Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Thirdkoopa]

View attachment 158726

The last pages were deesgusting.

I'm going to call the police.

you could add something to the discussion.

I mean, this is honestly the most interesting discussion of BWD I’ve seen yet because it’s not a hive mind; it’s actually interesting and diverse opinions and discussion

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Pretend like you don't hate him. I would hate to see Dark Matter in Smash, but I could probably come up with a more neutral statement for him than you did with Bandana Dee.

I mean calling his weapon a toothpick wasn't charitable, but it's not really inaccurate either. I like Link a lot and I call his weapon in Zelda-2 (a game I like a lot) a butter knife because it's so tiny. Bandana Waddle Dee's "spear" is legitimately closer to a toothpick than an actual spear; it's a miniature version of what a real spear is. He actually can't do anything other than poke with it (or throw it I guess) assuming we discard things literally every character can do like run and jump so it's 100% accurate to list that as his only ability. That image was also actually his first google image result; his design is REALLY not anything more than that. I could have phrased it nicer, but the underlying fact is that this is really what's there in terms of the design.

I agree here, but I also want to ask you - What do you think about him compared to other Kirby characters that aren't in yet?

I would not include more Kirby characters at all. I think Kirby/Meta Knight/King Dedede do a very good job of fully handling that series on their own. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick someone though, I'd go with Ado. She's not really important, but man, that could be an awesome moveset.

Spoiler: Ado

Abilities: Attacks with paintbrush as blunt weapon, able to paint arbitrary objects, animals, and monsters and make them material and alive, known to own rollerskates.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I heard this as an argument against Cloud up until a few years ago.

I don't think its the same, cloud is an icon and represents a classic game that is still talked about to this day. I don't think it's fair to compare that to geno.
This also isn't an argument against geno, I would just like to understand the hype

 

[Idon]

I was just about to post that

But I know the arguement for those who go to smash wiki is that’s not black knight in the throne

But here’s the thing though in a distance we immediately assuming it’s black knight so why would they change the colors of a nobody that was assumed to be black knight?

Because you're reading far too much on the developer's intentions which are unknowable and thinking another face-lift of which we have had many for multiple stages means anything.

It was never Black Knight, and it still isn't Black Knight.
Nothing has changed.

 

[Noipoi]

I heard this as an argument against Cloud up until a few years ago.

But Cloud is a gaming icon, the most famous Final Fantasy character ever.
No hate on Geno, but he was a party member in one game 20 years ago. Most people don't know him.
I just wanna know why he's so hugely requested.

 

[Johnknight1]

Magolor is the only other kirby character to appear on polls and he is always quite behind from Bandana Waddle Dee. Not majorly, but a decent chunk. And Magolor isn't entirely a one-off. Magolor keeps getting roles unlike most kirby villans. Unlike Zelda one offs who are lucky to even appear in a spin off. So it makes sense why Magolor would be seen as an alternative.

Fair point on Magolor.

As for Impa. Not a very fair comparison since Bandana Waddle Dee has been playable in mainline kirby games while Impa has been always a support role and has no consistancy for people to support.

How many characters have even been playable in actual Zelda games? Just Link. That's not really a valid comparison because of that. It also never stopped us from getting Zelda, Sheik or Ganondorf as playable characters.

The reason I mentioned Impa is they are a constant distant 4th character. The Legend of Zelda has Link, Zelda, Ganon(dorf), then Impa way in the distance. Kirby has always had Kirby, King Dedede, and Meta Knight, and lately it has been Bandanna Dee way in the distance.

It is very similar in that regard to Impa. Of course one advantage Impa has is Impa could easily be a Sheik Echo Fighter. Impa's model from Skyward Sword could easily be converted into a playable character.

(If Bandanna Dee was easily an Echo Fighter again, his chances would skyrocket in my analysis of him)

 

[BluePikmin11]

Why would you expect anywhere near 15 unique newcomers this game like Smash 4 did at launch in addition to all these Echo Fighters?

That's not just insane to expect, that's not possible and isn't going to happen.

I don't know how you can say that without ending your statement with "/s" TBH.

I am sticking to my guns after having the speculation experience of seeing people being one-sided on multiple Smash arguments like transformations, "no multiple characters from the same third-party franchise", "we can't have third party characters that are less iconic than Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man", "Robin cannot get in over Chrom because of Gematsu", and a number of other 'impossible' matters.

I choose to stand by my decision to predict this "ridiculous" outcome that is a high unique newcomer count.

 

[ZephyrZ]

But like, why. Why geno specifically? I can understand the appeal of raising a character from nothing to being in smash, but what has geno done to deserve the fanaticism he gets?

I guess it's just that there's a lot of fans with nostalgia for SMRPG. I wasn't around for that game, so I can't fully understand the hype surrounding him either, but I can respect it at the very least.

I know this is a brought up question a lot and I'm not trying to imply Geno won't be in because of it but wouls Geno be 3rd party or a first party? What about a 1.5 party?

I'd say 3rd party just because Nintendo doesn't own the rights to him. But he'd also probably be listed as a member of the Mario franchise and use the mushroom icon, so that part hurts my head a little.

Because you're reading far too much on the developer's intentions which are unknowable and thinking another face-lift of which we have had many for multiple stages means anything.

It was never Black Knight, and it still isn't Black Knight.
Nothing has changed.

It really does make me think of how they got rid of Ike's Chrom-costume even though it'd still be hard to confuse the two. Definitely not proof but it is just a little suspicious.

 

[Will]

I know this is a brought up question a lot and I'm not trying to imply Geno won't be in because of it but wouls Geno be 3rd party or a first party? What about a 1.5 party?

His character rights are owned by Square, which would make him a 3rd Party. I know it shouldn't be that way because he's a Mario character, but he's still a 3rd Party. I don't know if Shulk is a 2nd Party or if he became a 1st Party after Nintendo bought Monolith.

 

[Johnknight1]

Ultimate's project plan was devised in December 2015, a year and a half before Arms released, base game is pretty much an impossibility for an Arms character, as putting in an Arms character would have been a huge gamble as there's no telling at the time if this new unproven IP was going to be successful with highly-demanded characters for Smash or be another Codename S.T.E.A.M that is quickly forgotten about and lead to significant backlash against such a inclusion. Back in Smash 4 when Sakurai reserved a slot for a gen 6 pokemon, it was an explicit exception for Pokemon because of the nature of the series, while he stated that if Awakening released as little as six months later (where it released in Japan just one month before Smash 4's project plan was devised), Robin and Lucina probably wouldn't have been in Smash 4.

Makes sense.

Just not something you think of when you are thinking "okay this character is kind of the next Inklings lite, like Spyro to Crash."

I do think he is almost definitely gonna be DLC at this point though if he's not on the base roster.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I've never played Ike's games, but I now want Black Knight in Smash. He looks really cool. Though that would add even more fuel to the fire of "too many Fire Emblem characters". If there is a Heroes vs Villains theme going on...Fire Emblem does need a villain.

 

[Deleted member]

His character rights are owned by Square, which would make him a 3rd Party. I know it shouldn't be that way because he's a Mario character, but he's still a 3rd Party. I don't know if Shulk is a 2nd Party or if he became a 1st Party after Nintendo bought Monolith.

Shulk is likely second party sense there's a separate copyright for Monolith Soft on the title screen.

Except Monolith is owned by Nintendo in full so uh........

 

[Will]

I've never played Ike's games, but I now want Black Knight in Smash. He looks really cool. Though that would add even more fuel to the fire of "too many Fire Emblem characters". If there is a Heroes vs Villains theme going on...Fire Emblem does need a villain.

Then get the OG Villain, Gharnef. He's a staple in the series' early days.

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't think its the same, cloud is an icon and represents a classic game that is still talked about to this day. I don't think it's fair to compare that to geno.
This also isn't an argument against geno, I would just like to understand the hype

But like, why. Why geno specifically? I can understand the appeal of raising a character from nothing to being in smash, but what has geno done to deserve the fanaticism he gets?

But Cloud is a gaming icon, the most famous Final Fantasy character ever.
No hate on Geno, but he was a party member in one game 20 years ago. Most people don't know him.
I just wanna know why he's so hugely requested.

Never said anything about Geno or Cloud being the same, only said I heard that argument against Cloud.

I heard "irrelevant" arguments against Mega Man and Pac-Man too. And Duck Hunt. And ROB.

The reason people want the character is they liked the game and they like the design. Nintendo re-released it on the Wii Virtual Console, the Wii U Virtual Console and is on all versions of the Super Nintendo Classic, and during that time the game grew as a "cult classic" game. All that helps with exposure.

Really if you want to understand the hype, go to the source. Ask people and play Super Mario RPG. That's what I did, and I jumped aboard that hype train in an instant (note: Geno is OP OP).

 

[StormC]

I am sticking to my guns after having the speculation experience of seeing people being one-sided on multiple Smash arguments like transformations, "no multiple characters from the same third-party franchise", "we can't have third party characters that are less iconic than Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man", "Robin cannot get in over Chrom because of Gematsu", and a number of other 'impossible' matters.

I will stand by my decision to predict this "ridiculous" outcome that is a high unique newcomer count.

Does that include yourself? Because I remember you poo-pooing Ridley and K. Rool for years.

 

[Knight Dude]

The cool term nowadays is "character-action game"
which basically amounts to "action" game made by Platinum.

I really hate that term "Character-Action game". Literally any action game is going to have a character in it. Spectacle fighter isn't the best name ever, but it gives a better idea of what the game would be about.

 

[StormC]

Never said anything about Geno or Cloud being the same, only said I heard that argument against Cloud.

I heard "irrelevant" arguments against Mega Man and Pac-Man too. And Duck Hunt. And ROB.

The reason people want the character is they liked the game and they like the design. Nintendo re-released it on the Wii Virtual Console, the Wii U Virtual Console and is on all versions of the Super Nintendo Classic, and during that time the game grew as a "cult classic" game. All that helps with exposure.

Really if you want to understand the hype, go to the source. Ask people and play Super Mario RPG. That's what I did, and I jumped aboard that hype train in an instant.

I've played SMRPG before a lot of people on this site were even born and I still don't fully buy into the Geno hype, although Thirdkoopa try as he might, sold me on him a little bit more earlier today... but just a bit.

 

[Green_Pikmin*]

Feels appropiate to put this here: https://youtu.be/dTeBHMcXjuA

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Because you're reading far too much on the developer's intentions which are unknowable and thinking another face-lift of which we have had many for multiple stages means anything.

It was never Black Knight, and it still isn't Black Knight.
Nothing has changed.

If I’m not looking to far into it

Why are a few other people having the same conclusion

The most minor changes can be hints sometimes to stuff
(But really I don’t expect black knight though but would be nice though)

 

[BluePikmin11]

Does that include yourself? Because I remember you poo-pooing Ridley and K. Rool for years.

What does that mean exactly?

 

[DarkFalcon]

Then either get the OG Villain, Gharnef. He's a staple in the series' early days.

I googled Gharnef and I was sad he wasn't the guy in the image you posted.

 

[Wyoming]

I've never played Ike's games, but I now want Black Knight in Smash. He looks really cool. Though that would add even more fuel to the fire of "too many Fire Emblem characters". If there is a Heroes vs Villains theme going on...Fire Emblem does need a villain.

I'd have a problem with Fire Emblem only having two unique characters from the eight they got in that scenario. Yes, the series is rife with characters, but most of them all sharing moves with another would be a little silly.

Also Zelda, Donkey Kong, Street Fighter, Sonic, Xenoblade, Pokemon are all series that could have an echo or two added but we get three FE echoes instead? Eeeeeh...try to diversify the echoes a bit, at least.

 

[SebasSancy]

Out of curiosity, when talking about Arms... do people ACTUALLY want Spring Man, or is it something people just want because it's the most likely smash dlc inclusion from that series?

Because I honestly find Spring Man to be one of the most boring, if not THE most boring, Arms character. Min Min, Ribbon Girl and Twintelle were also all significantly more popular around the release of the game.

I totally agree! Spring Man is just too generic as a character. I would rather go for Ribbon Girl to represent the game, especially because of the double jump! And she's the protagonist too, right?

 

[Johnknight1]

I am sticking to my guns after having the speculation experience of seeing people being one-sided on multiple Smash arguments like transformations, "no multiple characters from the same third-party franchise", "we can't have third party characters that are less iconic than Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man", "Robin cannot get in over Chrom because of Gematsu", and a number of other 'impossible' matters.

I will stand by my decision to predict this "ridiculous" outcome that is a high unique newcomer count.

You actually have no sense of how development works, my goodness.

We got 100+ stages, 800+ songs, and over 64 returning characters with lots more clones than before.

There is zero chance we get 15 unique moveset newcomers for the 2nd game in a row. We are at 4 with 3 1/2 months until launch. No way Sakurai is unveiling 12 in that span in addition to like a near equal number of Echo Fighters. Not even with the Brawl Dojo did we get newcomers dished out that quickly, and the dev team held off showing newcomers for over 15 months (and new veterans for about 10 months).

Even the DBZ Budokai Tencaichi games had mostly just clones to reach that roster size.

 

[blackghost]

Pokémon is huge. Pokémon is always huge. Like... this Generation of Pokémon is probably going to make more money than the entirety of Kirby or Donkey Kong Country have.

And having characters from x generations brings a new taste to the roster, almost like it's from a new IP.

Also this Generation has a lottttt of good candidates. Incineroar and Decidueye are tailor-made for Smash probably better than Lucario and Greninja (who are kind of wonky playable characters TBH). It was always inevitable and it remains inevitable IMO.

Really Gen 6 and Gen 7 have sold so well, it's insane. And add in Pokémon Go and oh man. Pokémon is freaking huge. I still can't believe Pikachu is the official mascot of the forthcoming Olympics either.

do you buy into the buzzwole belief? i just cant look at that thing and imagine it on a victory screen. reminds me too much of the fly. im not really for inceneroar because i dont like the idea of another smash grappler after 4. the character will either be awful or obnoxious.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

...you mean Ike's dad.

I'd be fully down with an echo of Black Knight for Ike though. It'd be the last Fire Emblem echo though hopefully.

Yeah I was just being vague with the wording seeing as some might not have played the games considering their insane prices and such.

 

[Glaciacott]

I've never played Ike's games, but I now want Black Knight in Smash. He looks really cool. Though that would add even more fuel to the fire of "too many Fire Emblem characters". If there is a Heroes vs Villains theme going on...Fire Emblem does need a villain.

If Chrom hadn't happened, I would have been ok with Black Knight. Now, not so much.

As for Fire Emblem villain, just give Robin a Grima-possessed skin and a new final smash that summons a giant dragon, and boom, villain. And hey, we haven't seen Robin's new Chrom-less final smash, maybe this is it.

 

[Will]

I googled Gharnef and I was sad he wasn't the guy in the image you posted.

Why would you think it was that?

He looks spooky enough, people would probably stop complaining about "too many anime" when they see him.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If Ken is an echo, then it's only appropriate that he gets his actual main differences like the firey uppercut. Suggesting that he should be a simple Ryu makes me think those people don't actually play Street Fighter.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I am sticking to my guns after having the speculation experience of seeing people being one-sided on multiple Smash arguments like transformations, "no multiple characters from the same third-party franchise", "we can't have third party characters that are less iconic than Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man", "Robin cannot get in over Chrom because of Gematsu", and a number of other 'impossible' matters.

I will stand by my decision to predict this "ridiculous" outcome that is a high unique newcomer count.

That's perfectly fine as long as you don't throw a hissy fit here when that inevitably doesn't happen.

I guess it's just that there's a lot of fans with nostalgia for SMRPG. I wasn't around for that game, so I can't fully understand the hype surrounding him either, but I can respect it at the very least.

I was around for it, and have played through it which is why I am so confused. Geno doesn't really do anything in the game story wise aside from joining the party. You could almost remove his entire character from the game, and the game would nearly be the same. Which is why the want for him is so baffling to me.

Why is this the character that the community has put so much energy in. Surely it goes beyond "cool design, and everyone else is asking for him so I guess I will too"

 

[StormC]

What does that mean exactly?

My point is you were listing examples of the Smash community saying "XYZ can't happen," when a lot of things you have been adamant about not happening regarding Sakurai and Smash have come to pass. Everyone has their expectations checked now and then. Perhaps even your current lofty ones.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[blackghost]

Out of curiosity, when talking about Arms... do people ACTUALLY want Spring Man, or is it something people just want because it's the most likely smash dlc inclusion from that series?

Because I honestly find Spring Man to be one of the most boring, if not THE most boring, Arms character. Min Min, Ribbon Girl and Twintelle were also all significantly more popular around the release of the game.

id love twintelle but im sure a second time slow character would make the community actually die from salt exposure.

 

[Will]

Damn, now I wonder if Gharnef support actually exists. I think he'd be an actually good addition and not make people hate FE as much.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Funny thing, Spring Man is written off as Generic but there's more to him that being the basic character.

In the spirit of an anime hero, when cornered he pulls incredible strength out of nowhere and his attacks are always at full charge.

It's only compared to the other ARMS characters that he can come off as dull.

Personally, I want to see Dr. Coyle given the Smash Treatment. Let's see a female villain with her own unique moveset.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I'd have a problem with Fire Emblem only having two unique characters from the eight they got in that scenario. Yes, the series is rife with characters, but most of them all sharing moves with another would be a little silly.

Also Zelda, Donkey Kong, Street Fighter, Sonic, Xenoblade, Pokemon are all series that could have an echo or two added but we get three FE echoes instead? Eeeeeh...try to diversify the echoes a bit, at least.

I think if it did happen, people would be upset either way. If he was an Ike echo people would be upset that he's like the other FE characters. If he's unique people will be upset they spent development time for him as a newcomer for a franchise people think has too much representation. So either way it'll cause chaos.

But hey, this is actually a cool topic because it's different from the norm that's usually discussed here.

 

[Knight Dude]

I enjoy imagining Sakurai implementing an echo just because he wants an Amiibo made of them.

Protoman Amiibo when?

Though now that I'm thinking about it, Dark Samus will have an amiibo too. That'd be sick to have.

 

[Idon]

If I’m not looking to far into it

Why are a few other people having the same conclusion

The most minor changes can be hints sometimes to stuff
(But really I don’t expect black knight though but would be nice though)

Ever heard of placebo?

Remember the days of Smash 4 patches where a single reddit post was enough to misinform thousands of people for months on end and required triple the effort to debunk?

 

[DarkFalcon]

Why would you think it was that?
View attachment 158728
He looks spooky enough, people would probably stop complaining about "too many anime" when they see him.

I don't know. I have no experience with the older games, but now that I know what he looks like I'm aware of him because I saw him in FE Warriors.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Even the most generic ARMS character would be an incredibly unique addition for Smash.

Spring Man being generic doesn't really apply here.

 

[Deleted member]

Ever heard of placebo?

Remember the days of Smash 4 patches where a single reddit post was enough to misinform thousands of people for months on end and required triple the effort to debunk?

Every patch, someone would report that Shulk's dash attack endlag was reduced when it was only changed once.

Maybe if Nintendo had actual patch notes, things would be smoother.