Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was just re-reading Frostwraith's article on Ganondorf himself via SourceGaming. Most of his animations are remade since Brawl based upon the actual games. He's actually really clone to canon.

The thing I like about Ganondorf in Smash is how the moveset completely fits his personality perfectly. The whole point of who he is is literally an extremely physical and capable powerhouse. A few more magic moves would be nice though, mostly his Dead Man's Volley, but he doesn't feel really inaccurate at all at this point. The whole weapon thing is more Ganon's shtick anyway, his Moblin form. It's not something that was ultimately that important to his human form and was just added as more a part of some battles, but isn't inherent to who he is.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

While the current moveset may suit Ganondorf, its still derived from being a clone and I don’t think anyone would really oppose an actually unique/canon moveset for him.

They're in this thread.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'd keep Ganondorf how he is. After 3 games of having the same moveset, it's going to be hard to do anything major without taking away the moves we've all grown accustomed to.

At this point, adding a new Legend of Zelda fighter isn't all that mandatory, since all of the important characters from that series are already present.

The same could be said (and oftentimes WAS said) for Super Mario post-Brawl. Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are at least a tier below Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser in importance.

That argument doesn't hold water.

Yeah, but Junior and Rosalina at least appear in multiple games, which isn't something that can be said about other Zelda characters.

I think it's also worth remembering that Rosalina was added in Smash long before she began appearing in everything. At the time when the Smash 4 roster was finalized, she had only made appearances in the two Galaxy games and two MK games. Bowser Jr. almost got cut due to a diminishing amount of development time, so that means Rosalina and her four appearances was enough for her to be deemed more important than characters who had been appearing in virtually every Mario game for the past twelve years.

Iconicness is a big factor when it comes to choosing characters, but it isn't the only one. The characters from BotW are still fairly new to the world. If you can support a FE character who will likely make one appearance in the main series, then you can't really say a LoZ character is unlikely if they have the exact criteria as the FE character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

After 3 games of having the same moveset, it's going to be hard to do anything major without taking away the moves we've all grown accustomed to.

The possibilities of giving his current moveset to another character or simply having two Ganondorf movesets have already been proposed.

As far as what moves people are accustomed to, I don't see why it matters. If maintaining play styles mattered, the physics wouldn't change so much between games.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Zelda's Phantom really doesn't work that well with her kit. It's too frail, disappears too quickly, and has too much endlag to work as a wall with Din's Fire too laggy a projectile to work with it too, the 10 second regeneration is way too long for such a situational attack (the nerf from 6 seconds was far from necessary), and you can't cancel it so people can see it coming a mile away. It's yet another one of her attacks balanced purely on it's kill power.
I've been trying to think of ways it could be improved that isn't purely just a mechanical change like cancelling or less endlag, but no clear improvement is coming to mind. Potential ones are having the Phantom do multiple slashes while moving ahead slowly instead of just one slash and stand there, giving Zelda more time to breathe while pressuring the opponent, or giving the Phantom a defensive stance where shielding during charge has it pop up and hold it's shield up to stop all damage to the Phantom from the front, making it a much more reliable wall. The defensive stance idea could be expanded on to make it counter too so opponents have to be extra careful.
Of course none of this really helps the fact that most opponents can just stand a certain distance away and just wait for Zelda to commit to one of her many many unsafe moves and go in for the punish.

It also doesn't help knowing that Zelda doesn't have a single attack that hits before frame 5. The d-tilt and d-smash are her quickest attacks, but the former's ending lag is just awful, and both attacks are outranked by attacks that strike sooner, such as Charizard's standard attack (which hits on frame 4).

There's literally no excuse to see Zelda's standard attack have a longer start-up duration than most fighters' grab animations. Just reducing that attack's start-up lag so that it hits on frame 3 would be a huge start.

I'd keep Ganondorf how he is. After 3 games of having the same moveset, it's going to be hard to do anything major without taking away the moves we've all grown accustomed to.

Keeping the same moveset is one thing, but if that specific moveset doesn't see any kind of improvements, then there's going to be problems.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Certain veteran movesets just need that flashyness that newcomers often do have. Why isn't Samus shooting projectiles for her regular moves and Smash attacks like Mega Man? Ganondorf could use the same moveset but with increased reach due to darkness surrounding him, and his arms can grow bigger potentially like how he fights in Hyrule Warriors. That dark claw could really make his moveset more spicy and give him greater reach as well as more power? Zelda should use more magic overall in her moveset and a serious buff to Phantom Slash and Din's Fire, and even Nayru's Love. That'd make her interessting.

Also about a Zelda newcomer, I still think Impa IS the choice. Even if her role in BOTW is dissapointing, it's still heavy Sheikah lore and all the abilities Link has with the Sheikah Slate could translate over to her easily. Impa stated in-game that she also fought Calamity Ganon, there's a probable chance of there being a Young Impa in the sketches of BOTW, or they could use Paya as a base and give her the hat of Impa. Maybe even a Sheikah mask like that one boss...

I still would like a next Zelda game which would be a prequel to BOTW but I don't think it's too likely anymore.

Anyway Impa is easily the biggest name in Zelda not yet playable. She's in many ways sort of the Toad / Rosalina of the Zelda franchise. Only thing she definitely NOT has going for her is a stable design, but I'd say Hyrule Warriors has redeemed that a little. The game is AGAIN being released on Switch, making it a game that has been ported from Wii U to all generations since it was released. That's quite damn big. And I still hope for more influence of movesets on HW than BOTW for the current cast.

Cause we keep ignoring Hyrule Warriors, but Nintendo apperantly thinks it's a HUGE deal for porting it up to 2 times, and also branching it out to Fire Emblem Warriors. I keep saying this, but Hyrule Warriors is a pretty damn big deal. It's a 3rd party developer branching out the Zelda franchise, and makes a ton of Zelda characters playable for the very first time, in an game that's all about fighting. How should such things be ignored for Smash? Which has playable characters, fighting? I think we need to loosen the **** up with this notion that only canon-material is viable. Smash is non-canon by itself.

With that said, Impa for Smash Switch!

 

[UserKev]

Certain veteran movesets just need that flashyness that newcomers often do have. Why isn't Samus shooting projectiles for her regular moves and Smash attacks like Mega Man? Ganondorf could use the same moveset but with increased reach due to darkness surrounding him, and his arms can grow bigger potentially like how he fights in Hyrule Warriors. That dark claw could really make his moveset more spicy and give him greater reach as well as more power? Zelda should use more magic overall in her moveset and a serious buff to Phantom Slash and Din's Fire, and even Nayru's Love. That'd make her interessting.

Also about a Zelda newcomer, I still think Impa IS the choice. Even if her role in BOTW is dissapointing, it's still heavy Sheikah lore and all the abilities Link has with the Sheikah Slate could translate over to her easily. Impa stated in-game that she also fought Calamity Ganon, there's a probable chance of there being a Young Impa in the sketches of BOTW, or they could use Paya as a base and give her the hat of Impa. Maybe even a Sheikah mask like that one boss...

I still would like a next Zelda game which would be a prequel to BOTW but I don't think it's too likely anymore.

Anyway Impa is easily the biggest name in Zelda not yet playable. She's in many ways sort of the Toad / Rosalina of the Zelda franchise. Only thing she definitely NOT has going for her is a stable design, but I'd say Hyrule Warriors has redeemed that a little. The game is AGAIN being released on Switch, making it a game that has been ported from Wii U to all generations since it was released. That's quite damn big. And I still hope for more influence of movesets on HW than BOTW for the current cast.

Cause we keep ignoring Hyrule Warriors, but Nintendo apperantly thinks it's a HUGE deal for porting it up to 2 times, and also branching it out to Fire Emblem Warriors. I keep saying this, but Hyrule Warriors is a pretty damn big deal. It's a 3rd party developer branching out the Zelda franchise, and makes a ton of Zelda characters playable for the very first time, in an game that's all about fighting. How should such things be ignored for Smash? Which has playable characters, fighting? I think we need to loosen the **** up with this notion that only canon-material is viable. Smash is non-canon by itself.

With that said, Impa for Smash Switch!

I won't deny this. Its Impa's time. Sakurai seemly struggles to add a literal Zelda newcomer when its in Nintendo's biggest. Why can't exceptions be made for it? This is why I realized I never exactly took Smash speculation seriously. I just come to post a quick vent and sign out.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, Impa is a pretty big character at this point. Probably has gotten bigger than Tingle now, who dwarfed her for quite some time.

That said, Hyrule Warriors being a spin-off is why people don't really consider it relevant to getting a character. And there's thoughts that it might not even be used to inspire movesets(although ironically it did take some moves from Smash for Ganondorf).

 

[Cosmic77]

Keeping the same moveset is one thing, but if that specific moveset doesn't see any kind of improvements, then there's going to be problems.

I know Ganondorf could use some improvements, but do casuals really care if he's top tier material? I see people play as him all the time online, so his flaws must not matter that much to them. No need to change something that most people already like, right?

Besides, Ganondorf is already an absolute beast at dealing damage. There needs to be some kind of glaring flaw to make up for that, and I think his current speed and recovery do a decent job of compensating.

I still would like a next Zelda game which would be a prequel to BOTW but I don't think it's too likely anymore.

That's funny. I've been keeping my fingers crossed for a direct sequel to BotW over a prequel. That ending didn't quite satisfy me.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know Ganondorf could use some improvements, but do casuals really care if he's top tier material? I see people play as him all the time online, so his flaws must not matter that much to them. No need to change something that most people already like, right?

Besides, Ganondorf is already an absolute beast at dealing damage. There needs to be some kind of glaring flaw to make up for that, and I think his current speed and recovery do a decent job of compensating.

I'm not suggesting that Ganondorf should be buffed to top tier levels; he pretty much has to be a slowpoke to balance out his attack power. He just needs improvements for some of his notable attacks, like Dark Dive.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not suggesting that Ganondorf should be buffed to top tier levels; he pretty much has to be a slowpoke to balance out his attack power. He just needs improvements for some of his notable attacks, like Dark Dive.

Fair enough. I just don't want Ganondorf to be buffed to the point to where speed and ending lag is no longer an issue. There needs to be a decent amount of cons to make up for that insane power.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Fair enough. I just don't want Ganondorf to be buffed to the point to where speed and ending lag is no longer an issue. There needs to be a decent amount of cons to make up for that insane power.

Yeah I want Ganondorf to stay as a slow and powerful fighter, but some of his attacks just aren't good enough to be using. I've already mentioned how terrible Warlock Thrust is, but that attack can easily be improved by implementing super armor frames and the sweetspot receives better knockback growth (but not too much, since the attack has to be less powerful than Warlock Punch with its shorter start-up lag).

Likewise, the n-air's first hit needs to deal better knockback, just in case Ganondorf touches ground before delivering the second kick; both kicks would have KO potential, but it would be the second kick that deals the most knockback.

On one final note, adding some degree of armor for Ganondorf's u-tilt would probably be a good idea, since its start-up has to be long to balance out its high damage output; the armor would make it harder for opponents to interrupt the attack if they don't transition over to grab moves.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Eh, Impa is a pretty big character at this point. Probably has gotten bigger than Tingle now, who dwarfed her for quite some time.

That said, Hyrule Warriors being a spin-off is why people don't really consider it relevant to getting a character. And there's thoughts that it might not even be used to inspire movesets(although ironically it did take some moves from Smash for Ganondorf).

Then why would Tingle be bigger than Impa previously? Because all Tingle really had where spin-off titles. He also is notoriously unpopular with people, one of the very few characters I can think of with a equal strong hate base as a fan base. It kept him out of Twilight Princess for example.

Also, as of now, Smash has represented the GameCube era of Zelda twice now by having the character cast be based on Twilight Princess and Wind Waker only. Those are the only "important" games in the Zelda lore that Impa missed out on, and then again, she's still spoken off in TP in the Hidden Village and has a ancestor with Impaz, and there's a cameo of her in Wind Waker's Hyrule Castle camber where the Master Sword sleeps.

Anyway, to me it's logical and clear that Impa should be the next Zelda character. But I can see a BOTW Champion getting lucky and get in before her, or with a original moveset and Impa is either a clone, semi-clone, DLC character, or skin for Sheik. In which case I also wouldn't complain.

I think it's likely there'll be a Skyward Sword HD remake soon tho, maybe with additional content or more open world exploration. That would make Impa pretty damn relevant again.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Tingle is bigger than Impa because Impa has **** all to do in most games. Tingle got a costume as fanservice DLC in BotW alongside the Phantom armour. Impa was an old hag in that game

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Speaking of Zelda, any else notice that only Mario spin-offs are ever given Smash representation?

Pokemon and Zelda have had lot of spin-offs but besides the Pokemon stages sharing the name of Pokemon Stadium and the Zero-ONE trophy, there's been nothing of either. From Smash you'd think Pokemon was nothing but the Pokemon and like, three people.

 

[Bowserlick]

Gannondorf should have running armor. Similar to the concept of the X-men mutant Juggernaut that cannot be stopped as long as he has momentum.

Zelda's Down Smash should leave a rune on the ground that explodes if walked upon by another character. The damage is related to how long she charged the move.

 

[Deleted member]

If Smash for Switch were to make a Subspace, what would you want it to be? More mature, the way it is, or less complicated and less mature?

Brawl's Subspace was amazing, and the only flaws were the final boss ( Tabuu ) ( In Intense mode ) being too easy, and it needing slightly more character story. I personally loved Subspace and it was a little sad to see it go.

I would totally take it over Smash Tour, which is just boring for a lot of people. I actually tried it and it was not even that fun, it was just "eh". Way too easy as well. I understand why Sakurai would take it down, either it being too hard or because people uploaded clips when they were discovered and him saying that they had to earn the Subspace clips. Either way, Subspace Emissary for Smash for Switch.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Brawl's Subspace was amazing, and the only flaws were the final boss ( Tabuu ) ( In Intense mode ) being too easy, and it needing slightly more character story.

Subspace Emissary is a pretty good allegory: https://ogiuemaniax.com/2009/11/30/lets-over-analyze-the-subspace-emissary/

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If Smash for Switch were to make a Subspace, what would you want it to be? More mature, the way it is, or less complicated and less mature?

Well, if it keeps the rating the Smash 4 games had, it will definitely be less mature. That's a given.

But really, I just want it to not take itself seriously for most of it. Just be silly and goofy with a super basic premise about Master Hand merging the franchises and setting up a tournament to see who's the best fighter, but there's more than it seems to it.

I don't need sadness and Purple Flurp bombs to have a good adventure in Smash.

 

[Opossum]

Well, if it keeps the rating the Smash 4 games had, it will definitely be less mature. That's a given.

But really, I just want it to not take itself seriously for most of it. Just be silly and goofy with a super basic premise about Master Hand merging the franchises and setting up a tournament to see who's the best fighter, but there's more than it seems to it.

I don't need sadness and Purple Flurp bombs to have a good adventure in Smash.

The SSE definitely wasn't what made Brawl a T rated game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The SSE definitely wasn't what made Brawl a T rated game.

I was about to counter the fact that some moments can get pretty sad and fark and stuff but then I remembered Super Paper Mario got rated E so...

Yeah, you're right.

 

[Deleted member]

The SSE definitely wasn't what made Brawl a T rated game.

Honestly, what did? Legitimate question here.
Because the only major difference I can think of between Smash 4 and Brawl aside from the more gritty atmosphere of the latter is that there are far less panty shots available in the former. Was that really enough of a difference for the ESRB?

And Metal Gear stuff, but I don't think what was in Brawl would have been enough to boost the rating, right?

 

[Krysco]

I still fail to see the issue with giving Ganon his own fully uncloned moveset and adding Black Shadow in to take his old one. If you like the way Ganondorf plays then play as Black Shadow, if you like the character that is Ganondorf then play as Ganondorf. If you for whatever reason are only satisfied with Captain Falcon but with purple effects rather than fire effects and whatever other minor changes Ganondorf has then...why?

I don't even fully think Ganondorf should have every single move changed. Stuff like his ftilt and side special are fine and I'd honestly be fine with Ganondorf keeping a lot of his attributes and just changing the appearances of the move. Like uair, make that a sword swing but keep the way the move works where the early part sends you up and away and the later part gimps. If they fully take that route then everyone wins and Black Shadow isn't even needed. Just add Dead Man's Volley in there somewhere. Heck, make it his up special, he has to go in the air to use it anyways iirc and Dark Dive is awful, doesn't even fit with his 'hitting hard' play style at all.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Honestly, what did? Legitimate question here.
Because the only major difference I can think of between Smash 4 and Brawl aside from the more gritty atmosphere of the latter is that there are far less panty shots available in the former. Was that really enough of a difference for the ESRB?

And Metal Gear stuff, but I don't think what was in Brawl would have been enough to boost the rating, right?

Melee was also rated T, come to think of it, and it had the panty shots... Also gambling because Lottery.

So... yeah, might be the panties.

 

[Bowserlick]

Adventure Mode Plot: Mario appears in various Nintendo Worlds upsetting the balance. Stealing various items representative of the world such as the Tri-force, FE relics, F-Zero Trophy, an enhanced Metroid, ect.

Mario propaganda and graffiti appear all over the worlds. Upset and furious, the heroes embark on a quest to traverse mysteriously merging worlds to grab their items back and put an end to Mario's escapades.

Mario and Luigi are defeated halfway through, yet chaos ensues. At the end, the chosen Hero approaches a fortress/cave/lair where the items are being used to power a machine that is rotating a large gold N. This is causing the worlds to crash together, creating one realm to be ruled.

But before the N could be seized and the machine destroyed, Mario and Luigi appear. Mario's overalls bulge out, buttons pop and red paint drips to the floor revealing a fat Wario in his traditional garb. Luigi's disguise also sheds revealing a lanky Waluigi. After their defeat, Master hands appears. Master Hand turns out to be Andross from Star Fox. Once he is defeated, Andross with a body is a playable character.

The Adventure mode is similar to the Adventure Mode in Melee. The adventure is going through different worlds and their mechanics. There are very few cutscenes. The stages have Mario billboards and signs throughout.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly, what did? Legitimate question here.
Because the only major difference I can think of between Smash 4 and Brawl aside from the more gritty atmosphere of the latter is that there are far less panty shots available in the former. Was that really enough of a difference for the ESRB?

And Metal Gear stuff, but I don't think what was in Brawl would have been enough to boost the rating, right?

Only thing I can think of was maybe they thought Snake's more realistic weaponry was too much? But even then I doubt it. I know Melee was T, but that was more because E10 didn't exist at the time.

But yeah, the pantie shots might've put it over the edge maybe.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I still fail to see the issue with giving Ganon his own fully uncloned moveset and adding Black Shadow in to take his old one. If you like the way Ganondorf plays then play as Black Shadow, if you like the character that is Ganondorf then play as Ganondorf. If you for whatever reason are only satisfied with Captain Falcon but with purple effects rather than fire effects and whatever other minor changes Ganondorf has then...why?

I don't even fully think Ganondorf should have every single move changed. Stuff like his ftilt and side special are fine and I'd honestly be fine with Ganondorf keeping a lot of his attributes and just changing the appearances of the move. Like uair, make that a sword swing but keep the way the move works where the early part sends you up and away and the later part gimps. If they fully take that route then everyone wins and Black Shadow isn't even needed. Just add Dead Man's Volley in there somewhere. Heck, make it his up special, he has to go in the air to use it anyways iirc and Dark Dive is awful, doesn't even fit with his 'hitting hard' play style at all.

Because Ganondorf's moveset doesn't suit Black Shadow.

"Considering Captain Falcon’s moveset is somewhat based on the F-Zero series overall and also has inspiration from the gameplay of the Blue Falcon, a more faithful design for Black Shadow would be basing it off his gameplay in F-Zero: having attributes similar to the Black Bull, which means high speed (in fact, it’s the fastest F-Zero machine) and durability at the cost of boosting power. I’d say these attributes would better translate as a sort of speedy defensive character with less emphasis on actual power. Not quite the same thing as Ganondorf, is it? Ganondorf’s main attributes throughout the Zelda series are immense strength and dark magical powers, which are the focus of his gameplay design and special effects respectively in Smash."

From the article: https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/

 

[Deleted member]

Only thing I can think of was maybe they thought Snake's more realistic weaponry was too much? But even then I doubt it. I know Melee was T, but that was more because E10 didn't exist at the time.

But yeah, the pantie shots might've put it over the edge maybe.

I see Brawl as a T rated game, because of the pantie shots and Snake's pummel breaking someone's neck ( I think ). You are correct about why Melee is T.
Was Peach the only one to experience the pantie shots or no?

Off-Topic: Tharja was actually going to get a trophy in Smash 4, but the game developers feared that the trophy could lead to a T-rated game. Thoughts?
Click this for the source.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I see Brawl as a T rated game, because of the pantie shots and Snake's pummel breaking someone's neck ( I think ). You are correct about why Melee is T.
Was Peach the only one to experience the pantie shots or no?

Off-Topic: Tharja was actually going to get a trophy in Smash 4, but the game developers feared that the trophy could lead to a T-rated game. Thoughts?
Click this for the source.

Actually it seems that Snake didn't influenced anything...by doing a quick search I found out that, besides Peach's panties, Wario's realistic farts were a thing that lead to an higher rating. Seriously.

Edit 2:
And the fact that the E10 rating wasn't a thing in 2008. It was a thing since 2005.

Actually, Smash 3DS/Wii U has the same rating as Brawl in both Europe and Japan.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Actually it seems that Snake didn't influenced anything...by doing a quivk search I found out that, besides Peach's panties, Wario's realistic farts were a thing that lead to an higher rating. Seriously.

Too much toxic gas, I presume

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, what did? Legitimate question here.
Because the only major difference I can think of between Smash 4 and Brawl aside from the more gritty atmosphere of the latter is that there are far less panty shots available in the former. Was that really enough of a difference for the ESRB?

And Metal Gear stuff, but I don't think what was in Brawl would have been enough to boost the rating, right?

I don't think we'll ever have a clear answer on this. Personally, I think the art style combined with Metal Gear and some of the SSE boss fights may have done it. The ESRB can be weird though. Odyssey got the first E10 rating for a main Mario game, and the producer believes it's because the ESRB thought the tank enemies looked too realistic.

 

[Krysco]

Because Ganondorf's moveset doesn't suit Black Shadow.

"Considering Captain Falcon’s moveset is somewhat based on the F-Zero series overall and also has inspiration from the gameplay of the Blue Falcon, a more faithful design for Black Shadow would be basing it off his gameplay in F-Zero: having attributes similar to the Black Bull, which means high speed (in fact, it’s the fastest F-Zero machine) and durability at the cost of boosting power. I’d say these attributes would better translate as a sort of speedy defensive character with less emphasis on actual power. Not quite the same thing as Ganondorf, is it? Ganondorf’s main attributes throughout the Zelda series are immense strength and dark magical powers, which are the focus of his gameplay design and special effects respectively in Smash."

From the article: https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/

Skimmed through it and while I can agree that Black Shadow has popularity as an issue, so did Lucas (outside of Japan), Roy and Corrin (again, outside of Japan) and Wii Fit Trainer wasn't too popular either. As for Black Shadow's Black Bull not being very much like Ganon in terms of stats, the only 'power' in F-ZERO is weight, which Black Bull has the most of iirc. Everything else is purely for the racing aspect: your ability to turn, your amount of boost and your amount of health. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the Blue Falcon is a very well rounded vehicle in F-ZERO, having C's and a B I believe across the 3 stats. I wouldn't exactly call Captain Falcon in Smash a well rounded character. He has a very clear emphasis on speed with his high movement speed and relatively quick start up. He has some power and is decently heavy but he's still not well rounded like Mario or Pit.

And as I said at the end of my last post, I'd be fine with having no Black Shadow and just having Ganondorf have some moves reanimated to include his sword or at least be different from Falcon, most notably the ones that are still very clearly ripped from Captain Falcon like nair, bair, uair, dair to a point, neutral special, up special, down special and throws.

I can imagine if Ganondorf wasn't added in Melee and was a newcomer in Brawl, he'd have a unique moveset assuming he wasn't a late addition like Wolf was. At that point (and funny enough, to this day) he had 3 appearances with 2 of them using sword play to at least some extent. It's only OoT where Ganondorf in his Dorf form doesn't use anything but magic, saving his weapons for his Ganon form.

 

[Opossum]

Actually it seems that Snake didn't influenced anything...by doing a quick search I found out that, besides Peach's panties, Wario's realistic farts were a thing that lead to an higher rating. Seriously.

Edit:
And the fact that the E10 rating wasn't a thing in 2008. Actually, Smash 3DS/Wii U has the same rating as Brawl in both Europe and Japan.

E10 has been a thing since 2005, actually.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Edit:
And the fact that the E10 rating wasn't a thing in 2008. Actually, Smash 3DS/Wii U has the same rating as Brawl in both Europe and Japan.

It should be noted, however, that the ESRB's E10+ rating was made before Brawl came to existence; Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Shadow the Hedgehog are a few notable GCN games with that rating.

If Wario's gas is one of the reasons why Brawl received a Teen rating, then you will have to ask how Smash 3DS / Wii U, and their E10+ rating, got away with keeping it. It seems that for the most part, underwear exposure and gambling references may be the bigger reason for the Teen rating in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Nonno Umby]

E10 has been a thing since 2005, actually.

My bad. I remembered it wrong then. I live in Europe, were we have the PEGI.

It should be noted, however, that the ESRB's E10+ rating was made before Brawl came to existence; Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Shadow the Hedgehog are a few notable GCN games with that rating.

If Wario's gas is one of the reasons why Brawl received a Teen rating, then you will have to ask how Smash 3DS / Wii U, and their E10+ rating, got away with keeping it. It seems that for the most part, underwear exposure and gambling references may be the bigger reason for the Teen rating in Melee and Brawl.

Because it looks a lot more cartoony, so less vulgar.
We went from this

To this

 

[Deleted member]

Actually it seems that Snake didn't influenced anything...by doing a quick search I found out that, besides Peach's panties, Wario's realistic farts were a thing that lead to an higher rating. Seriously.

Edit:
And the fact that the E10 rating wasn't a thing in 2008. Actually, Smash 3DS/Wii U has the same rating as Brawl in both Europe and Japan.

I know about the Europe and Japan thing ( Smash 4 and Brawl are 12+ in PEGI ). I guess the ESRB thought the relastic farts were too "crude". How funny.

It is probably likely that Smash for Switch will be E10+ in ESRB, for USA at least.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't think we'll ever have a clear answer on this. Personally, I think the art style combined with Metal Gear and some of the SSE boss fights may have done it. The ESRB can be weird though. Odyssey got the first E10 rating for a main Mario game, and the producer believes it's because the ESRB thought the tank enemies looked too realistic.

The T-Rex and Ruined Dragon also look way out of place in a Super Mario title, since they're far more realistic-looking (even to a point where they hardly feature any kind of cartoonish exaggeration, if at all) than a lot of the creatures that Mario comes across. And to add to their realism, the T-Rex is invincible to everything that Mario does (all that Mario can do is capture it, and even then, Cappy can't keep a T-Rex captured for very long), while the Ruined Dragon can't truly be defeated.

 

[Bowserlick]

Which series without a villain/antagonist in Smash 4 should get a villain/antagonist in the next game?

 

[Pacack]

Which series without a villain/antagonist in Smash 4 should get a villain/antagonist in the next game?

Metroid.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

A little more mature or less mature, I just want another grand scale Adventure Mode of some kind. I honestly had a lot of fun with the SSE.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, it's biggest issues were it's plot being rather confusing (the complete lack of dialogue didn't always work in it's favor) the very limited variety of enemies from other Nintendo games, and the generic and utterly boring looking stage designs.

Then Smash Run came along and they made sure to include numerous enemies from tons of the IPs in Smash. If they can make the story a bit more clear, continue to include a variety of enemies from other games, and improve the aesthetic designs in the levels, I'd happily welcome another big Adventure Mode in the next Smash game. The tone of the story wouldn't matter much to me either way.