Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PsychoIncarnate]

Imo only iconic pokemon missing from gen1 are meowth and gengar. If smash5 really has a heroes vs villians theme, gengar would fit really well as a villian for pokemon.

What is the chance we get 2 newcomer pokemon? (Gengar and Incineroar)

Not saying it will happen, just want to know what do you guys think...

Has there been a single villain in Pokemon that used a Gengar? I don't think any of them did.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Guys... The 71 characters thing has been there since the Direct. ALSO Amazon page copy is created and submitted by the company that produces / sells the product and can be updated at any time. That copy is on Nintendo, not Amazon. You know who also updates the website? Nintendo. It literally means nothing.

 

[WaxPython]

You realize that the reason why they stalled is because people booed them?

Yeah what of it? So when football players get booed do they're stop playing and hold a tantrum?

 

[Noipoi]

Has there been a single villain in Pokemon that used a Gengar? I don't think any of them did.

Nope. Not a one.
Gengar isn't evil, just mischevious. In fact no Pokemon is evil. Except Bidoof.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Guys... The 71 characters thing has been there since the Direct. ALSO Amazon page copy is created and submitted by the company that produces / sells the product and can be updated at any time. That copy is on Nintendo, not Amazon. You know who also updates the website? Nintendo. It literally means nothing.

I was being sarcastic. I was just pointing out Amazon is only saying that because that's what Nintendo's current number is as listed on the Smash website

 

[Remmy-ro]

You realize that the reason why they stalled is because people booed them?

According to Lima this was not at all the case

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

According to Lima this was not at all the case

Really? Now I'm curious, why was it?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I just thought about why we haven't seen the Tingle AT yet

It might just be because Tingle appears on the Great Bay stage.

I'm not sure, but maybe he's gone simply because of that. Even though they are different Tingles

 

[Remmy-ro]

Really? Now I'm curious, why was it?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Edit: don't know how to get rid of the x images

 

[papagenos]

Never implied anything of the sort.

Just saying that the results of the Ballot likely won't make a dent in the whole "Generations matter" thing since the top three candidates for a Pokémon would be among:
-a Melee veteran (Pichu)
-a bandwagon based solely on being a Grass Starter (Sceptile)
-a meme vote that's from Gen 1 anyway (Magnemite)

With Squirtle and Ivysaur being next in line after that.

My guess is it wasnt about which pokemon scored highest.

obviously the veterans scored high from every series so we got "everyone is here" with all characters returning, so pichu/pokemon trainer get in based on that.

I agree there probly wasnt a clear pokemon "winner" character, pokemons also big enough that although "sceptile" seems likely to the hardcore smash fans, a lot of random pokemon fans probly voted for whoever they just liked and popular pokemon in general may have matched sceptiles "hardcore smash fans" votes (obviously hes popular in general too but i dont think theres too many casual fans voting for him enough to be the clear winner over other popular pokemon). even if say sceptile did "win" i doubt it was double the next highest voted pokemon or at all enough of a majority to have it definitely win over many others which might have been nearly as highly voted for.

but the ballot didnt just ask you which character you want it asked WHY you want them.

and this is where i think trying to rep all the gens starts to make sense, i doubt one single pokemon was so overwhelmingly voted for it was clearly the winner there was probly a handful of popular pokemon that stood out and had about the same amount of votes. however if you were to look at the REASONS why a pokemon was voted for i think you could find a winning "reason" in "i want this pokemon in the game because this generation isnt represented in smash". im willing to bet that was extremely common in the ballot votes for pokemon, overwhelmingly so. we had three unrepped gens at the time of the ballot (no pichu in smash4) so every gen2/gen3/gen5 vote had the potential to have the reason behind that pokemons vote be "cause that generation doesnt have any pokemon in smash yet".

I wont start pushing the gardevoir leak here but this is my train of thought for why it makes so much sense to me cause the next step after deciding "ok try and rep all the gens, thats what the fans really want" is to then pick a pokemon thats popular enough to warrant inclusion in smash and has a create-able justifiable echo fighter candidate from the other missing gen. so again regardless of that leak this train of thought makes sense with ultimate for me... zelda is now representing different games in the series with its cast, the ballot almost certainly brought to sakurais attention the fact so many gens arent repped in smash, and the fighters this time seems to be based on ballot data and fan demand and i dont think theres a clear pokemon winner from pure number of votes.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Well I stand corrected.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I just thought about why we haven't seen the Tingle AT yet

It might just be because Tingle appears on the Great Bay stage.

I'm not sure, but maybe he's gone simply because of that. Even though they are different Tingles

The Moon also appears in both Great Bay and as an AT. Tingle's fate is really up in the air...what if he is the Zelda AT promoted to playable status instead of Skull Kid?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The Moon also appears in both Great Bay and as an AT. Tingle's fate is really up in the air...what if he is the Zelda AT promoted to playable status instead of Skull Kid?

The moon, though, is a creation of Majora. There is nothing that says he can't make more than 1

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Has there been a single villain in Pokemon that used a Gengar? I don't think any of them did.

He was a bad guy in one of the Mystery Dungeon games if that counts

 

[Nonno Umby]

The moon, though, is a creation of Majora. There is nothing that says he can't make more than 1

That is speculation about Majora'a powers. We know for sure that Majora's Mask Tingle and Wind Waker Tingle are two different people from different times, so they can both be there at the same moment.

 

[Noipoi]

The moon, though, is a creation of Majora. There is nothing that says he can't make more than 1

The only reason the Moon exists is because of some freaky demon mask? It's not just a rock orbiting earth?
Zelda science sure is wacky.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The only reason the Moon exists is because of some freaky demon mask? It's not just a rock orbiting earth?
Zelda science sure is wacky.

It's not the real moon. It's actually quite tiny

Also pretty sure it's destroyed at the end along with Majora

 

[UltimateWario]

The only reason the Moon exists is because of some freaky demon mask? It's not just a rock orbiting earth?
Zelda science sure is wacky.

The Moon in MM isn’t THE Moon. Most characters call it “THAT moon” rather than “THE moon” and it vanishes after you win.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Geez, imagine being someone living in Termina and waking up one day to see a Moon with a face in the sky not very far above you. That would just be freaky as hell.

 

[UltimateWario]

Geez, imagine being someone living in Termina and waking up one day to see a Moon with a face in the sky not very far above you. That would just be freaky as hell.

Honestly very few people seem particularly upset about it.

 

[ErenJager]

When it comes to Pokemon, representing generations and typing has always been a fan thing used justify whatever Pokemon is the flavour of the month.

I don't really recall Smash/ ever trying to represent every Gen or type. At least not since Brawl.

With not as many newcomers this time around, I doubt this will happen. Despite what an anon 4chan text leak says lol.

 

[Deleted member]

The echo fighter we all need:

 

[praline]

The Moon also appears in both Great Bay and as an AT. Tingle's fate is really up in the air...what if he is the Zelda AT promoted to playable status instead of Skull Kid?

That would be hella dumb.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

One thing loz18 said was "There’s interesting information that can be obtained by looking at the backgrounds of the fighters and art on the official Smash Bros. site."

I wonder if there is clues to the remaining characters right in front of us

LOL, like Pac Man in the clouds

 

[HairMythe]

My guess is it wasnt about which pokemon scored highest.

obviously the veterans scored high from every series so we got "everyone is here" with all characters returning, so pichu/pokemon trainer get in based on that.

I agree there probly wasnt a clear pokemon "winner" character, pokemons also big enough that although "sceptile" seems likely to the hardcore smash fans, a lot of random pokemon fans probly voted for whoever they just liked and popular pokemon in general may have matched sceptiles "hardcore smash fans" votes (obviously hes popular in general too but i dont think theres too many casual fans voting for him enough to be the clear winner over other popular pokemon). even if say sceptile did "win" i doubt it was double the next highest voted pokemon or at all enough of a majority to have it definitely win over many others which might have been nearly as highly voted for.

but the ballot didnt just ask you which character you want it asked WHY you want them.

and this is where i think trying to rep all the gens starts to make sense, i doubt one single pokemon was so overwhelmingly voted for it was clearly the winner there was probly a handful of popular pokemon that stood out and had about the same amount of votes. however if you were to look at the REASONS why a pokemon was voted for i think you could find a winning "reason" in "i want this pokemon in the game because this generation isnt represented in smash". im willing to bet that was extremely common in the ballot votes for pokemon, overwhelmingly so. we had three unrepped gens at the time of the ballot (no pichu in smash4) so every gen2/gen3/gen5 vote had the potential to have the reason behind that pokemons vote be "cause that generation doesnt have any pokemon in smash yet".

I wont start pushing the gardevoir leak here but this is my train of thought for why it makes so much sense to me cause the next step after deciding "ok try and rep all the gens, thats what the fans really want" is to then pick a pokemon thats popular enough to warrant inclusion in smash and has a create-able justifiable echo fighter candidate from the other missing gen. so again regardless of that leak this train of thought makes sense with ultimate for me... zelda is now representing different games in the series with its cast, the ballot almost certainly brought to sakurais attention the fact so many gens arent repped in smash, and the fighters this time seems to be based on ballot data and fan demand and i dont think theres a clear pokemon winner from pure number of votes.

Even if we ignore the leak, your point to justify the plausibility of gen3/5 reps still stands. I'll add that even if the "reason" for a vote wasn't looked at, more representation of gen2/3/5 than the other gens (especially gen4/6) in the ballot would have indicated fans want every gen represented. Thinking it could have been the conclusion the developpers drew from the ballot regarding pokémon isn't a stretch.

A single pokémon overwhelming all the others is indeed unlikely, and even if it happened, it'd be hard to guess who. What's more the pokémon in question could very well be irrealisable. Magnemite isn't happening. And actually, even if there was such a pokémon, it could have placed poorly in the ballot overall, given how the pokémon votes probably have been scattered.

Obviously, the devs could have stayed blind to the demand of every gen being represented. Papagenos' scenario could also not have happened in the first place. But I think it would be silly to turn a blind eye to that possibility now. It's clear we have been sleeping on gens 3 and 5 when it comes to a pokémon newcomer speculation.

While I think Gardevoir is one of the top contenders in such a scenario, it could very well be other pokémons. Anyone who is popular or can be an echo have a chance, in fact. In my opinion, that particular domain of speculation is actually very open right now.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

The echo fighter we all need:

I wouldn’t mind Wii Fit U trainer kek.

 

[T-Hell]

I too, am fairly confident Banjo will be the final bomb. It's a hard bet, but I think it's happening.

 

[Zinith]

You know, I'm gonna expand on my stage-to-character ratio thing a bit to include EVERY installment. Note that I'm separating the 3DS and Wii U versions of Smash 4 and I'm making separate one for "pre-DLC" and "post-DLC" (that's FOUR Smash 4 lists. Yikes!!!). Once again, no Mii Fighters and Final Destination, Battlefield and Big Battlefield. Anyways...

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros.

[12 Fighters, 9 Stages]

1
0.5
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Melee

[26 Fighters, 27 Stages]

3
2
1
0.8
0.5
0.4
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[39 Fighters, 39 Stages]
Animal Crossing, Nintendo DS and Electroplankton each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1
0.67
0.6
0.5
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS pre-DLC

[48 Fighters, 32 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs and Find Mii each have 1 stage but no fighters

1
0.71
0.5
0.4
0.33
0.25
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS post-DLC

[55 Fighters, 40 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs and Find Mii each have 1 stage but no fighters

1
0.67
0.6
0.5
0.33
0.17
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U pre-DLC

[48 Fighters, 43 Stages]
Piotwings, Wii Sports and Wrecking Crew each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1
0.86
0.66
0.6
0.5
0.4
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U post-DLC

[55 Fighters, 52 Stages]
Pilotwings, Wii Sports, Wrecking Crew and Miiverse each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1.14
1
0.66
0.5
0.33
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[70 Fighters, 100 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Electroplankton, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs, Find Mii, Pilotwings, Wii Sports and Wrecking Crew each have 1 stage but no fighters

4
3
2.25
2
1.5
1.33
1
0.78
0.5
0.43
0

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm sure if it was as easy as inspecting elements and seeing a reference to a different fighter someone would have found it by now...

 

[praline]

I thought of a pretty good idea for a Buzzwole reveal. The trailer would involve like Buzzwole just beating the hell out of every other playable Pokemon.

 

[vaanrose]

One thing loz18 said was "There’s interesting information that can be obtained by looking at the backgrounds of the fighters and art on the official Smash Bros. site."

I wonder if there is clues to the remaining characters right in front of us

LOL, like Pac Man in the clouds

Was this not referring to seeing all the different unconfirmed stages behind the characters? That's what I assumed he was talking about.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

One thing loz18 said was "There’s interesting information that can be obtained by looking at the backgrounds of the fighters and art on the official Smash Bros. site."

I wonder if there is clues to the remaining characters right in front of us

LOL, like Pac Man in the clouds

Really have no idea what this is supposed to mean tbh, the only thing I can gather is that none of the Zelda characters have a skyloft background which could very easily be used for impa but that's about it

 

[Guybrush20X6]

GameXplain put together both parts of Gangplank Galleon together

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Was this not referring to seeing all the different unconfirmed stages behind the characters? That's what I assumed he was talking about.

That might be it. I literally just copied one of the backgrounds into photoshop and tried to figure out if it had any hidden details.

Like it was a FNAF pic, lol.

Maybe if I increase the contrast, lol

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Really have no idea what this is supposed to mean tbh, the only thing I can gather is that none of the Zelda characters have a skyloft background which could very easily be used for impa but that's about it

It's possible.

But Zelda is one of those series with more stages than fighters and none of the characters currently in game originated/featured in that game. Fun to think tho.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

K Rool and Donkey Kong share the same stage in the background.

So we know fighters can have the same stage

 

[ShinyRegice]

If we're really going to analyze every word that Sakurai says as direct confirmation that that is it then we need to take into consideration that Sakurai said "the stage total is turning out to be pretty impressive." And "now the total number of stages is 103."

I feel ridiculous saying that but I feel like we're taking everything too literally right now. I dunno, it totally could be the final number but I don't see what good they would do for themselves by locking themselves in a box with a specific stage number that would only allow for characters from already represented franchises to be revealed. Maybe I'm being biased because I want Isaac and Rayman and much more from unrepresented franchises but I think people are reading into this FAR too much.

I'm in the camp which believes we're not getting any new stage and that Sakurai was quite explicit about it.
"The stage total is turning out to be pretty impressive." Yeah I'm sorry but I have no idea how "turning out" suggests we could getting more. The word "total" is much more explicit. First is said "Let's compare it to the totals in previous games." then comes a chart comparing the number of stages in different Smash games (even accounting with and without DLC for 3DS/Wii U). The "now" is also not very explicit, because it doesn't necessarily mean "for now", the way it's used it feels more like a "grammatical binder" if anything, as evidenced by the French version of the Direct for example, whose translation includes no word that's literally translated as "now". To be fair the total numbers of stages mentioned for the Wii U version is inaccurate (48/56 instead of the actual 46/55) but considering the others are accurate it's most likely an honest error, and they're very close to the actual numbers anyway.
But the biggest thing against the idea of more stages is the "All stages selectable from the get-go", so if they've shown us the stage select screen (which they did) then we've seen all the stages. It's tempting to say only "these" stages are starters as said by the presenter, but the lack of this word in the caption suggests that "these stages" and "All stages" are the same.
So yeah, if you want to play on semantics, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of no new stages. The semantic 'evidence' for new stages is so weak that I had to put that word between commas in this sentence.

There also has been a point made about how the character count is no different from the stage count, but the difference is that we've been promised more characters (unless the "more announcements to come" only referred to King K. Rool but I really doubt that's the case), and there's no evidence that the current character count is final, whereas for the stages there has been in the form of the quite explicit word "total".

For this reason I doubt we're getting characters from new series not currently represented in Smash. I know this sucks because I understand so many people don't want to see Isaac/Rayman/etc. out of Smash Ultimate's speculation, but as far as I'm concerned the content of new stages is pretty much to this game what Ridley was to the previous Smash. Of course we could get characters from unrepresented series without their home stages, but while it's true that Marth and Roy came without a home stage in Melee, one was still planned, and aparently got cut by time constraints. Considering how few new stages there are in this game, you would have expected a Golden Sun stage for example to be in if Isaac is playable. Melee also had a much shorter development time than Ultimate. R.O.B. also doesn't seem to be strong evidence either as he lacks one not only in Brawl when he was introduced but also both versions of Smash 4 which suggests Sakurai isn't particularly interested in giving him a home stage (and there's no evidence for a planned but cut stage); considering R.O.B. is a real world peripheral it makes more sense for him to not have a home stage than a character from an RPG with its own lore.

I know this sucks, because Isaac could have been cool and I wanted Pokémon's seventh generation to get its own stage, but as far as I'm concerned my expectation for these are now close to none.

Also in the "Sound ► Series" section shown in the Direct, were shown series icons for series represented by characters and aren't "from one title rather than a series". More series could have not been shown yet and have to be unlocked, but considering all stages are available from start it would only make sense to have the music section for series without starter characters to be available from start. Basically if we get any new character from a currently unrepresented series their music is going to be in the "Other" section.

Asides from that I have a sort of crazy idea. Since Vergeben, who mostly gave us accurate informations so far, mentioned Minecraft content, what if the stage builder is Minecraft-themed, basically making the stage builder the Minecraft stage? Considering how Minecraft is all about terraforming I could totally see that happen. It's also a bit curious that we have not heard about the stage builder despite how much we've learned about Ultimate's stages. Most of all it would basically be a way for Steve to get in as a playable character despite the "no character from unrepresented series" logical conclusion I draw beforehand, since the stage builder is not going to be counted as part of the 103 stages (and is the only thing I expect when it comes to multiplayer stages outside of the confirmed 103), and as it would lack a proper stage Minecraft would have its music in the "other" section (which would also mean not many Minecraft musics but considering it's calm music which doesn't really fit a fighting game that would be fine, at least give us one more upbeat remix for Steve's trailer if he's in). Yeah I know it's a crazy idea, it's mostly speculation from weak evidence, so don't take it as if I'm genuinely expecting all of that to happen. I just can't wait to see this hypothesis inevitably debunked later... but if by chance this is what actually happens then I'm gonna be proud of it ahah.

 

[Zinith]

It's possible.

But Zelda is one of those series with more stages than fighters and none of the characters currently in game originated/featured in that game. Fun to think tho.

Funny you should mention that. I just looked it over and the only franchises that have less stages than they do characters in Ultimate is Pokemon, Castlevania, Fire Emblem and R.O.B. (who has none). Here's the post:

You know, I'm gonna expand on my stage-to-character ratio thing a bit to include EVERY installment. Note that I'm separating the 3DS and Wii U versions of Smash 4 and I'm making separate one for "pre-DLC" and "post-DLC" (that's FOUR Smash 4 lists. Yikes!!!). Once again, no Mii Fighters and Final Destination, Battlefield and Big Battlefield. Anyways...

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros.

[12 Fighters, 9 Stages]

1
0.5
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Melee

[26 Fighters, 27 Stages]

3
2
1
0.8
0.5
0.4
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[39 Fighters, 39 Stages]
Animal Crossing, Nintendo DS and Electroplankton each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1
0.67
0.6
0.5
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS pre-DLC

[48 Fighters, 32 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs and Find Mii each have 1 stage but no fighters

1
0.71
0.5
0.4
0.33
0.25
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS post-DLC

[55 Fighters, 40 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs and Find Mii each have 1 stage but no fighters

1
0.67
0.6
0.5
0.33
0.17
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U pre-DLC

[48 Fighters, 43 Stages]
Piotwings, Wii Sports and Wrecking Crew each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1
0.86
0.66
0.6
0.5
0.4
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U post-DLC

[55 Fighters, 52 Stages]
Pilotwings, Wii Sports, Wrecking Crew and Miiverse each have 1 stage but no fighters

2
1.5
1.14
1
0.66
0.5
0.33
0

Spoiler: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[70 Fighters, 100 Stages]
Nintendo DS, Electroplankton, Balloon Fight, Tomodachi Life, Nintendogs, Find Mii, Pilotwings, Wii Sports and Wrecking Crew each have 1 stage but no fighters

4
3
2.25
2
1.5
1.33
1
0.78
0.5
0.43
0

 

[Jetsurge]

My guess is it wasnt about which pokemon scored highest.

obviously the veterans scored high from every series so we got "everyone is here" with all characters returning, so pichu/pokemon trainer get in based on that.

I agree there probly wasnt a clear pokemon "winner" character, pokemons also big enough that although "sceptile" seems likely to the hardcore smash fans, a lot of random pokemon fans probly voted for whoever they just liked and popular pokemon in general may have matched sceptiles "hardcore smash fans" votes (obviously hes popular in general too but i dont think theres too many casual fans voting for him enough to be the clear winner over other popular pokemon). even if say sceptile did "win" i doubt it was double the next highest voted pokemon or at all enough of a majority to have it definitely win over many others which might have been nearly as highly voted for.

but the ballot didnt just ask you which character you want it asked WHY you want them.

and this is where i think trying to rep all the gens starts to make sense, i doubt one single pokemon was so overwhelmingly voted for it was clearly the winner there was probly a handful of popular pokemon that stood out and had about the same amount of votes. however if you were to look at the REASONS why a pokemon was voted for i think you could find a winning "reason" in "i want this pokemon in the game because this generation isnt represented in smash". im willing to bet that was extremely common in the ballot votes for pokemon, overwhelmingly so. we had three unrepped gens at the time of the ballot (no pichu in smash4) so every gen2/gen3/gen5 vote had the potential to have the reason behind that pokemons vote be "cause that generation doesnt have any pokemon in smash yet".

I wont start pushing the gardevoir leak here but this is my train of thought for why it makes so much sense to me cause the next step after deciding "ok try and rep all the gens, thats what the fans really want" is to then pick a pokemon thats popular enough to warrant inclusion in smash and has a create-able justifiable echo fighter candidate from the other missing gen. so again regardless of that leak this train of thought makes sense with ultimate for me... zelda is now representing different games in the series with its cast, the ballot almost certainly brought to sakurais attention the fact so many gens arent repped in smash, and the fighters this time seems to be based on ballot data and fan demand and i dont think theres a clear pokemon winner from pure number of votes.

It doesn't make sense, since by next year the whole thing will be pointless. It'll they want to rep gen 3 and 5 they could easily add Minum and Plusle and Emolga instead.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Really have no idea what this is supposed to mean tbh, the only thing I can gather is that none of the Zelda characters have a skyloft background which could very easily be used for impa but that's about it

I don't think we can read much from it in that way considering they didn't even give Dark Samus the one Metroid Prime stage in the game, for some reason they gave ZSS that one while Dark Samus got a Super Metroid stage.