Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

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i've turned him anime for you

i'm such an artist

At least he's not blushing.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I honestly find this way blown out of proportion. It's the most iconic gaming franchise of all time, right next to Pokemon. I think Paper Mario's virtues should outweigh that.

His merit as a character is also Mario's merit. I love Link and he deserves to be in Smash, but 3? Eh. I am okay with it because "Everyone is Here!"
If not for Dr. Mario, I think I would have been on the bandwagon. He just isn't my preferred character to rally behind, current roster given. I've never been a big Mario fan as it is, but Paper Mario was my favorite to play out of them all.

 

[Slavic]

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At least he's not blushing.

I'll keep that in mind for the second draft

 

[LetterO]

A RH rep is pretty likely but it's barely ever mentioned so that's pretty sad for me.

 

[Will]

A RH rep is pretty likely but it's barely ever mentioned so that's pretty sad for me.

I see an RH rep as kind of weird, because it takes away what Geno was to be imagined in by Sakurai. You know about how he was like "oh he can do rhythmic attacks!" and stuff? I mean, Rhythm Heaven. Rhythm is in the name.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Disney not want their KH characters fighting each other? Which is why Dissidia is FF, and not KH?
Wouldn't that extend to Sora fighting others?

Sora is a fighting fiend in his games. It's weird because he does fight Riku, his best friend, multiple times. He also fights Cloud, Squall, Tidus, Wakka, Selphie, Auron and a slew of Disney characters.

 

[Deleted member]

While we're on the topic of Square Enix characters... I really need to hear this in Smash if a Dragon Quest character ever made it in. Dragon Quest 9 was the first one I played and I'm forever in love with this theme.

I hope Nintendo and Square get back on good terms so we can see Geno, Chrono, and DQ characters alongside Cloud. Seriously, imagine if they went all-out with someone like Chrono like they did with Simon...

As much as Dragon Quest is popular or how people want 2B in, I think when it comes to the next Square Enix franchise, it HAS to be Chrono Trigger.
We're talking about the Ocarina of Time of RPGs, after all. I can see the Chrono reveal probably beating Snake and Cloud's reveal in Japan easily, and the West I don't think would have a problem at all with Chrono, even if he had anime looks.

I, too, want Chrono Trigger REALLLLLY ****ing badly, so I sorta hope that after Geno we get Chrono and not Sora. Chrono deserves it more, tbh.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

That's a good catch. I'm going to do some research if there's any Square Enix mention on the back of the packaging or elsewhere. It could be possible that Disney is simple the distributor of the merchandise in that region. I live in Tokyo and Kingdom Hearts merchandise can be found and purchased in the Square Enix café in Akihabara. This material has Square Enix labels on it. Thanks bringing this post to our attention. I'll also have to read more up on the ownership and development of Kingdom Hearts.

Edit: Emailed my PR contact from Square Enix an inquiry on Kingdom Hearts as well as Sora brand management and ownership. Not sure if I'll get an answer, let alone one relevant to this situation, but hopefully we can learn a bit more on the the 3rd party situation it's in.

I used to work on Disney Infinity and have worked directly with the Kingdom Hearts IP. I have friend in Disney Interactive legal who've I've already synced with on this question. Disney owns the rights to any non-Final Fantasy/TWEWY character in Kingdom Hearts. However, Disney still works directly with Square-Enix on any merchandising, advertising, and basically anything that uses the likeness of those characters.

I've also brought this up multiple times, lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

It'd be the one cool and logical way to get an Akira Toriyama character who isn't Goku into Smash and make everyone happy.

People need to stop this kind of logic.
Just because someone was designed by Akira Toriyama doesn't mean that people who want Goku will be happy.
Just like having a character voiced by Sean Schemmel (in Smash 4 at least) didn't.
Just like having a character who is a martial artist that shoots energy blasts (Ryu) didn't.

The thing is, there is a reason people want Goku. Because it's Goku.
Are they likely to get what they want? No. But that doesn't mean they will be/should be "satisfied" with an unrelated character just because they have one or more traits like the one they want.

 

[Nethermoosen]

As much as Dragon Quest is popular or how people want 2B in, I think when it comes to the next Square Enix franchise, it HAS to be Chrono Trigger.
We're talking about the Ocarina of Time of RPGs, after all. I can see the Chrono reveal probably beating Snake and Cloud's reveal in Japan easily, and the West I don't think would have a problem at all with Chrono, even if he had anime looks.

I, too, want Chrono Trigger REALLLLLY ****ing badly, so I sorta hope that after Geno we get Chrono and not Sora. Chrono deserves it more, tbh.

Out of curiosity, what do we mean when we say a character is more deserving than another?

 

[Knight Dude]

A RH rep is pretty likely but it's barely ever mentioned so that's pretty sad for me.

It isn't a series that I'm too interested in, so I can't offer much in the way of discussion for Rhythm Heaven.

 

[MainJPW]

and the West I don't think would have a problem at all with Chrono, even if he had anime looks.

They'd be too distracted by the fact that he looks like a certain spiky haired monkey boy.

 

[DLEAF]

Everyone's sleeping on the most likely Disney rep...

That's right, Billy the Ghost from Disney's Party (2003), released exclusively on the Nintendo Gamecube.

 

[Deleted member]

They'd be too distracted by the fact that he looks like a certain spiky haired monkey boy.

Exactly. Gotta get them salt mines at full capacity.

Out of curiosity, what do we mean when we say a character is more deserving than another?

I suppose in this instance when we're talking about Square Enix entities. IMO, I feel as if Chrono is more deserving due to the rich story and writing, music, pretty much any reason that people have on their top 10 list with Chrono Trigger being #1.

Kingdom Hearts I know is pretty big, but when we're talking about having legacy and legacy with Nintendo, I feel as if Chrono deserves it more for practically redefining an entire genre of video games.

 

[Sephazon]

I used to work on Disney Infinity and have worked directly with the Kingdom Hearts IP. I have friend in Disney Interactive legal who've I've already synced with on this question. Disney owns the rights to any non-Final Fantasy/TWEWY character in Kingdom Hearts. However, Disney still works directly with Square-Enix on any merchandising, advertising, and basically anything that uses the likeness of those characters.

Thanks for the insight! I'll be sure to remember for future discussions.

People need to stop this kind of logic.
Just because someone was designed by Akira Toriyama doesn't mean that people who want Goku will be happy.
Just like having a character voiced by Sean Schemmel (in Smash 4 at least) didn't.
Just like having a character who is a martial artist that shoots energy blasts (Ryu) didn't.

Simple solution: a matchup featuring Crono, Donkey Kong, Lucario, and Ryu. Problem solved. Every trait in one match.

 

[MainJPW]

Just because someone was designed by Akira Toriyama doesn't mean that people who want Goku will be happy.
Just like having a character voiced by Sean Schemmel (in Smash 4 at least) didn't.
Just like having a character who is a martial artist that shoots energy blasts (Ryu) didn't.

Combine all these and you get Goku... in spirit.

One last thing. Add Goku from Yuyuki and you have a character who's based on the same myth.

 

[Rhus]

Has it been confirmed that the "new demo" with K Rool and such is actually a new build of the game?

 

[Nethermoosen]

Exactly. Gotta get them salt mines at full capacity.

I suppose in this instance when we're talking about Square Enix entities. IMO, I feel as if Chrono is more deserving due to the rich story and writing, music, pretty much any reason that people have on their top 10 list with Chrono Trigger being #1.

Kingdom Hearts I know is pretty big, but when we're talking about having legacy and legacy with Nintendo, I feel as if Chrono deserves it more for practically redefining an entire genre of video games.

I could see that. The story was exceptional and the mechanics were insane in their time.

Kingdom Hearts also redefined the action-rpg genre. It had all the options of a Final Fantasy but used them better than even the later FF12 did in my opinion. It created a union between two companies(the success of which was kinda surprising).
Anyway, this is just conversation. Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite games(1 & 2, anyways), but I would prefer Chrono in Smash.

 

[Wambo]

I'd prefer Chrono over Sora just because of history. Same with Doom Guy over Master Chief.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

"ARE YOU MEMEING AGAIN, SON?!?"

I have no problem with the Fire Emblem characters now that we have enough characters from other IPs to balance them out, but having so many in Smash 4 was annoying. I like non-human characters like K.Rool/Geno, and the absence of that variety ruined the game for me.

Agreed. Obviously I'm an FE guy so I'm biased, but we've got, what, 15 additional characters since Smash 4 with more on the way? Having just one of those be an FE character is fine. Especially considering the circumstances of him being particularly popular, an Echo, and a character who was seen as unfairly missing his chance last game.

 

[AzureFlame4]

If Samus and Link can have three versions of themselves then so can Mario. I think if there wasn't such a big push for Geno he would have a much higher shot as the Mario RPG rep. Oh well, as long as Mario RPGs get something

Also, I see a lot of people talking about the "6 likely echoes". Who are they?

 

[ArkhaosZero]

If Samus and Link can have three versions of themselves then so can Mario. I think if there wasn't such a big push for Geno he would have a much higher shot as the Mario RPG rep. Oh well, as long as Mario RPGs get something

Also, I see a lot of people talking about the "6 likely echoes". Who are they?

Honestly, I could see both Geno and Paper Mario making it in, perhaps even with a unique emblem to represent the Mario RPG spin offs. Maybe something along the lines of an open book with a page being turned?

EDIT: Also, to answer your second question, Shadow and Isabelle are generally considered locks at this point. Dixie is very likely as well, and Ken has been directly implicated by Verge. Not sure on the other 2...

 

[Wambo]

Honestly, I could see both Geno and Paper Mario making it in, perhaps even with a unique emblem to represent the Mario RPG spin offs. Maybe something along the lines of an open book with a page being turned?

I could see a Starman being used to represent Geno/Mario RPG characters, as important star objects are quite common in them.

 

[Noipoi]

Even though the character is from a Mario rpg, it's still a Mario rpg.
I think they'd still have the mushroom.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

Even though the character is from a Mario rpg, it's still a Mario rpg.
I think they'd still have the mushroom.

Definitely possible that they'd still fall under that category. Though, it has precedence to change with Yoshi. Yoshi is 100% a Mario character, and even in his own spin off titles, they always feature Mario himself and/or Mario characters.. yet he's still represented by a Yoshi egg emblem.

Obviously, we won't know until one makes it in.

 

[MainJPW]

Even though the character is from a Mario rpg, it's still a Mario rpg.
I think they'd still have the mushroom.

Especially if spin-offs is what that second mushroom in the Sount Test is for.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

Especially if spin-offs is what that second mushroom in the Sount Test is for.

As I understand it, that represents Mario spin off music, as there's so much in general. Supposedly it was this way in Smash 4 as well, though I dont recall myself.

Would be interesting if they grouped Paper Mario/Geno in with that group, though. In that case, a Star Man as an Emblem would be doubley fitting.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I don't think there is any reason to believe Shadow is a lock just because his AT is missing. There hasn't been any signs pointing to him otherwise or any rumors with his involvement

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Its a shame that if we get a DQ rep we will probably get like maybe 2 midi tracks and nothing remotely orchestrated or remixes

Sugiyama seems like that type of old fashioned dudes who'd go crazy if heard some hardcore metal remix of one the songs he composed

None of the songs in the DQ Heroes even got some butt rock remix despite warriors games being known for that

 

[MainJPW]

I don't think there is any reason to believe Shadow is a lock just because his AT is missing. There hasn't been any signs pointing to him otherwise or any rumors with his involvement

It's that in combination with Richter that get peoples hopes up. If anything it's likely.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

I don't think there is any reason to believe Shadow is a lock just because his AT is missing. There hasn't been any signs pointing to him otherwise or any rumors with his involvement

I personally don't count anyone in before I know they are. I've been through the cycle enough times to know that even the most obvious picks can be pulled out from your grip.

However, it's not unfounded. The AT is gone, Shadow easily fills out the popularity demand to meet the requirements for Smash (frequently showing up on mock polls, and rivaling Sonic himself in popularity), and most importantly, he'd work as an Echo. Richter also debunks the notion that you can't have a third party Echo.

All the chips are lining up in Shadow's favor. Nothing is certain until it's revealed, but it's an easy pick, to say the least.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Definitely possible that they'd still fall under that category. Though, it has precedence to change with Yoshi. Yoshi is 100% a Mario character, and even in his own spin off titles, they always feature Mario himself and/or Mario characters.. yet he's still represented by a Yoshi egg emblem.

Obviously, we won't know until one makes it in.

On the other hand, Yoshi is the main protagonist of his games and Mario himself doesn't even play a role in all of them while Geno still has to share the spotlight with the plumber.

 

[CosmicQuark]

No character is a "lock"--I find that's the best way to wind up disappointed. But in terms of echoes, I personally think there will be four. Shadow, while not a lock, is the most likely, given his popularity and being from a popular series, and wouldn't take much to differentiate himself from Sonic. The next is Dixie--just as Ridley was revealed, Dark Samus afterwards, after the reveal of King K Rool, I think Dixie is likely. Next are Isabelle and Ken, both implicated by Verge, though the latter kind of being the defining echo, being one of the original clone characters, whereas I find the former a bit of a stretch, but her popularity is there (and probably wouldn't make for an interesting unique character). However, if there are two more, my next guess would be Impa, especially if Skull Kid is revealed as a unique character. The last one is a bit of a stretch, but my guess given "Sakurai bias" and an emphasis on villians, Medusa is a possibility. There are others like Black Shadow and Black Knight, but I have no familiarity to make a good assessment.

EDIT: I also wouldn't be surprised if we get another echo like Richter, which no one expected. At least I hope so to make things interesting. Another favorite echo of mine would be Felix, if Isaac was in, though I'm not familiar with the series and wouldn't know if he'd make a good echo or not.

 

[MainJPW]

No character is a "lock"

'Cept Inkling.

 

[Onua]

No character is a "lock"--I find that's the best way to wind up disappointed. But in terms of echoes, I personally think there will be four. Shadow, while not a lock, is the most likely, given his popularity and being from a popular series, and wouldn't take much to differentiate himself from Sonic. The next is Dixie--just as Ridley was revealed, Dark Samus afterwards, after the reveal of King K Rool, I think Dixie is likely. Next are Isabelle and Ken, both implicated by Verge, though the latter kind of being the defining echo, being one of the original clone characters, whereas I find the former a bit of a stretch, but her popularity is there (and probably wouldn't make for an interesting unique character). However, if there are two more, my next guess would be Impa, especially if Skull Kid is revealed as a unique character. The last one is a bit of a stretch, but my guess given "Sakurai bias" and an emphasis on villians, Medusa is a possibility. There are others like Black Shadow and Black Knight, but I have no familiarity to make a good assessment.

EDIT: I also wouldn't be surprised if we get another echo like Richter, which no one expected. At least I hope so to make things interesting. Another favorite echo of mine would be Felix, if Isaac was in, though I'm not familiar with the series and wouldn't know if he'd make a good echo or not.

I unironically think Medusa is actually one of the most likely echoes easily. Shes got a ton going for her, a lot more than people give her credit for

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

'Cept Inkling.

The only one even worth calling a lock anyway.

Rest vary from likely to unlikely to impossible.

If Samus and Link can have three versions of themselves then so can Mario. I think if there wasn't such a big push for Geno he would have a much higher shot as the Mario RPG rep. Oh well, as long as Mario RPGs get something

Also, I see a lot of people talking about the "6 likely echoes". Who are they?

That is not a third version of Samus. It's a completely different person who stole her armor. Only Link has 3 versions of the character. Nobody else has anything beyond 2 at best.

 

[ArkhaosZero]

I unironically think Medusa is actually one of the most likely echoes easily. Shes got a ton going for her, a lot more than people give her credit for

Yeah, Medusa is easily possible. The third most recurring KI character, would overlay on Palutena nicely (especially given how malleable the Goddess' are moveset wise), and was a popular pick around the time of the poll.

 

[Onua]

Yeah, Medusa is easily possible. The third most recurring KI character, would overlay on Palutena nicely (especially given how malleable the Goddess' are moveset wise), and was a popular pick around the time of the poll.

Luckily Viridi has already been deconfirmed.
Was a popular around the time of the poll
Medusa alt for Palu is missing still
One of the original 3 main characters from KI
Her VA is suspiciously silent rn despite ppl asking her about things
Echoes were added and she would be one of the absolute easiest first party echoes to add
Shes a woman and one of the ONLY nintendo villains thats a girl, with the game adding more and more villains it helps her
Shes the last NES villain left
They still havent shown off Magnus and Phosphora, We saw Metroid and Mother Brain finally with Dark Samus trailer so maybe theyll do something here with the two assists being shown off during hers
Sakura Bias
She also fits 1 for 1 with Palutena
Her only honest first party competition for echoes are Isabelle and Dixie, both of whom require far more work than her to add.

She has a lot of weirdly suspicious things going for her rn. More than a lot of other characters do

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Shes got a ton going for her, a lot more than people give her credit for

She got Sakurai San going for her. I hear this guy is pretty influencial...

 

[Onua]

She got Sakurai San going for her. I hear this guy is pretty influencial...

Bless you daddy sakurai bias, pls come through for us this one time