Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Opossum]

Yes. There's absolutely no way a literal who gets in as a third party choice. Even literal whos outside of speculation like Geno, have *enormous* support inside. Agnes is neither. She's also a forgettable character from a dormant series. There's no comparison to other 3rd party choices, even Bayonetta.

I think you're seriously underestimating Bravely Default here.

 

[Chrono.]

ARE they making Bravely Third right now? As far as I know, the team moved on to make Octopath, but I could have my facts crossed.

Regardless, she's not really a Smash-tier third party in the least.

They teased a third Bravely pretty recently.

 

[MainJPW]

Just like how this was "proven to be fake"

This is you right now.

Smash fans trying to defend a bad image "leak" (2018) pic.twitter.com/jdSaUjY7O1

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) August 30, 2018

 

[CosmicQuark]

Eh, I wouldn't say shoo-in.

I actually feel it would more or less diminish his chances. Unless it was another Sonic in Brawl situation where Sakurai asked, they said no, then said yes anyway, delaying his development for DLC. I don't see why would he miss the base roster if he did highly on the ballot (which is pretty likely.)

This is my concern whenever people mention B&K as DLC. Everything seemed to align so perfectly in 2015 for when they would have been decided on, and would be a great way to establish "making the impossible possible". And if they miss the base roster--I'm a bit more skeptical than most in terms of their chances for DLC. There are a lot of new characters fighting for DLC, and the only saving grace would be if the DLC lifespan is much more expansive than the last time--which is likely, but not a given.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Bravely Default is more recognisable than Banjo or Geno if you aren't 30 years old.

This is a load of horse ****, specifically with Banjo

 

[Ura]

Ura is the guy who made this up, the dude on the left looks like Andy

The ****?

That's the Wave Race dude not Andy. And if that was Andy it would be creepy AF.

 

[T-Hell]

Just like how this was "proven to be fake"

SourceGaming and Artsy whatever he is called already confirmed this to be fake. I'm talking about a popular and dedicated Smash channel and the dude who made the Rayman fake who is an expert in photoshopping. Not to mention the many factors that makes those images look unprofessional.

 

[Will]

Its a personal bet, but I get it, you're being snarky.

No I literally didn't know if you meant you were so confident you were able to risk the biscuit or you were just finding a good reason to nuke yourself.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is a load of horse ****, specifically with Banjo

I mean, Geno didn't even make it to Europe until the Wii and I'm certain Banjo Kazooie sold less than Bravely Default

 

[Captain Fun]

Just like how this was "proven to be fake"

That is not even close to being a good comparison.

 

[Zathura]

Bravely Default is more recognisable than Banjo or Geno if you aren't 30 years old.

That absolutely is not true, at least about banjo

 

[SvartWolf]

what are you guys smoking, that Agnes render is totally real! I mean look all the care that was poured into her to make her face as true as the original!

Spoiler: Agnes

Speaking seriously now.. if Sakurai would do an agnes 3d model, i don't think that he would go for generic anime eyes, but rather something more close to the original concept and or model... some slightly more abstract and subtle eyes... i mean.. they didn't gave ness anime eyes just for teh sake of it.

Still, a shame, i have to admit that agnes would been a nice surprise character :/

 

[Banjodorf]

I think you're seriously underestimating Bravely Default here.

C'mon Opo. It doesn't take a modicum of thought to realize BD has no presence in Smash, and compared to the rest of the third parties is nothing but "another series". If Agnes wasn't in this leak, it wouldn't be being discussed whatsoever.

If Bravely Default had *any* visible modicum of fan support in the past few years for Smash, I would agree, but the series is completely dormant in speculation. Utterly. The characters have no presence, and people can't even decide who the main character really is.

I loved Bravely Default, and thought Bravely Second improved on it a lot, but it's not a Smash-tier series. Bayonetta wouldn't be either, barring its special circumstances, but at least Bayonetta had tangible support.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Like how Wolf was an obvious shoo in for Smash 4 DLC?

Oof. Those were rough times.

 

[ProjectDream]

No I literally didn't know if you meant you were so confident you were able to risk the biscuit or you were just finding a good reason to nuke yourself.

I'll risk it, I do like it here. It's comfy. Putting up with 10+ years of disappointment with your most wanted character pick leaves alot of fallback safety if I'm wrong. But I'm confident enough to put a stake on it.

 

[Deleted member]

This is a load of horse ****, specifically with Banjo

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

what are you guys smoking, that Agnes render is totally real! I mean look all the care that was poured into her to make her face as true as the original!

Spoiler: Agnes

I still cant believe square officially released something like that

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I mean, Geno didn't even make it to Europe until the Wii and I'm certain Banjo Kazooie sold less than Bravely Default

I might give you this with japanese audiences but Agnes/Bravely Default is NOT more recognizable than Banjo in the west. That's just ridiculous

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The ****?

That's the Wave Race dude not Andy. And if that was Andy it would be creepy AF.

You may be thinking I was simply dunking on Andy, But that was legit the only character I could think of when I saw that as all I know about Wave Race is the sarcastic announcer

 

[Opossum]

My thought process with the "leak" basically went like this:

(Images first appear): "It...could be real. Ken looks fine, that's Agnès, not Ayumi. Majora's Mask looking the same could just be by chance. The eye thing is weird, but I'll remain on the fence."

(Full renders appear, Agnès' name is spelled wrong, Rhythm Heaven's logo is inconsistent, and lots of visual oddities become apparent): "Well, never mind."

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

I didn't grow up with Banjo, I've never played a banjo game, I've never had interest in playing a banjo game and he's certainly a lot more iconic than you're giving him credit for. This just comes off as bias

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

That's a *very* bold claim. A character like Banjo would be recognizable to gamers outside the Smash sphere who make up the current Nintendo target demographic. Agnes would abolutely not.

This is a load of horse ****, specifically with Banjo

That absolutely is not true, at least about banjo

Change the age to anyone under 25 and I could see it. I honestly only know Banjo from smash and I owned a N64, it just wasn't on my radar. Where as Bravely Default was a well received game on one of Nintendo's most popular consoles.

I wouldn't say Agnes is more recognizeable, and that's not what the user was saying. But polling a 15-20 year old Nintendo fan and asking them if they knew about Braveley Default? They might have played it. Chances are they haven't played Banjo.

Eh maybe it's more a recenecy thing. I feel like Nintendo forums/smash forums bring up Banjo enough that if they visit those they probably at least know of him, but probably haven't played the game.

EDIT: the point about well received title on a well selling console is also about being on the recent mind of someone who wasn't alive/way too young during N64 times. Sorry, I realize Banjo was a well received game too not saying it wasn't.

EDIT 2: As for sales, according to VGChartz atleast Bravely Default sold no where near as well as Banjo. Would need to look up more sources. But once again it has to do with Banjo not having a game in decades (do people shun nuts and bolts? I imagine they do).

 

[Zathura]

Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.

Are you kidding? Banjo is a massive part of gaming history for countless people, he's known by tons of people who've never played the games. Tbh you're right about geno tho

 

[MasterOfKnees]

People are gonna have to loosen up a bit on what they consider 'worthy' 3rd parties, pre-Smash 4 we had people saying that freaking Pac-Man didn't deserve it, and we've gotten someone like Bayonetta since who, without being too respectless to her, is very far off what people's standards were back then. We've already got the most iconic characters in video game history in this game, logically we're only going to go further downhill in that regard with every inclusion.

As long as the character brings something unique to the game I'm personally cool with it, I've come to feel the same about 3rd parties as with any other character really, it's not quite as special a privilege as it was in the Brawl days, but that's only for the better imo. I mean it's not like people want Geno because he's a gaming icon, they just want him because he's really cool, and if he happens then that's amazing imo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I might give you this with japanese audiences but Agnes/Bravely Default is NOT more recognizable than Banjo in the west. That's just ridiculous

Considering the sales, I'd disagree heavily. Also, didn't Bravely Default help get traditional JRPGs back on the market? That's more influence than Banjo's franchise had

 

[staindgrey]

Bravely Default is more recognisable than Banjo or Geno if you aren't 30 years old.

"Recognizable" isn't the word you're going for. Bravely Default's character art isn't easily distinguishable from many other JRPGs with similar art styles unles you're specifically a fan of the series.

Banjo & Kazooie are a ****ing cartoon bear with a bird in his backpack.

 

[Chrono.]

Bravely has it's clout but I'd feel weird if we saw it in Smash before Dragon Quest or Shin Megami Tensei.

 

[Ura]

I don't know what misconceptions the Banjo and Geno fanbases live in but Banjo-Kazooie only had two games in the N64 before dying and coming back for one game not even diehard fans want to remember. Unless you grew up with Banjo, he's a non-entity.
As for Geno, Super Mario RPG is not even the most well-praised or remembered SNES RPG out there, he doesn't even have the boxart to be recognized at a glance.

I don't buy that. Banjo was a staple of the N64 era and he has the backing of many older fans that grew up around that era. And he also has the "K.Rool" factor of being really popular (especially in a Smash context mind you which is really important) which is the Golden Ticket for newcomers in this game. Even with his absence.

BD might have sold more than Banjo but it doesn't compare to the latter's popularity.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

what are you guys smoking, that Agnes render is totally real! I mean look all the care that was poured into her to make her face as true as the original!

Spoiler: Agnes

Speaking seriously now.. if Sakurai would do an agnes 3d model, i don't think that he would go for generic anime eyes, but rather something more close to the original concept and or model... some slightly more abstract and subtle eyes... i mean.. they didn't gave ness anime eyes just for teh sake of it.

Still, a shame, i have to admit that agnes would been a nice surprise character :/

This is how agnes looks in the cg trailers so this is what she'd probably look like

 

[Paperchampion23]

Bravely has it's clout but I'd feel weird if we saw it in Smash before Dragon Quest or Shin Megami Tensei.

Same, and even then I'm more inclined to think it's Geno considering Sakurai's history with the character

 

[Captain Shwampy]

This is the only Banjo i care for

Spoiler

 

[Arcadenik]

Agnes, Chorus Kids, Isaac, Ken (Echo of Ryu), Isabelle (probable Echo of Villager), Shadow (Echo of Sonic), Skull Kid, and an unknown 7th gen Pokémon (not Decidueye and not Lycanroc according to Vergeben).

I guess I could live with that. At least I got Simon.

 

[Opossum]

C'mon Opo. It doesn't take a modicum of thought to realize BD has no presence in Smash, and compared to the rest of the third parties is nothing but "another series". If Agnes wasn't in this leak, it wouldn't be being discussed whatsoever.

If Bravely Default had *any* visible modicum of fan support in the past few years for Smash, I would agree, but the series is completely dormant in speculation. Utterly. The characters have no presence, and people can't even decide who the main character really is.

I loved Bravely Default, and thought Bravely Second improved on it a lot, but it's not a Smash-tier series. Bayonetta wouldn't be either, barring its special circumstances, but at least Bayonetta had tangible support.

Honestly it seems like a Bayonetta type of situation. Not a massive third party juggernaut, but one with a huge Nintendo connection from a pre-existing partner. Both series were critical darlings and BD sold pretty well if I remember correctly.

Support existed during Smash 4. It was small, but I remember it being a thing.

 

[hazza5557]

I don’t play many games and I knew who Banjo Kazooie and Geno were but I’d never heard of Bravely Default or Agnes ever in my life. I can’t even remember exactly where I’d seen Banjo before but I just know who he is lol

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Banjo Kazooie is so iconic how could anyone not know about them?"
Me and all my friends after seeing people want Banjo in Smash for the first time: "Isn't that the guy they put on the Xbox version of Sonic all stars racing?" This isn't even me memeing

 

[Cosmic77]

Geno and Banjo might be iconic to Smash fans who constantly hear about them online in places like Smashboards, but do you honestly think many people outside of the Nintendo nerds who were alive during the SNES/N64 era genuinely know who these characters are?

There's a difference between nostalgia and iconicness. Don't confuse the two.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't grow up with Banjo, I've never played a banjo game, I've never had interest in playing a banjo game and he's certainly a lot more iconic than you're giving him credit for. This just comes off as bias

Are you kidding? Banjo is a massive part of gaming history for countless people, he's known by tons of people who've never played the games. Tbh you're right about geno tho

I don't know what world you guys live in that two games from 20 years ago are iconic and a huge part of gaming history. It's incredibly easy for someone to just have never heard of Banjo when it was an actual thing.
Just because YOU personally experienced it, doesn't mean EVERYONE experienced it.
Basically, what I'm trying to say

 

[Banjodorf]

Change the age to anyone under 25 and I could see it. I honestly only know Banjo from smash and I owned a N64, it just wasn't on my radar. Where as Bravely Default was a well received game on one of Nintendo's most popular consoles.

I wouldn't say Agnes is more recognizeable, and that's not what the user was saying. But polling a 15-20 year old Nintendo fan and asking them if they knew about Braveley Default? They might have played it. Chances are they haven't played Banjo.

Eh maybe it's more a recenecy thing. I feel like Nintendo forums/smash forums bring up Banjo enough that if they visit those they probably at least know of him, but probably haven't played the game.

EDIT: the point about well received title on a well selling console is also about being on the recent mind of someone who wasn't alive/way too young during N64 times. Sorry, I realize Banjo was a well received game too not saying it wasn't.

Except JRPGs are niche in general with exception. People are overselling them hard. Even younger gamers probably know who Banjo is before Agnes. Games like Banjo-Kazooie weren't just *popular* in 1998, they were huge.

BD is being way oversold here. It's not a good comparison.

And remember, Nintendo's biggest market *is* the 20-30 demographic.

Now I remember why I never came in here. Enjoy discussing more fake leaks.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Considering the sales, I'd disagree heavily. Also, didn't Bravely Default help get traditional JRPGs back on the market? That's more influence than Banjo's franchise had

People don't need to have purchased or played a banjo game to know who banjo is, he's kind of a figure within videogame culture. The idea that the young series Bravley Default is more iconic than Banjo is, again, ridiculous

I think what you really want to say is that they are currently more RELEVANT

 

[DevaAshera]

Full picture of the 'leak'.

Suffice to say, I think we can count this one out. Even the accent on Agnès name is wrong...

Lol those renders are horrible.

Wasn't there a 'leak' featuring Agnès last game that had that exact same misspelling?

Yes. There's absolutely no way a literal who gets in as a third party choice. Even literal whos outside of speculation like Geno, have *enormous* support inside. Agnes is neither. She's also a forgettable character from a dormant series. There's no comparison to other 3rd party choices, even Bayonetta.

A forgettable character from a dormant series? Literally what? Bravely Default and Bravely Second are both heavily celebrated RPGs for RPG fans and Agnès is the most well known character..as for dormant, Bravely Second released in 2015, not long ago, and the team only hasn't made a new title due to making Octopath Traveller, which could actually be a side-game to BD as well.

People don't need to have purchased or played a banjo game to know who banjo is, he's kind of a figure within videogame culture. The idea that the young series Bravley Default is more iconic than Banjo is, again, ridiculous

I think what you really want to say is that they are currently more RELEVANT

As much as I love Banjo, he's likely not that recognizable to most under 20 years old.