? My point is Smash, and Nintendo nowadays, IS largely older fans. The biggest demographic is now people in their 20s and 30s. We are the target audience. People with disposable income who are more picky about what they buy. The idea that we should just be quiet and not want anything is so insulting. This game is going to be a massive success exactly because it is targeting the older Smash demographic who has been with the series since the first game. It's going to be the highest selling Smash of all time and no amount of handwringing on the internet about "think of the children" is going to change that.

I'm sorry that you don't like most of the characters in the game, and I hope more appear that you do like, but taking it out on the characters in the game (and characters that fans are hoping for) is so childish. This series wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us who have been supporting it since the beginning.
Players 25 and under is who i'd call younger.
i dont think a game that sold 1.5 million units has no fans under 20 thats a pretty bold claim especially factoring in japan. i played tales games in the 6th grade. i played final fantasy as well. jrpgs do have fans i like stories. didnt get that itch scratched in cod.

never said king k shouldnt be here i said its a fact what demographic he appeals to. 25 and up is his targetted audience. I didn't recognize game companies until high school, when a company made their last hit isnt relevant to younger players they only see the games. I never said younger fans dont discover older games i said it was less likely they did. its more likely on nintendo systems because they released a lot, but dk wasnt a game i remember as a kid outside the rythme game and a kart game. king k was nonexistent entirely I think you are overestimating how many younger players cared or used the virtual console. you ahve to actively look for old games especially as a kid. It doesnt mean some dont play older games, but comparing that to the ease of kids learning, playing , and attaching to modern games and their character is not nearly as likely as you think.
how did you discover megaman? megaman is very different from king k i remember megaman as a kid. he had a tv show, megaman x and zero were on portal systems.

And every comany wants to keep getting younger fans and fanbases why else would nintendo have made the moves it has? acquiring bayonetta rights, producing a shooter, paid online, 3rd party games more frequently, new younger devs on mario games for mario odyssey, open world zelda, and metriod prime 3 more than likely having online versus. these changes and decisions are targetting a younger audience. Why would smash not do that? it makes no business sense at all. Im not insulting you or anyone in your age group but the younger players DO feel ignored. nintendo older fans have relished on this board and on the internet and the response when players that are under 25 speak up and say "what about us?" is very similar to what you've said. This game didnt need king k, ridley, or geno to be successful, that statement is ridiculous. it was already going to be the launch of the year as soon as we knew it was brand new it was huge. New smash game on + hottest selling system = easy math. My argument isn't childish its built on logic. people want to play characters they have an attachment to. this board often becomes an echo chamber and i believe players around my age do feel ignored by these new selections so far. If you think people between the age of 15-25 don't have disposable income you haven't met many of us.

That last comment is elitist and it comes across people to think they are better than someone else just because they came to like something first. its a toxic mentality and should stop in everything.
 
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ZephyrZ

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Then it turns out you're not really much good with Squirtle and Ivysaur, so switching to them doesn't actually help and if anything makes it harder to win, and that by trying to force yourself to play all three you're spreading your development time thinner across three wildly different characters that are very unlikely to all be fitting for you, making you develop more slowly with them while that time could have been put to a different group of characters that actually fit you.

This isn't directed towards you but towards the overhyping I've been seeing Pokemon Trainer get everywhere; I think people are really getting ahead of themselves when they think the Pokemon Trainer is going to be a busted character and act like actually using them as a team is going to be optimal, when you can play the counterpicking game anyway with any character you want and trying to force the individual mons to designated roles (e.g. use Zard for killing!) doesn't work well at all in such a dynamic game like Smash. A big part of why PT failed so hard in Brawl wasn't just because of Stamina or how bad Ivysaur was, but rather how impractical the whole using them as a team was; if Stamina didn't exist in Brawl there would have been a lot more PT players, but 90+% of them would have just focused on Squirtle, with a few low tier heroes focusing on Zard or Ivy, and then a fraction actually trying to use them all as a team. I'm certain after the first few months almost everyone who seriously plays PT is going to focus on a single mon or drop them altogether, regardless of how good each of the pokemon are.

In theory if you're at a near-equivalent high level with all three of the mons and no single character beats them all, then you'll be impervious to paper level matchup-based counterpicking, but the chance of a player clicking with all three and being really good with all of them is pretty damn small, and matchups are only really relevant if the players' characters are near-equivalent in skill levels unless the matchups are extremely lopsided, so that weak Squirtle is still going to get destroyed by that well-practiced Zero Suit Samus that was wrecking your Zard. Then there's being able to use Pokemon Change as a makeshift air dodge, but that has the tremendous con of switching you to a worse character (as you should be using the character you're best with for the matchup to begin with).

The only real benefit I see from being a part of the Pokemon Trainer team is for Ivysaur players being able to change to Zard during recovery as a last ditch recovery attempt to survive what would have been an extremely unlikely/impossible recovery, much like how Sheik players transform into Zelda in Melee to take advantage of her longer recovery when they absolutely need it (and like them then having the trouble of being able to safely get back to the preferred character while being in disadvantage). Overall as a Zard player in Smash 4, I would have much preferred keeping him solo and having an actual down special, but I understand why he was tied back to the PT for the "Everyone is Here!" thing, and Rock Smash wasn't essential so he can still be usable if the rest of him is buffed sufficiently.
I actually agree that people are overhyping the trainer a bit, but I'm going to be practicing Squirtle and Ivysaur nonstop from the day Ultimate drops. I definitely don't think they'll be an easy win button for me. I actually already use Mewtwo and Corrin as secondaries to cover Zard's really bad match ups (mainly Mewtwo), and I doubt either Squirtle or Ivy's learning curves to be as bad as the purple cat fetus's. I also have the advantage of being very familiar with Charizard and Ivy seems just like the sort of character who'd click with me with good range on her aerials and a single, solid projectile. Squirtle is the only one I'm worried I might struggle with as his playstyle doesn't quite seem to match that of any of the characters I currently play casually or competitively.

That said, if you do master all three, I can think of some practical reasons to switch mid combat, and one of them is weight. Squirtle and Zard cover eachother's weaknesses so much better than Sheik and Zelda. Switching to Squirtle sounds like a fantastic way to get out of juggling situations with Zard. Meanwhile, switching to Zard might be a good idea at higher percents because superheavies can be so hard to kill.

And then there's simply that you can't counter pick midmatch. If I go on For Glory and start out with Charizard only to find that I'm facing a Samus, I can't just switch to Mewtwo instantly. I'll have to play through that entire match first. Pokemon Trainer fixes that problem for me.
 
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Enchess

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I found it weird so many people have never played with with R.O.B. toy but then I remember I am old and everyone else is young lol.
You know, it's funny. NES is before my time, but I played the majority of the classics on there. My grandma had bought a lot of that stuff when NES came out to have for when grandkids visited. I played a ton of Duck Hunt growing up despite it being before my time as a result. But for whatever reason she skipped ROB.
 

KMDP

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Decided to play the game.
GIHP.png

There are fewer Xs than I thought there'd be.

Note 1: The only Star Fox game I've played is Star Fox Adventures, and I didn't finish it so I left Falco crossed out even though he appears in it at the end.
Note 2: Yes, I really haven't played almost all the games on the bottom row. :laugh: The only games I've played with ROB in them are Mario Kart and Smash, but I didn't consider that enough to justify not crossing him out.
Note 3: I played bits of Super Metroid, Earthbound and F-Zero via the Masterpieces section in Brawl; like ROB, I didn't consider this enough to justify not crossing them out.
 

blazefan519

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See I didn't include Wario, despite him being in striker, kart, baseball and golf cause he reps Warioware, that **** don't count
There's lots of characters who are in games where it's not "theirs." :ultbowser::ultfalco::ultganondorf::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:, etc.
Basically since they count as their own series in Smash, I count them as their own series here. Never played Yoshi's Island but have played DKCR and DKCTF, as well as the first WarioWare game.
 
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Noipoi

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There's lots of characters who are in games where it's not "theirs." :ultbowser::ultfalco::ultganondorf::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ultridley::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:, etc.
If a character doesn't star in their own game then it's fine to count them imo.
You telling me you haven't played Super Bowser Land? Falco Adventure? Pokemon: Let's Go Mewtwo version? Ridley Babysitter 64?
You're missing out dude.
 
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Fenriraga

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I feel the criteria is either

A. Their Original Game/First game they appeared in
B. A game they were the star of.

I wouldn't count MKDS as having played :ultrob:'s game, for instance, but I would count Shadow Dragon as playing a ":ultmarth:" game.
 

Enchess

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You telling me you haven't played Super Bowser Land? Falco Adventure? Pokemon: Let's Go Mewtwo version? Ridley Babysitter 64?
You're missing out dude.
Just to be annoying, Bowser does actually have Bowser's Inside Story, which is "his game". Also, Mewtwo is playable, so I think it's fair to call Pokemon Red/Blue 'his game' (at least as fair as it is to call it Pikachu's, since Pikachu only matters more than ordinary Pokemon in the anime)
 

Opossum

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I decided to reorganize my list as a tier list. Why not?
image.jpeg
 

Zinith

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I feel the criteria is either

A. Their Original Game/First game they appeared in
B. A game they were the star of.

I wouldn't count MKDS as having played :ultrob:'s game, for instance, but I would count Shadow Dragon as playing a ":ultmarth:" game.
So for :ultyoshi::ultwario::ultdk: that would include Super Mario World, Super Mario Land 2 and Donkey Kong (arcade) respectively?
 

MrRoidley

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DlyzrFpU0AA0TLW.png

I almost didn't count Dark Samus and Marth but hey: I did play through a lot of MP3 but I just never got to the part Dark Samus appears, and I did play at least an hour or two from Shadow Dragon and I did play through the entirety of Tokyo Mirage Sessions (it counts????) lmao
And R.O.B. is a bit blurry since Mario Kart DS is a thing
Plus I'm counting Pokémon Trainer as a generic Trainer, not necessarily the Kanto one
 
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Zinith

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View attachment 160847
I almost didn't count Dark Samus and Marth but hey: I did play through a lot of MP3 but I just never got to the part Dark Samus appears, and I did play at least an hour or two from Shadow Dragon and I did play through the entirety of Tokyo Mirage Sessions (it counts????) lmao
And R.O.B. is a bit blurry since Mario Kart DS is a thing
Wait what? Dark Samus literally appears in the opening cutscene of MP3...
 

Enchess

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So for :ultyoshi::ultwario::ultdk: that would include Super Mario World, Super Mario Land 2 and Donkey Kong (arcade) respectively?
Well... Technically Donkey Kong Arcade is Cranky. If you go the "well... technically..." route I think you have to go the most extreme version of it.
 

L9999

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Game:

:ultmario::ultluigi::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultyoshi::ultwario::ultrosalina::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultrob::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultgreninja::ultjigglypuff::ultlucario::ultmewtwo::ultpikachu::ultpichu::ultpokemontrainer::ultroy::ultchrom::ultrobin:ultlucina::ultmarth::ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede::ultlucas::ultness::ultyounglink::ultzelda::ultsheik::ultlink::ultganondorf::ulttoonlink::ultpacman::ultduckhunt::ulticeclimbers::ultsamus::ultzss::ultridley::ultrichter::ultsimon::ultmiifighters::ultfox::ultfalco::ultfalcon::ultwolf:

All of the Mario characters and R.O.B were from playing Mario Kart, Mario 64 DS and 2D Mario games. I have played all the Pokemon gens and the Mother games. I played Kirby Super Star and cleared the Spring Break story and Meta Knight's Revenge. From FE I have played the original 5, GBA and Awakening. From Zelda I have played 4 Swords and Ocarina of Time. I beat Metroid last month and I have been playing Simon's Quest and Dracula X after the Direct. I played Ice Climber, Star Fox 64, FZero, and Duck Hunt on an arcade machine with pirated games. It is a sin not playing a game without Miis or OG Pac-Man.

Not played:

:ultdoc::ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultdarksamus::ultinkling::ultlittlemac::ultmegaman::ultgnw::ultolimar::ultpit::ultvillager::ultwiifittrainer::ultryu::ultpalutena::ultdarkpit::ultsnake::ultsonic::ultike::ultkrool:

Never touched Sonic, Metal Gear, Bayo, Street Fighter, Pikmin, Final Fantasy, Kid Icarus, Punch Out, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Wii Fit, and Megaman. I haven't played Fates and the garbage Ike comes from. I haven't played Metroid Prime. I played DKCR but not the SNES DKCs.

I forgot Shulk. Haven't played Xenoblade.
 
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Fenriraga

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So for :ultyoshi::ultwario::ultdk: that would include Super Mario World, Super Mario Land 2 and Donkey Kong (arcade) respectively?
I'd say yes, but their other games would be acceptable as well I feel (Yoshi's Island, Wario Land/Ware, DKC or the like). So long as it's their game and they're the star of it, or at least debuted in it in the case of the 3 you mentioned.
Honestly the rules are whatever you want them to be, this is just how I feel it should be.
 
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