Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pacack]

Genuine question for you guys. Since the Zelda franchise has done wonderfully with Breath of the Wild, it doesn't seem insane to me to think that a newcomer for the series would be considered. However, I'm seeing issues with every possible inclusion. (Note: I'm only listing negatives, not positives. I know that this list makes me sound like a negative nancy, but it's just me being skeptical. I don't hate any of these characters, and I'm not against any of their inclusions.)

Impa: No consistent design. While often a ninja or samurai styled Sheikah, she's also often a frail old woman, and it's the latter of the two that appears in Breath of the Wild. The most modern design of Impa which seems to be a competent fighter was not designed by an in-house Nintendo team, but rather by Koei Techmo.

Ganon (Beast): Already a final smash, no consistent design, and pretty consistently a giant. While an idea I like a lot, I don't see it happening realistically.

Tetra: Most recent appearance barring Hyrule Warriors was from a remake of a 16-year-old game from over 4 years ago on an underperforming console. While popular, she's also a third version of Zelda, which could prove to be a negative. Further, the most recent game in the series was in a more realistic style than Wind Waker, and they may want to promote a character from that side of the franchise instead.

Tingle: Very, very notorious and controversial character who hasn't appeared in a mainline game since Wind Waker (HD, I guess). Probably wouldn't go over well with the general fanbase.

Young Link: A third Link and either a clone or a transforming character who would likely take a lot of time to implement. While a veteran, there's a lot going against him too.

Ghirahim: Last non-Hyrule Warriors appearance was Skyward Sword in 2011 (a game that received mixed reception), he's a one-off villain, and he's another sword character, which may or may not be a negative.

Uncloned Ganondorf?: While hardly impossible, Ganondorf hasn't appeared since Twilight Princess HD, and he has been a clone for three straight entries in Smash Bros. at this point. He's not impossible, but it seems less likely to me with his history in the series so far.

Who on earth would work best? Does Legend of Zelda even need another newcomer? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[NintenRob]

My thoughts are always the same

Ignore everything
Add Skull Kid

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

At this point, adding a new Legend of Zelda fighter isn't all that mandatory, since all of the important characters from that series are already present.

 

[Opossum]

At this point, adding a new Legend of Zelda fighter isn't all that mandatory, since all of the important characters from that series are already present.

The same could be said (and oftentimes WAS said) for Super Mario post-Brawl. Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are at least a tier below Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser in importance.


That argument doesn't hold water.

 

[N3ON]

Genuine question for you guys. Since the Zelda franchise has done wonderfully with Breath of the Wild, it doesn't seem insane to me to think that a newcomer for the series would be considered. However, I'm seeing issues with every possible inclusion. (Note: I'm only listing negatives, not positives. I know that this list makes me sound like a negative nancy, but it's just me being skeptical. I don't hate any of these characters, and I'm not against any of their inclusions.)

Impa: No consistent design. While often a ninja or samurai styled Sheikah, she's also often a frail old woman, and it's the latter of the two that appears in Breath of the Wild. The most modern design of Impa which seems to be a competent fighter was not designed by an in-house Nintendo team, but rather by Koei Techmo.

Ganon (Beast): Already a final smash, no consistent design, and pretty consistently a giant. While an idea I like a lot, I don't see it happening realistically.

Tetra: Most recent appearance barring Hyrule Warriors was from a remake of a 16-year-old game from over 4 years ago on an underperforming console. While popular, she's also a third version of Zelda, which could prove to be a negative. Further, the most recent game in the series was in a more realistic style than Wind Waker, and they may want to promote a character from that side of the franchise instead.

Tingle: Very, very notorious and controversial character who hasn't appeared in a mainline game since Wind Waker (HD, I guess). Probably wouldn't go over well with the general fanbase.

Young Link: A third Link and either a clone or a transforming character who would likely take a lot of time to implement. While a veteran, there's a lot going against him too.

Ghirahim: Last non-Hyrule Warriors appearance was Skyward Sword in 2011 (a game that received mixed reception), he's a one-off villain, and he's another sword character, which may or may not be a negative.

Uncloned Ganondorf?: While hardly impossible, Ganondorf hasn't appeared since Twilight Princess HD, and he has been a clone for three straight entries in Smash Bros. at this point. He's not impossible, but it seems less likely to me with his history in the series so far.

Who on earth would work best? Does Legend of Zelda even need another newcomer? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I agree Zelda probably is set for a new character, given the growth of the series and the lack of expansion last time, but honestly it seems pertinent to exclude every character who didn't show up in BotW as a potential newcomer. That's just not how Smash seems to work. So that'd be Tingle, Young Link, Ghirahim, Tetra and all those other ones. Especially characters like Ghirahim, Midna, and Skull Kid, who were mostly centralized around a single, older title.

And it's true every plausible candidate has points against them, but such is true for nearly every candidate. You think the characters included in Smash 4 didn't have reasons against them as well? Personally I think a champion may be the likeliest outcome, as they are popular, prominent, and feasible. And characters such as Greninja prove Sakurai is not adverse to choosing a single character among equals. However, much as I wouldn't like it, I could see something like a BotW Link making it in as well, he has enough to work with to be unique. But three Links is too extra for me.

Lastly I'd consider Impa and Ganon being within the realm of possibility, as they had roles in BotW, but not particularly feasible ones, so I wouldn't exactly count on either.

I think the next Zelda character is really going to demonstrate how Smash prioritizes the recent above all, as there are plausible BotW inclusions, but frankly, compared to other choices from past Zelda titles, they don't hold much of a candle. However if and when we do get a BotW character, I also expect everyone to act like it made so much sense the whole time.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The same could be said (and oftentimes WAS said) for Super Mario post-Brawl. Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are at least a tier below Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser in importance.


That argument doesn't hold water.

Yeah, but Junior and Rosalina at least appear in multiple games, which isn't something that can be said about other Zelda characters.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The same could be said (and oftentimes WAS said) for Super Mario post-Brawl. Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are at least a tier below Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser in importance.


That argument doesn't hold water.

It should be noted, however, that Bowser Jr. has been a recurring character in the Super Mario series. Rosalina also appeared in more than one Super Mario mainstream title.

The Legend of Zelda is often cursed with having characters who only appear in a single mainstream title, and most of those one-time only characters only get trophy cameos or Assist Trophy roles. So while it may seem tempting to want the four Breath of the Wild champions as playable characters, it's not very likely, especially when you take into account that you can confront Calamity Ganon without taking back any of the Divine Beasts.

 

[Bowserlick]

If people want two Links over three, I would cut Toon Link. Breath of Wild Link is a descendant of the Toon Link family. He can be the quicker version of the two Adult Links, while keeping a cell-shaded Link in the mix.

BotW Link utilizes a stamina wheel as his side B: allowing him to run quicker, climb walls and glide until his energy pie is depleted. I also like the idea of him being able to unearth a metal chest out of the stage floor with Magnesis over time and kicking the chest open to get a more powerful weapon. Having the Lord of the Mountain as a mount on which he can fire arrows from could be worked into an Up B.

I am now under the opinion that he should not have a weapon switch or weapon decay and instead be able to upgrade his weapon with the treasure chest.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I am now under the opinion that he should not have a weapon switch or weapon decay and instead be able to upgrade his weapon with the treasure chest.

That and weapon breaking is 's shtick.

 

[NintenRob]

Reasons why Skull Kid should be in Smash Bros

1 Majora's Mask is probably the most discussed about Zelda game on the internet (well right now, BOTW is, but in future we'll see)

2 There was a lot of hype for Majora's Mask 3D. Remember operation moonfall?

3 Majora's Mask has received a lot of references in the games, especially the Majora's Mask itself appearing in ALBW, BOTW & Smash Wii U. Triforce Heroes, Smash and BOTW also have Fierce Deity Outfit.

4. It was Aonumas first Zelda game as director, and he still remains in charge the series making it an important game for Nintendo.

5. It was the first costume they decided to add in BOTW DLC https://mynintendonews.com/2017/06/29/aonuma-discusses-adding-majoras-mask-to-breath-of-the-wild/
Suggesting importance over other characters getting costumes

6 A lot of Demand for Skull Kid to be playable in Hyrule Warriors, which had a lot of excitement when Koei Tecmo finally added him to the game.

7 the character and game is a favourite of aonuma which you probably could have figured out from above points. So if asked about a Zelda character for Smash. You could bet he'd be up there

8 should probably mention the Skull Kid was in Oot and TP, so he's technically not a one off.

9 he guest appears in Monster Hunter, and it's not just the Mask. The felines get a full on skull kid outfit

10 Skull Kid is now on the cover of Hyrule Warriors definitive edition, usurping Tingle, acknowledging him as a popular character and the more popular character from Majora's Mask

11. The character is already somewhat on Sakurai's radar, not only being an assist trophy, but being the first assist trophy shown off. And in the photo contest that he chose the winners of, one of the winners was a clear Majora's Mask reference even featuring Skull Kid

12. Hyrule Warriors isn't his only spin-off appearance. In Link's Crossbow Training, he served as the penultimate challenge of the game. Which might actually explain why Linkle faces off against Skull Kid in legends and the adventure mode credits sequence....

13. An amiibo was planned for him, only scrapped because they couldn't think of what to do with it, and only the amiibo was scrapped, he still got a figure.

14. Majora's Mask got 2 3DS themes and a Nintendo 3DS special edition.

15 Majora's Mask does get a badge arcade room, 6 panels to be specific. Unbelievable, I know

Thats all I have for now, but I could probably go on if I had to, talking about more reference in cartoons like Uncle Grandpa and World of Gumball

But I need a break

Oh and

16 he'd be awesome

 

[Deleted member]

There is one large request for Final Smashes I have to make. ( I am sure someone said this multiple time ).
The developers should change Falco's, and I beg them to do that. Landmaster is just so lazy. Falco prefers the air and is seen using air vehicles. Why not make it into a ship where it shoots lasers? That would be cool. I do not think he even uses a land master. Lucina's makes sense why it would be cloned, Dark Pit not really. Sheik's final smash can stay, but a change would be nice I guess.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

If Ganondorf isn't decloned, the director officially doesn't give a **** about him.

 

[Schnee117]

I do not think he even uses a land master.

He does in Assault but that's via Multiplayer.

Dark Pit not really.

Sakurai didn't think the Three Sacred Treasures were fitting for Dark Pit. It was one of the reasons Dark Pit became a clone.
Give him his Footdive you cowards

 

[PeridotGX]

If Ganondorf isn't decloned, the director officially doesn't give a **** about him.

Isn't Ganondorf Sakurai's main? I wouldn't want to remake any of my favorites. Best Case Scenario, they reboot Ganondord and port the original moveset to an F-Zero character.

 

[Deleted member]

He does in Assault but that's via Multiplayer.



Sakurai didn't think the Three Sacred Treasures were fitting for Dark Pit. It was one of the reasons Dark Pit became a clone.
Give him his Footdive you cowards

Oh. Well that is multi-player. Either way, Falco prefers using the air.
Dark Pit could have a better Final Smash, not being a Zelda clone. I am fine with it as well though, and Sakurai does need a break.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Dark Pit could have a better Final Smash, not being a Zelda clone.

Considering who Dark Pit is though, having a cloned Final Smash is just perfect for him

 

[Schnee117]

Oh. Well that is multi-player. Either way, Falco prefers using the air.

Yeah definitely. He should use an Arwing seeing as that's the main vehicle used in the games.
It not being a Final Smash at all is honestly surprising given that fact really. Maybe Sakurai didn't think he could do it justice but honestly a Snake/ZSS style final smash would work fine for it.

 

[Lukingordex]

If Ganondorf isn't decloned, the director officially doesn't give a **** about him.

Isn't Ganondorf Sakurai's main? I wouldn't want to remake any of my favorites. Best Case Scenario, they reboot Ganondord and port the original moveset to an F-Zero character.

Well, he didn't receive any major changes in moveset ever and he has been in the series since melee, so i think it's very unlikely Ganondorf would be decloned at this point

 

[Guybrush20X6]

For all people go on about Ganondorf, I think Zelda herself is the one in need of a rework.

She was designed to complement Sheik as the finisher... who proved to be unnecessary when Sheik's turned out to be the top tier all by herself. You can't fix that by giving her a phantom.

Or at least, stop making Din's Fire make her helpless, you let Fox and Falco double up their recoveries in 4 so why not let her slow her fall an itty bitty touch?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For all people go on about Ganondorf, I think Zelda herself is the one in need of a rework.

She was designed to complement Sheik as the finisher... who proved to be unnecessary when Sheik's turned out to be the top tier all by herself. You can't fix that by giving her a phantom.

Or at least, stop making Din's Fire make her helpless, you let Fox and Falco double up their recoveries in 4 so why not let her slow her fall an itty bitty touch?

Yeah, it's pointless to make her helpless after that. It only hurts her overall, and she needs buffs as is. Another thing to do is give Naryu's Love more knockback, as it already has a nice reflection option. Her range is also really bad, as are her jumps. Her power attacks are extremely difficult to hit, due to her terrible approach options. Maybe she needs something like a better Dash attack to somewhat hold the opponent in place with a continuous damaging move(but not for too long, of course), like the various infinite jabs you can do by tapping A over and over.

As for Ganondorf, Sakurai caring about the veteran players is why he hasn't been de-cloned. He doesn't want to alienate previous players. There's already enough mechanic changes that either get new players in or sometimes pushes them out. Changing the characters too much only gets less players, not more, in his view. Many are used to the old movesets, and are willing to adapt, but only if the moveset is changed up a bit, not completely gone.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Revali is already in Smash

Lucina's makes sense why it would be cloned, Dark Pit not really.

I just wanna say, that Dark Pit's actually makes sense. He was an easy to make clone character that took little effort to create, they just pasted Pit's moveset, created a model for the Electroshock Arm and copied Zelda's FS while recoloring it purple and voila.
Now, they should definitively take the chance to declone him in the future similarly to what they did to Falco, Ganon and Roy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For all people go on about Ganondorf, I think Zelda herself is the one in need of a rework.

She was designed to complement Sheik as the finisher... who proved to be unnecessary when Sheik's turned out to be the top tier all by herself. You can't fix that by giving her a phantom.

Or at least, stop making Din's Fire make her helpless, you let Fox and Falco double up their recoveries in 4 so why not let her slow her fall an itty bitty touch?

There's obviously a lot that Zelda needs improvements on. For one example, her standard ground attack can't have such a long start-up duration.

 

[Bowserlick]

If Zelda cannot hold her own better than Rosalina without her Luma, the whole setup is flawed.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Genuine question for you guys. Since the Zelda franchise has done wonderfully with Breath of the Wild, it doesn't seem insane to me to think that a newcomer for the series would be considered. However, I'm seeing issues with every possible inclusion. (Note: I'm only listing negatives, not positives. I know that this list makes me sound like a negative nancy, but it's just me being skeptical. I don't hate any of these characters, and I'm not against any of their inclusions.)

Impa: No consistent design. While often a ninja or samurai styled Sheikah, she's also often a frail old woman, and it's the latter of the two that appears in Breath of the Wild. The most modern design of Impa which seems to be a competent fighter was not designed by an in-house Nintendo team, but rather by Koei Techmo.

Ganon (Beast): Already a final smash, no consistent design, and pretty consistently a giant. While an idea I like a lot, I don't see it happening realistically.

Tetra: Most recent appearance barring Hyrule Warriors was from a remake of a 16-year-old game from over 4 years ago on an underperforming console. While popular, she's also a third version of Zelda, which could prove to be a negative. Further, the most recent game in the series was in a more realistic style than Wind Waker, and they may want to promote a character from that side of the franchise instead.

Tingle: Very, very notorious and controversial character who hasn't appeared in a mainline game since Wind Waker (HD, I guess). Probably wouldn't go over well with the general fanbase.

Young Link: A third Link and either a clone or a transforming character who would likely take a lot of time to implement. While a veteran, there's a lot going against him too.

Ghirahim: Last non-Hyrule Warriors appearance was Skyward Sword in 2011 (a game that received mixed reception), he's a one-off villain, and he's another sword character, which may or may not be a negative.

Uncloned Ganondorf?: While hardly impossible, Ganondorf hasn't appeared since Twilight Princess HD, and he has been a clone for three straight entries in Smash Bros. at this point. He's not impossible, but it seems less likely to me with his history in the series so far.

Who on earth would work best? Does Legend of Zelda even need another newcomer? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

While I wouldn't say it's necessary for Zelda to get a newcomer, it's not unnecessary either. You aren't wrong at all, by the way. I think there's some considerable issues going against all of the "big" contenders for a newcomer as well.

Young Link I can't possibly see coming back unless Sakurai decided to bring him back in favor of Toon Link all of the sudden, which I can't really see happening at this point considering he was passed up in favor of Toon Link a second time.

I think it's worth nothing that Toon Zelda was at least on Sakurai's mind at one point; she has data in Brawl that was ultimately left unfinished, along with some "Toon Sheik" data. Whether that name actually referred to Tetra or not, though, can't really be said for sure. Tetra herself, I don't really see her as a third Zelda as being as much of a problem as a third Link would be. Sheik is drastically different from Zelda in both appearance and gameplay and the same could apply to Tetra. She does have a sizeable fanbase from what I've seen, though, the same can be said about characters like Midna and Ghirahim, who, great as they were as characters, were one-shots. Tetra comes pretty close to being in the same boat as them, though at the very least she did make a second appearance in Phantom Hourglass. I don't know if that makes much of a difference for her, though.

Personally, I think Impa is the most likely out of the bunch right now. It's true that she may not be very consistent in design but I'm not sure design is much of an issue for her. Sheik for example, while still resembling her appearance in OoT, has been using a Twilight Princess-style design since Brawl, despite the fact that Sheik never appeared in TP itself.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

For all people go on about Ganondorf, I think Zelda herself is the one in need of a rework.

She was designed to complement Sheik as the finisher... who proved to be unnecessary when Sheik's turned out to be the top tier all by herself. You can't fix that by giving her a phantom.

Or at least, stop making Din's Fire make her helpless, you let Fox and Falco double up their recoveries in 4 so why not let her slow her fall an itty bitty touch?

On Zelda, I can agree with this. Zelda definitely needs some buffs and reworks such as a better Din's Fire (Not causing free falls is a start). Perhaps Din's Fire could have better controls for more utility.

As for other Legend of Zelda characters, I think Revali's outfit could look great on Falco if crossover outfits are a thing.

 

[Phil Time]

Please no.

That meme got frequent enough that the joke stopped being funny.

Besides we have more modern memes.

Like Karen.

Reckless Safety Notice Man is in literally over 1,000 video games.

How many video games has Karen been in?

Plus, we can finally see the epic duel of Reckless Safety Notice Man vs. Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

As for Ganondorf, Sakurai caring about the veteran players is why he hasn't been de-cloned. He doesn't want to alienate previous players.

There's no reason he couldn't declone Ganondorf and keep the old moveset for a new character. Hell, he could just have two Ganondorf movesets.

 

[Deleted member]

Out of boredom and on a not-so-serious note I made a tier-list of the 1st-party series talked in this thread since its beginning from the most discussed to the least discussed:

So-much-discussed-it's-not-even-funny tier



A tier


/

B tier





C tier





Which series? tier





Barely-counted-as-series tier


Feel free to makes fixes if there're some inaccuracies.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's no reason he couldn't declone Ganondorf and keep the old moveset for a new character. Hell, he could just have two Ganondorf movesets.

Except that's not how it works. People associate the moveset with the character(to the point that the moveset already defines who the character is in Smash. They're one in the same). He could make an entirely new Ganondorf, sure(like Toon Ganondorf), but that's kind of the only real chance we have for a non-clone Dorf moveset at best. I wouldn't much count on that at this point, though.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Except that's not how it works. People associate the moveset with the character(to the point that the moveset already defines who the character is in Smash. They're one in the same). He could make an entirely new Ganondorf, sure(like Toon Ganondorf), but that's kind of the only real chance we have for a non-clone Dorf moveset at best. I wouldn't much count on that at this point, though.

Why do you think that's how it works?

I think it's more likely that fans of the character Ganondorf want a more canonical moveset than fans of the smash fighter Ganondorf care that it's wearing a Ganondorf skin.

If that is in fact the case, keeping the smash fighter Ganondorf a clone can only truly be said to be for the happiness of the fans if the happiness of the latter outweighs the happiness of the former.

This might be either because their happiness is treated equally, but there or more of the latter than the former, or because the happiness of the latter is valued more than the happiness of the former.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why do you think that's how it works?

I think it's more likely that fans of the character Ganondorf want a more canonical moveset than fans of the smash fighter Ganondorf care that it's wearing a Ganondorf skin.

If that is in fact the case, keeping the smash fighter Ganondorf a clone can only truly be said to be for the happiness of the fans if the happiness of the latter outweighs the happiness of the former.

This might be either because their happiness is treated equally, but there or more of the latter than the former, or because the happiness of the latter is valued more than the happiness of the former.

I'm a huge fan of Ganondorf. I love his moveset the way it is, and at best, maybe a sword move or two for some A attacks would make sense. His whole point is power. He uses power moves. It's honestly severely fitting for what he does. He didn't even use a sword till after Melee existed, as the tech demo doesn't actually count as a canonical moveset either. All he's done so far is physically attack and use magic. Funny thing is? That's still what he does. They just added his sword for a taunt and a custom move, still... exactly what he's done before. And magical jabs like Warlock Punch are still magic. It's just dark magic. It's honestly no different from what Zelda does, who has barely any magic moves that are projectiles(Din's Fire, her Up Air. And well her Transformation and Phantom Knight summon in 4. Rest are basically glorified physical attacks like a Monk... which doesn't really make them any less magic).

He's not going to alienate the fans of his originally introduced moveset. That's why it's "not how it works". This is the exact same reason he made Dr. Mario into a full character instead of a costume. It only hurts previous fans while adding nothing useful to the game. He's never transferred the same moveset over to another character(as noted before, Toon Link is more a graphical update, and even then, he actually plays quite differently from Young Link, who is almost identical to regular Link, bar size and range. Toon Link has tons of different moves to separate them, showing how he's a different kind of clone). He's not going to change the philosophy for no good reason, and he doesn't consider new fans to "outweigh" the veterans and clearly never has. He already updated the moveset to make him play quite differently outside of some animations, which is honestly the most to realistically expect.

Maybe someday we could get another Ganondorf, but the moveset is pretty much there for life with tweaks at best with Sakurai in charge. There's a reason he doesn't just throw out popular veterans either. He cares a lot about previous fans and sees no reason to make them feel unwanted. It's not like the moveset isn't fitting at all. People conveniently forget why it actually still works, because it's what Ganondorf really does, be a powerhouse with a murderous vibe and tanking stuff in games. It's quite common for him(in both Ganon and Ganondorf form) to walk through attacks and shrug them off, very similar to what he does. It's also well known that he's physically and immensely strong(and that's not entirely because of the Triforce of Power. He's actually that strong even before it. He doesn't even use it for much in some games beyond transforming into Ganon, as he is beyond physically fit even in WW where his body clearly looks rather old and out of shape, yet there he is, not just punching Link, but moving around like a rabbit).

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't think you really have much idea what fans of the character Ganondorf really want. Maybe check out the Ganondorf project on the custom board. Nothing you've said has changed my mind or made me think my argument is flawed. If that's the best you have, we should stop wasting each other's time.

 

[Luminario]

Zelda's Phantom really doesn't work that well with her kit. It's too frail, disappears too quickly, and has too much endlag to work as a wall with Din's Fire too laggy a projectile to work with it too, the 10 second regeneration is way too long for such a situational attack (the nerf from 6 seconds was far from necessary), and you can't cancel it so people can see it coming a mile away. It's yet another one of her attacks balanced purely on it's kill power.
I've been trying to think of ways it could be improved that isn't purely just a mechanical change like cancelling or less endlag, but no clear improvement is coming to mind. Potential ones are having the Phantom do multiple slashes while moving ahead slowly instead of just one slash and stand there, giving Zelda more time to breathe while pressuring the opponent, or giving the Phantom a defensive stance where shielding during charge has it pop up and hold it's shield up to stop all damage to the Phantom from the front, making it a much more reliable wall. The defensive stance idea could be expanded on to make it counter too so opponents have to be extra careful.
Of course none of this really helps the fact that most opponents can just stand a certain distance away and just wait for Zelda to commit to one of her many many unsafe moves and go in for the punish.

 

[Deleted member]

Reckless Safety Notice Man is in literally over 1,000 video games.

How many video games has Karen been in?

Plus, we can finally see the epic duel of Reckless Safety Notice Man vs. Wii Fit Trainer.

Ooh boy.

I'm a huge fan of Ganondorf. I love his moveset the way it is, and at best, maybe a sword move or two for some A attacks would make sense. His whole point is power. He uses power moves. It's honestly severely fitting for what he does. He didn't even use a sword till after Melee existed, as the tech demo doesn't actually count as a canonical moveset either. All he's done so far is physically attack and use magic. Funny thing is? That's still what he does. They just added his sword for a taunt and a custom move, still... exactly what he's done before. And magical jabs like Warlock Punch are still magic. It's just dark magic. It's honestly no different from what Zelda does, who has barely any magic moves that are projectiles(Din's Fire, her Up Air. And well her Transformation and Phantom Knight summon in 4. Rest are basically glorified physical attacks like a Monk... which doesn't really make them any less magic).

He's not going to alienate the fans of his originally introduced moveset. That's why it's "not how it works". This is the exact same reason he made Dr. Mario into a full character instead of a costume. It only hurts previous fans while adding nothing useful to the game. He's never transferred the same moveset over to another character(as noted before, Toon Link is more a graphical update, and even then, he actually plays quite differently from Young Link, who is almost identical to regular Link, bar size and range. Toon Link has tons of different moves to separate them, showing how he's a different kind of clone). He's not going to change the philosophy for no good reason, and he doesn't consider new fans to "outweigh" the veterans and clearly never has. He already updated the moveset to make him play quite differently outside of some animations, which is honestly the most to realistically expect.

Maybe someday we could get another Ganondorf, but the moveset is pretty much there for life with tweaks at best with Sakurai in charge. There's a reason he doesn't just throw out popular veterans either. He cares a lot about previous fans and sees no reason to make them feel unwanted. It's not like the moveset isn't fitting at all. People conveniently forget why it actually still works, because it's what Ganondorf really does, be a powerhouse with a murderous vibe and tanking stuff in games. It's quite common for him(in both Ganon and Ganondorf form) to walk through attacks and shrug them off, very similar to what he does. It's also well known that he's physically and immensely strong(and that's not entirely because of the Triforce of Power. He's actually that strong even before it. He doesn't even use it for much in some games beyond transforming into Ganon, as he is beyond physically fit even in WW where his body clearly looks rather old and out of shape, yet there he is, not just punching Link, but moving around like a rabbit).

I agree with this. Ganondorf's moveset is satisfying on it's own. The powerhouse move-set represents Ganon more than the canon move-set. I really hope they do not change his move-set, it would feel like an alienation method or something to me.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The powerhouse move-set represents Ganon more than the canon move-set.

How can a non-canon moveset better represent a character than a canon moveset? That seems wrong by definition.

 

[Lukingordex]

For Zelda's Phantom, i'd let her keep it after charging it and she could throw it anytime she wishes. Would instantly make the move much better.

 

[Deleted member]

How can a non-canon moveset better represent a character than a canon moveset? That seems wrong by definition.

Did you read Verde Coeden Scalesworth 's latest post? It just suits Ganondorf better than a move with a tri-force or sword. People liked Ganondorf's style since Melee, and I am sure they will continue to like it in Smash for Switch. Even if he is still really bad in Smash 4, people still like him.

Ganondorf is actually talked about in Smash 4 more than some middle tiers or a few high tiers even, he is just a popular character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

It just suits

This is insufficient. How does it suit him more than canonical moves? And why is this principle acceptable for Ganondorf, but not for other characters? Link is a guy who uses melee weapons and lots of items. Why not give him a club, Fox's lasers, and Dedede's waddle dees? Does that not represent Link in the same way that non-canonical moves that vaguely fit Ganondorf's theme represent Ganondorf?

 

[Deleted member]

This is insufficient. How does it suit him more than canonical moves? And why is this principle acceptable for Ganondorf, but not for other characters? Link is a guy who uses melee weapons and lots of items. Why not give him a club, Fox's lasers, and Dedede's waddle dees? Does that not represent Link in the same way that non-canonical moves that vaguely fit Ganondorf's theme represent Ganondorf?

Ganondorf's moves are canon-enough. He is a dark powerhouse even without the Tri-force. It is sad to hear people wanting a change, because Ganondorf's move-set "needs more canon in it, or aww he is a weak character". His move-set is not the problem, it is the lag for him. Making Ganondorf fast would be weird anyway.

 

[Staarih]

While the current moveset may suit Ganondorf, its still derived from being a clone and I don’t think anyone would really oppose an actually unique/canon moveset for him. That said, I understand why Ganondorf is kept as is, people are accustomed to play him like this and too drastic changes might not go down well to some Smash/Ganondorf fans. A few tweaks here and there would be great gor Ganondorf still, at least.

Which series? tier


Feel free to makes fixes if there're some inaccuracies.

I’d argue Xenoblade is discussed more than that really, given XC2.