Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[XenoWarriorX]

I now 100% support Minecraft Steve.

#MicrosoftSteveForSmash

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Gonna throw this out there...again...when it comes to clones or echo fighters in this game.

The clone characters, or echo fighters, are out in the game because they are easy to add and can satisfy fans who otherwise would not have gotten that character. They wouldn’t have been high enough priority to be a completely unique fighter, and were only added because they were easy to make. That’s why they get in.

The #1 reason people hate clones is because they feel that that character is a “waste”, and there is a certain type of resentment toward those characters because...you guessed it...the community places a superior value on unique newcomers. It’s as if clones aren’t worth as much as a fully unique newcomer, or that it’s not just good enough that they’re in the game as a playable character in the first place.

Yes, clones buff the roster out. They have similar, if not the same, moveset s as the character they’re based on. But why does that make them less valuable? Why does a character that could be a little bit more different from the way they’re portrayed get viewed negatively when otherwise, they wouldn’t be in the game in the first place?

Those are your options. Ultimate might be different in that it seems like Echo Fighters have been planned since the beginning, but making any Echo a full on character makes a character who does not have the capability of being an echo that much harder to fit in.

Tl;dr clones shouldn’t be ******* about, they’re being used as a fan service tool to satisfy more people. They wouldn’t be in as unique fighters, unless you would have liked to trade one of the currently unique fighters we have already in their place.

 

[WolfCypher]

If Sylux is actually a major part of MP4 like everyone is expecting, I wouldn't mind if he was a DLC character.

Unless he's another Samus clone

I really need closure on Sylux. No sarcasm

 

[Deleted member]

People hating on clones in general makes me angry.

They are in. Be happy.

 

[Roberk]

We need Steve, CoD default, and Fortnite default to complete the unholy trinity of "characters from massively popular games that shouldn't be in Smash for the sake of being in Smash."

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

People only hate on clones when the character they want doesn't get in

 

[WolfCypher]

Gonna throw this out there...again...when it comes to clones or echo fighters in this game.

The clone characters, or echo fighters, are out in the game because they are easy to add and can satisfy fans who otherwise would not have gotten that character. They wouldn’t have been high enough priority to be a completely unique fighter, and were only added because they were easy to make. That’s why they get in.

The #1 reason people hate clones is because they feel that that character is a “waste”, and there is a certain type of resentment toward those characters because...you guessed it...the community places a superior value on unique newcomers. It’s as if clones aren’t worth as much as a fully unique newcomer, or that it’s not just good enough that they’re in the game as a playable character in the first place.

Yes, clones buff the roster out. They have similar, if not the same, moveset s as the character they’re based on. But why does that make them less valuable? Why does a character that could be a little bit more different from the way they’re portrayed get viewed negatively when otherwise, they wouldn’t be in the game in the first place?

Those are your options. Ultimate might be different in that it seems like Echo Fighters have been planned since the beginning, but making any Echo a full on character makes a character who does not have the capability of being an echo that much harder to fit in.

Tl;dr clones shouldn’t be ******* about, they’re being used as a fan service tool to satisfy more people. They wouldn’t be in as unique fighters, unless you would have liked to trade one of the currently unique fighters we have already in their place.

I don't hate clones, but I finally get why some (sooooome, not speaking for everyone) some people might be peeved over clones.

Like, I said this days ago, I'll make this quick, but by Brawl, I wanted Dark Samus. Problem is, I actually don't like Samus' playstyle in any of the Smash games, and hoped if DS ever got in, it/she would end up more like Wolf did with Fox, and not just be another Samus. So I'm inbetween a rock and a hard place.

I reeeeally want to play with this character due to my interest in it from the Prime games, yet it plays close enough to a character's style I've never liked, even though we could have attempted a Wolf/Lucas to Fox/Ness solution, so what the hell do I do? I get those people...

 

[Wambo]

Smash has hit it's peak.

To the person who gave me this idea, thank you.

This is the kind of **** they were talking about in Revelations.

If we get characters like Geno, Banjo and Isaac, people will say Sakurai has "Ballot bias". Which makes no sense because that's kinda the point of the ballot.

I don't even understand who could still be upset if Geno, Banjo and Isaac were the only reveals left. Even 4chan seems to be fine with the current roster, which is a shock.

 

[ChronoBound]

Though in my personal opinion, Dr. Mario, Falco, Wolf, Pichu (or Raichu), Roy, and Lucas would've almost certainly been echoes (or in the doc's case, a straight costume) had they been introduced today, and that kinda stings as a really big fan of Dark Samus.

Dark Samus is among the luckiest characters ever to make it into Smash Bros. given her/its circumstances. Most Metroid fans were clamoring for Ridley over the last ten years and much of the demand for Dark Samus dissipated a year or two after Other M's release. Heck, she was incredibly lucky to have made it in as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4 considering the Assist Trophy is the only piece of Prime trilogy content that was not a music track in Smash 4.

Here is what I wrote on just how lucky Dark Samus was to even make it at all:
Sakurai mentioned that both Chrom and Dark Samus were really popular choices, so your vote on the ballot certainly helped Dark Samus get in. I am glad she made it in. She was a critical actor for the Metroid series, particularly the Prime series. I find it fitting both Chrom and Dark Samus were confirmed together because both were characters whose time in the sun was over in the prospective series (Fates, Shadows of Valentia, and Three Houses all came after Awakening) and DS has been gone since 2007.

It goes into more than just that. If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).

Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."

The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.

Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.

Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.

As for Dr. Mario, he represents one of Nintendo's two biggest puzzle series (the other being Panel de Pon). Dr. Mario has had a game on nearly every Nintendo console (I think the only exception is the GBC if you count that separately). Dr. Mario is absolutely integral to Nintendo history particularly its puzzle game heritage (which unfortunately is very overlooked in Smash Bros.). Dr. Mario even received a new game in the interim between Smash 4 and Ultimate for the Nintendo 3DS.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

This is the kind of **** they were talking about in Revelations.

Smash will be the end of the world some day.

 

[Deleted member]

We need Steve, CoD default, and Fortnite default to complete the unholy trinity of "characters from massively popular games that shouldn't be in Smash for the sake of being in Smash."

Can we use John Wick or Thanos as our Fortnite rep instead?

 

[Idon]

They have similar, if not the same, moveset s as the character they’re based on. But why does that make them less valuable?

You honestly can't tell me that what is basically an alternate costume with different taunts and victory animations has even remotely the same value as a completely unique character with completely unique mechanics, movesets, music, personality, etc etc.
Clone =/= slot wasted is dumb and no one says it, but saying that a carbon copy of a character has just as much value as something entirely standalone is just stupid.

unless you would have liked to trade one of the currently unique fighters we have already in their place.

I actually would for ooooone character.

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Saber (Fate/stay night)

I guess visual novels are vidyagames.

Though dark thoughts linger as I want to make, you know who...

 

[Shroob]

Spoiler: Saber (Fate/stay night)

I guess visual novels are vidyagames.

Though dark thoughts linger as I want to make, you know who...

>Saber

Let's not and say we did.

 

[Wambo]

Smash will be the end of the world some day.

In the distant future, countless wars will be fought and gallons of blood will be spilled to ensure that Emperor Masahiro Sakurai includes Prince Fluff in the next Smash Bros.

 

[Will]

Did anything not happen in the period that I blacked out?

In the distant future, countless wars will be fought and gallons of blood will be spilled to ensure that Emperor Masahiro Sakurai includes Prince Fluff in the next Smash Bros.

we gotta complete the franchise bros

 

[XenoWarriorX]

In the distant future, countless wars will be fought and gallons of blood will be spilled to ensure that Emperor Masahiro Sakurai includes Prince Fluff in the next Smash Bros.

Smash Bros: A new dope.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm gonna be real with you about echo's/clones: Complain for different reasons. If you want to complain over bad clones, i.e., Pichu and Dark Pit being inferior from a gameplay perspective from their respective games? Go for it. If you want to complain that they "Stole a slot" or "Could have been unique" it's like... that's great but there's nothing to talk about.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I was going to make a joke about cats and dogs living together mass hysteria, but unless you count there is no cats in Smash

But there are plenty of dogs (related to dogs)

I guess the dogs scared all the cats away

 

[Pakky]

>Saber

Let's not and say we did.

Ya'know, and this is going to come out bad no matter how I type it.

I'm trying to stay... neutral when making these but you start to notice a "pattern" with certain characters.

Saber was fun with her little braids in the back, very cute.

Though, and this is my own fault, Virdi was a pain because I wanted to show off :/

 

[Shroob]

Ya'know, and this is going to come out bad no matter how I type it.

I'm trying to stay... neutral when making these but you start to notice a "pattern" with certain characters.

It's not even the fact that Saber leans more in the sense of 'anime', to me it's the fact that her original 2 games have hentai in them, lol

 

[RandomAce]

Spoiler: Saber (Fate/stay night)

I guess visual novels are vidyagames.

Though dark thoughts linger as I want to make, you know who...

Isn’t Saber an anime character?

I was going to make a joke about cats and dogs living together mass hysteria, but unless you count there is no cats in Smash

But there are plenty of dogs (related to dogs)

I guess the dogs scared all the cats away

There’s Incineroar. He can be the first cat fighter. He’s gonna scare all the dogs this time (unless Lycanroc gets in instead).

 

[Pakky]

It's not even the fact that Saber leans more in the sense of 'anime', to me it's the fact that her original 2 games have hentai in them, lol

True, but hey that's still a video game character. And well I did make Mr. Pants and now well, the other guy...

Isn’t Saber an anime character?

Nope visual novel which I think I'll mark as the 'end of the line' for me personally.

 

[Shroob]

Isn’t Saber an anime character?

Technically no. She comes from a visual novel... though said visual novel has hentai in it, which would be really........ehhhhhh

 

[DraginHikari]

Isn’t Saber an anime character?

I believe it started as a Visual Novel, it's technically a video game in the broadest possible sense.

 

[Noipoi]

I was going to make a joke about cats and dogs living together mass hysteria, but unless you count there is no cats in Smash

But there are plenty of dogs (related to dogs)

I guess the dogs scared all the cats away

Incineroar and Isabelle get in.

Is the theme of Smash Ultimate Dogs vs Cats???:thinkingemoji

 

[Ivander]

Isn’t Saber an anime character?

She started as a Visual Novel character. And Visual Novels are video games regardless.

 

[Will]

And Visual Novels are video games regardless.

Barely.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You honestly can't tell me that what is basically an alternate costume with different taunts and victory animations has even remotely the same value as a completely unique character with completely unique mechanics, movesets, music, personality, etc etc.
Clone =/= slot wasted is dumb and no one says it, but saying that a carbon copy of a character has just as much value as something entirely standalone is just stupid.


I actually would for ooooone character.

I mean, I can. They’re in the game.

A Dark Samus with her own moveset, wouldn’t be.

Despite not having an entirely unique moveset, they are playable. It may not be the perfect representation of the character, but neither was an Assist Trophy.

The perceived value of clone characters compared to unique newcomers is entirely determined by the fans who play the game. I’m really not sure how else to say it. We could deal with hypotheticals of certain characters being different but the reality is that they weren’t planned that way.

It was either Dark Samus and Chrom as Echoes, or not in the game as playable at all.

 

[Ivander]

Barely.

Hence the regardless.

 

[Nazyrus]

The perceived value of clone characters compared to unique newcomers is entirely determined by the fans who play the game.

True, I can already see Impa fans being happy that we got her even if she is an echo/clone. And yet we will see people who aren't fan of her complain about her being added. It's such a subjective situation.

 

[BlueMagician]

Fate got away from what little adults-only content it had, so I don't think it matters...

Anyway, Fate's probably the one of, if not the biggest series in Japan right now (games and otherwise), which I guess is part of why some people want to see Saber, but at the same time Fate fans are skittish about the idea of Fate getting anything in Smash.

 

[Pakky]

Hence the regardless.

Well I hope you like it.

 

[Will]

Fate got away from what little adults-only content it had, so I don't think it matters...

Anyway, Fate's probably the one of, if not the biggest series in Japan right now (games and otherwise), which I guess is part of why some people want to see Saber, but at the same time Fate fans are skittish about the idea of Fate getting anything in Smash.

Fate is understandable, because I know it's the king of gacha. Near impossible, but understandable. But Touhou?

 

[cothero]

People hating on clones in general makes me angry.

They are in. Be happy.

Not to mention that clones are even cooler than their original counterparts in some cases.

 

[Luminario]

None of these are "moves" though. They're just things that exist in AC. Think of it like this. Isaac has many moves to take from. If he was a clone of Marth or something it would be a huge disservice to his character. People would wonder where his psynergy moves are. If Isabelle was a villager echoe, would fans actually wonder where the public works projects are or where the extra held items are? No, she fits just fine as an echoe. Say there's one more unique character. If we make Isabelle a unique character then we can't also add Issac. However, we can add Issac and Isabelle both if we just make her an echoe.

You have a point and I hate that.
I still want a unique Isabelle though, I don't know about anyone else but I'd certainly notice the lost potential.

 

[DraginHikari]

Fate got away from what little adults-only content it had, so I don't think it matters...

Anyway, Fate's probably the one of, if not the biggest series in Japan right now (games and otherwise), which I guess is part of why some people want to see Saber, but at the same time Fate fans are skittish about the idea of Fate getting anything in Smash.

I would find the likelihood of visual novel content making it into Smash as kind of unlikely. Your right about Fate's popularity as even though I've never played or watched anything related to it even I recongize Saber. Though I have no doubt the smash team could make something like it work somehow. It would just be an extremely odd choice given the reputation of visual novels in most parts of the world mostly being recognized by the mostly by the Eroge genre. I think it's a wall that would be too high to get over.

 

[Idon]

Dark Samus is among the luckiest characters ever to make it into Smash Bros. given her/its circumstances. Most Metroid fans were clamoring for Ridley over the last ten years and much of the demand for Dark Samus dissipated a year or two after Other M's release. Heck, she was incredibly lucky to have made it in as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4 considering the Assist Trophy is the only piece of Prime trilogy content that was not a music track in Smash 4.

Here is what I wrote on just how lucky Dark Samus was to even make it at all:
Sakurai mentioned that both Chrom and Dark Samus were really popular choices, so your vote on the ballot certainly helped Dark Samus get in. I am glad she made it in. She was a critical actor for the Metroid series, particularly the Prime series. I find it fitting both Chrom and Dark Samus were confirmed together because both were characters whose time in the sun was over in the prospective series (Fates, Shadows of Valentia, and Three Houses all came after Awakening) and DS has been gone since 2007.

It goes into more than just that. If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).

Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."

The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.

Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.

Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.

Listen.
I get that Dark Samus, in the year of our lord, 2018, is not getting in completely unique and that her inclusion as a copy of Samus was lucky. Especially in a game with as small a development cycle as this and with such a focus on returning elements rather than groundbreaking new ones and I want to make it clear here:

I am grateful.​

However, I still feel that it is absolutely absurd that she, as a character, is less different than most other clones, especially when you can see all the effort put into her animations compared to even the clones created in Melee, which have been diverged even further in Ultimate.

Also, you can argue about his impact on Nintendo history all you want, but I'd say Mario Maker and Mario Odyssey are also massively popular and are regulated as alternate costumes, especially considering the only reason he even got back was due to being in Melee as a clone. You cannot seriously tell me that had any of the aforementioned characters been introduced with Ultimate's "echo fighter" characterization that any person would legitimately attempt to push them as even partially unique characters.

 

[Knight Dude]

Any other major NES era characters they could add?

For first party I think Mach Rider would be the coolest choice. But Excitebiker could do something similar, while sticking almost entirely to the bike. Balloon fighter might not offer too much, since Villager does his main thing, and unlike Little Mac, there's not an entire martial art to take inspiration from. If there's more that you guys think are interesting feel free to share.

"Major" Third party characters from the NES era would have Ryu Hayabusa(Ninja Gaiden), Arthur(Ghost n' Goblins), Spencer(Bionic Commando), Bill Rizer(Contra), Strider Hiryu and Billy/Jimmy(Double Dragon).

Out of those Hayabusa and Strider would characters I think could be cool.

I wouldn't mind skimming over other console eras too for cool potential fighters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fate is understandable, because I know it's the king of gacha. Near impossible, but understandable. But Touhou?
View attachment 158926

What about Touhou? Amazing Indie series and all.

I would love it to have Smash content too. Another great and popular one(though a bit niche, sadly. Well, outside of boorus...).