Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'd argue that's more Ringabel in Default, but she probably is in Second even though she isn't playable.

I was going to mention Ringabel as that as well but she kinda fits it too

Plus it fits with Geno that it's her destined quest

 

[Deleted member]

I’m sure leakers would love people to buy into their claims, but really all they’re looking for is attention, because every fake leak will be proven fake eventually. They’re just a special breed of troll.

And last I checked this leak has been the topic of discussion pretty non-stop since it showed up. So even if you don’t believe it, which you shouldn’t, you’re still playing into the leakers’ hands.

I mean, I don't mind, it's the most fun I've had on this entire speculation period

So a 1 hit wonder. 2 million sales is very good, but it's not like the biggest hit of the decade.
Banjo is well-known, but there are others who bury him deep in the ground in terms of iconicity, like Rayman, Crash, Doomguy, etc

Shovel Knight is an indie game, I think a lot of people forget that.
Shovel Knight with one game has sold more tham some games from major companies.
Shovel Knight has constantly appeared in crossovers(and now he's in the biggest of them, even if not playable) and the game keeps getting continued support and updates that are going to last at least until 2019.

 

[Fenriraga]

If he somehow did post a video, the ONLY way I would believe it if it was only the new, non-echo characters on a non-returning stage actually FIGHTING on it.

Hence why this will never happen.

 

[StormC]

That right there, the Greninja point, is what a lot of people seem to brush off, even though that is a very big thing. Pokemon X & Y was just as unfinished as Smash 4, but Sakurai was handed Sugimori's design drawings and design documents alone and just went from there. This is why characters like Spring-Man, Rex & Pyra, and others shouldn't be discounted, because this stuff has happened before with characters that'd be considered "too new".

All that really matters to be honest is how the status of all franchises involved in the game are and in-house development of newer releases of games are for said franchises for these more newer characters.

Pokemon is bigger than Jesus though. A new Pokemon character is a surefire hit.

What assurance did Sakurai have in 2015 that ARMS and Xenoblade 2 would be big hits? What if they were a Codename STEAM or Other M?

Pokemon gets a special exception because it's ****ing Pokemon, the IP makes so much money it's stupid. There's no comparison.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Alright, so what is the only factor that would prevent a third party getting in? The company with the IP in question being stone dead (which most likely leads to a splinter company or someone acquiring the licenses anyway)?

We know no manga characters are allowed so Goku's chance was always dead for this game (actual death, not the Dragon Ball universe's concept of death).

 

[SebasSancy]

I'd argue that's more Ringabel in Default, but she probably is in Second even though she isn't playable.

She's the face of the first game, maybe Tiz is the protagonist but she's the one that started all. And in Bravely Second, she may not be playable, but she has a very present role

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Geno is literally from a game that released over 2 decades ago, who's only other actual appearance is the original Superstar Saga, not even in the remake that released less than a YEAR ago.

People still think he has a chance of getting in. I'm not saying that's a wrong way of thinking, but one of the most requested characters is from a dead IP.

You do have a point, but I was saying it would be nigh-impossible if the company owning said IP was dead. When the company is alive, all bets are off for supporters.

Though it doesn't hurt when Sakurai shows more than a fleeting interest in the character in question, too.

We know no manga characters are allowed so Goku's chance was always dead for this game (actual death, not the Dragon Ball universe's concept of death).

Ah yeah, that's right. I expect that to be the only actual rule at this stage, tbh (which also applies to any other type of non-game-related character, including Shrek).

 

[Captain Fun]

So a 1 hit wonder. 2 million sales is very good, but it's not like the biggest hit of the decade.

They're not even done adding content to Shovel Knight though. And again, it continues to sell well. You act as if Yacht Club released Shovel Knight 2, and it flopped.

Banjo is well-known, but there are others who bury him deep in the ground in terms of iconicity, like Rayman, Crash, Doomguy, etc

IIRC Rayman Origins and Legends struggled with sales.

Yes, there are more popular icons, but they don't have anything to do with why Banjo is a popular Smash pick.

 

[Will]

My point is your assessment of why Banjo is a popular pic is a false one (Though smash certainly hasn't hurt his relevancy)

My assessment?

I was going to mention Ringabel as that as well but she kinda fits it too

Plus it fits with Geno that it's her destined quest

yeah but ringabels cooler imo
Tiz is equally as destined if you remember the whole plot shenanigans with him.

If he somehow did post a video, the ONLY way I would believe it if it was only the new, non-echo characters on a non-returning stage actually FIGHTING on it.

Hence why this will never happen.

So you're telling me that you were never sold on the ESRB leak because the footage was them fighting on Battlefield?

 

[Jim_Puff]

I’m sure leakers would love people to buy into their claims, but really all they’re looking for is attention, because every fake leak will be proven fake eventually. They’re just a special breed of troll.

And last I checked this leak has been the topic of discussion pretty non-stop since it showed up. So even if you don’t believe it, which you shouldn’t, you’re still playing into the leakers’ hands.

I mostly agree with you, but it's gotta be said I'm a sucker for talking about leaks (no matter how fake or legit they may seem). It's just nice discussion pieces, especially in times when there's a drought of information.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Pokemon is bigger than Jesus though. A new Pokemon character is a surefire hit.

What assurance did Sakurai have in 2015 that ARMS and Xenoblade 2 would be big hits? What if they were a Codename STEAM or Other M?

Pokemon gets a special exception because it's ****ing Pokemon, the IP makes so much money it's stupid. There's no comparison.

There is also the issue that Sakurai wouldn't really need to give Xenoblade the Greninja treatment as Xenoblade X was still really recent around the time the roster for this game was conceptualised, especially with its international release date. Granted, I still don't think Elma is happening, given the direction of this newcomer roster.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

You got any proof that rayman is more recognizable? Because that just sounds like something you're assuming.

Franchise sales
– Rayman: 25 million
-Banjo-Kazooie: 6,33 million

 

[Arcadenik]

Agnés
Agnès

The accent is flipped.

Aha! Now I see it! Thank you!

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

They're not even done adding content to Shovel Knight though. And again, it continues to sell well. You act as if Yacht Club released Shovel Knight 2, and it flopped.
IIRC Rayman Origins and Legends struggled with sales.

Yes, there are more popular icons, but they don't have anything to do with why Banjo is a popular Smash pick.

I thought origins and legends did great, they were certainly critically acclaimed. You literally couldn't get away from them they were being so hyped up

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's not worth believing in a character from a dead franchise, apparently.

Because that never happened before, am I right?

 

[Fenriraga]

My assessment?


yeah but ringabels cooler imo
Tiz is equally as destined if you remember the whole plot shenanigans with him.


So you're telling me that you were never sold on the ESRB leak because the footage was them fighting on Battlefield?

No, I was sold on the ERSB leak because it showed characters like Shulk and Bowser Jr. in action and was very clearly 3DS gameplay. Can't really represent 3DS's graphical style in a Brawl mod.

And Battlefield was still "New", technically.

 

[lizard1929]

I think because of Rare being a well known developer (despite there work) that they are commonly attributed to there development of Banjo Kazooie.
In Agnes case I don't know who the development team is except that square enix is the owner who I attribute with FF and DQ more.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

SourceGaming and Artsy whatever he is called already confirmed this to be fake. I'm talking about a popular and dedicated Smash channel and the dude who made the Rayman fake who is an expert in photoshopping. Not to mention the many factors that makes those images look unprofessional.

That would be Omni, and I'm friends with the dude on fb lmao

Tell that to Blue

@BluePikmin11

I gotcha fam

Me and Blue bet actual ****ing money whether or not Hanafuda will be a playable character. 45 dollars to be exact

So did you win?

Because I'd like to join that bet lmao I'm kidding I don't want to bet an obvious character that's not gonna get in

Like how Wolf was an obvious shoo in for Smash 4 DLC?

And my feels are hit again


Thanks for the reminder of the very dark times for us Wolf supporters

 

[staindgrey]

Like for instance, it's comparing Juri to Ken or maybe Chun-Li. ( I think Chun has more official costumes than her, so she may not be an apt comparison.) But you see a lot more love for Juri in the general SF community than you do for one of the most iconic characters of the series, Ken. That doesn't mean that Juri is considered way more iconic than Ken, it's just they have a larger fanbase.

So. Juri and Ken player here. I just want to set the record straight.

Ken is more well known because he came way before Juri, and Juri has more immediately available evidence of a fanbase because she's designed to be a hot, sexual female character and the internet has a fascination with feet. For some reason.

 

[StormC]

Banjo is probably more well known and iconic to Nintendo fans. Rayman to everyone else.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

there are more popular icons, but they don't have anything to do with why Banjo is a popular Smash pick.

Being a popular Smash pick =/= being iconic in the industry

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Franchise sales
– Rayman: 25 million
-Banjo-Kazooie: 6,33 million

That's not a fair comparison at all.

Banjo had three games in 20 years.

Rayman had more than that in 5, iirc.

 

[DevaAshera]

Oh no, we got a unique SF character, it would definitely be Chun-Li. She is the de-facto fighting game female character. She is also one of the most iconic characters in gaming period.
I just think Ken vs. Juri is a more apt comparison given they basically fill the same roles that Tails and Shadow respectively are.
One's the iconic P2 character and the other is the dark and modern fan favorite.
But your comparison to Luigi and Bowser doesn't exactly work, as they're both equally important in terms of the series. Shadow..not so much on the level of Bowser. I'd say that reward goes to Eggman/Robotnik or maybe even Metal Sonic.
And I don't think Sakurai would put in Shadow before he would Tails, like I said it'd be putting Juri before Ken. Especially when Tails is a pretty easy echo in terms of moveset, outside of an Up-B and animations.
Kinda like what people were exactly suggesting for Shadow.
Like I said, Sakurai could pull a fast one on me and I would be insanely wrong.

The difference between Ken & Juri and Tails & Shadow is more that Ken and Juri have roughly equal popularity, or its tipped in Ken's favor, while Sega themselves have referred to Shadow as the 2nd most popular character in the series. We know in the past that Knuckles was once the second most popular, so we can guess they are both more popular then Tails. Smash isn't just about importance, otherwise we'd have gotten Toad instead of Rosalina last game.

Though I love Tails, I'd be shocked if they didn't choose Shadow, who is near literally a carbon copy of Sonic and thus an easier echo while being a more popular character then the rest of the cast.

Oh cool, I’d like her in then. Didn’t know about that remake, I’ll have to play it

Its pretty good, has 3D 3rd Person Dungeon Crawling areas too, makes it pretty different from Awakening & Fates.

 

[TotalGoner]

And Banjo is iconic, just not relevant to games today.

Neither were Pit, Ice Climbers, Little Mac, or Megaman. Banjo and Kazooie at least have the iconic part going for him. More so than ice Climbers or Pit. This is a non argument.

 

[Fenriraga]

Why are we all still waving around sales numbers like they actually mean something?

 

[Funktastic]

...This is why characters like Spring-Man... shouldn't be discounted

I agree with you on the other characters, but the August Direct mentioned that Simon/Richter had the longest basic attack range in the game; any ARMS rep would have to have an incredibly long reach, probably longest in the game. I do think we may see Spring-Man as DLC however.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Why are we all still waving around sales numbers like they actually mean something?

Better question is why are we still waving around anecdotes like they actually mean something in terms of who is more well-known?

 

[Luminario]

I'm so confused.

Some people have told me Edea is the main character of the game, others have told me it's Agnes.

Which one is it?

Tiz is the protagonist of the first game and a later party member of the second game. He's got a notable role in both games, though some questions about what he is only gets answered in the second game. I feel his blasé "farm boy" design from the first game usually means he's overlooked at first glance.

Agnes could be regarded as the most important party member in the first game in regards to how she fits into the story. She's also likely the most recognisable character from the game and the one who appears the most in the CGI cutsenes. She's not playable in the second game, but she does have a notable role throughout.

Edea is a party member in both the first and second game, but she's not exactly the main character of either. She has a few moments but it's clear she's not the main focus in the grand scheme of things.

 

[TheYungLink]

Plot twist: Banjo gets in but their stage is Rusty Bucket Bay.

 

[Schnee117]

Because that never happened before, am I right?

The Mega Man franchise wasn't dead when Sakurai decided the roster.
Mega Man 10 was literally 2 years before the roster was sorted and 4 years before Smash 4 released

 

[DevaAshera]

That's not a fair comparison at all.

Banjo had three games in 20 years.

Rayman had more than that in 5, iirc.

5 games. Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Grunty's Revenge (GBA), Banjo-Pilot (GBA), and Nuts & Bolts.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

My assessment?

uh...Yes?

the reasons you're attributing to his popularity, basically claiming they're the same as for Geno, are inaccurate, is what I'm trying to say. He's not just someone propped up by smash

 

[CosmicQuark]

So a 1 hit wonder. 2 million sales is very good, but it's not like the biggest hit of the decade.
Banjo is well-known, but there are others who bury him deep in the ground in terms of iconicity, like Rayman, Crash, Doomguy, etc

You mean two hit wonder, as there was Banjo-Tooie. Also the GBA games. And Nuts and Bolts, which while pissing on everything the original games were about, still somehow got a following from people who had never played the original N64 games. And of course the spiritual successor Yooka Laylee, which became the fastest game in Kickstarter history to reach a million dollars, which speaks to the popularity of the games regardless of what people thought the quality of YL was. If we're gonna use words like one hit wonders, it's best to use them properly. Nobody's claiming B&K is Crash levels of iconic--but they were still Nintendo icons back in the day.

The reason why Banjo-Kazooie isn't relevant these days is Microsoft bought Rare and had no intention of treating any of it's IP with respect, especially when they realized their demographic was about shooters, not platformers. Had Banjo-Kazooie stayed on Nintendo, they probably would have gotten the third game fans had wanted. And that's one of the many reasons many fans want to see Banjo & Kazooie in Smash--the bear and bird deserve to go back home where they belong.

 

[Roberk]

Also this "lol only old people know who Banjo" business is silly.

Smash is a 20 year old franchise. It has a huge adult fanbase, and so does the Switch - people in their 20s and 30s are the biggest demographic for it.

How many kids are out here playing old Castlevania games with Simon Belmont or DKC games with K. Rool in them? I guess they all got to play Samus Returns and learn who Ridley was because he was recent, right?

I'm under 20 and I just beat Castlevania: Rondo of Blood and I remember playing DKC 1-3 waaay back in early elementary school. Metroid Fusion was super popular amongst my classmates to play through on emulators back in middle school. Last year I beat Fallout 1 and started playing Fallout 2 for a time. This year I beat Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War.

We're not clueless lol. "Young people" can play older games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

5 games. Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Grunty's Revenge (GBA), Banjo-Pilot (GBA), and Nuts & Bolts.

My point still stands that it's an unfair comparison.

Of course the franchise with a lot more games would sell more units. That's not a testament to it being more popular, it's basic logic.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think if Square Enix does get an echo it should be Zack (of Cloud).

You get another Cloud as an echo of Cloud instead (Cloudception)

 

[Izayoi]

I want to say that I appreciate any character inclusion as it celebrates their fans. I have no idea who Richter or Simon are, I have no real relation to Ridley or K. Rool. But if they are playable, they make their respective fans happy, and that's more fun to the party.
Asking "why this and not that" and then insulting "that" while praising "this" is horrible for both sides you created in a comparison that shouldn't even have happened in the first place. It's just like the clone situation back in Smash 4 until we got the Echo naming scheme. The naming wasn't necessary in the first place; the community's divisiveness towards it caused a naming convention to be necessary.

Please don't hate _____ supporters for wanting or getting something they wanted over what you want because you're a _____ supporter... Because if you want to tell me that in this big roster of nearly 70 characters you don't have a single character that you love already in it then you really aren't a Smash fan.
Why?
Because being a Smash fan also means loving a character you never knew you'd love to play as.
That's the beauty of Smash.

Banjo and Kazooie are beautiful characters.
So is Agnès.

Let's stop with the hating on each other and have a nice day.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Because that never happened before, am I right?

Could also include Simon and Richter in that if we count Mega Man, it's been longer since Castlevania got a game than it was in between Mega Man 10 and his Smash reveal.

 

[Deleted member]

Pokemon is bigger than Jesus though. A new Pokemon character is a surefire hit.

What assurance did Sakurai have in 2015 that ARMS and Xenoblade 2 would be big hits? What if they were a Codename STEAM or Other M?

Pokemon gets a special exception because it's ****ing Pokemon, the IP makes so much money it's stupid. There's no comparison.

Of course, it'd be a no-brainer to add in a recent gen Pokemon, but you can't just rule everything out of Sakurai is willing to go THAT far. Not to mention with Sonic not even being a part of the project plan of Brawl's and being added mid-development and Roy being practically an advert, we've had instances to where we can't just rule stuff out just yet.

I agree with you on the other characters, but the August Direct mentioned that Simon/Richter had the longest basic attack range in the game; any ARMS rep would have to have an incredibly long reach, probably longest in the game. I do think we may see Spring-Man as DLC however.

This is true, but then remember, this is Sakurai the Japes Master, and he could say that Spring-Man can have just as much range. But I will say after Simon retaining that aspect about his length from his original games, that does leave ARMS in general in a unique spot.

 

[staindgrey]

5 games. Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Grunty's Revenge (GBA), Banjo-Pilot (GBA), and Nuts & Bolts.

Plus we have to remember that all three of his non-GBA games were re-released a few years ago in Rare Replay to the tune of roughly a million copies.

Just because the series hasn't had a brand new game in some time doesn't completely diminish recognizability. Yookah Laylay (however you spell that) was Kickstarted specifically to fill the void left by a lack of B&K games.