Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

You guys have too much of a tunnel vision focused inside the Smash fanbase. Go out for a bit, step out of an Echo Chamber that tells what you wanna hear. A 20-year old game is not going to be as recognizable as a 4-year one that gets marketed by Nintendo itself on their own store.

"I never heard of them in my small circle of people, therefore that means their popularity is overrated."

Solid logic.

But then why is the opposite true by your logic?

 

[Fenriraga]

Remind me, wasn't there a Smash 4 DLC leak with Agnes that gained a slight bit of traction back in the day?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I mean... kinda? He's what people think of when they think "3D collectathon."

Pretty sure they think of mario 64 first

 

[ZephyrZ]

People are acting like Bravely Default was a flop and think Banjo is universally loved by kids of all ages? Man, Smash speculation is a weird, weird bubble.

I probably wouldn't have any idea who Banjo was if I wasn't so caught up in Smash / Nintendo online culture. I only know of him second hand from the people who grew up with him. I mean I know that he was probably a huge deal back in the day but without any hit games being put out with him there's no reason for us "kids" to know who he is outside of secondhand knowledge. Granted you could say the same thing with K.Rool, so I don't think that's what's important in this round of speculation, but still.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I mean... kinda? He's what people think of when they think "3D collectathon."

Exactly. Nobody's saying Banjo & Kazooie are Mega Man or Pac-Man levels of iconic. But they were Nintendo icons back in the day, one of the pinnacles of 3D platform games, and laid the groundwork for Donkey Kong 64, had recognizable characters, and a legendary soundtrack by Grant Kirkhope. And Banjo & Kazooie could be considered a mascot for Rare, a beloved development studio of its era, as they use his image still, even when they've done nothing with the characters (which speaks more to platform they're forced to be on, rather than the quality of the games themselves).

This seems like just a generational issue. When I hear Agnes, or the 50 other characters being brought up, I go who? Which speaks to how awesome Smash is, to be able to bring together so many different generations in celebrating these games.

 

[Fenriraga]

You guys have too much of a tunnel vision focused inside the Smash fanbase. Go out for a bit, step out of an Echo Chamber that tells what you wanna hear. A 20-year old game is not going to be as recognizable as a 4-year one that gets marketed by Nintendo itself on their own store.

But then why is the opposite true by your logic?

Edited my post a bit too late to make that point, here.

Dude, I'm an RPG NUT yet haven't played Bravely Default yet. I couldn't tell you who the hell Agnes is without a reminder. People like you and I are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Banjo vs Agnes/Bravely Default is a really odd battle to bring up, it's honestly not even a competition. I didn't grow up knowing Banjo despite being from the N64/PS1 era, he wasn't like Crash who was everywhere, and I've still never played the games, but you'll learn to know him pretty much the minute you dip your toes in Nintendo fan culture, his games are incredibly beloved and it's telling that after all these years people are still wishing for proper sequels to his classic games. He's not one of gaming's most recognizable figures, but he's still an icon in his own right, I can confidently say that without any bias whatsoever.

I think modern Nintendo fans have a tendency to overestimate the recognizability of newer series, in the grand scale of things Bravely Default is nothing really, neither to RPGs or even the 3DS. It was a game that sold well, but nothing that will be recognized in the future by anyone except for Nintendo's very core fanbase at the time of its release. That's not to say I'd be against a character from it getting into Smash, like I said previously I'm not a snob in that way, but it doesn't compare to Banjo Kazooie.

 

[Deleted member]

Edited my post a bit too late to make that point, here.

I haven't played BD either but I did log in to the EShop like most 3DS owners do.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also I just realized how ****ing funny it is how Cloud ****ing never got requests from the core base back in 4 and was a meme for Brawl yet back in November 2015 we all got shook

 

[Fenriraga]

I haven't played BD either but I did log in to the EShop like most 3DS owners do.

And what exactly does that really even mean?

If you honestly expect someone to remember a video game just because they saw a single still image of it on the Eshop, I think you're giving people a bit too much credit.

By that token, Nintendo's official Twitter celebrated Mario RPG's Birthday a few weeks back and mentioned Geno and Mallow. So by that logic, EVERYONE who follows Nintendo should now know what Mario RPG is.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

You guys have too much of a tunnel vision focused inside the Smash fanbase. Go out for a bit, step out of an Echo Chamber that tells what you wanna hear. A 20-year old game is not going to be as recognizable as a 4-year one that gets marketed by Nintendo itself on their own store.

But then why is the opposite true by your logic?

Because he's not judging it on a small group of people.

If you want to judge recognition for the chars beyond personnel experience, I think the recent "leaks" we just under went and the general reaction to them are rather telling

 

[Crooked Crow]

It's my specialty.

Oh, oh, can I get a snarky comment too?

 

[Will]

Dude, I'm an RPG NUT yet haven't played Bravely Default yet. I couldn't tell you who the hell Agnes is without a reminder. People like you and I are the exceptions, not the rule.

But that applies to any RPG? Unless you see them frequently or actually played the game, how would you know their name on the dime? I barely remember any but like five of the named Final Fantasy characters. I couldn't tell you who was in FF8 and up except Lightning. Because I didn't play the game.

Oh, oh, can I get a snarky comment too?

Everyone can be snarky if they want to be, you just gotta own it.

 

[SmashingXan2]

Relevancy doesnt even matter tho. No one outside the Smash or DK fan base knows who K.Rool was, especially since hes been gone for ten years, and that's counting obscure spinoff. Last main game was N64. Relevancy doesnt matter, what matters is who is wanted by Smash fans

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Don't act like Agnes a modern icon of sorts, but do not act like her games are flops. 1.7 million in sales worldwide for a JRPG is pretty damn nice.

 

[Fenriraga]

But that applies to any RPG? Unless you see them frequently or actually played the game, how would you know their name on the dime? I barely remember any but like five of the named Final Fantasy characters. I couldn't tell you who was in FF8 and up except Lightning. Because I didn't play the game.


Everyone can be snarky if they want to be, you just gotta own it.

That wasn't me trying to make a point about Agnus, that was me trying to say that "Just because you particularly didn't hear as much about X character doesn't mean they aren't recognizable and popular."

 

[Schnee117]

Banjo's popularity and iconicness gets far too exaggerated. But damn he's getting downplayed hard as well.

 

[dezeray112]

Going to have my say on this Banjo situation - I've been playing video games since I owned the Nintendo 64 as my first home console and I had played Banjo-Kazooie 64 in which I considered them as icons of Nintendo back then until Microsoft purchased the rights to Rare.

On the Agnes situation - To be honest, I have yet to play any of the Bravely Default series so I can't really have my say as of yet, but I am tempted to pick up one of the games at some point (thanks to the debunked leak.)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I lol'd at the "Oh **** Wario is in" comment in that thread

 

[RouffWestie]

It's very very noticeable that many of the people claiming Banjo is too dead and not recognizable or iconic enough to be in Smash were also saying the exact same thing about K. Rool before he was revealed.
Just something interesting I thought would be worth pointing out.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Outside of the hardcore Smash fanbase, who are in the minority, I'd say yes.

I mean let's be honest the only thing Banjo really pushed there was the humour brand, cause Mario 64 is a collectathon

I hadn't really heard of Ashly prior to smash speculation. Or Bandana Dee, or Geno, or Isaac, or a lot of the smash front runners

But I certainly had heard of banjo, and I don't need to be on a smash board to bring him up and have people know who the hell I'm talking about.

 

[Misery Brick]

Nah, I Disagree on Tails being way more Iconic (except maybe within the sonic fanbase itself). Shadow is more iconic to the general gaming populace than you Tails fans give him credit for. And Based on stuff like Shadow mods download numbers he's also really popular among smash Fans.
There's really not much reason to be surprised at Shadow getting in before Tails.

I think you're actually underselling Tails by quite a lot here.
Tails is the Luigi to Sonic's Mario. He's one of the most iconic characters in gaming and platformers period. Just because Shadow has a larger and more vocal fanbase, doesn't mean that he has more of a status in gaming.
Hell, look at Sonic Mania. A lot of people were celebrating it as it explored classic Sonic and gave another game like the originals, and was devoid of modern Sonic.
Like for instance, it's comparing Juri to Ken or maybe Chun-Li. ( I think Chun has more official costumes than her, so she may not be an apt comparison.) But you see a lot more love for Juri in the general SF community than you do for one of the most iconic characters of the series, Ken. That doesn't mean that Juri is considered way more iconic than Ken, it's just they have a larger fanbase.
But if you ask anyone who's familiar with video games, or at least knows a bit about them, who's more important or recognizable, they'll instantly say Ken.
Same goes for Shadow and Tails.

 

[Opossum]

The Bravely-Kazooie debate is getting taxing. Let's go back to talking about Merric instead.

Look at the happy wind wizard man.

 

[Will]

What makes me mad about Agnes being in the leak is that she isn't even the main character of either games.

It's this guy.

 

[Deleted member]

People still thinking I'm talking about Smash when my whole point is to stop having tunnel vision on this community for ****'s sake

And what exactly does that really even mean?

If you honestly expect someone to remember a video game just because they saw a single still image of it on the Eshop, I think you're giving people a bit too much credit.

By that token, Nintendo's official Twitter celebrated Mario RPG's Birthday a few weeks back and mentioned Geno and Mallow. So by that logic, EVERYONE who follows Nintendo should now know what Mario RPG is.

Still more recognition than a character that hasn't even touched a Nintendo console or marketing platform will get from casual fans.
"Who the **** is this bear?" vs "oh yeah I think I saw her game once"

Because he's not judging it on a small group of people.

If you want to judge recognition for the chars beyond personnel experience, I think the recent "leaks" we just under went and the general reaction to them are rather telling

The Smash community is a small group, especially when most didn't hear about Banjo until they joined online communities.

 

[Primal Cookie]

I just turned 14, and I grew up with the Wii. While it is true that I had never heard of Banjo-Kazooie or Geno before Smash speculation, I have also never heard of Agnes until now. So there’s that.

 

[Koopaul]

We're having the "who is more iconic" discussion?

Let me fill you guys in on something. All the most iconic video game characters that have a chance to be in Smash are already in Smash. At this point it's about fan favorites and semi-iconic characters.

Banjo is a fan favorite and semi-iconic. And that's good enough.

 

[Roberk]

I'm under 20, and while I never played Bravely Default I definitely heard about it during the 3DS era. It sounded like a somewhat big game for traditional JRPGs.

All B&K is to me is a third party on the N64 that died out decades ago.

If I had to choose, I'd choose Agnes because I could pick up my 3DS sitting right next to me right now and download her games. I'm just more familiar with the 3DS and I'd rather have a 3DS character tbh. I'd much rather play a modern JRPG than a 20-year-old 3D-platformer-collectathon. Banjo is something that I'll likely never appreciate because I didn't grow up in the late 90's to have nostalgia for his games. Nostalgia is the driving factor for Banjo and as time goes on, there's going to be an increasing amount of people that just don't have it for B&K.

 

[Zathura]

The Bravely-Kazooie debate is getting taxing. Let's go back to talking about Merric instead.

View attachment 160696
Look at the happy wind wizard man.

I'd honestly love another magic user, robin's my favourite FE rep. I haven't played the fe game he's from, would he work as a robin echo? or is he different in some way

 

[Fenriraga]

People still thinking I'm talking about Smash when my whole point is to stop having tunnel vision on this community for ****'s sake

Still more recognition than a character that hasn't even touched a Nintendo console or marketing platform will get from casual fans.
"Who the **** is this bear?" vs "oh yeah I think I saw her game once"

The Smash community is a small group, especially when most didn't hear about Banjo until they joined online communities.

Hasn't even touched a- Excuse me, what?

Are we talking about the same bear here?

Also, I'm seeing a LOT of "This community didn't know about X" and not a lot of backing it up with evidence here.

 

[StormC]

Banjo-Kazooie is literally in the name.

Bravely Default is not called Agnes-Tiz.

 

[PsySmasher]

Honestly, in terms of a Square Enix rep, Agnes isn't that odd of a choice.
Yes Geno is much more requested, but Bravely Default is the only relevant Square series that has major ties with Nintendo (they even published the first game outside Japan).

Comparing Banjo's chances to Agnes' however is very unjustified. They are from two separate companies, generations, and fanbases. One getting in shouldn't deconfirm the other.

The Bravely-Kazooie debate is getting taxing. Let's go back to talking about Merric instead.

View attachment 160696
Look at the happy wind wizard man.

Funny. I actually just pulled Merric today for the first time!

 

[Will]

Banjo-Kazooie is literally in the name.

Bravely Default is not called Agnes-Tiz.

Yeah because Brave and Default are the game gimmicks and Bravely Second has been one since the first game.
Banjo and Kazooie are arguably their own gimmicks given what they can do for platforming standards.

(they even published the first game outside Japan)

Bravely Second has been released globally for a long time now.

 

[dezeray112]

I'd honestly love another magic user, robin's my favourite FE rep. I haven't played the fe game he's from, would he work as a robin echo? or is he different in some way

Personally, if anyone is going to work as Robin's echo, I would opt with Celica.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I hadn't really heard of Ashly prior to smash speculation. Or Bandana Dee, or Geno, or Isaac, or a lot of the smash front runners

But I certainly had heard of banjo, and I don't need to be on a smash board to bring him up and have people know who the hell I'm talking about.

Gee, let's look at those comparisons one by one
Ashley: Japanese fan favourite character
Bandana Dee: Modern Kirby character meaning you need to be a fan of Kirby Returns to Dreamland at the very least
Geno: A 'literally who' character for Europe who became popular because of a youtube video and is only known today because of his Smash fanbase. Appearances are one game as a side character, a cameo and Smash 4 Mii costume to Smash fans
Isaac: Dead franchise, wasn't even playable in the third and final game
If your point is "Well you didn't know Banjo? Well I didn't know these!" then I don't really get these comparisons as they really don't work, Bandana Dee's arguably the most well-known one but if Banjo is supposed to be such a legend, why compare to a modern character?

 

[Zippo]

What makes me mad about Agnes being in the leak is that she isn't even the main character of either games.

It's this guy.

I'm so confused.

Some people have told me Edea is the main character of the game, others have told me it's Agnes.

Which one is it?

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm not sure how much traction that Sora/"Toenail" leak got, but here's a brief recap -

Random dude posts thing on GameFAQs. Mods delete it for trolling or disruptive posting.

Most people don't believe it, but Verge's response didn't categorically debunk it, but then someone comes out of the woodwork and points out that a user named Chomper4 was particularly adamant about pushing it, claiming "maybe it's real" and constantly justifying very odd decisions, saying things like "Tails works better as an echo" when people point out how weird it is that it's Tails and now Shadow, and generally aggressively questioning why people were dismissive of it.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76942073

There exists an account for LoL called "toenail chomper4", and looking up chomper4's name shows he's a fan of Sora, providing some backing to the idea that "toenail" was likely an alternate account.

While nothing there is definitive and it could be a big coincidence, Chomper4 pops up again today to argue it hasn't been debunked, which really should eliminate all doubt since he's the only one pushing it, days after it's irrelevant

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76951819

Just thought I'd throw this in since it amused me and is an example of a fake text leaker getting exposed lol. Not sure how much attention it got on SB, but it got a lot of traction discussing it on GameFAQs.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

People still thinking I'm talking about Smash when my whole point is to stop having tunnel vision on this community for ****'s sake

I could argue that the tunnel vision is more that you can't see outside your specific generation. If you ask people around you if they've played Banjo Kazooie they'll likely say no, but some might say they've played Bravely Default. But if you ask the general gaming community, say on Resetera or Reddit, places that include people of all kinds of different ages and who play various different consoles, they'll just laugh at you for even making the comparison.

Banjo isn't just popular in the Smash community, there's far far far more demand for him to get a proper sequel than to get him in Smash, half of the reason fans even want him in Smash is that it'd likely force a revival from Microsoft.

 

[Zathura]

Still more recognition than a character that hasn't even touched a Nintendo console or marketing platform will get from casual fans.
"Who the **** is this bear?" vs "oh yeah I think I saw her game once"

The Smash community is a small group, especially when most didn't hear about Banjo until they joined online communities.

Look, some people find banjo more iconic and know him, and some people find agnes more iconic and know her, that's all there is to it, you can't possibly know which group is bigger, there's literally no point to this discussion anymore, let's just leave it at both characters being iconic in their own way

 

[Will]

I'm so confused.

Some people have told me Edea is the main character of the game, others have told me it's Agnes.

Which one is it?

It's Tiz. All characters in each game are equally important, but the focus of the L O R E is solely started and ended on Tiz in each game.