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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Misery Brick

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we desperately need actual new info
We got info about two weeks ago, which consisted as a pretty heavy news drop including the stage count, ATs, music, modes, and five new characters. I don't think we're starving for any new information, it's just speculation is just still going on it's roundabout course like it always does and it always has.
Speaking of which, why are we still entertaining that leak when we're so dismissive of others? It's literally in the same echelon of the rest.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
People are still talking about the Gardevoir leak?

Let me spell it out:

IT. IS. FAKE.

IT IS AS REAL AS ANY OTHER 4CHAN LEAK, WHICH IS FAKE.

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

This has been a Public Service Announcement.
But my dad is 4chan and works for Sakurai's desk and he said it was real!
 

MBRedboy31

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No, but to be fair, the animations all use the dresses. That'd require a ton of work to do. Though I will say it would be a good excuse to make another character playable using Zelda's skeleton as a base(without the dress), heh.
Actually, the female Wireframes and blue Alloys use Zelda’s moveset but without a dress, which shows that Zelda’s (not Peach’s) animations work fine without a dress. (What if we got a mode where we can play as the multi man teams? It’d be a mode where everyone gangs up on the one player using a normal character, although of course the multi man characters are severely handicapped.)
 

Megadoomer

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boy do i hope everyone is wrong about only ten more characters including echoes being in the game
Well, we only have a little over three months until the game comes out. Unless the game gets delayed, there's not a great deal of time to reveal all of the characters before the game is released.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Actually, the female Wireframes and blue Alloys use Zelda’s moveset but without a dress, which shows that Zelda’s (not Peach’s) animations work fine without a dress. (What if we got a mode where we can play as the multi man teams? It’d be a mode where everyone gangs up on the one player using a normal character, although of course the multi man characters are severely handicapped.)
They aren't echoes either. So it still required a ton of work to remake all those animations. Which was the point. Sharing the same base character skeleton isn't enough in itself. There's more work to do when you have to redo a ton of animations. Of course, being they actually share the same skeleton, it's not as hard as making a newcomer or anything like that, but it still is not as easy to remake all animations that would use Zelda's dress. You might also notice how there's way less Fighting [Corps] Teams since Smash 64. All of them use Zelda for at least one character. Notice the lack of other ones? There's a reason for that. It's because the Female Wireframe and the similar Alloy take more time than the regular Smash 64 Fighting Polygon Team, who took way less time due to not having to redo any animations. All the animations are the same, they just don't have the same aesthetics.

Echoes aren't given that much work compared to regular clones. That's the point, to be easier to create clone variations. There's more effort than Smash 4, and for understandable reasons, but completely redoing all the dress animations is a very big deal.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Speaking of dresses and legs.

Am I the only one slightly disappointed we still haven’t had Peach and Zelda alts with pants/without dresses.

Especially since they have modeled legs? (Not counting Smash 4 since they were mostly cover by black voids)
For Peach it's because she uses her butt and the dress and hitboxes mesh easier like that iirc, it's easier to show what does damage. It's a visual indicator to help players recognize attacks and animations
 

Astroworld

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Man I wish we could get like 6 new Capcom reps. They have such a good library of games. Dante, Chun Li, Amaterasu, Viewtiful Joe, Zero, Chris Redfield. Id love any of them in Smash
 

Opossum

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Because he or the set designer liked the look of them? I'm not saying it's out of the question that they could be hints--but it's really stretching. It reminds me of the discussion on analyzing literature--An English teacher goes at lengths about why the author made the curtains green, what it symbolizes and what it says about the character. Whereas the author just liked green curtains.
I never liked that joke, honestly, as if anything, it makes the author in question look like a total amateur. If there wasn't a meaning behind the color of the curtains, any author worth their salt wouldn't mention the color, since it's otherwise an entirely superfluous detail that makes it look like they had to stretch their work to fit a word count quota.

I imagine the same would go for set design. You don't just haphazardly throw a set together.
 
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Rockaphin

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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.

For me, it would be:

(1st party Newcomers)
1. Skull Kid
2. Pheramosa/Buzzwole (working as a duo that switch out similarly to how Pokemon Trainer switches out Pokemon)
3. Hades
4. Magikoopa/Kamek (I grew up with him named Magikoopa, so I just put both names)

(3rd Party Newcomer)
5. Neku Sakuraba (would be a great, blindsided SE rep for the community lol)

(Echoes)
6. Dry Bowser (For Bowser....obviously lol)
7. Medusa (For Palutena; switch out some moves for Palutena's old customs as the data is still available and only aesthetic change would be needed)
Yeah I'm late but:

1st. Party Newcomers:
1. Paper Mario
2. Skull Kid
3. Bandana Dee
4. Decidueye

3rd Party Newcomer:
5. Geno Ryu Hayabusa(M. Bison if Ryu is considered highly requested.)

Echo Fighters:
6. Ken Masters (Ryu)
7. Metal Sonic (Sonic)
 

MBRedboy31

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They aren't echoes either. So it still required a ton of work to remake all those animations. Which was the point. Sharing the same base character skeleton isn't enough in itself. There's more work to do when you have to redo a ton of animations. Of course, being they actually share the same skeleton, it's not as hard as making a newcomer or anything like that, but it still is not as easy to remake all animations that would use Zelda's dress. You might also notice how there's way less Fighting [Corps] Teams since Smash 64. All of them use Zelda for at least one character. Notice the lack of other ones? There's a reason for that. It's because the Female Wireframe and the similar Alloy take more time than the regular Smash 64 Fighting Polygon Team, who took way less time due to not having to redo any animations. All the animations are the same, they just don't have the same aesthetics.

Echoes aren't given that much work compared to regular clones. That's the point, to be easier to create clone variations. There's more effort than Smash 4, and for understandable reasons, but completely redoing all the dress animations is a very big deal.
What animations exactly are different between Zelda and the Wireframes and Alloys? Give me some specifics, here. It is true that there are tweaked hitbox properties, but, to remove the dress, isn’t it as simple as just removing all of the polygons attached to the dress bones and thus allowing the dress bones to exist but without anything visible attached to them?

Also, things like Wireframes and especially Alloys have more complicated visuals than the Polygons do, resulting in more necessary modeling work. On top of that, loading times are an issue in games past 64 that necessitate fewer unique characters (the N64 cartridges had almost instantaneous loading times.)
 

Will

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People are still talking about the Gardevoir leak?

Let me spell it out:

IT. IS. FAKE.

IT IS AS REAL AS ANY OTHER 4CHAN LEAK, WHICH IS FAKE.

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

This has been a Public Service Announcement.
N-NO!!! I WANT IT TO BE TRUE SO IT HAS TO BE TRUE!!
THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING I'M SHAKING I'M
AAAAAAAA

IF I BLOCK YOU THEN IT CAN'T BE WRONG

I prefer the Fighting Polygon Team...
Fighting Alloys are the best Fighting Team
Bruh just add all of them depending on which game they came from what could go wrong
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.

For me, it would be:

(1st party Newcomers)
1. Skull Kid
2. Pheramosa/Buzzwole (working as a duo that switch out similarly to how Pokemon Trainer switches out Pokemon)
3. Hades
4. Magikoopa/Kamek (I grew up with him named Magikoopa, so I just put both names)

(3rd Party Newcomer)
5. Neku Sakuraba (would be a great, blindsided SE rep for the community lol)

(Echoes)
6. Dry Bowser (For Bowser....obviously lol)
7. Medusa (For Palutena; switch out some moves for Palutena's old customs as the data is still available and only aesthetic change would be needed)
I took too long, but I'd like to reply too~

1st Party:
1. Elma
2. Medusa
3. Gardevoir
4. Tingle

3rd Party:
5. Brian(Quest 64)

Echoes:
6. Shadow(For Sonic)
7. Ken(for Ryu)

Became difficult for 1st parties, really. Elma was the hard pick, but the rest I legit like. Gardevoir isn't as awesome as Genesect, but I honestly love the design and it is clearly capable of a fun moveset too. A bit easier for me to imagine, so... plus, Gen 3 is my fav.
 

Will

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I took too long, but I'd like to reply too~

1st Party:
1. Elma
2. Medusa
3. Gardevoir
4. Tingle

3rd Party:
5. Brian(Quest 64)

Echoes:
6. Shadow(For Sonic)
7. Ken(for Ryu)

Became difficult for 1st parties, really. Elma was the hard pick, but the rest I legit like. Gardevoir isn't as awesome as Genesect, but I honestly love the design and it is clearly capable of a fun moveset too. A bit easier for me to imagine, so... plus, Gen 3 is my fav.
Brian's a third party?
 

Starbound

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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.
Newcomers:
1. Paper Mario
2. Incineroar
3. Mythra
4. Azura

Third Party: Tails

Echoes:
1. Celica (of Robin)
2. Spheal (of Jigglypuff)
 

Luminario

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Your guess is as good as mine
Gardevoir's not just a kicker, but has a completely different dress design. It fully has a cut-out opening. It doesn't flow remotely the same way that Gothitelle does at all.

Gardevoir moves like a dancer, not a completely restricted Zelda. They're severely different Pokemon animation-wise. Gothitelle has a completely different animation set bar, say, using Dark Pulse. You also missed my edit. Where are these pictures that prove Gothitelle has legs? Those are a requirement for same to share the same basic skeletons. They otherwise are very very different bar the top half, which is kind of similar.
Ah sorry about that:
gothitelle legs.PNG
It's kinda hard to tell how far up they go but... they're there.

I don't expect Gardevoir and Gothitelle to share the same dress physics, just that their bodies do at least somewhat match up enough for being an echo to work. Also isn't Gardevoir designed to look more like a ballroom dancer? I can see it using the same general aesthetic as Rosalina's elegant moves, something Gothitelle can copy.
People are still talking about the Gardevoir leak?

Let me spell it out:

IT. IS. FAKE.

IT IS AS REAL AS ANY OTHER 4CHAN LEAK, WHICH IS FAKE.

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

This has been a Public Service Announcement.
Okay? Then don't respond to us. Let us discuss the fake leak in peace.
 

CaptainAmerica

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If 103 isn't the final count (I'm not trying to start the debate of whether it is or not.) what NEW stages would you want to see? I'd personally love to see a Wedding Hall stage from Mario Odyssey!
Bowser needs a castle, full stop.

I'd also like to see a Rainbow Road touring stage. My favorite would be the N64 Rainbow Road as seen in MK8DX. Also we should have Pac-Maze in sore fashion, just scrap the mechanic if it's that difficult but Maze is the iconic one, not Land.

And since it's me, I want Dovahkiin to come with a gorgeous Skyrim stage.
 

Zinith

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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.

For me, it would be:

(1st party Newcomers)
1. Skull Kid
2. Pheramosa/Buzzwole (working as a duo that switch out similarly to how Pokemon Trainer switches out Pokemon)
3. Hades
4. Magikoopa/Kamek (I grew up with him named Magikoopa, so I just put both names)

(3rd Party Newcomer)
5. Neku Sakuraba (would be a great, blindsided SE rep for the community lol)

(Echoes)
6. Dry Bowser (For Bowser....obviously lol)
7. Medusa (For Palutena; switch out some moves for Palutena's old customs as the data is still available and only aesthetic change would be needed)
I always miss these things

1st Party Newcomers:
1. Elma
2. Skull Kid
3. Poochy
4. Sceptile

3rd Party Newcomer
5. Zero (Mega Man) (I would've gone with Crash, but he's kind of highly requested)

Echoes
6. BOSHI!!!!!!!!!!!!
7. Shadow
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Speaking of dresses and legs.

Am I the only one slightly disappointed we still haven’t had Peach and Zelda alts with pants/without dresses.

Especially since they have modeled legs? (Not counting Smash 4 since they were mostly cover by black voids)
Not personally. Part of the appeal of Zelda to me his her dress.
 

Will

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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.

For me, it would be:

(1st party Newcomers)
1. Skull Kid
2. Pheramosa/Buzzwole (working as a duo that switch out similarly to how Pokemon Trainer switches out Pokemon)
3. Hades
4. Magikoopa/Kamek (I grew up with him named Magikoopa, so I just put both names)

(3rd Party Newcomer)
5. Neku Sakuraba (would be a great, blindsided SE rep for the community lol)

(Echoes)
6. Dry Bowser (For Bowser....obviously lol)
7. Medusa (For Palutena; switch out some moves for Palutena's old customs as the data is still available and only aesthetic change would be needed)
guess i'm a sellout

1ST PARTY:
1. Captain Rainbow
2. Mach Rider
3. Buzzwole
4. Super Macho Man

3RD PARTY:
Fulgore

ECHOES:
1. Black Shadow :ultfalcon:
2. Giygas :ultmewtwo:
 
Last edited:

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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My favourite type of fake leaks are ones that are so absurd they can't be debunked so they NEVER go away.
 

Astroworld

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Messages
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Hate to distract from the current debate, but I'm a bit bored and just thought I'd get people's opinions....or in more common board terms...Play a Game.
I just want to see what people would choose given the following restrictions: 4 first-party Newcomers, 1 third-party newcomer that HASN'T been highly requested yet (Geno, Shadow, Bajo-Kazooie), 2 Echoes for already confirmed characters.

For me, it would be:

(1st party Newcomers)
1. Skull Kid
2. Pheramosa/Buzzwole (working as a duo that switch out similarly to how Pokemon Trainer switches out Pokemon)
3. Hades
4. Magikoopa/Kamek (I grew up with him named Magikoopa, so I just put both names)

(3rd Party Newcomer)
5. Neku Sakuraba (would be a great, blindsided SE rep for the community lol)

(Echoes)
6. Dry Bowser (For Bowser....obviously lol)
7. Medusa (For Palutena; switch out some moves for Palutena's old customs as the data is still available and only aesthetic change would be needed)
First Party:

1. Zant
2. Rex/Pyra
3. Viridi
4. Black Shadow

Third Party:

1. Kiryu Kazuma from Yakuza

Echoes:

1. Dixie Kong
2. Ninten
 

Cutie Gwen

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Huh?

UBISOFT YOU SLY ****
It's not even Ubisoft but Suda51 right?
Ah sorry about that:
It's kinda hard to tell how far up they go but... they're there.

I don't expect Gardevoir and Gothitelle to share the same dress physics, just that their bodies do at least somewhat match up enough for being an echo to work. Also isn't Gardevoir designed to look more like a ballroom dancer? I can see it using the same general aesthetic as Rosalina's elegant moves, something Gothitelle can copy.

Okay? Then don't respond to us. Let us discuss the fake leak in peace.
But what's the point in talking about it then
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What animations exactly are different between Zelda and the Wireframes and Alloys? Give me some specifics, here. It is true that there are tweaked hitbox properties, but, to remove the dress, isn’t it as simple as just removing all of the polygons attached to the dress bones and thus allowing the dress bones to exist but without anything visible attached to them?

Also, things like Wireframes and especially Alloys have more complicated visuals than the Polygons do, resulting in more necessary modeling work. On top of that, loading times are an issue in games past 64 that necessitate fewer unique characters (the N64 cartridges had almost instantaneous loading times.)
The dresses. Them being there or not there is a huge animation difference. You have to have the kicks etc. without the dress being there, which is part of the animation in itself. I did kind of specify that earlier, but I think I was still too vague. The models nor skeletons are heavily different beyond Zelda's dress being removed, requiring them to reanimate every single move that would normally be part of her dress(like I said, every single kick. But if you want a straight example, Lightning Kick). Those are also not very complicated visuals even then. They're just new models, but otherwise, share the same basic animations without the aesthetics. They require somewhat more work than the Polygons, but not that much.

Brian's a third party?
Owned and created by Imagineer, yep.

Ah sorry about that:
It's kinda hard to tell how far up they go but... they're there.

I don't expect Gardevoir and Gothitelle to share the same dress physics, just that their bodies do at least somewhat match up enough for being an echo to work. Also isn't Gardevoir designed to look more like a ballroom dancer? I can see it using the same general aesthetic as Rosalina's elegant moves, something Gothitelle can copy.
That's almost the same as in the anime. Gardevoir's legs are severely longer. Also, thank you for spoilering that considering the nature of the image, heh.

Yep, definitely a different size. That said, its legs are often ignored during animations like it floating around to simplify things. It's present in even Sun and Moon where its running animation is more like floating like a ghost. Weird.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...on-XY-1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160706063531 Ugh, I hate when the site won't properly show images. Here's a link.
 
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CrusherMania1592

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I will say one thing about the weird Gothitelle leak; him making up a dumb story as is when they have a different source for the information just to protect the source is not beyond unbelievable.

I don't really believe the leak, not just because of the dumb story, but because Gothitelle's own design makes it impossible for her to be an Echo of Gardevoir. On the surface they look similar, but their models are wayyyyyyyy different. Simply put, Gardevoir actually could be a clone/echo of Zelda and it'd fit better in comparison. As they both have similar models but more important, actual legs. Gothitelle doesn't have legs, just feet.
That was my first thought upon the idea of Garvedoir being playable. Her and Zeldafocus on ranged and magic attacks so it’s easy to do. But what exactly would be Garvedoir’s specials?
 

DevaAshera

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To be quite honest, I could see Sakurai fudging some things to make Gothitelle work as a Gardevoir echo. Gardevoir has a floaty walk that doesn't really spread her legs much, rarely if ever uses kicks, even in Pokkén, and certain animations or moves that won't work for Gothitelle could be changed.

That said, I wasn't aware of the stubby legs..thats so off putting..whoever came up with that should be fired lol
 

Noipoi

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I've returned from Nintendo World NY! Got some Pokemon plushes and a Splatoon art book, met some cool guys.
I hope I didn't miss anything, did I?
I think I already know the answer...
 
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Garteam

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I wouldn't really call K. Rool a grappler? He has one kind-of command grab, and even then its a side ability to a projectile. He's more of a zoning/control character than a full on grappler. Bowser also only really has one grappler move, and he doesn't really cover the archetype that well even with it. He's just kind of a big bruiser character, which doesn't translate to grappler.
You're kinda conflating the standard "grappler" and "wrestler" archetypes.

The "grappler" archetype in a standard fighting game is a character who is based around throws for his/her standard combos and mobility. In most standard fighting games, throws are a relatively minor part of a characters set, with most characters only having one grab a tool to counter blocks and occasionally start/continue a combo. This is what separates a grappler from the rest of the cast; throws are much, much more important for a grappler, having a variety of grabs that function as the character's main tools for approaching, controlling where their opponents are, and capitalizing on punishes and combos.

"Wrestlers" are a sub-trope of grapplers in Fighting games. These are characters that utilize moves seen in professional wrestling and European wrestling. They often have low mobility, high damage, a large frame, and much more super armour. Not every grappler is a wrestler (Android 16 in DBZ Fighters is a good example) but most wrestlers are generally grapplers.

Whether or not Smash has had a "grappler" before is a pretty difficult argument because how different throws are in Smash relative to other fighting games. Every character in Smash has at least 4 grabs, with at least one of those grabs being a fairly important part of a character's moveset. As such, some people may argue that EVERY character in Smash would qualify as a grappler, as they all have multiple grabs and their grabs are important to best utilizing each character. Likewise, some people would say there's no grapplers, as no characters have an emphasis on throws over their other attacks. As such, I decided not to bring up the grappler aspect of Incineroar as that would require a discussion over the role throws have in Smash relative to other fighters.

What I did argue was Incineroar being a wrestler archetype would not be unique, as Bowser and (to a much lesser extent) King K. Rool already encapsulate a lot of the tropes standard to these types of characters.
 

Will

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YES


Also pet peeve: I get why Black Shadow, but compared to most F-Zero characters, I find it boring. There's so many F-Zero Echo Fighter opportunities. Even James Mccloud would be a hilarious nod.
Sometimes the most boring option is the most likely. Well, Blood Falcon exists. As an alt. for Falcon.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That was my first thought upon the idea of Garvedoir being playable. Her and Zeldafocus on ranged and magic attacks so it’s easy to do. But what exactly would be Garvedoir’s specials?
I was more saying they literally worked well enough design-wise, but wasn't thinking about it beyond that, admittedly. Let's see... Teleport works fine for Farore's Wind, so no hitbox. Stored Power could be a purple recolor of Din's Fire(Will O' Wisp also exists). Gallade could show up in place of the Phantom Knight, though that'd require a decent amount of work to rerig the animation differences. Nayru's Love is the hard part. Sure, you could use Reflect with the same character animation and it'd act like the Reflectors for a short time, but this feels shoehorned in.

(Speaking of Reflect, that'd work well for Fulgore's personal move, which is basically a very quick variation of the Reflectors that Fox and Co. use).
 

vaanrose

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The dresses. Them being there or not there is a huge animation difference. You have to have the kicks etc. without the dress being there, which is part of the animation in itself. I did kind of specify that earlier, but I think I was still too vague. The models nor skeletons are heavily different beyond Zelda's dress being removed, requiring them to reanimate every single move that would normally be part of her dress(like I said, every single kick. But if you want a straight example, Lightning Kick). Those are also not very complicated visuals even then. They're just new models, but otherwise, share the same basic animations without the aesthetics. They require somewhat more work than the Polygons, but not that much.
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All the mods that put Peach and Zelda in pants/sports outfits/strikers gear or whatever always look really off to me because they're still standing and moving like they're wearing dresses. Just because you can put them in those outfits doesn't mean it'll look good.
 

Noipoi

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You're kinda conflating the standard "grappler" and "wrestler" archetypes.

The "grappler" archetype in a standard fighting game is a character who is based around throws for his/her standard combos and mobility. In most standard fighting games, throws are a relatively minor part of a characters set, with most characters only having one grab a tool to counter blocks and occasionally start/continue a combo. This is what separates a grappler from the rest of the cast; throws are much, much more important for a grappler, having a variety of grabs that function as the character's main tools for approaching, controlling where their opponents are, and capitalizing on punishes and combos.

"Wrestlers" are a sub-trope of grapplers in Fighting games. These are characters that utilize moves seen in professional wrestling and European wrestling. They often have low mobility, high damage, a large frame, and much more super armour. Not every grappler is a wrestler (Android 16 in DBZ Fighters is a good example) but most wrestlers are generally grapplers.

Whether or not Smash has had a "grappler" before is a pretty difficult argument because how different throws are in Smash relative to other fighting games. Every character in Smash has at least 4 grabs, with at least one of those grabs being a fairly important part of a character's moveset. As such, some people may argue that EVERY character in Smash would qualify as a grappler, as they all have multiple grabs and their grabs are important to best utilizing each character. Likewise, some people would say there's no grapplers, as no characters have an emphasis on throws over their other attacks. As such, I decided not to bring up the grappler aspect of Incineroar as that would require a discussion over the role throws have in Smash relative to other fighters.

What I did argue was Incineroar being a wrestler archetype would not be unique, as Bowser and (to a much lesser extent) King K. Rool already encapsulate a lot of the tropes standard to these types of characters.
Incineroar can't get in because Bowser and K Rool kinda do wrestling things even though they're not heel wrestlers and Incineroar would be totally different
Whatever you say bud.
 
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Bionichute

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(Speaking of Reflect, that'd work well for Fulgore's personal move, which is basically a very quick variation of the Reflectors that Fox and Co. use).
Does Fulgore have a reflect move in the original KI? I've only played the remake and I'm fairly certain he doesn't have one there.
 

RandomAce

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Incineroar can't get in because Bowser and K Rool kinda do wrestling things even though they're not heel wrestlers and Incineroar would be totally different
Whatever you say bud.
Woah buddy, calm down a little.

He’s trying to say that it would be a lot harder to make Incineroar stand out compared to other candidates since his moveset and playstyle (and even physique) would be a lot more reminiscent to other fighters than someone like Decidueye or Lycanroc, who have aspects that make them unique to all their own.
 
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