Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DarkFalcon]

I'm so happy both of my most wanted were both confirmed (Ridley) and disconfirmed (Ashley) so I don't have to be nervous every time I hear Smash news. I mean, I'd kill for Banjo & Kazooie but this game has already satisfied me so I'm taking anything extra as desert (Dark Samus).

 

[Pakky]

Galaxy brain activated

 

[StormC]

So do you guys just think a bunch of casuals voted in a character who hasn't been in the public mainstream since 1999 or what.

 

[Wyoming]

Hold the phone

Can I play Final Destination (Brawl) on Battlefield?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm not the biggest fan of Bandanna Dee, admittedly. However, I want him in for the fans who want him in. I won't argue against the mentality of some of you guys' points because they're all very well done but I think it's worth noting the dedication some of these guys have towards this character, respect that. Don't be a douche about it. Bandanna Dee fans, you just gotta wait and see. There's points for your character and there's points against and until he's in there's no way you're going to escape that.

If I had to say the top 3 most popular character, not most likely, right now. It'd be:

1. Isaac
2. Geno
3. Bandanna Dee

I dunno which is more popular or likely between Isaac and Geno but I personally think that Dee falls right beneath both. That's just my analysis though.

 

[vaanrose]

Fascinating stuff. Going back to something you mentioned earlier to someone else. So it's not only entirely possible, but also likely a lot of the models we've seen will constantly be getting touched up until release? How is that balanced with working on models for new fighters?

All depends on the size of the art team, and specifically the size of the character art team. They've obviously got a massive environment art team, but there's usually almost no overlap in assigned work even if there is overlap in skill. So you'll have a dedicated character art team that will be divided up to cover as much work as possible.

Since so much of Triple A studio work is all about keeping everyone busy, that's partly why models get implemented before they're finished, so the other teams can do their work. The other part is that production can be pretty fluid, and it's not unheard of for work to get scrapped and redone.

As a hypothetical example, since I don't know what they've actually done, they could have built a Wolf model that was more similar to his old design, then scrapped it for this new one, which could explain why it was in a less finished state. There's at least some evidence that they were undecided on his design, since his e3 footage has two different colored boots depending on the shot. So, you often don't finalize a model until you're certain you're happy with the direction you're going in, because otherwise you've just spent a ton of money and time the artists could have been working on something else on an asset you're not even going to use.

 

[Will]

I don't understand a big deal with the copyright stuff myself if you can't just make small changes to the words. They've gotten away with that specific change before, I believe, it's how Soft & Wet got the pass because it wasn't called Soft and Wet specifically.

Oh for sure, i really wouldn't be able to cope if he isn't the next one confirmed…

You know damn well I want it to not be Skull Kid.

I want to watch Alax it crash and burn. People who believe in chairs shall be destroyed.

 

[SquashiniKun]

I'm so happy both of my most wanted were both confirmed (Ridley) and disconfirmed (Ashley) so I don't have to be nervous every time I hear Smash news. I mean, I'd kill for Banjo & Kazooie but this game has already satisfied me so I'm taking anything extra as desert (Dark Samus).

I'm really excited to see if my predictions were correct or not.

 

[Deleted member]

Hold the phone

Can I play Final Destination (Brawl) on Battlefield?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Multi-Man Melee 2 can be moved back to Final Destination without modding.

 

[GunBlaze]

Dark Pit may be the exact same model as regular Pit. Maybe, I'd have to look at it closer.

It's the exact same. Best way to compare is to look at DP's KI:U art to see all the missing elements.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hey wait a minute I just realized I'll be able to play Jump Up Super Star on Mushroomy Kingdom

I think the problem with a lot of arguments I've been seeing against BWD is that they apply to a lot of characters and yet for some reason are only applying to Bandana Waddle Dee.

Like people are saying, "Bandana Waddle Dee popularity is just an echo chamber" and then immediately follow up with "Geno and Isaac are way more popular."

Like you have no proof either and Geno and Isaac also have a lot against their potential popularity. Like how Geno was in one game way back during the 1990s. And Isaac is a JRPG character. JRPGs are niche franchises by nature. That's not to say they aren't popular. But just like Bandana Waddle Dee they have potential things that might hamper their popularity. If you are going to throw up Bandana Waddle Dee's ways of showing he is popular, you have to throw up everyone elses as well.

I shouldn't, because I predict how this will go, but fine, maybe I could be wrong. I'll bite. This is coming from someone who enjoys all three characters, keep in mind.

First off, a lot of what Johnknight1 was saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) Geno and Isaac have been around for quite some time, especially in speculation, so it's not really a comparable ball. Isaac's been around for almost 20 years as the "Shoo-in" character after Olimar that everyone thought was a dead giveaway, and Geno's been acknowledged plenty by even Sakurai's words and a Mii Costume (to play devil's advocate, Waddle Dee's are now entirely out of King Dedede's moveset).

Next, Isaac gives love to a new series on the roster, which is different. If you want, we could go down a rabbit hole where we compare Little Mac's popularity and Shulk's to Waddle Dee, but I've said this before - New franchises aren't really worth your time.

And then... Geno's in a weird spot. While I agree that more people have probably seen a Waddle Dee and we don't have enough concrete statistics on our hands to prove anything, the point that was made w/ Geno was that Geno would be easier to market off of "coolness" factor.

Honestly, a lot of the arguments for the characters boil down to the same reasoning. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If another Kirby character, Geno, Isaac, etc, don't make the roster, it'll probably be because the cutting room floor had to be decided somewhere. I will, however, defend new series on the basis that it's kinda absurd to compare a Rhythm Heaven character or Isaac to adding another character from a series that's already in Smash. Especially when Smash is about fanservice and advertising. Think for a second about the amount of series that have had a huge bump thanks to Smash.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

I think the problem with a lot of arguments I've been seeing against BWD is that they apply to a lot of characters and yet for some reason are only applying to Bandana Waddle Dee.

Like people are saying, "Bandana Waddle Dee popularity is just an echo chamber" and then immediately follow up with "Geno and Isaac are way more popular."

Like you have no proof either and Geno and Isaac also have a lot against their potential popularity. Like how Geno was in one game way back during the 1990s. And Isaac is a JRPG character. JRPGs are niche franchises by nature. That's not to say they aren't popular. But just like Bandana Waddle Dee they have potential things that might hamper their popularity. If you are going to throw up Bandana Waddle Dee's ways of showing he is popular, you have to throw up everyone elses as well.

I'm going to breaking this down real quick.

Bandana dee gets his popularity in North America and Japan. But mostly Japan.

Geno mostly gets equal amount of support from both of those regions. He's pretty consistent, but never at consistently at the top.

Isaac on the other hand, gets alot of his popularity from major countries in europe (except the uk) and North America. (I've aslo heard he's pretty popular in brazil.)

Honestly, a lot of newcomers that were announced for ultimate arent really "recognized" by the masses. But i think the ballot leads itself to being the main inspirational for this smash bros, which i'm happy for those who will get chosen. ^^

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's not super relevant to our current discussion, but after Verg said Decidueye isn't happening, so many people are acting like Incineroar is the only option left for Pokemon newcomers. I think people are just expecting that it has to be a starter because our Pokemon newcomer (Greninja) was one in the last game. But remember how everyone thought Zoroark would be in because it was "Gen 5's Lucario"?

I wanted to do this for a while, but I thought I'd go over every single Generation 7 Pokemon I feel has potential for a fighter aside from the already widely talked about Lycanrock/Mimikyu(Rip)/Decidueye/Incineroar/Buzzwole and why.

Primarina

It already has starter status, so it's guaranteed to be well recognized and popular. It has moveset potential in sound based attacks and creating bubbles out of water. People argued that it would be awkward watching it crawl around on land but I could easily see it using a similar dash animation to Squirtle. It's large tale could be used in a lot of attacks similarly to Mewtwo.

Silvally

This pokemon is prominent in Sun and Moon's story, advertising and lore. It's got one heck of a design as well. It's move set potential might be somewhat limited by being a quadruped with no vines or duck riding on its back, but it has a large enough selection of learn able moves in its own games that they could get creative with it. It could also incorporate type changes into its moveset gimmick. I'm personally imagining giving it moves that increase in power and knockback when it matches their type as a way to incorporate STAB (same type attack bonus) into Smash Bros gameplay.

Kommo-o

Not as popular as the other pokemon listed, this pokemon also has a stand out design. Being a psuedo-legendary and the final totem challenge in Sun and Moon, it's iconic enough. It's long arms could help set it apart from the likes of Charizard, as well as its heavy scales. Maybe its signature move, Clanging Scales, could be incorporated as an extremely powerful attack that also causes it to take extra damage for a short while.

Tapu-Koko

Another standout Pokemon, Tapu-Koko appears early in Sun and Moon's story and is the most recognizable of the Tapus. It has a memorable pokemon design and could use its bizarre hands to "peck" and "bit" its opponents for its standard attacks. Electric Surge could potentially be used as a stage control special move that increases the damage of electrical attacks to opponents within its area of effect while also preventing sleep. Guardian of Alola is also just screaming to be a Final Smash.

Pheromosa

We're always bringing up Buzzwole but never its feminine counterpart, Roach-Form Deoxys. As well as having exact equal importance to Buzzwole within SM, its humanoid body would also lend well to its moveset potential. Being a total glass canon in competitive play, she could be an extreme lightwight with amazing rush down capabilities. Or you could make her into a Bayonetta echo and make her just as toxic to fight as she was in early Competitive S/M.

Or you know, I could be wrong about all of these and it could be Nihilego or Necrozma or Golisopod or something. There's just so much potential here it's just frustrating to me how we're all just talking about the same small handful of mons. Incineroar is likely, but when there's this much potential lying around, it is by no means the only one we should be looking at.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand a big deal with the copyright stuff myself if you can't just make small changes to the words. They've gotten away with that specific change before, I believe, it's how Soft & Wet got the pass because it wasn't called Soft and Wet specifically.

And sometimes, the proper name sneaks in anyway:

To my knowledge, this was never patched, so yeah, they used the real name and nothing happened. Maybe.

 

[SvartWolf]

I enjoy imagining Sakurai implementing an echo just because he wants an Amiibo made of them.

this will be Richter Belmont very first figure! :3

 

[Thirdkoopa]

On that note: I kinda hope we're not done with new series because new series boosts can be huge from Smash. Splatoon's already popular and I doubt komoney will do much with Castlevania differently thanks to it in Smash.

Come on Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun.

 

[DarkFalcon]

All depends on the size of the art team, and specifically the size of the character art team. They've obviously got a massive environment art team, but there's usually almost no overlap in assigned work even if there is overlap in skill. So you'll have a dedicated character art team that will be divided up to cover as much work as possible.

Since so much of Triple A studio work is all about keeping everyone busy, that's partly why models get implemented before they're finished, so the other teams can do their work. The other part is that production can be pretty fluid, and it's not unheard of for work to get scrapped and redone.

As a hypothetical example, since I don't know what they've actually done, they could have built a Wolf model that was more similar to his old design, then scrapped it for this new one, which could explain why it was in a less finished state. There's at least some evidence that they were undecided on his design, since his e3 footage has two different colored boots depending on the shot. So, you often don't finalize a model until you're certain you're happy with the direction you're going in, because otherwise you've just spent a ton of money and time the artists could have been working on something else on an asset you're not even going to use.

I appreciate all this information. Learning this kind of stuff is always fascinating to me. Last thing I want to ask. Are the people who make the character render art and the people who do the in game models the same? I recall in the last direct seeing the Dark Samus render being pretty detailed and the in game model being less so. I wasn't sure if that was just console limitations or they just weren't finished yet, which is very possible.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

You know damn well I want it to not be Skull Kid.

I want to watch Alax it crash and burn. People who believe in chairs shall be destroyed.

What if you don’t believe in the chairs but have been predicting/wanting Skull Kid since June?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I don't understand a big deal with the copyright stuff myself if you can't just make small changes to the words. They've gotten away with that specific change before, I believe, it's how Soft & Wet got the pass because it wasn't called Soft and Wet specifically.


You know damn well I want it to not be Skull Kid.

I want to watch Alax it crash and burn. People who believe in chairs shall be destroyed.

I still expect two Wario characters to be revealed out of nowhere and blindside everyone.

 

[Johnknight1]

Scol's point is that just because it's the Smashboards (or internet) popular opinion, doesn't mean it'll happen, and that sometimes people can disagree and still have valid points.

I'm not always in 100% agreement w/ Johnknight1 but he brought up some valid points that are worth dhiscussing. If I'm to be honest, a lot of the hive mind discussions have been very dismissive, and as my "hi I've been around speculation since Brawl" has proven, sometimes it's when we get too dismissive/hivemind that we're not looking in the right places

I had that few set of days where I got people to look at polls that weren't the ballot, and I feel like, for the people who were around for that, it was pretty eye-opening.

Also, I get that Bandanna Waddle Dee is requested a lot, but let's be reasonable here: Kirby, as a collective whole, is popular in Japan

Not that anyone has any proof for this, but you can pick any prominent Kirby character and most people will probably be pretty happy. Contrary to popular belief, I definitely think Kirby could have 6 characters. It probably won't, if ever, but it's worth discussing.

This. We see Kirby characters poll very high in every Japanese poll. Not just Bandanna Dee, but loads of other ones, namely one offs, similar to what we saw in past Zelda games with say Zant, Ghirahim, etc that were never going to happen.

Bandanna Dee situation-wise is a lot similar to the 4th Zelda character Impa (and to a degree Skull Kid) in a lot of ways. Only problem is Bandanna Dee has is he isn't an easy clone/Echo Fighter. If Bandanna Dee could easily be an either/or situation like Isabelle, I wouldn't be saying "hey hold the hype train because disappointment probably awaits." I'd be helping load the coal instead!!!

 

[XenoWarriorX]

On that note: I kinda hope we're not done with new series because new series boosts can be huge from Smash. Splatoon's already popular and I doubt komoney will do much with Castlevania differently thanks to it in Smash.

Come on Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun.

Rhythm Heaven, Golden Sun, Custom Robo, Sin and Punishment. Man, a lot of these franchises deserve some spotlight.

But subverting expectations is probably for the better.

 

[SebasSancy]

It's not super relevant to our current discussion, but after Verg said Decidueye isn't happening, so many people are acting like Incineroar is the only option left for Pokemon newcomers. I think people are just expecting that it has to be a starter because our Pokemon newcomer (Greninja) was one in the last game. But remember how everyone thought Zoroark would be in because it was "Gen 5's Lucario"?

I wanted to do this for a while, but I thought I'd go over every single Generation 7 Pokemon I feel has potential for a fighter aside from the already widely talked about Lycanrock/Mimikyu(Rip)/Decidueye/Incineroar/Buzzwole and why.

Primarina

It already has starter status, so it's guaranteed to be well recognized and popular. It has moveset potential in sound based attacks and creating bubbles out of water. People argued that it would be awkward watching it crawl around on land but I could easily see it using a similar dash animation to Squirtle. It's large tale could be used in a lot of attacks similarly to Mewtwo.

Silvally

This pokemon is prominent in Sun and Moon's story, advertising and lore. It's got one heck of a design as well. It's move set potential might be somewhat limited by being a quadruped with no vines or duck riding on its back, but it has a large enough selection of learn able moves in its own games that they could get creative with it. It could also incorporate type changes into its moveset gimmick. I'm personally imagining giving it moves that increase in power and knockback when it matches their type as a way to incorporate STAB (same type attack bonus) into Smash Bros gameplay.

Kommo-o

Not as popular as the other pokemon listed, this pokemon also has a stand out design. Being a psuedo-legendary and the final totem challenge in Sun and Moon, it's iconic enough. It's long arms could help set it apart from the likes of Charizard, as well as its heavy scales. Maybe its signature move, Clanging Scales, could be incorporated as an extremely powerful attack that also causes it to take extra damage for a short while.

Tapu-Koko

Another standout Pokemon, Tapu-Koko appears early in Sun and Moon's story and is the most recognizable of the Tapus. It has a memorable pokemon design and could use its bizarre hands to "peck" and "bit" its opponents for its standard attacks. Electric Surge could potentially be used as a stage control special move that increases the damage of electrical attacks to opponents within its area of effect while also preventing sleep. Guardian of Alola is also just screaming to be a Final Smash.

Pheromosa

We're always bringing up Buzzwole but never its feminine counterpart, Roach-Form Deoxys. As well as having exact equal importance to Buzzwole within SM, its humanoid body would also lend well to its moveset potential. Being a total glass canon in competitive play, she could be an extreme lightwight with amazing rush down capabilities. Or you could make her into a Bayonetta echo and make her just as toxic to fight as she was in early Competitive S/M.

Or you know, I could be wrong about all of these and it could be Nihilego or Necrozma or Golisopod or something. There's just so much potential here it's just frustrating to me how we're all just talking about the same small handful of mons. Incineroar is likely, but when there's this much potential lying around, it is by no means the only one we should be looking at.

Primarina was actually third on the japanese popularity poll from the 7 generation pokemon. I can see her happen

 

[Glaciacott]

It's not super relevant to our current discussion, but after Verg said Decidueye isn't happening, so many people are acting like Incineroar is the only option left for Pokemon newcomers. I think people are just expecting that it has to be a starter because our Pokemon newcomer (Greninja) was one in the last game. But remember how everyone thought Zoroark would be in because it was "Gen 5's Lucario"?

I wanted to do this for a while, but I thought I'd go over every single Generation 7 Pokemon I feel has potential for a fighter aside from the already widely talked about Lycanrock/Mimikyu(Rip)/Decidueye/Incineroar/Buzzwole and why.

Primarina

It already has starter status, so it's guaranteed to be well recognized and popular. It has moveset potential in sound based attacks and creating bubbles out of water. People argued that it would be awkward watching it crawl around on land but I could easily see it using a similar dash animation to Squirtle. It's large tale could be used in a lot of attacks similarly to Mewtwo.

Silvally

This pokemon is prominent in Sun and Moon's story, advertising and lore. It's got one heck of a design as well. It's move set potential might be somewhat limited by being a quadruped with no vines or duck riding on its back, but it has a large enough selection of learn able moves in its own games that they could get creative with it. It could also incorporate type changes into its moveset gimmick. I'm personally imagining giving it moves that increase in power and knockback when it matches their type as a way to incorporate STAB (same type attack bonus) into Smash Bros gameplay.

Kommo-o

Not as popular as the other pokemon listed, this pokemon also has a stand out design. Being a psuedo-legendary and the final totem challenge in Sun and Moon, it's iconic enough. It's long arms could help set it apart from the likes of Charizard, as well as its heavy scales. Maybe its signature move, Clanging Scales, could be incorporated as an extremely powerful attack that also causes it to take extra damage for a short while.

Tapu-Koko

Another standout Pokemon, Tapu-Koko appears early in Sun and Moon's story and is the most recognizable of the Tapus. It has a memorable pokemon design and could use its bizarre hands to "peck" and "bit" its opponents for its standard attacks. Electric Surge could potentially be used as a stage control special move that increases the damage of electrical attacks to opponents within its area of effect while also preventing sleep. Guardian of Alola is also just screaming to be a Final Smash.

Pheromosa

We're always bringing up Buzzwole but never its feminine counterpart, Roach-Form Deoxys. As well as having exact equal importance to Buzzwole within SM, its humanoid body would also lend well to its moveset potential. Being a total glass canon in competitive play, she could be an extreme lightwight with amazing rush down capabilities. Or you could make her into a Bayonetta echo and make her just as toxic to fight as she was in early Competitive S/M.

Or you know, I could be wrong about all of these and it could be Nihilego or Necrozma or Golisopod or something. There's just so much potential here it's just frustrating to me how we're all just talking about the same small handful of mons. Incineroar is likely, but when there's this much potential lying around, it is by no means the only one we should be looking at.

This is exactly how I feel. Everyone mentions Decidueye and Incineroar, but I cannot really see either of those being truly unique, since we already have two archers (Pit, Link) and we already have characters who mainly use fire and command grabs (bowser, ridley, ganondorf)

I would so very much love to see a zoning archetype from Primarina. Someone in the Primarina thread left a sick moveset where you use bubbles to control zones and I would love to see that in Smash now.

I also low-key really would love to see Guzma w/ Golisopod. I would just be so great to see a trailer caption going "It's yo boy.... GUZMA"

 

[Pakky]

It's not super relevant to our current discussion, but after Verg said Decidueye isn't happening, so many people are acting like Incineroar is the only option left for Pokemon newcomers. I think people are just expecting that it has to be a starter because our Pokemon newcomer (Greninja) was one in the last game. But remember how everyone thought Zoroark would be in because it was "Gen 5's Lucario"?

I wanted to do this for a while, but I thought I'd go over every single Generation 7 Pokemon I feel has potential for a fighter aside from the already widely talked about Lycanrock/Mimikyu(Rip)/Decidueye/Incineroar/Buzzwole and why.

Primarina

It already has starter status, so it's guaranteed to be well recognized and popular. It has moveset potential in sound based attacks and creating bubbles out of water. People argued that it would be awkward watching it crawl around on land but I could easily see it using a similar dash animation to Squirtle. It's large tale could be used in a lot of attacks similarly to Mewtwo.

Silvally

This pokemon is prominent in Sun and Moon's story, advertising and lore. It's got one heck of a design as well. It's move set potential might be somewhat limited by being a quadruped with no vines or duck riding on its back, but it has a large enough selection of learn able moves in its own games that they could get creative with it. It could also incorporate type changes into its moveset gimmick. I'm personally imagining giving it moves that increase in power and knockback when it matches their type as a way to incorporate STAB (same type attack bonus) into Smash Bros gameplay.

Kommo-o

Not as popular as the other pokemon listed, this pokemon also has a stand out design. Being a psuedo-legendary and the final totem challenge in Sun and Moon, it's iconic enough. It's long arms could help set it apart from the likes of Charizard, as well as its heavy scales. Maybe its signature move, Clanging Scales, could be incorporated as an extremely powerful attack that also causes it to take extra damage for a short while.

Tapu-Koko

Another standout Pokemon, Tapu-Koko appears early in Sun and Moon's story and is the most recognizable of the Tapus. It has a memorable pokemon design and could use its bizarre hands to "peck" and "bit" its opponents for its standard attacks. Electric Surge could potentially be used as a stage control special move that increases the damage of electrical attacks to opponents within its area of effect while also preventing sleep. Guardian of Alola is also just screaming to be a Final Smash.

Pheromosa

We're always bringing up Buzzwole but never its feminine counterpart, Roach-Form Deoxys. As well as having exact equal importance to Buzzwole within SM, its humanoid body would also lend well to its moveset potential. Being a total glass canon in competitive play, she could be an extreme lightwight with amazing rush down capabilities. Or you could make her into a Bayonetta echo and make her just as toxic to fight as she was in early Competitive S/M.

Or you know, I could be wrong about all of these and it could be Nihilego or Necrozma or Golisopod or something. There's just so much potential here it's just frustrating to me how we're all just talking about the same small handful of mons. Incineroar is likely, but when there's this much potential lying around, it is by no means the only one we should be looking at.

Zoroark was failure to launch, not on Ash's team and no promotion beyond 5th gen.

Incineroar, well, ya know Torracat, plus a movie where he fought Charizrad.

I do like Pheromosa, but is she the staple of gen 7? Not really, oddly Poipole is the frontrunner for the UBs as it too is a starter (in Ultra Space?) and is on Ash's team.

Slivally I could see, Primarina is popular but I have no idea.

 

[Johnknight1]

Preeeeeeeeeeach. Been saying this for awhile now. This site will never learn, and for every member that does, 4 more will appear that haven't learned.

Also, for anyone saying they think sakurai was just pulling the community's legs by telling us not to expect many characters, please stop. Literally the quickest way to disappoint yourself. You are the poster that says "I cant believe this is it" and "really underwhelming roster, can't believe sakurai let us down" on release date.

Sakurai has 0 reason to lie to you. If he even felt the need to tell you not to look out for a ton of newcomers, it's because he felt he needed to throw out some preemptive damage control. Please take him at face value for your own sake. Way better to be surprised with what you end up getting than to feel like what you got sucks. Keep those expectations in check.

It's crazy that on the base roster of Smash 4 we got like 15 unique newcomers and now people are expecting that again.

SMH we'll be super duper lucky if we get 10 pre-release. These spots are super precious. We already got 4 down with Inklings, Ridley, Simon and K. Rool. If we get 4 more that would be lucky. Each of these roster spots has to mean a lot.

Sure Echo Fighter spots you can throw away things; you can give us Daisy, Samus, Chrom, characters people have wanted for a good while to varying degrees without any problems. We are gonna get Ken, Shadow, maybe Isabelle, Impa, etc like that no problem.

But those unique character slots... that is precious.

DLC is a bit more "anything goes," but this base roster... everything is valuable. I feel like we also don't appreciate enough that we are getting a freaking ROUGHLY EIGHTY CHARACTER ROSTER!!!

I thought Marvel vs. Capcom 2 was the peak of the mountaintop for characters; I thought Smash 4 was pushing the limits; but this games' roster... it just breaks any perception of the limits. But in spite of that, we must accept limits, because we are about to be hit by them. We're running low on base roster spots folks, you just gotta accept that. Blame Pichu

 

[Noipoi]

It's not super relevant to our current discussion, but after Verg said Decidueye isn't happening, so many people are acting like Incineroar is the only option left for Pokemon newcomers. I think people are just expecting that it has to be a starter because our Pokemon newcomer (Greninja) was one in the last game. But remember how everyone thought Zoroark would be in because it was "Gen 5's Lucario"?

I wanted to do this for a while, but I thought I'd go over every single Generation 7 Pokemon I feel has potential for a fighter aside from the already widely talked about Lycanrock/Mimikyu(Rip)/Decidueye/Incineroar/Buzzwole and why.

Primarina

It already has starter status, so it's guaranteed to be well recognized and popular. It has moveset potential in sound based attacks and creating bubbles out of water. People argued that it would be awkward watching it crawl around on land but I could easily see it using a similar dash animation to Squirtle. It's large tale could be used in a lot of attacks similarly to Mewtwo.

Silvally

This pokemon is prominent in Sun and Moon's story, advertising and lore. It's got one heck of a design as well. It's move set potential might be somewhat limited by being a quadruped with no vines or duck riding on its back, but it has a large enough selection of learn able moves in its own games that they could get creative with it. It could also incorporate type changes into its moveset gimmick. I'm personally imagining giving it moves that increase in power and knockback when it matches their type as a way to incorporate STAB (same type attack bonus) into Smash Bros gameplay.

Kommo-o

Not as popular as the other pokemon listed, this pokemon also has a stand out design. Being a psuedo-legendary and the final totem challenge in Sun and Moon, it's iconic enough. It's long arms could help set it apart from the likes of Charizard, as well as its heavy scales. Maybe its signature move, Clanging Scales, could be incorporated as an extremely powerful attack that also causes it to take extra damage for a short while.

Tapu-Koko

Another standout Pokemon, Tapu-Koko appears early in Sun and Moon's story and is the most recognizable of the Tapus. It has a memorable pokemon design and could use its bizarre hands to "peck" and "bit" its opponents for its standard attacks. Electric Surge could potentially be used as a stage control special move that increases the damage of electrical attacks to opponents within its area of effect while also preventing sleep. Guardian of Alola is also just screaming to be a Final Smash.

Pheromosa

We're always bringing up Buzzwole but never its feminine counterpart, Roach-Form Deoxys. As well as having exact equal importance to Buzzwole within SM, its humanoid body would also lend well to its moveset potential. Being a total glass canon in competitive play, she could be an extreme lightwight with amazing rush down capabilities. Or you could make her into a Bayonetta echo and make her just as toxic to fight as she was in early Competitive S/M.

Or you know, I could be wrong about all of these and it could be Nihilego or Necrozma or Golisopod or something. There's just so much potential here it's just frustrating to me how we're all just talking about the same small handful of mons. Incineroar is likely, but when there's this much potential lying around, it is by no means the only one we should be looking at.

Considering how much Gamefreak likes pushing Incineroar I feel like he's got the best shot right now.
But as someone who really likes Incineroar, thinks he's pretty likely, but also likes all of these Pokemon as well, it's a good time to be me.
Whatever Pokemon Sakurai chooses i'd be cool with. Except Mr Mime. Mr Mime is an abomination.

 

[Sharkarat]

I'm not quoting directly, because I want to share my personal opinions around these statements, not trying to argue that they were popular views.

- Ashley was one of the most likely newcomers
- Ashley couldn't possibly be an Assist Trophy

Never thought see was that likely, at most the most likely Wario character. I thought a Wario character was very unlikely.

- Mimikyu was a better and more obvious choice than Decidueye and Incineroar
- Mimikyu wouldn't be a Pokeball

Mimikyu was to me one of the plausible gen 7 Pokemon (Mimikyu, Decidueye, incineroar & a Ultrabeast), and mimikyu was really obvious Pokeball if not playable. This one is hard hard to guess because the timing makes it a Sakurai's choice situation, not a popularity one.

- Waluigi was the most likely Mario "rep"

No offence, but I feels it was mostly his fans that thought this. Daisy as a clone as a clone has IMO always been more likely than him. Of course Daisy fans have mostly been in denial about daisy being a potential clone. Geno mostly has a chance because sakurai likes him + decent popularity.

- The Ballot is only going to be for a few characters, not most

Every Smash has pretty much been about popular choices with the exception of the around 2 retro/historic/wtf picks.

- There would be cuts
- There'd only be a few reveals of veterans AND newcomers
- Echo Fighters aren't going to be a huge thing/focus
- Snake had no chance of coming back
- 3rd Party franchises might not get Echo Fighters

I feel these are pretty mostly just guessing anyway

 

[MainJPW]

Galaxy brain activated

Here you can see Isabelle getting ready for her appearance in Smash Ultimate.

I still expect two Wario characters to be revealed out of nowhere and blindside everyone.

Did you just confirm Captain Syrup?

 

[Johnknight1]

I shouldn't, because I predict how this will go, but fine, maybe I could be wrong. I'll bite. This is coming from someone who enjoys all three characters, keep in mind.

First off, a lot of what Johnknight1 was saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) Geno and Isaac have been around for quite some time, especially in speculation, so it's not really a comparable ball. Isaac's been around for almost 20 years as the "Shoo-in" character after Olimar that everyone thought was a dead giveaway, and Geno's been acknowledged plenty by even Sakurai's words and a Mii Costume (to play devil's advocate, Waddle Dee's are now entirely out of King Dedede's moveset).

Next, Isaac gives love to a new series on the roster, which is different. If you want, we could go down a rabbit hole where we compare Little Mac's popularity and Shulk's to Waddle Dee, but I've said this before - New franchises aren't really worth your time.

And then... Geno's in a weird spot. While I agree that more people have probably seen a Waddle Dee and we don't have enough concrete statistics on our hands to prove anything, the point that was made w/ Geno was that Geno would be easier to market off of "coolness" factor.

Honestly, a lot of the arguments for the characters boil down to the same reasoning. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If another Kirby character, Geno, Isaac, etc, don't make the roster, it'll probably be because the cutting room floor had to be decided somewhere. I will, however, defend new series on the basis that it's kinda absurd to compare a Rhythm Heaven character or Isaac to adding another character from a series that's already in Smash. Especially when Smash is about fanservice and advertising. Think for a second about the amount of series that have had a huge bump thanks to Smash.

Yeah, it took Geno at least a decade of support to break the bubble. And Sakurai has openly acknowledged the Geno hype, which made the hype bigger. Add in D1 and other community members, and it only snowballs bigger. The snowball was slow yes, but now it is huge.

As for Isaac, a similar situation. He was seen as a shoe-in in Brawl, but didn't happen. He was seen as a "leftover" from Brawl for Smash 4, didn't happen. Now he's got nostalgia because he's retro and the last character of an era missing. There's something special about that.

Honestly comparing either character to Bandanna Dee feels disingenuous to everyone involved. Bandanna Dee should be compared to his contemporaries, not characters from generations ago. How does Bandanna Dee stack up to say Dillon, Spring Man, Rex (w/ or w/o Pyra), Elma, etc. Those are the characters we should be comparing Bandanna Dee to, not Ridley/Isaac/Geno.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering how much Gamefreak likes pushing Incineroar I feel like he's got the best shot right now.
But as someone who really likes Incineroar, thinks he's pretty likely, but also likes all of these Pokemon as well, it's a good time to be me.
Whatever Pokemon Sakurai chooses i'd be cool with. Except Mr Mime. Mr Mime is an abomination.

Palutena no longer has Reflect Barrier. Obviously, it's because they gave it to Mr. Mime.

 

[Johnknight1]

I got on the internet when I was 13, damn son.

I got on when I was 7 and never got off.... for better or worse!

I'm just glad I'm not a parent.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Honestly comparing either character to Bandanna Dee feels disingenuous to everyone involved. Bandanna Dee should be compared to his contemporaries, not characters from generations ago. How does Bandanna Dee stack up to say Dillon, Spring Man, Rex (w/ or w/o Pyra), Elma, etc. Those are the characters we should be comparing Bandanna Dee to, not Ridley/Isaac/Geno.

If we do that, honestly, Bandanna Dee stands really well.

 

[vaanrose]

I appreciate all this information. Learning this kind of stuff is always fascinating to me. Last thing I want to ask. Are the people who make the character render art and the people who do the in game models the same? I recall in the last direct seeing the Dark Samus render being pretty detailed and the in game model being less so. I wasn't sure if that was just console limitations or they just weren't finished yet, which is very possible.

I've been pretty curious about the render art myself this time.

First off, we know they're heavily photoshopped. No realtime asset will ever match up, regardless of the strength of the tech.

Spoiler: Old Falco Render

Spoiler: New Falco Render

What I can't decide is whether they're photoshopped off of the actual realtime models or if they're photoshopped off the high-res sculpts that you make before making your real-time model.

Every character model begins as a high-fidelity, million polygon sculpt. This is the 75% thing that I was talking about. It's really easy to make something look good when you don't have to worry about it running in the engine. The next 25% is taking that sculpt and building the low-res model around it, which you then bake the detail map down on to, to basically cheat the eye and make the low-res model look hi-res. Some of the renders look like they might have faked, baked detail on them as opposed to real, sculpted detail, but it's very difficult to tell exactly.

This is kind of a roundabout answer to your question, lol. But the actual answer is, there's no way the in-game model will ever look as good. It really isn't meant to. If I had to guess, it's probably a different art team that does the renders, if only because all you need is photoshop skills, and you want the people with 3D skills to be spending their time working in 3D.

 

[Johnknight1]

On that note: I kinda hope we're not done with new series because new series boosts can be huge from Smash. Splatoon's already popular and I doubt komoney will do much with Castlevania differently thanks to it in Smash.

Come on Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun.

ARMS still lacking a character is really weird. I would have thought 3 1/2 months before the 5th Smash games launch we would have both the Inklings AND Spring Man confirmed.

(If Spring Man isn't in the base game though, he's almost definitely DLC)

 

[blackghost]

Can we stop with this? Metal Gear and essentially old Castlevania have become dead franchises at this point and Konami still let Sakurai put Snake back in and didn't force him to use a Lords of Shadow Character. I highly doubt it is as complicated as it has to be.

If Square let's him use Geno, it will probably be because Sakurai has wanted to use him. Perhaps Cloud HAD to be done first to establish a working relationship with Spuare. Or perhaps he didn't and felt Cloud was a better choice now.

Point is we have no idea how 3rd party inclusions work. But I personally feel if Konami, a company considered to be even worse to work with than Square, can let Sakurai use Snake and Simon Belmont, then Square can/would let Sakurai use Geno, no matter how obscurity.

That argument doesnt work. Snake was being brought back he'd already appeared and geno unlike cloud or snake isnt a franchise character. geno would be the only character in smash that wasnt the main character, villain, or a videogame mascot.
third party inclusions are inherently complicated. nothing is free and if SE doesnt think putting geno in the game will benefit them (hard to argue agianst them on this) then they will resist.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I feel like Spring Man or any ARMS character will definitely be DLC, much like Rex & Pyra, if the roster finalization in 2015 is anything to go by

 

[LetterO]

ARMS still lacking a character is really weird. I would have thought 3 1/2 months before the 5th Smash games launch we would have both the Inklings AND Spring Man confirmed.

(If Spring Man isn't in the base game though, he's almost definitely DLC)

I think Spring Man's too recent for base game, but I'd say he's most likely going to be DLC

 

[Johnknight1]

If we do that, honestly, Bandanna Dee stands really well.

I would say Bandanna Dee stands behind Spring Man and Rex (w/ or w/o Pyra) but ahead of the others. Which is... a decent spot.

But it's one too often we've seen lead to a character not happening before, from Wario and Diddy in Melee to Mega Man, Villager and Miis in Brawl, to Ridley, Chrom and K. Rool in Smash 4. DLC helps though. If Sakurai and co can find a way to maybe make Bandanna Dee an Echo Fighter, that raises Bandanna Dee's odds significantly.

Also Bandanna Dee like everyone on that list... stands behind whatever Gen 7 Pokémon we inevitably get (probably Incineroar).

The entire Smash franchise bends over for Pokémon though. We could get a dozen playable Pokémon in this game after DLC and I wouldn't be shocked TBH. Nothing sells like Pokémon that Nintendo makes, and I don't think anything ever will top it. I can't even comprehend how big Pokémon is.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Is a Gen 7 Pokemon really inevitable though. Like, I don't think it's impossible that we skip Gen 7 with the base game. I dunno. Usually I have a good feeling about certain characters but this time, there just isn't one. I like Pokemon well enough but honestly if we didn't get a new one this game I really would not be phased. Anyone else?

 

[Nazyrus]

I must be the weird one that thinks Arms might get AT-ed… the range of those characters for grabs and such as a playable character sounds to me way more broken than Simon's whip range for just attacking. But maybe that's just me…