Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DarkFalcon]

I definitely think Verge is the reason why no one talks about Decidueye anymore (and also why we always talk about Incineroar now)

To be fair he also said no Lycanroc. One support base pretty much vanished, the other stayed around.

 

[Noipoi]

Even if he's wrong and Incineroar doesn't get in, verge's leak allowed him to be actually discussed instead of scoffed at because "It's obviously Decidueye."
And for that I am thankful.

 

[Momotsuki]

Here's my list of Echo Fighters, whether I want them, and what the odds are in my opinion.
Name (Want%) (Odds%)
Isabelle (100%) (70%)
Shadow (30%) (95%)
Ken (30%) (80%)
Dixie (60%) (55%)
Black Knight (0%) (50%)
Black Shadow (50%) (40%)
Impa (40%) (50%)
Ninten (70%) (10%)
Octoling (60%) (20%)
Medusa (50%) (25%)
Dark Meta Knight (80%) (15%)
Dry Bowser (55%) (10%)

 

[Sephazon]

Absolutely love seeing this level of insight, man. I feel like I could talk to you for days, this sort of thing interests me immensely haha.

Although it wasn't directed at me, I do feel very strongly about what I'd like to see in future entries, so allow me to interject...

There are 2 main problems that I have with Pokemon: They often throw away great ideas without improving on them, and they feel stuck in a Gameboy-era world structure.

Video games as a medium benefit much more than any other by being iterative. You can do the same thing again and make it better the second time. Pokemon has a slew of would-be great additions (custom pokeballs, super training, berry farms, berry incubators, roller skates) that would thoroughly improve future installments were they to become staples and be improved upon. This seems like a misunderstanding of the medium on Gamefreak's part.

I know people talk about an open world Pokemon a lot, and while that would be awesome, there's a multitude of ways to go about recapturing the "feeling of adventure". Pokemon feels like a claustrophobic hallway simulator where NPC's labelled as "friends" guide you the entire way. I dont believe kids lack the where-with-all to figure out Pokemon. I don't believe that kids need linearity to understand getting through a game. And, more importantly, kid's arent Pokemon's only demographic. So long as they could open the world up and let us travel at our own pace and explore unnecessary areas, I'd be fine. Perhaps progression would function like Xenoblade 1, where it is technically a linear journey, but feels unrestricted as you have thorough breathing room.

Really, I just want to go climb a random tree, go off the beaten path, and maybe find a cool rare Pokemon on my own accord. I've played every entry in the series, but DPPt onward has basically seen the main game as a huge obstacle to me until I get to the end game where I can play competitively. And, sadly, recent balance decisions have unfortunately made that a no-go for me..

One word that stuck out the most to me in your reply was "linearity." Progression in an RPG should not be restrictive based on hitting certain points. In my opinion, Pokémon could learn from the very first Zelda game (and now Breath of the Wild) by allowing trainers to fight gyms, or whatever leader system is in place, in whichever order they prefer. This would allow each player to have their own unique journey while still providing a challenge and story for them to follow. It could be a reverse Metroid: Other M situation where we as players are so used to linearity, that if we were to experience something new in the series, it would be akin to playing Metroid Prime for the first time. Perhaps being open world isn't the problem, but, as other members have pointed out below, it's really the lack of choice which is present in Pokémon. Whether it be progression, customization or even team building, we need more decision making for a fresh experience.

Better player customization, honestly. Gamefreak keeps making new "main character" designs for each PokeMon game (with very limited or no customization for them), so I hope to see them change that.

I always found this weird, too. Part of a character's design is supposed to suggest their personality and whatnot, but when the character you play as in PokeMon doesn't even have a personality and has no attachment to the world outside of "childhood best friends/rivals who've know them for years", it just seems pointless to restrict the player to a totally crazy design and not give them many options over how they look.

I'm a little tired so I might've worded that poorly, but do you know what I mean?

No worries. I understand where you're coming from. Customization as a player is something that Game Freak has been trying to implement in the past few generations, but I can see how players may want more than a wholly generic avatar. The rival system seems to have gone downhill. I see it less of offering a challenge and more of an annoyance when I see what should be a challenge as more of an attempted comedic filler.

Spectacularly new is not even what I want from a Pokémon game. I just wish the game was more focused on what the game even advertises. Battle, capturing Pokémon, story, lore and fun. The mini games and fashion shows are tedious. Some may enjoy it, but even those folks didn’t buy Pokémon for that. The removal of some things is actually what would make it better. Such as removing HMs. Those causes problems that should never have been around. The ways in which Pokémon evolve, if not by leveling, should at least be fun or like a side quest. Shedinja and Glaceon are examples of evolutions that weren’t normal, but also weren’t tedious or demanded specific times of day. Specific times are terrible for people with a schedule.

Pokémon’s core mechanics are the selling point. That’s why it keeps selling. Not the above things they added...and hopefully will continue removing in favor of more focused design.

I know it’s work and I know now that the franchise is tightly controlled, but that’s how I feel, good sir.

Indeed, the inclusion of so many mini games has become a bit of a distraction. I understand the want for players to interact with their Pokémon, but so far it's seemed very phoned in. It's almost as if the developers have many ideas and just throw them all in without much inner development or consideration. What could be made into some sort of great mechanic is usually brought down to a simple level and thrown in haphazardly, typically to not return in future installments, which takes away a level of consistency. For example, berry use has been all over the place since its inception in the second generation. Next time, perhaps we'll find berries lying around in tall grass. Who knows.

A good example of inconsistency can be seen in the development of ORAS. at ORAS returned, albeit temporarily, to a tiled movement system, even after XY attempted to break away from it. While this isn't mini-game related, it does highlight a lack of development consistency. To be fair though, ORAS was developed by Game Freak's Team B, while new generational core games are developed by Team A. At any rate, it still doesn't excuse the vast other inconsistencies present in the remake.

I get the point you're trying to make, but Final Fantasy is not what you want to use in this example as the series' battle system changes quite a bit from game to game (sometimes dramatically). Try using Dragon Quest for this example instead.

Great point! Originally I had considered using Dragon Quest as an example, but used Final Fantasy for the sake of using a series I'm far more familiar with.

I just want you to know you're a pretty cool guy for answering these questions and giving these insightful answers!

No worries. Although I've worked with these brands in a professional manner and am a lifelong fan, I'm always willing to provide a critical analysis of them. If you love something, you should be constructively critical of it, so that it can grow. That said, I do remind myself of the many wonderful things these brands and games have shown. While I see areas that can be improved, I also try to look for elements which should be appreciated and not overlooked.

 

[NintenRob]

I still don't get why it was Incineroar that everyone jumped to. It's just so hideous.

And it amazes me how little people talk about Tapu Koko, it got quite a bit of promotion pre-release and plays prominent roles in both games and anime (even if it gets a bit less screen time)

Heck, in Sun and Moon, you encounter the thing before your own starter.

 

[Noipoi]

One word that stuck out the most to me in your reply was "linearity." Progression in an RPG should not be restrictive based on hitting certain points. In my opinion, Pokémon could learn from the very first Zelda game (and now Breath of the Wild) by allowing trainers to fight gyms, or whatever leader system is in place, in whichever order they prefer. This would allow each player to have their own unique journey while still providing a challenge and story for them to follow. It could be a reverse Metroid: Other M situation where we as players are so used to linearity, that if we were to experience something new in the series, it would be akin to playing Metroid Prime for the first time. Perhaps being open world isn't the problem, but, as other members have pointed out below, it's really the lack of choice which is present in Pokémon. Whether it be progression, customization or even team building, we need more decision making for a fresh experience.



No worries. I understand where you're coming from. Customization as a player is something that Game Freak has been trying to implement in the past few generations, but I can see how players may want more than a wholly generic avatar. The rival system seems to have gone downhill. I see it less of offering a challenge and more of an annoyance when I see what should be a challenge as more of an attempted comedic filler.



Indeed, the inclusion of so many mini games has become a bit of a distraction. I understand the want for players to interact with their Pokémon, but so far it's seemed very phoned in. It's almost as if the developers have many ideas and just throw them all in without much inner development or consideration. What could be made into some sort of great mechanic is usually brought down to a simple level and thrown in haphazardly, typically to not return in future installments, which takes away a level of consistency. For example, berry use has been all over the place since its inception in the second generation. Next time, perhaps we'll find berries lying around in tall grass. Who knows.

A good example of inconsistency can be seen in the development of ORAS. at ORAS returned, albeit temporarily, to a tiled movement system, even after XY attempted to break away from it. While this isn't mini-game related, it does highlight a lack of development consistency. To be fair though, ORAS was developed by Game Freak's Team B, while new generational core games are developed by Team A. At any rate, it still doesn't excuse the vast other inconsistencies present in the remake.



Great point! Originally I had considered using Dragon Quest as an example, but used Final Fantasy for the sake of using a series I'm far more familiar with.



No worries. Although I've worked with these brands in a professional manner and am a lifelong fan, I'm always willing to provide a critical analysis of them. If you love something, you should be constructively critical of it, so that it can grow. That said, I do remind myself of the many wonderful things these brands and games have shown. While I see areas that can be improved, I also try to look for elements which should be appreciated and not overlooked.

I'm definitely a more positive than negative Pokemon fan, I usually like to think of all the things I love about Pokemon as opposed to the few things that annoy me. But with all the changes made in Let's Go! Pikachu and Eevee i've just become a little more critical.
I'm gonna give the games a chance when they come out, but I think they might be too simplified for my tastes.

 

[RandomAce]

I definitely think Verge is the reason why no one talks about Decidueye anymore (and also why we always talk about Incineroar now)

Honestly, it was ongoing slope of arguements against Decidueye over the past months that made many lose hope, Verge was just the tipping point.

Though, I usually had Incineroar as one of the most likeliest ones to get added, since he does have a lot going for him, that I’m going to admit (and that I also like Incineroar in SM wanted to get one), but Idk why it took until now for people to seriously start talking about him.

 

[Wambo]

So, to sum up Verge's leaks:
>New Square character (assuming it's Geno if he has the same level of secrecy as K.Rool, would make sense for the source to not know which character.)
>New Gen 7 PokeMon character
>Ken
>Isabelle? (I think? Can't remember)

And the Namco characters leak was fake. Am I caught up on everything?

 

[DarkFalcon]

I still don't get why it was Incineroar that everyone jumped to. It's just so hideous..

Excuse me sir but this statement startles me.

 

[Noipoi]

I still don't get why it was Incineroar that everyone jumped to. It's just so hideous.

And it amazes me how little people talk about Tapu Koko, it got quite a bit of promotion pre-release and plays prominent roles in both games and anime (even if it gets a bit less screen time)

Heck, in Sun and Moon, you encounter the thing before your own starter.

I dunno about these other dudes, but i've always loved Incineroar.
I'm not sure why no one talks about Tapu Koko, I guess no one really cares. Lele's the best one, anyway.
Also, Incineroar is not hideous he's a big strong kitty who needs love, affection, and to break a few skulls every once and awhile.
Stop bullying him.

 

[Momotsuki]

So, to sum up Verge's leaks:
>New Square character (assuming it's Geno if he has the same level of secrecy as K.Rool, would make sense for the source to not know which character.)
>New Gen 7 PokeMon character
>Ken
>Isabelle? (I think? Can't remember)

And the Namco characters leak was fake. Am I caught up on everything?

You're correct, Isabelle is among Verge's claims. I want to believe so badly but I don't want to set myself up.

 

[MBRedboy31]

How does ROB spin around with that wire on him?

I just tested it out on Smash 3DS in slow-mo.
For side-B, the lower end of the wire moves around the side of his base while the upper end... clips through his chest anyway.
For down taunt, the wire just clips through his chest.

 

[Wambo]

I know this has probably already been discussed to hell and back, but what if the reason why Vergeben doesn't know who the Square Enix/PokeMon characters are is because of his source simply seeing people from those companies visiting the Smash developers for meetings? That seems like the likeliest case.

"Hey, some suits from Square Enix are visiting us today."
"Oh really?... Interesting..."

EDIT: Sakurai talks a lot about how difficult it is to acquire the rights for third-party characters. I can imagine that can take some actual face-to-face meetings.

 

[Chrono.]

I do wonder how they would handle Ken if he's really in.

Like, Ken and Ryu were basically palette swaps of each other at one point, but, that hasn't been the case for decades. They started to have small differences as soon as SFII and in later versions of that game they had even more differences from each other. The Ryu in Smash 4 has his entire SFIV moveset. A game that, by that point, had made Ryu and Ken diverge from each other quite a bit. Ryu has a ton of new normals Ken has never had in SF while Ken has his own set of normals that focus on kicking, which obviously, Ryu has never used. Even some specials moves that are completely unique to them, like Ryu's donkey kick (from SFIII, which also happens to be his forward smash) and Ken's wheel kick (well actually he only had this in CvS2, and it's technically Sean's move I guess.)

If Ken is really in, as an echo, I wonder if Sakurai would go the extra mile and replace all of Ryu's unique normals/specials with Ken's own. But, by that point, should he even be considered an echo anymore? I do feel like having Ken as a straight up clone of Ryu that only has aesthetic differences would be super weird. Especially since Smash Ryu has his entire kit from SFIV and Sakurai made it a big deal how he plays like he would in traditional fighting game. I can't see them not handling Ken with the same care, echo or not.

But who knows.

 

[NintenRob]

Excuse me sir but this statement startles me.

Than be startled, that thing was hated when first seen. People had so much hope for Litten to finally be a fire starter to stay on all fours.


And than it became one of the most bipedal fire starters to ever bipedal, and it's just ugly. I feel sorry for Litten and really regret ever evolving Torracat in my Ultra play through

 

[Noipoi]

Than be startled, that thing was hated when first seen. People had so much hope for Litten to finally be a fire starter to stay on all fours.


And than it became one of the most bipedal fire starters to ever bipedal, and it's just ugly. I feel sorry for Litten and really regret ever evolving Torracat in my Ultra play through

sniff
What's that?
sniff sniff
It kinda smells like...
sniff sniff sniff
It kinda smells like someone who needs to STOP. BULLYING. MY BOY.

 

[Deleted member]

Than be startled, that thing was hated when first seen. People had so much hope for Litten to finally be a fire starter to stay on all fours.


And than it became one of the most bipedal fire starters to ever bipedal, and it's just ugly. I feel sorry for Litten and really regret ever evolving Torracat in my Ultra play through

Is that what you think?

 

[Darkraid]

I would say the same about Decidueye but everyone gave up on it.

I thought Decidueye is a better design then Incineroar anyway.

Anyways if Sakurai went with Lycanroc, which form?

No disrespect but i thought Lyranroc brings nothing new. It'll like vanilla ivysaur with no grass moves

 

[Idon]

I do wonder how they would handle Ken if he's really in.

Like, Ken and Ryu were basically palette swaps of each other at one point, but, that hasn't been the case for decades. They started to have small differences as soon as SFII and in later versions of that game they had even more differences from each other. The Ryu in Smash 4 has his entire SFIV moveset. A game that, by that point, had made Ryu and Ken diverge from each other quite a bit. Ryu has a ton of new normals Ken has never had in SF while Ken has his own set of normals that focus on kicking, which obviously, Ryu has never used. Even some specials moves that are completely unique to them, like Ryu's donkey kick (from SFIII, which also happens to be his forward smash) and Ken's wheel kick (well actually he only had this in CvS2, and it's technically Sean's move I guess.)

If Ken is really in, as an echo, I wonder if Sakurai would go the extra mile and replace all of Ryu's unique normals/specials with Ken's own. But, by that point, should he even be considered an echo anymore? I do feel like having Ken as a straight up clone of Ryu that only has aesthetic differences would be super weird. Especially since Smash Ryu has his entire kit from SFIV and Sakurai made it a big deal how he plays like he would in traditional fighting game. I can't see them not handling Ken with the same care, echo or not.

But who knows.

He might get new animations that have the same effective hitbox

but if I'm being realistic/pessmistic, I expect he'll just be Ryu with a blonde wig and fire on his dp.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, there were some who wanted him to stay quadripedal. And many that didn't.

Let's not pretend it was some significant hatebase when he's still a very popular starter to begin with, even in final form.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Even if Diddy still had his rapid tail jab, all they'd have to do is not allow Dixie to do it and increase damage on the normal jab to balance it out.

Or have her use her hair?

 

[Darkraid]

I think the pkmn rep is either Decidueye or Incineroar.

Which I am fine with both.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Incineroar is the 2nd best fire starter visually only behind Blaziken.

Blaziken > Incineroar > Charizard > Typhlosion > Infernape > Delphox > Emboar

 

[Momotsuki]

Incineroar is the 2nd best fire starter visually only behind Blaziken.

Blaziken > Incineroar > Charizard > Typhlosion > Infernape > Delphox > Emboar

...Emboar was always my favorite one.

 

[Noipoi]

Incineroar is the 2nd best fire starter visually only behind Blaziken.

Blaziken > Incineroar > Charizard > Typhlosion > Infernape > Delphox > Emboar

Yeah Emboar is the absolute worst.
Though personally i'd switch Charizard and Blaziken, but that's just me.

...Emboar was always my favorite one.

And that's okay!

 

[NintenRob]

Is that what you think?

I've never really cared much if the fire starter stood on 4 or 2 legs but I do think it's ugly and would have benefited in going in pretty much any other direction

 

[Sephazon]

My top Pokémon for future Super Smash Bros. roster inclusion from each generation (including Pokémon who have yet to be shown as Pokéball summons):

Spoiler

1st Generation: Gengar

2nd Generation: Heracross

3rd Generation: Sceptile

4th Generation: Gallade

5th Generation: Zoroark

6th Generation: Hawlucha

7th Generation: Salazzle

 

[DarkFalcon]

...Emboar was always my favorite one.

Don't worry. I don't think any of the fire starters are terrible but Emboar does the least for me by far.

Yeah Emboar is the absolute worst.
Though personally i'd switch Charizard and Blaziken, but that's just me.

I like Charizard but I personally feel he's a bit overrated.

I could actually swap Charizard, Typhlosion and Infernape's spots depending on my mood lol.

 

[Noipoi]

I've never really cared much if the fire starter stood on 4 or 2 legs but I do think it's ugly and would have benefited in going in pretty much any other direction

I'm waiting for it GoldenYuiitusin...

 

[CosmicQuark]

The reason why I liked Lycanroc, same with Buzzwole, is elemental variety (EDIT: Pichu and Greninja are grandfathered in). With Pokemon Trainer, none of the grass/water/fire types interest me, and they're the ones being talked about the most. It's also why I don't consider a Gen 7 Pokemon a lock, as veterans are treated like newcomers, and so Pokemon Trainer fits that niche in a limited roster. But I'm a Gen 1-2 guy, so with my lack of knowledge of recent Gens I defer to the fans.

 

[RandomAce]

You've been super anti-Incineroar and pro-Lycanroc since Day 1. Hell, I remember you specifically REFUSED to do an Incineroar video just because you personally felt it offered nothing for Smash, even going as far as making a video for Delphox instead. DELPHOX.
So you're obviously biased here and CLEARLY trying to discredit any notion of Incineroar showing up on Ash's team and being in Smash.

Am I biased for Incineroar? Yes. But at least I admit my own biases. And even disregarding my own bias towards Incineroar, there's still the fact that:

a. There's an ongoing rivalry/mentorship relationship present between Masked Royal's Incineroar and Torracat. That's how he evolved in the first place, and it still wasn't enough to make a win unlike usual cases where "Oh, Ash's Pokémon evolved, now it's going to win the battle". That trend was outright denied. And left with a "to be continued" seeing as we still see interactions between Incineroar and Torracat even after the initial episode.
They are setting up this development arc to end with Tiger vs. Tiger in classic Tiger Mask style where the "heroic" Tiger (Ash's) wins against the opposing Tiger.

b. Litten is consistently the member of the team with the most character development. You want to point out that Torracat "hasn't done much since evolving", yet you ignore that Litten's the only one with a real backstory and character arc. And is currently going through another arc as I pointed out in the previous point, though this one takes a back seat to the main plot. Could they be doing more with Torracat in the meantime? Yeah. But to argue there's no character arc present is wrong.

c. Torracat really doesn't have to do THAT much before evolving a second time if Steene is anything to go by. So to act as though "why do people think it's definitely going to evolve, they're so ****ing stupid because it's not doing anything worthwhile" is outrageous.

d. Lycanroc has never been established to be the ace, and the fact you think it already had shows the bias at work here. Yeah, it evolved early? They were promoting for Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon... It's used in battles a lot? Well no ****, it's the only member of the team that's fully evolved because it peaked real early (which aces NEVER DO). Of COURSE it'd be used more in battle. The mural? Not even of Ash's Lycanroc. You of all people should recognize a Midday Lycanroc when you see one.

e. Even ignoring the anime, there's also the I Choose You! film, representing the 20th Anniversary. You know which Pokémon was used as the antagonist's main Pokémon? Incineroar. Yeah, he had a Lycanroc too, but it was a Midnight and was just "there" (though admittedly less "just there" than Sorrel's Lucario) while Incineroar directly drove the plot for a good bit as an obstacle to overcome and forcing Ash through some character development.


Look, I get it. You're passionate about Lycanroc almost as much as I am about Incineroar.
But when you start ****ting on the latter while trying to overpraise the former, or worse, ****ting on the latter TO praise the former, you're overstepping your boundaries.
Especially when you've made such a bias against Incineroar clear in the past and are currently using that bias to speak slander just because people aren't worshiping the wolf god you are.

You know that last part was a little tough to read (figuratively).

Jeezus Christ that was a blow. I guess anger can really do something. Though it wasn’t directed at me in the slightlest, you make a lot of valid points. Torrocat is likely to evolve, but I don’t think it would over take on or the other, or not what it seems right now at least. Just more or less have both of them on the same level since they both seem to have been pushed a lot by by Game Freak.

I’m willing to accept the fact that both are likely, and have at least some potential to boost, it’s just a matter of who.

I’m curious though, what are your thoughts on this in relation to Verg?

Although I do believe Vergeben’s initial statement is correct and he legitimately had info.

However, it’s obvious Vergeben isn’t certain on whoever the Gen 7 newcomer is (or any for that matter). Some insiders say it might be Incineroar, some don’t.

With all of this leak security going around, they either A) have information to trip them up and why they’re being careful, and B) There might’be been changes made to who the Pokémon newcomer is.

I’m inching towards the latter, but after seeing the Chrom situation with how he was checked but soon switched over to Robin, it might be possible something like that can happen here too, albeit slightly less likely.

 

[Deleted member]

I've-

totally didn't just set you up for a meme based on The Rock

 

[Noipoi]

View attachment 159679

totally didn't just set you up for a meme based on The Rock

I knew it was coming yet it was still hilarious.

 

[Pakky]

Than be startled, that thing was hated when first seen. People had so much hope for Litten to finally be a fire starter to stay on all fours.

And that's why those people make... 'uninspired' Fakemon...


Let me level with you for a hot sec.

in 20 years they have made only one GOOD quadruped starter.

Now by 'good', I mean good on all accounts.


- Good design

- Good stats

- Good movepool

- Good abilities

- Good typing.

Every other one has failed in one of these either subjectively to some or objectively just in general when looking at the numbers.

The one I'm talking about is Venasaur.



Funnily enough Incenaroar kinda IS the best starter this gen

-Good design (Do your research unlike those who make said Fakemon)

- GOOD STATS

- GOOD MOVEPOOL

- Common hidden ability but its the only one out of the three that will NEVER be bad.

-Pretty decent typing.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Instead of trying to rank which fire starter is good

Just choose the water starters

 

[Noipoi]

My top Pokémon for future Super Smash Bros. roster inclusion from each generation (including Pokémon who have yet to be shown as Pokéball summons):

Spoiler

1st Generation: Gengar

2nd Generation: Heracross

3rd Generation: Sceptile

4th Generation: Gallade

5th Generation: Zoroark

6th Generation: Hawlucha

7th Generation: Salazzle

Salazzle's a bit of an out there choice, but it could have a very interesting moveset.

Instead of trying to rank which fire starter is good

Just choose the water starters

I'm more of a grass type guy, myself.
Though I don't stick to one type.
I chose Charizard in gen 1.
Typhlosion in gen 2.
Swampert in gen 3.
Torterra in gen 4.
Samurott in gen 5.
Chesnaught in gen 6.
and Incineroar in gen 7.
I'm probably gonna pick the grass starter next year, just because I want to.

 

[NintenRob]

The reason why I liked Lycanroc, same with Buzzwole, is elemental variety. With Pokemon Trainer, none of the grass/water/fire types interest me, and they're the ones being talked about the most. It's also why I don't consider a Gen 7 Pokemon a lock, as veterans are treated like newcomers, and so Pokemon Trainer fits that niche in a limited roster. But I'm a Gen 1-2 guy, so with my lack of knowledge of recent Gens I defer to the fans.

I'm a bit the same, it's kinda why I stopped thinking Decidueye after Pkmn Trainer, I'd still like it, but with four starters already in the game, I think priorities should go elsewhere.

Lycanroc would be nice because it would be the first rock type. But thinking about it we only have 6 types left to represent and we already have some duplication.


Tapu Koko while another electric type, aside from the pika bros, we don't actually have many electric users in Smash, the only other one that really comes to mind as coming close is Zero Suit Samus


And Jigglypuff doesn't really use it's second type

Spoiler

Also I think I hate Incineroar more than ever now, god I hate wrestling and most things associated with it. And while Rock is alright actor, I'm kinda sick of seeing him in pretty much everything

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Honestly, it was ongoing slope of arguements against Decidueye over the past months that made many lose hope, Verge was just the tipping point.

Though, I usually had Incineroar as one of the most likeliest ones to get added, since he does have a lot going for him, that I’m going to admit (and that I also like Incineroar in SM wanted to get one), but Idk why it took until now for people to seriously start talking about him.

Pokken. That's literally why.

A lot of discussion in these threads sheep off of each other, but, the two serious contenders should have always been Incineroar and Decidueye (with Lycanroc following a slight third) - People instantly took him being in Pokken though as a "Well, if he's in Pokken, he must be in Smash, right?!" when, of the Pokemon in Smash, only half of them are on the Pokken Roster (Pikachu, Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, arguably Blastoise b/c Squirtle). One of my friends even tried to shut that down when I brought up the Verge discussions by claiming "Ultra beasts!" but TPC helps pick a character by who's going to be their marketing slave; not who's going to be well for the games.

Also b/c most people leave movesets out of these discussions. There's really only one other character, bar Incineroar, that could have been given a wrestling moveset. That's Travis Touchdown - and that isn't even a Nintendo character, among other things.

edit: Someone also brought up the removal of the Pokemon Trainer and yeah... him being back kinda messes with things too.

 

[Pakky]

Instead of trying to rank which fire starter is good

Just choose the water starters

...No

Cuz you get blue balled in gens 5 and 7.

 

[DevaAshera]

Or have her use her hair?

Give her Falco's rapid ender, only spinning her hair instead of arm/wing.

...No

Cuz you get blue balled in gens 5 and 7.

Don'tchu diss my Primarina, she beautiful.