Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Enchess]

Banjo is definitely well-known and well loved. Let's please not pretend he's a forgotten character. I mean Yooka-Laylee had that super successful Kickstarter campaign for goodness sake. It's entire thing was "remember Banjo? That again". Anyone with interest in platforming history knows him.

Agnes is less well-known because let's face it, it's niche. I doubt most kids would recognize her. But on the other hand, come on, do people really think it's that upsurd she'd get in over Geno? She has similar Nintendo relevance to Bayonetta and is considered by many a 3DS icon (much like Banjo is a N64 icon). Plus it's been heavily hinted recently she'll get another game. And guess what? It'll almost for sure be a Switch exclusive that Nintendo pushes heavily.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Gee, let's look at those comparisons one by one
Ashley: Japanese fan favourite character
Bandana Dee: Modern Kirby character meaning you need to be a fan of Kirby Returns to Dreamland at the very least
Geno: A 'literally who' character for Europe who became popular because of a youtube video and is only known today because of his Smash fanbase. Appearances are one game as a side character, a cameo and Smash 4 Mii costume to Smash fans
Isaac: Dead franchise, wasn't even playable in the third and final game
If your point is "Well you didn't know Banjo? Well I didn't know these!" then I don't really get these comparisons as they really don't work, Bandana Dee's arguably the most well-known one but if Banjo is supposed to be such a legend, why compare to a modern character?

My point is you're comparing Banjo to said characters and that he isn't known outside of the smash fan base

And that that idea is laughable

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Banjo isn't as iconic as people want him to be, it's mostly nostalgia.
The harsh truth is that even Rayman is more recognizable than him.
Banjo was the Shovel Knight of its time, a one hit-wonder that never took off into success.

Now here are the shoo-in DLC chars that will surely get added in the game:
-ARMS character
-Rex & Pyra
-A Pokemon

 

[StormC]

Also this "lol only old people know who Banjo" business is silly.

Smash is a 20 year old franchise. It has a huge adult fanbase, and so does the Switch - people in their 20s and 30s are the biggest demographic for it.

How many kids are out here playing old Castlevania games with Simon Belmont or DKC games with K. Rool in them? I guess they all got to play Samus Returns and learn who Ridley was because he was recent, right?

 

[Michele]

Oh wow, I feel like that Agnès thing has got out of hand...

As much as I would like her to be in the game, I don't see it happening, unless it's to market/adversite for Bravely Third. Like if you agree!

 

[Arcadenik]

there are a number of glaring errors such as the accent on Agnes's name etc

What's wrong with the accent on Agnes's name?

 

[Zathura]

Personally, if anyone is going to work as Robin's echo, I would opt with Celica.

welp, don't know her either that's what I get for only playing awakening and fates, I'll take your word for it tho

 

[kylexv]

In terms of possible DLC characters, I feel we'll probably see Spring Man and Rex in some capacity.

Also, I think if Banjo were to get it, he would be DLC, but that's only my two cents on the matter.

 

[DevaAshera]

If we are talking about 'iconicness' we can't seriously put Agnès in the conversation. The fact that a lot of people confused her with another character when we saw her already says quite a lot about her status, and I don't think it's 100% the crappy leak's fault.

It was definitely the crappy leak's fault, the art style didn't match Bravely Default's and you can't rely on stylistic stuff to be signifiers when it's an anime style. If someone made an off-model close up of Shulk, Marth, Lucina, or Roy, you'd likely have the same reaction of people not knowing who they were meant to be.

Also I just realized how ****ing funny it is how Cloud ****ing never got requests from the core base back in 4 and was a meme for Brawl yet back in November 2015 we all got shook

Yeah, it was funny. I remember people thinking Geno, Agnès, or Neku were more likely SE reps.

I think you're actually underselling Tails by quite a lot here.
Tails is the Luigi to Sonic's Mario. He's one of the most iconic characters in gaming and platformers period. Just because Shadow has a larger and more vocal fanbase, doesn't mean that he has more of a status in gaming.
Hell, look at Sonic Mania. A lot of people were celebrating it as it explored classic Sonic and gave another game like the originals, and was devoid of modern Sonic.
Like for instance, it's comparing Juri to Ken or maybe Chun-Li. ( I think Chun has more official costumes than her, so she may not be an apt comparison.) But you see a lot more love for Juri in the general SF community than you do for one of the most iconic characters of the series, Ken. That doesn't mean that Juri is considered way more iconic than Ken, it's just they have a larger fanbase.
But if you ask anyone who's familiar with video games, or at least knows a bit about them, who's more important or recognizable, they'll instantly say Ken.
Same goes for Shadow and Tails.

That's true, but if we got a unique newcomer from Street Fighter, it'd be Chun-Li..and I have little doubt that she'd be in before Ken if she could be an echo..people would also likely say Chun-Li is more iconic, important, and recognizable.

This isn't about importance or recognizability, it's about popularity and Shadow is more popular then Tails and easier to do as an Echo..kinda like the possible reason Luigi got in over Bowser, he was a popular, easy clone.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, btw, Bravely Default is a big deal for RPGs considering it's what made Square go "hey maybe people like RPGs that actually play like RPGs" so they went "but do they like LIKE RPGs?" and made Octopath while shipping much less copies than there was demand for so hopefully Square now stops with their bull**** and gives us more and more proper RPGs.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

My point is you're comparing Banjo to said characters and that he isn't known outside of the smash fan base

And that that idea is laughable

Wait, I'm the one comparing them when they're YOU'RE examples?

The idea that Banjo Kazooie isn't a relic of the past is laughable to me when most fans don't even know 2/5s of the franchise

 

[Rie Sonomura]

92MilesPrower i miss your fan made Snake codecs, think you’ll get back to those?

 

[Michele]

What's wrong with the accent on Agnes's name?

Agnes is spelt wrong as Agnés, and most peoples make this kind of mistake, even I do this mistake. The proper name is Agnès.

But, now that I mention her, why does she has an accent on the e in her name? I can't seem to be able to find out.

 

[Deleted member]

Relevancy doesnt even matter tho. No one outside the Smash or DK fan base knows who K.Rool was, especially since hes been gone for ten years, and that's counting obscure spinoff. Last main game was N64. Relevancy doesnt matter, what matters is who is wanted by Smash fans

This is what I've been saying to a lot of my friends who play Smash and them saying newer characters aren't gonna get in because "they're too new." We've had too many instances of characters and content that come from games that're "too new", so at this point if we got K. Rool - which hasn't appeared in a big way in almost 20 years - then relevancy really doesn't matter at that point. Speculation is all good, but relevancy as a detrimental factor barely holds up as much as it would back in the days. Sakurai could add in Excitebiker and I'll be hyped regardless because I CAN RIDE OVER AND DO WHEELIES ON THESE FOOLS.

 

[praline]

Bravely Default also has hella good music. Just go listen to Ringabel’s theme. It’s amazing.

 

[Koopaul]

I don't know if I'd consider a character that has only appeared in one game "iconic".

You can say that they are "relevant" or "popular". Those might be true amd good reasons to be in Smash. But you can't say they are "iconic". You need to appear in a few games before you are iconic. Or atleast had your game rerelased or remade.

 

[Spazzy_D]

That's not true. Bravely Default, the best selling game in the series, sold around 1 million. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie sold better in comparison.

And Gex sold like 3 times the amount of Banjo Kazooie. Sales isn't everything, and neither of those series is that large.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, it was funny. I remember people thinking Geno, Agnès, or Neku were more likely SE reps.

Considering I never saw Neku talk for Smash 4 I'm inclined to believe you mean Brawl, around the time TWEWY came out. Are you a time traveller?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Banjo isn't as iconic as people want him to be, it's mostly nostalgia.
The harsh truth is that even Rayman is more recognizable than him.
Banjo was the Shovel Knight of its time, a one hit-wonder that never took off into success.

Now here are the shoo-in DLC chars that will surely get added in the game:
-ARMS character
-Rex & Pyra
-A Pokemon

You forgot a fire emblem three houses character and sylux

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I guess they all got to play Samus Returns and learn who Ridley was because he was recent, right?

Did Samus Returns even sell that well?

 

[Jim_Puff]

I'm at the point where I'm so satisfied with the roster as is that any addition is just a bonus. In terms of this Agnes vs Banjo debate, I think it seems a bit silly.

I've played the first Banjo game and haven't touched the franchise ever since, so I am personally not attached to the character. I do recognize his importance and understand why people want him in: as far as I'm concerned it makes perfect sense to include him and I'd be hyped for the people getting hyped.

Now on the other hand, I've never played Bravely Default and basically have no idea on the mechanics/story/characters apart from that it's a JRPG. But after researching it a bit (and noticing the success of the game), I also think she'd fit in the game as well. From the little research I did, she's the weakest of the party members but I suppose the most popular/recognizable? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) In any case, I can totally see Sakurai acknowledging Bravely Default in the game and putting Agnes in there. She seems like she'd offer a unique playstyle and would grant even more exposure to a franchise that seems to already be doing great.

To say one should make it over the other is a bit silly. I understand having preferences, but they both have a reason to be in the game. I personally would be fine with one of them, both of them, or none of them, and I get that I'm probably in the minority by saying I'm already fine with the current roster.

I don't like saying, "this character is a better choice than this other character." They're both good choices.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Wait, I'm the one comparing them when they're YOU'RE examples?

The idea that Banjo Kazooie isn't a relic of the past is laughable to me when most fans don't even know 2/5s of the franchise

People don't need to know an entire franchise's catalog for a character to be iconic, a very extreme example of that would be Pac-Man, a more comparable example would be Crash and Spyro.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Considering I never saw Neku talk for Smash 4 I'm inclined to believe you mean Brawl, around the time TWEWY came out. Are you a time traveller?

Hi I wanted Neku for Smash 4

There weren’t many supporters but we existed

Ps. You guys really need to play TWEWY. trust me you’ll love it

 

[Opossum]

I'd honestly love another magic user, robin's my favourite FE rep. I haven't played the fe game he's from, would he work as a robin echo? or is he different in some way

The main issue is that Merric doesn't use swords, so he wouldn't really work at all as an echo. He's a purely magical character.

In a perfect (for me, anyway ) world where Merric got into Smash, he'd likely have a set built around his legendary wind tome, Excalibur. His moves using the tome would do much more damage to airborne foes, just like in the main series, making him a potent anti-air focused character. However, he'd be prone to ambush, being fairly light and easy to knock away if the foe manages to get close, since he's canonically frail and fragile.

It's weird, too. Merric has pretty good credentials in a vacuum, but due to the nature of Fire Emblem's cast being ever-changing, he's a no-hoper.

+ He has a playstyle filled with untapped potential as a decidedly anti-air magical wizard.
+ He's the childhood best friend of Marth, the face of the franchise.
+ His design inspired lots of other Fire Emblem Mage units, becoming an archetype in the process. He was the first playable Mage.
+ Has a signature weapon to set himself apart from other units.
+ He's visually distinct from the currently-playable Fire Emblem cast.
+ He's also voiced by Yuri Lowenthal, Marth's voice actor, lowering the cost of another VA.
+ Due to becoming Marth's brother-in-law, he's related to three of the current playable Fire Emblem characters (four depending on who Robin marries, five if Corrin marries Odin).

- He's relatively minor in the grand scheme of Fire Emblem.

It just goes to show how specific series' barriers for entry are taller than others. If Merric had these credentials in any other non-Pokémon franchise, he'd have been in the game already.

 

[Flynn__]

It was definitely the crappy leak's fault, the art style didn't match Bravely Default's and you can't rely on stylistic stuff to be signifiers when it's an anime style. If someone made an off-model close up of Shulk, Marth, Lucina, or Roy, you'd likely have the same reaction of people not knowing who they were meant to be.

Ken was way off-model too, and people had no problem recognizing him though, nor said "hey isn't that Dante!?".

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

It's very very noticeable that many of the people claiming Banjo is too dead and not recognizable or iconic enough to be in Smash were also saying the exact same thing about K. Rool before he was revealed.
Just something interesting I thought would be worth pointing out.

They're simply moving the goalposts until the game and related material is fully-released. The phrase "Don't you people ever learn?" can apply to them.

What makes me mad about Agnes being in the leak is that she isn't even the main character of either games.

It's this guy.

One can say the same about Sans and Frisk from Undertale. People don't realize that the main character of a third-party has to get in first before a fan-favorite (a pattern that isn't broken so far).

 

[Zathura]

This is what I've been saying to a lot of my friends who play Smash and them saying newer characters aren't gonna get in because "they're too new." We've had too many instances of characters and content that come from games that're "too new", so at this point if we got K. Rool - which hasn't appeared in a big way in almost 20 years - then relevancy really doesn't matter at that point. Speculation is all good, but relevancy as a detrimental factor barely holds up as much as it would back in the days. Sakurai could add in Excitebiker and I'll be hyped regardless because I CAN RIDE OVER AND DO WHEELIES ON THESE FOOLS.

Thing is though, with the roster supposedly being completely finalised way back in 2015, "too new" could genuinely be a valid argument as to why characters won't be in, although then again, greninja was planned for 4 before his games even came out so who really knows

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did Samus Returns even sell that well?

Sold well enough for a Metroid game, which I'd say earns bonus points due to the crap marketing. Revealing the game only like 3 few months before release? That ****'s unheard of

Ken was way off-model too, and people had no problem recognizing him though, nor said "hey isn't that Dante!?".

lol that's funny as it added up to Ken's Dante costume in SFV

Hi I wanted Neku for Smash 4

There weren’t many supporters but we existed

Ps. You guys really need to play TWEWY. trust me you’ll love it

I dunno, I have bad experiences with TWEWY. I bought the game on ebay and the package got lost in China

 

[IGuessItsOver]

You forgot a fire emblem three houses character and sylux

Oh **** true, i forgot Sakurai loves FE.

As for Sylux, i'd be alright with him in.

 

[Will]

One can say the same about Sans and Frisk from Undertale. People don't realize that the main character of a third-party has to get in first before a fan-favorite (a pattern that isn't broken so far).

Spoiler

sans is technically his own protagonist in the genocide route

 

[dezeray112]

So apparently the leaker (in which I assume is the same leaker) stated this:

I do feel that this leaker is grasping at straws and making further excuses.

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...g-what-they-want.64422/page-145#post-12076909

 

[Over9000BPM]

Did Samus Returns even sell that well?

Rehabilitation of Metroid after Other M is going to be a process lol

 

[Zathura]

The main issue is that Merric doesn't use swords, so he wouldn't really work at all as an echo. He's a purely magical character.

In a perfect (for me, anyway ) world where Merric got into Smash, he'd likely have a set built around his legendary wind tome, Excalibur. His moves using the tome would do much more damage to airborne foes, just like in the main series, making him a potent anti-air focused character. However, he'd be prone to ambush, being fairly light and easy to knock away if the foe manages to get close, since he's canonically frail and fragile.

It's weird, too. Merric has pretty good credentials in a vacuum, but due to the nature of Fire Emblem's cast being ever-changing, he's a no-hoper.

+ He has a playstyle filled with untapped potential as a decidedly anti-air magical wizard.
+ He's the childhood best friend of Marth, the face of the franchise.
+ His design inspired lots of other Fire Emblem Mage units, becoming an archetype in the process. He was the first playable Mage.
+ Has a signature weapon to set himself apart from other units.
+ He's visually distinct from the currently-playable Fire Emblem cast.
+ He's also voiced by Yuri Lowenthal, Marth's voice actor, lowering the cost of another VA.
+ Due to becoming Marth's brother-in-law, he's related to three of the current playable Fire Emblem characters (four depending on who Robin marries, five if Corrin marries Odin).

- He's relatively minor in the grand scheme of Fire Emblem.

It just goes to show how specific series' barriers for entry are taller than others. If Merric had these credentials in any other non-Pokémon franchise, he'd have been in the game already.

Huh, honestly sounds like he would be a really interesting character, and I don't even know him, good explanation. I have to get around to playing more FE games.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Ken was way off-model too, and people had no problem recognizing him though, nor said "hey isn't that Dante!?".

If that "leak" had a poor quality render of someone like Sora, people would also recognise him before shuddering at said low quality. An anime artstyle isn't really a good explanation why people didn't recognise Agnes.

 

[Fenriraga]

By the way, are people just forgetting that Sakurai has talked about Banjo in the past?

Yes, it was to mention that Banjo would be unlikely due to financial and legal reasons, but that was a long time ago- Before even Sonic and Snake- and likely because of the still-recent transition Rare had going with Microsoft. He, in his own words, said he knew many considered Banjo a shoo-in.

Yes, that was a long time ago. So was Final Fantasy 7.

"But 7 had Advent Children and is referenced a lot by Square!"

Banjo had Nuts and Bolts and is referenced a lot by Rare. Including in their most recent Sea of Thieves.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That render leak is fake as all hell for one good reason: the character select screen (CSS)... or lack thereof.

The CSS matters more than ever for Ultimate because characters are ordered in the time they got revealed, Echo Fighters being the sole exception as they are besides their original.

As such, anyone with access to a full CSS is thus completely aware of not only who is in the game, but also the specific order in which every unique newcomer will be revealed.

The fact that those render leaks clearly show CSS stuff yet conveniently avoids the one thing that would give us the most crucial information towards proving or disproving it is extremely suspicious.

I don't even need to test the renders to know this **** is just a phony.

EDIT: Bonus points for Agnès' name not even being written right lmao

 

[IGuessItsOver]

So apparently the leaker (in which I assume is the same leaker) stated this:

I do feel that this leaker is grasping at straws and making further excuses.

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...g-what-they-want.64422/page-145#post-12076909

>no tripcode
>anonymous imageboard
IT'S REAL

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So apparently the leaker (in which I assume is the same leaker) stated this:

I do feel that this leaker is grasping at straws and making further excuses.

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...g-what-they-want.64422/page-145#post-12076909

Oh yay

You lost, bruh. The Isaac render was literally made by ArtsyOmni. Give it up.

Ps. Figure now’s a good time to drop a link to the Neku thread, since he was mentioned.

 

[DevaAshera]

welp, don't know her either that's what I get for only playing awakening and fates, I'll take your word for it tho

This is Celica, she's one of the two main characters in Fire Emblem Gaiden on the Famicom and Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia, Gaiden's remake, on the 3DS.

Spoiler

She could work as a Robin echo insanely well, like Robin, she uses swords and spells. However, she only uses Tomes in Heroes, in Gaiden & Echoes spells cost users HP, so a difference could be Celica having a Pichu-like damage mechanic for spells (maybe balance it with better Nosferatu use, which iirc Celica can use in Echoes).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So apparently the leaker (in which I assume is the same leaker) stated this:

I do feel that this leaker is grasping at straws and making further excuses.

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...g-what-they-want.64422/page-145#post-12076909

The guy's putting up a video? Lmao. I can guarantee you it's going to be shock value