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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Astroworld

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Anyone else feel like the only reason certain characters aren’t echoes is because they’re veterans? Chrom seems more different from Roy than Young Link to Toon Link or Dr Mario to Mario.

I think Sakurai just didn’t want to make the old vets echoes and wanted to keep their numbers
 

Astroworld

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Oh I'm incredibly happy with this masterpiece of a roster.

If I got Paper Mario, I would be truly content. But for now, I'm absolutely satisfied and happy. This game is truly a gift, and if anyone's disappointed....what are you on???
I saw someone in another thread say they were considering not getting the game because they’re so disappointed in the roster

Yeah. I too want some of what he’s smoking
 

Sigran101

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So who here is super disappointed with the roster so far? I’m not, however since I was disappointed in 4’s, I can only imagine there must be many also upset with U’s roster.
I'm in the same boat as you. 4's roster did nothing for me besides mega Man. This one added Ridley, K Rool, and Dark Samus. All I need are Black Knight, Geno, and Ray, and every character I've ever wanted will be in. If Joker were DLC as well I might never buy another smash game. I know Ray has no chance, but even if none of my other wanted characters get in this roster is absolutely glorious.
 

Luigi The President

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Anyone else feel like the only reason certain characters aren’t echoes is because they’re veterans? Chrom seems more different from Roy than Young Link to Toon Link or Dr Mario to Mario.

I think Sakurai just didn’t want to make the old vets echoes and wanted to keep their numbers
I honestly think Echoes are just post Smash-4 clones. Nothing more then that at this point. So this makes total sense to me.
 

Will

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Anyone else feel like the only reason certain characters aren’t echoes is because they’re veterans? Chrom seems more different from Roy than Young Link to Toon Link or Dr Mario to Mario.

I think Sakurai just didn’t want to make the old vets echoes and wanted to keep their numbers
Why would Young Link be an Echo of Toon Link?
 

Will

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The black knight isn't on the stage in the back so yeah we're getting 8
>isn't on the stage
Well no ****, he was never there in the first place.

How many times do we gotta drill this in?
h o w m a n y t i m e s ?
 
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I saw someone in another thread say they were considering not getting the game because they’re so disappointed in the roster

Yeah. I too want some of what he’s smoking
How can it be even possible? Disappointed about some newcomers... ok but in the whole roster? Probably someone who didn't like any of the smash game's rosters! #everyDAMNoneishere

I guess being pissed at everything is threndy nowadays.
 
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Will

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Is he not really?
Unless the Black Knight has a Mandela effect that made people think his name was Red Knight, no.

Gonna call my boy Idon Idon for this as well because both him and I have sunk this claim so many times it's like a chore
 
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NessSaysOkay

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I mean,
So who here is super disappointed with the roster so far? I’m not, however since I was disappointed in 4’s, I can only imagine there must be many also upset with U’s roster.
I sure ain't, I will admit none of the newcomers have been more then "Oh cool" or "Nice, people sure will be happy" for me personally but those are good enough for me. Any of my top 5 would make me VERY happy, but if I get number 1? I'd flip. I know in a game with Ridley K.Rool, a very likely Geno my most hyped being a Rhythm Heaven rep is weird but eh. I think IF we do get ANY surprise char it will be them, but with all the popular picks there's a chance there may not be a "surprise char" per say. Who knows.
 
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HyruleHero

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Imma bet people would be pissed if Fire Emblem got 8 reps in Smash Ultimate (matching with Mario, and eventually Zelda/Pokémon)
I wouldn't be pissed, I prefer more Fire Emblem characters than Mario. As much as Mario is a big name for Nintendo the side characters aren't really relevant i mean daisy's pushing it. Every fire emblem character is unique and important to a specific game, there is also a larger number of them so having a larger number of FE characters makes sense. Its the same with Pokemon they should have the most characters because they have bloody well 900 Pokemon to choose from, seems fair to at least have 9 Pokemon a hundredth of the number.
 

Lyndis_

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Unless the Black Knight has a Mandela effect that made people think his name was Red Knight, no.

Gonna call my boy Idon Idon for this as well because both him and I have sunk this claim so many times it's like a chore
He gets red/gold armor later.

I don't think he was on the stage, however the character that was on the stage was definitely intended to look like him from a distance.
 
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Will

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He gets red/gold armor later.

I don't think he was on the stage, however the character that was on the stage was definitely intended to look like him from a distance.
I know he gets a suit change, but let's compare here.
Untitled.png

That's definitely not the same red, nor is it the right cape.
Also, Brawl focused on PoR, not RD.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Castle_Siege\



So that's not him all the way in the back?
It's a General unit.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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I mean, I can. They’re in the game.

A Dark Samus with her own moveset, wouldn’t be.

Despite not having an entirely unique moveset, they are playable. It may not be the perfect representation of the character, but neither was an Assist Trophy.

The perceived value of clone characters compared to unique newcomers is entirely determined by the fans who play the game. I’m really not sure how else to say it. We could deal with hypotheticals of certain characters being different but the reality is that they weren’t planned that way.

It was either Dark Samus and Chrom as Echoes, or not in the game as playable at all.
Only reason clones have any significant Value is because of newcomers. No one would be that hype if Sakurai stated that every newcomer would be a clone of someone. This is where the core of echos come into play, and why they're not as valued as original fighters, and probably why Sakurai doesn't consider them "newcomers" and made that statement at e3 about expectations. They have value BECAUSE they are also mixed in with unique fighters. Sakurai said there's only a few more fighters left which implies for newcomers means around 3-5 IMO which makes competition for Isaac, SORA, Llyod, Pokémon, Geno, Banjo, Skull Lid, Surprise characters, Xenoblade, etc.. much more fierce.

Imagine if Banjo/Geno/ Sora/ Skull Kid etc. was just a clone. A lot of people would be upset.

Would fans be happy even if they were clones? Probably after Stockholm Syndrome kicks in. The perceived value for them and to outsiders (especially) would drop considerably vs if they were original and fresh. Not everyone likes having their wanted newcomers being an echo because there are instances where the character they're based off of is not enjoyable to play for them. I absolutely dislike the way Fox plays and will never play him but I extremely like Wolf. Imagine for me if Wolf was a echo of Fox; I wouldn't be that happy due to my favorite newcomer having a moveset/style that I cannot enjoy. You can make wanted speculation about the likelihood of a character getting in because of echolocation, however we saw Chrom being a 90% Roy clone when people thought he was going to be an Ike one. Dark Samus fans have valid criticisms for their character being Samus 2.0 when they had assets and animations in Smash 4 of her assis trophy. This is not to say that certain characters cannot be echos but to point out the bias of people being okay with echos. What if SORA/Banjo/Isaac/Elma/Geno/Lloyd were clones of other characters? Most would outright say it wouldn't make sense and be stupid. Why is it that people are okay with Dark Samus being Samus 2.0. Dark Samus also doesn't make sense since it plays nothing like Samus in her games. The only sense it makes is from an developer point of view of it having a similar proportions to Samus and thus being easy to implement regardless if it doesn't fit the character or her source material. Ganondorf in the past being an Falcon clone also didn't make sense considering all his source material he has but was added because of ease from a developer PoV. Would people still want Isaac if Sakurai stated he would be an echo character? Would people say that he wouldn't be Isaac anymore if he didn't have any source material in his moveset? Say hello to Ganondorf (maybe people are okay with him having a sword now????) say hello to Dark Samus who also fit that same valid complaint from their fans (at least l it's floaty looking). Is it worth the inclusion if it means they feel out of character with their source material? That is how Sakurai felt with Ridley; he didn't want to add a heavily requested fighter and not make him feel like Ridley which is the main reason why Sakurai said he would be extremely hard to implement (which he again pointed that out during the TreeHouse of having a very hard time.)

Any character could be an echo if they have similar proportions to a character already in Smash (hello to a lot of human/humanoid characters) from a practical point of view. People's bias on the character largely determines just how acceptable it is for a character to be a clone. You didn't hear not one K. Rool fan speculating or being okay with him potentially being an echo. Not everyone actually likes the style of the original character echo fighter is based off. Yeah you can tell me I should happy that my requested character is in, but what if my character happens to be based off of the character that I do not enjoy at all (Fox???). This is not me criticizing Sakurais choice because I understand how long it takes to make brand new stuff in the age of HD graphics and all the testing etc. This is me finding just how interesting it is for people to speculate on echos, the very concept of clone characters in vacuum (what if newcomers were all just clones? The perception does not look good), and just who could be an echo based off the said person respective bias.

I don't really have an opinion on clones as a whole, as I only seriously use characters that are good regardless if I have a connection with them. My only critique would be to keep clones exactly a 1:1 replica; that way you don't have instances where one is better than the other (Dark Samus being the biggest offender here). As always, campaign for your character to be apart of the DLC train so that they are top tier if you care about viability that is. It worked for Cloud, Bayonetta, Corrin, Ryu, and eventually Mewtwo :D
..............

I also find echolocation a fitting term
 
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Sigran101

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I'm super excited that Black Knight is even being discussed. I've wanted him since brawl and no one's ever even been willing to consider him until now from what I've seen.
 

Luigi The President

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I know he gets a suit change, but let's compare here.
View attachment 158936

That's definitely not the same red, nor is it the right cape.
Also, Brawl focused on PoR, not RD.


It's a General unit.
My question is why they would change it in the first place if it wasn't supposed to resemble BK?
Also, I'm watching PoR right now and haven't seen any general units resembling that model at all.
Hope this doesn't come across as doubting you; just confused on this subject, and also kinda want BK a good bit!
 

Pakky

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My question is why they would change it in the first place if it wasn't supposed to resemble BK?
Also, I'm watching PoR right now and haven't seen any general units resembling that model at all.
Hope this doesn't come across as doubting you; just confused on this subject, and also kinda want BK a good bit!
That's what confuses me, why the helm and why remove it?
 

Will

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I'm super excited that Black Knight is even being discussed. I've wanted him since brawl and no one's ever even been willing to consider him until now from what I've seen.
It's kind of a Black Shadow situation. He's not really thrown into relevancy until someone either points something out or someone rediscovers it. The Echoes trend is making heavy hitters.

My question is why they would change it in the first place if it wasn't supposed to resemble BK?
Also, I'm watching PoR right now and haven't seen any general units resembling that model at all.
Hope this doesn't come across as doubting you; just confused on this subject, and also kinda want BK a good bit!
I agree the sole thing in his favor is the helmet, as it could've been the only reference, but I doubt it confirms Black Knight as a character. Only because of one thing.
 
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DarkFalcon

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If it was never meant to be Black Knight it is weird to change it. I prefer this conversation to talking about pillows and chairs hinting at things though since it's directly an in game thing.
 
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ZephyrZ

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If you’re a real Uprising nerd...can Palutena cook and why has she not taught Pit how to read after 25+ years together?
Palutena failed pretty badly at cooking in that promotional short, but she is at least enthusiastic about cooking. Appearently pheonix eggs make divine omelets and the Forces of Nature are especially good when prepared with a hard cheeze.

As for Pit being unable to read...there's an explination for that? I completely one-hundred percented it but never heard that dialouge.
If palutena tries to cook, there will be results as terrifying as a vegetable monster.

Which in a world of eggplant wizards, is scary.

And because she doesn’t want him to read his contract.
Hey, I was supposed to answer that!
 

Lyndis_

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My question is why they would change it in the first place if it wasn't supposed to resemble BK?
Also, I'm watching PoR right now and haven't seen any general units resembling that model at all.
Hope this doesn't come across as doubting you; just confused on this subject, and also kinda want BK a good bit!
That's what I'm thinking. It looks more like Black Knight than it does any other unit, including the generals.

It seems like a mix between both suits, and the colour I think can be pointed to the lighting. The sprites for the other units in the area darken to that color facing towards the throne, so it would make sense for him to have the darkest color all the way in the back.

I'm pretty sure it was supposed to look like them, at least from a distance.
 

Luigi The President

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It's kind of a Black Shadow situation. He's not really thrown into relevancy until someone either points something out or someone rediscovers it. The Echoes trend is making heavy hitters.


I agree the sole thing in his favor is the helmet, but I doubt it confirms Black Knight as a character. Only because of one thing.
How does the Link model really relate in this case, though?

In his case, Toon Link was playable despite already being on a stage.
In BK's case, he's been completely removed from his own stage. How does this not point to him appearing in some other capacity?

He could be a boss, but that'd be a waste imo. And it also doesn't explain why Chrom is a Roy echo.

I'm super excited that Black Knight is even being discussed. I've wanted him since brawl and no one's ever even been willing to consider him until now from what I've seen.
SUCH an awesome character. I've lost my pride, because I really want him in! He's badass, the deepest villain Fire Emblem's got, a fan favorite, BADASS, amazing design, and, again, BADASSERY!
I don't want any Fire Emblem character after this guy...but I want this guy!
 

DarkFalcon

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I just want Black Knight solely for the response (he does look cool tho). Then after my initial laughter from the anger I'll get mad at people being mad and the cycle continues.
 

Arcanir

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I know he gets a suit change, but let's compare here.
View attachment 158936

That's definitely not the same red, nor is it the right cape.
Also, Brawl focused on PoR, not RD.


It's a General unit.
To be fair, the comparison is more around this design, which is his most iconic one and the one likely to be used in the hypothetical situation he's included:

 
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Godzillathewonderdog

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I don't think Black Knight would work well as an Ike echo, because echo fighters typically share the same stats, and it would be weird seeing this massive dude in really bulky armor being as mobile as Ike.
 

TMNTSSB4

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And he has a Mii costume, just saying.
Hasn’t saved everyone
Palutena failed pretty badly at cooking in that promotional short, but she is at least enthusiastic about cooking. Appearently pheonix eggs make divine omelets and the Forces of Nature are especially good when prepared with a hard cheeze.

As for Pit being unable to read...there's an explination for that? I completely one-hundred percented it but never heard that dialouge.
Hey, I was supposed to answer that!
I wouldn't be pissed, I prefer more Fire Emblem characters than Mario. As much as Mario is a big name for Nintendo the side characters aren't really relevant i mean daisy's pushing it. Every fire emblem character is unique and important to a specific game, there is also a larger number of them so having a larger number of FE characters makes sense. Its the same with Pokemon they should have the most characters because they have bloody well 900 Pokemon to choose from, seems fair to at least have 9 Pokemon a hundredth of the number.
One of the few who would like more FE characters...cool and rare
 

Will

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How does the Link model really relate in this case, though?

In his case, Toon Link was playable despite already being on a stage.
In BK's case, he's been completely removed from his own stage. How does this not point to him appearing in some other capacity?

He could be a boss, but that'd be a waste imo. And it also doesn't explain why Chrom is a Roy echo.
It's a reverse situation, I didn't expect you to really catch on. You know how Alfonzo takes place, right?
This is implying Black Knight is literally on that stage with Richter. Also the ****ing screencap on that footage is blurry as hell, I wish there's a better one someone can show me because wow that's just garbage potato .jpg quality

Zelgius being a boss isn't entirely impossible though, but if they wanted a Fire Emblem boss, him, Gharnef, or that guy from Binding Blade make for possible outcomes. Definitely possible.

I don't think Black Knight would work well as an Ike echo, because echo fighters typically share the same stats, and it would be weird seeing this massive dude in really bulky armor being as mobile as Ike.
He looks slow, but he's actually a pretty quick guy.
 

Roberk

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I don't think Black Knight would work well as an Ike echo, because echo fighters typically share the same stats, and it would be weird seeing this massive dude in really bulky armor being as mobile as Ike.
Ike is fast in his home games and Black Knight is about as fast as Ike. They were even trained by the same guy, so their shared fighting styles make sense for an Echo.
 
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Sigran101

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How does the Link model really relate in this case, though?

In his case, Toon Link was playable despite already being on a stage.
In BK's case, he's been completely removed from his own stage. How does this not point to him appearing in some other capacity?

He could be a boss, but that'd be a waste imo. And it also doesn't explain why Chrom is a Roy echo.


SUCH an awesome character. I've lost my pride, because I really want him in! He's badass, the deepest villain Fire Emblem's got, a fan favorite, BADASS, amazing design, and, again, BADASSERY!
I don't want any Fire Emblem character after this guy...but I want this guy!
My favorite moment in all of video games was in Radiant Dawn when he shows up out of nowhere in part 1. Like "holy **** I get to play as the Black Knight?" The most surprised and excited I've ever been at a game.
 

Metal Shop X

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I don't think Black Knight would work well as an Ike echo, because echo fighters typically share the same stats, and it would be weird seeing this massive dude in really bulky armor being as mobile as Ike.
If I remember right, the BK can move freely and quick with his armor on due to it being enchanted.
 

Luigi The President

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Ike's still got his Black Knight alt color? Oof, that's the sound of my heart breaking!

My favorite moment in all of video games was in Radiant Dawn when he shows up out of nowhere in part 1. Like "holy **** I get to play as the Black Knight?" The most surprised and excited I've ever been at a game.
Right now I'm watching a close friend play through PoR, and I've never been so hyped to see a character's house in my life. (BK's!)
 
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blackghost

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Anyone else just hopes Ultimate plays like a faster, less defensively-favored, more comboheavy version of Smash 4 at its heart? Because the first 2 I can already see but the free form combo vs DI + techchase gameplay of Smash is what makes me love Smash a lot.

It's the only point I'm only cautiously optimistic and not 100% hyped about. Characters, Stages, all these features look great already, I just hope that the combo gameplay isn't too over the top or exchange-jabs-for-4-minutes-a-stock levels. Not saying Smash 4 or Brawl is bad in that regard, I'm just a bit...Nervous? About the whole faster knockback thing that's been shown.

Also regarding the roster question: Not disappointed at all. Castlevania chars being in is great, but I'm usually fine with characters I liked previously playing well again. I'm that guy in Street Fighter who plays Ryu! ... And not much else. Smash's different in that regard, but as long as Marth or Ness feel good I'm completly content!
smash ultimate looks like it will have combos for sure. hopefully those combos come from normals and not mostly grabs.
 

Will

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Ike's still got his Black Knight alt color? Oof, that's the sound of my heart breaking!


Right now I'm watching a close friend play through PoR, and I've never been so hyped to see a character's house in my life. (BK's!)
Actually no, I don't think he does. But I don't see how the removal of it affects Black Knight's chances considering:

1. It doesn't confuse the two together unlike the Dark Samus alt.
2. Meta Ridley shows that there's a likelihood of the amount of alternate costumes increasing, meaning we haven't been shown the full list.
 
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