Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Captain Fun]

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

Banjo's popularity is kind of weird. He's from an era a lot of people like to fondly remember but younger people only know who he is from listening to old Rare fanboys and N64 kiddies reminiscing on the "gold ol' days" and ranting about how Microsoft neglects Rare's IPs.

I would personally love Banjo in Smash but he definitely resonates with a specific kind of crowd.

As for Geno I'm pretty sure someone referred to the phenomenon as the "Boba Fett effect." I thought that was apt. I'm not judging if you want him though.

 

[Flynn__]

If we are talking about 'iconicness' we can't seriously put Agnès in the conversation. The fact that a lot of people confused her with another character when we saw her already says quite a lot about her status, and I don't think it's 100% the crappy leak's fault.

 

[Chandeelure]

My entire childhood was Mario and I only know Geno thanks to Smash speculation.

 

[Sharkarat]

I believe the opposite, I think if we're getting Shadow it's going to have to be alongside Tails.
I think if we get a single Sonic character, it has to be Tails. I mean the fox is way more iconic than Shadow, and he's the P2 character of Sonic.
Fanbases be damned.
I honestly always believed that if we didn't get Tails, it'd be Knuckles but he's already an AT.
Although, Sakurai could just pull the rug out from under me, and just announce Shadow, and have me sitting here kinda surprised, but hey.

Nah, I Disagree on Tails being way more Iconic (except maybe within the sonic fanbase itself). Shadow is more iconic to the general gaming populace than you Tails fans give him credit for. And Based on stuff like Shadow mods download numbers he's also really popular among smash Fans.
There's really not much reason to be surprised at Shadow getting in before Tails.

 

[Zathura]

I don't know what world you guys live in that two games from 20 years ago are iconic and a huge part of gaming history. It's incredibly easy for someone to just have never heard of Banjo when it was an actual thing.
Just because YOU personally experienced it, doesn't mean EVERYONE experienced it.
Basically, what I'm trying to say
View attachment 160694

That's the thing though, I didn't experience it, and yet I still knew him, even before getting involved with any smash speculation, as did many many others, because banjo was such a big part of the n64 era. It actually seems YOU'RE the one saying he's not iconic just because YOU don't think he is.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

Speaking for B&K, because those of us who played Smash 64 back in the day are more likely to have played Banjo-Kazooie as well, back when Banjo & Kazooie were Nintendo icons. They aren't Nintendo's anymore, so the situation is more complicated--but the nostalgia is still there, and this game seems to be particularly going for nostalgia more than relevancy. You might as well say K Rool is a dead character from a series that has moved passed him and never going to be in Smash.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Geno and Banjo might be iconic to Smash fans who constantly hear about them online in places like Smashboards, but do you honestly think many people outside of the Nintendo nerds who were alive during the SNES/N64 era genuinely know who these characters are?

There's a difference between nostalgia and iconicness. Don't confuse the two.

That last line made more sense than my entire post. Ignore my post that tried to make sense of things lol.

 

[StormC]

Bravely Default is more recognisable than Banjo or Geno if you aren't 30 years old.

Zoomer detected.

 

[dezeray112]

My thought process with the "leak" basically went like this:

(Images first appear): "It...could be real. Ken looks fine, that's Agnès, not Ayumi. Majora's Mask looking the same could just be by chance. The eye thing is weird, but I'll remain on the fence."

(Full renders appear, Agnès' name is spelled wrong, Rhythm Heaven's logo is inconsistent, and lots of visual oddities become apparent): "Well, never mind."

I'll give my thoughts as well:

At first I didn't really have much of a clue whether the female character was supposed to be either Ayumi or Agnes. In addition, I also felt there was something a bit wrong with Isaac's and Ken's renders (as Ken's render had some similar aspect to Ryu's render in which I suspect that there could be some Photoshop editing involved.)

Later when the full leak came out and as soon as I saw Agnes's incorrect accent, I felt that possibly debunks the leak straight away.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

It should be noted that when Square didn't release Bravely Default overseas, Nintendo stepped in to publish it there a year later.

Not saying it's likely but the series does have some connection with Nintendo, even if a little bit.

 

[Misery Brick]

ARE they making Bravely Third right now? As far as I know, the team moved on to make Octopath, but I could have my facts crossed.

Regardless, she's not really a Smash-tier third party in the least.



That's a *very* bold claim. A character like Banjo would be recognizable to gamers outside the Smash sphere who make up the current Nintendo target demographic. Agnes would abolutely not.

This is coming from someone who owned a 64 and tried to get games for it as often as I could, despite not being around during that era.
I didn't find out who Banjo was until 2014, and it was honestly only because of Smash speculation and a few nods from Microsoft.
I don't think they are recognizable to anyone who didn't grow up with those games. Then again, that could just be my personal experience and not reflective of anyone else.
Agnes on the other hand, despite me not touching Bravely Default or the rest of the series, I recognized instantly when I saw the leak and different promotional material despite me not knowing anything about the series.
So it's a pretty bold claim to make that most Nintendo fans would recognize them when they haven't been used for a while as their last outing was on the N64, as opposed to Agnes who's apart of a critically acclaimed and loved series who's been on a current platform.
Now if you were to mention older fans, I'll give you that, but I think a majority of modern Nintendo fans now who aren't in Smash speculation would recognize Agnes before Banjo.

 

[Fenriraga]

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

The fact that they're still as recognizable and requested as they are despite those points should be celebrated, not chastised.

And for Geno, Sakurai said himself that he's done very well in the ballot. That being a fact despite his "obscurity" should really say something. You're underestimating the power time has over bringing these characters into the eyes of more people.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I don't know what world you guys live in that two games from 20 years ago are iconic and a huge part of gaming history. It's incredibly easy for someone to just have never heard of Banjo when it was an actual thing.
Just because YOU personally experienced it, doesn't mean EVERYONE experienced it.
Basically, what I'm trying to say
View attachment 160694

What world do you live in that he ISNT? Seriously, where are you living, where are you seeing Bravley Default as wide spread and historically celebrated as Banjo I'd like to know, I'd also be highly suspicious that that world is specifically the jrpg scene.

Again it's more RELEVANT in comparison to banjo but certainly not more recognizable.

People couldn't even tell that was Agnes, and when it was revealed, more had to ASK who the hell Agnes was

 

[SvartWolf]

While stuff like Castlevania or Silent hill could be indeed called dead or "dormant" series, i hate this misconception that a series that is not doing like... yearly releases is dead. Undertales is a great game, i really liked it, but i dont know if i want Undertale 2, 3, 4 and zero, followed by Undertale reboot : /

 

[MSmariosonic]

Now that I think about it.

You could organize the 3rd parties into groups... kinda

Meant something for gaming in general -
Iconic to the NES -
Meant a lot to their respective genres -
Affiliated to modern Nintendo -

Oh and there's too


Eh you could also group and as PS1 icons

 

[Opossum]

Honestly though you can make a case for Banjo being decently well known. Back when I was a senior in high school (2014, for reference), I was on the scholastic quiz bowl team. Banjo-Kazooie was a subject of a quiz bowl question. I remember this because I was the one who got the question right for the team, only for us to lose in the final round because no one on the team read The Scarlet Letter and dammit, Dan, you were supposed to be our literature guy.


But yeah. Anecdotal as hell, but he's important to at least some degree.

 

[TheYungLink]

Also just as a general comment, please don’t use autism as an excuse for how you behave on the internet. I’m so sick of reading that crap.

-signed, someone who is also autistic

Thank you. I'm autistic as well and I hate when people do this. It just makes the rest of us look bad.

To move on though, I've decided to leak a brand new character in the upcoming September Direct: I hope all of you will enjoy playing as Elmo from Sesamenoblade Chronicles.

 

[Deleted member]

I literally only found out who Banjo was because of JonTron. Banjo was never a thing here and even diehard Nintendo fans I know that grew up with the N64 don't mention him. It was always about Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time.
It's fine to like and want Banjo in and I won't deny he's popular but don't act like he's that big of a deal to the gaming history as a whole, he's no mascot, he didn't revolutionize an entire genre and you won't see a casual fan recognize him as more than Yogi Bear and Bird.

"Recognizable" isn't the word you're going for. Bravely Default's character art isn't easily distinguishable from many other JRPGs with similar art styles unles you're specifically a fan of the series.

Banjo & Kazooie are a ****ing cartoon bear with a bird in his backpack.

All someone needs to recognize Agnes is to have opened the 3DS EShop anytime when it was being featured. A free downloadable demo also helps anyone to familiarize with BD.

That's the thing though, I didn't experience it, and yet I still knew him, even before getting involved with any smash speculation, as did many many others, because banjo was such a big part of the n64 era. It actually seems YOU'RE the one saying he's not iconic just because YOU don't think he is.

Is this going to be a "no u" argument?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People don't need to have purchased or played a banjo game to know who banjo is, he's kind of a figure within videogame culture. The idea that the young series Bravley Default is more iconic than Banjo is, again, ridiculous

I think what you really want to say is that they are currently more RELEVANT

Not 'iconic' per se but more well-known, there's a difference between the two. My friends who don't play JRPGS other than Final Fantasy, Persona and maybe Xenoblade depending on which one you asked? "Yeah, I know Bravely Default". Colleagues who brought a 3DS to work? They all had Bravely Default. Banjo is a "Literally who" character for those who didn't grow up in the N64 era. He ain't like say, Cloud, who kept getting pushed by his company. The fact it isn't common knowledge that Banjo has 5 games under his belt and not 3 should really say something

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Okay so what's this leak that's still being discussed? And who the heck is Agnes?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I mean, Geno didn't even make it to Europe until the Wii and I'm certain Banjo Kazooie sold less than Bravely Default

That's not true. Bravely Default, the best selling game in the series, sold around 1 million. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie sold better in comparison.

 

[Schnee117]

To move on though, I've decided to leak a brand new character in the upcoming September Direct: I hope all of you will enjoy playing as Elmo from Sesamenoblade Chronicles.

Always wanted a Yakuza style Xenoblade spin-off based on Sesame and his potential ties to the criminal underground of Colony 9

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't think anyone was trying to say Agnes was iconic lol how did that get misconstrued.

Just that more younger people might of heard the game bravely default because it's still currently out opposed to Banjo Kazooie which hasn't been seen in a while.

Also that post talking about "the good old days of rare" really made me think of baby boomers and now I realize why I have an innate negative reaction to genwunners and nostalgic videogame nerds lol.

 

[Fenriraga]

I literally only found out who Banjo was because of JonTron. Banjo was never a thing here and even diehard Nintendo fans I know that grew up with the N64 don't mention him. It was always about Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time.
It's fine to like and want Banjo in and I won't deny he's popular but don't act like he's that big of a deal to the gaming history as a whole, he's no mascot, he didn't revolutionize an entire genre and you won't see a casual fan recognize him as more than Yogi Bear and Bird.

All someone needs to recognize Agnes is to have opened the 3DS EShop anytime when it was being featured. A free downloadable demo also helps anyone to familiarize with BD.

Is this going to be a "no u" argument?

"I never heard of them in my small circle of people, therefore that means their popularity is overrated."

Solid logic.

Dude, I'm an RPG NUT yet haven't played Bravely Default yet. I couldn't tell you who the hell Agnes is without a reminder. People like you and I are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Will]

Okay so what's this leak that's still being discussed? And who the heck is Agnes?

It's not hard to go back a page or two. Or Google.

 

[StormC]

he didn't revolutionize an entire genre

I mean... kinda? He's what people think of when they think "3D collectathon."

 

[Zathura]

Is this going to be a "no u" argument?

Good response, really accentuated your point...

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to point out how everyone's personal experiences are different and just because you think banjo isn't iconic or just because I think he is doesn't mean either is true. Everyone is throwing around their opinion as fact on this matter, when in reality both banjo and agnes are iconic in certain regards and both important in ways, even if someone hasn't experienced one or the other

 

[Will]

That's not true. Bravely Default, the best selling game in the series, sold around 1 million. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie sold better in comparison.

hey remember when Xenoblade was so obscure it'd never make it into smash

I recall it capping out at 231k.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Why are we comparing Banjo-Kazooie, who debuted in the 90s, to Agnes who debuted in 2012 when Bravely Default was originally released?

They are in no way comparable to each other. That's like comparing Incineroar to Geno.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's not true. Bravely Default, the best selling game in the series, sold around 1 million. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie sold better in comparison.

Huh. My mistake. Still, I see more people know of it these days than Banjo, and the people I'm referring to are about my age, so a tad too young to be playing a N64

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The biggest problem with this "iconic"argument is that people use anecdotal evidence to prove or disprove how well known a character is, which is completely unreliable as heck.

hey remember when Xenoblade was so obscure it'd never make it into smash

Congratulations on countering an argument I never even made, since my post clearly had nothing to do with Smash viability as much as countering a misconception that Bravely Default sold better than any Banjo game. But hey, thanks for the snarky comment.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Not 'iconic' per se but more well-known, there's a difference between the two. My friends who don't play JRPGS other than Final Fantasy, Persona and maybe Xenoblade depending on which one you asked? "Yeah, I know Bravely Default". Colleagues who brought a 3DS to work? They all had Bravely Default. Banjo is a "Literally who" character for those who didn't grow up in the N64 era. He ain't like say, Cloud, who kept getting pushed by his company. The fact it isn't common knowledge that Banjo has 5 games under his belt and not 3 should really say something

The character topping ballots, getting leaked back and forth, being in all kinds of speculation videos, that my freaking grade school cousins and high school friends recognize is a literally who character in comparison to a franchise whose character went completely unrecognized upon a (fake) leak?

 

[Zippo]

Well, that was a fun 18 or so hours...

Anyway, I hope the person Mimique reweeted last week is right about a general Direct happening next week. That would be excellent, not just for Smash, but for other games too.

 

[Banjodorf]

This is coming from someone who owned a 64 and tried to get games for it as often as I could, despite not being around during that era.
I didn't find out who Banjo was until 2014, and it was honestly only because of Smash speculation and a few nods from Microsoft.
I don't think they are recognizable to anyone who didn't grow up with those games. Then again, that could just be my personal experience and not reflective of anyone else.
Agnes on the other hand, despite me not touching Bravely Default or the rest of the series, I recognized instantly when I saw the leak and different promotional material despite me not knowing anything about the series.
So it's a pretty bold claim to make that most Nintendo fans would recognize them when they haven't been used for a while as their last outing was on the N64, as opposed to Agnes who's apart of a critically acclaimed and loved series who's been on a current platform.
Now if you were to mention older fans, I'll give you that, but I think a majority of modern Nintendo fans now who aren't in Smash speculation would recognize Agnes before Banjo.

Anecdotal evidence, but I think I'll retire from this for now. Any ballot metric should show who's more recognizable in the position that matters. Had Agnes had *any* significant amount of votes, I'd agree. Meanwhile, people jumped through hoops when Phil Spencer said he'd be fine with Banjo in Smash. But continue as you will.

 

[andres22]

Bravely Default is more recognisable than Banjo or Geno if you aren't 30 years old.

t. zoomer

 

[Will]

Congratulations on countering an argument I never even made, since my post clearly had nothing to do with Smash viability as much as countering a misconception that Bravely Default sold better than any Banjo game. But hey, thanks for the snarky comment.

It's my specialty.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So I assumed the images were mirrored for some reason but the person actually just made Agnes's hair backwards

 

[L9999]

Hey, look at the bright side. We went hours without pointless (and boring) Pokemon debates.

 

[dezeray112]

Okay so what's this leak that's still being discussed?

To give you a brief summary, there was a leak which showed character renders of what seemed to be Skull Kid, Isabelle, Isaac, Agnes, Ken Masters and Shadow. But once the full render is shown, there are a number of glaring errors such as the accent on Agnes's name etc.

And who the heck is Agnes?

Agnes is one of the characters within Bravely Default.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The character topping ballots, getting leaked back and forth, being in all kinds of speculation videos, that my freaking grade school cousins and high school friends recognize is a literally who character in comparison to a franchise whose character went completely unrecognized upon a (fake) leak?

Outside of the hardcore Smash fanbase, who are in the minority, I'd say yes.

I mean... kinda? He's what people think of when they think "3D collectathon."

I mean let's be honest the only thing Banjo really pushed there was the humour brand, cause Mario 64 is a collectathon