Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

Wait, aren't you forgetting someone?

Man, how the heck could I think of Greninja before Yoshi?!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Man, how the heck could I think of Greninja before Yoshi?!

Probably doesn't help that egg-related play is also extremely important to the character.

 

[Lukingordex]

Since we're now talking about yoshi's tongue, it bothers me how sakurai decided to make his grab bad in smash 4 and at the same time no decent reward for it.

It appears that, in every smash interaction since melee, sakurai managed to give yoshi some kind of dumb weakness that makes him drop in the tier list tremendously.

- In melee he couldn't jump oos. His grab was also terrible, but at least had good reward through grab combos;
- In brawl they kept his jumping oos problem and nerfed all his smash attacks thus making taking stocks a pain in general except against characters he had a guaranted grab release upsmash setup on;
- in smash 4 they finally fixed his jumping oos problem (but his shield still has a specific problem that makes powershielding harder) and improved his smash attacks a little so they now kill at reasonable percents. However... they destroyed yoshi's grab game and at the same time made sure yoshi had almost no reward for getting grabs, that in a game where 75% of the cast has a hoohaa combo/kill throw/huge percetage combos out of grabs.

This honestly makes me think Sakurai has some kind of bias towards Yoshi that the character would somehow be stupid broken or something without some kind of dumb weakness which i really don't understand.

Sakurai please stop biasing on my character and let him be viable for once

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Since we're now talking about yoshi's tongue, it bothers me how sakurai decided to make his grab bad in smash 4 and at the same time no decent reward for it.

It appears that, in every smash interaction since melee, sakurai managed to give yoshi some kind of dumb weakness that makes him drop in the tier list tremendously.

- In melee he couldn't jump oos. His grab was also terrible, but at least had good reward through grab combos;
- In brawl they kept his jumping oos problem and nerfed all his smash attacks thus making taking stocks a pain in general except against characters he had a guaranted grab release upsmash setup on;
- in smash 4 they finally fixed his jumping oos problem (but his shield still has a specific problem that makes powershielding harder) and improved his smash attacks a little so they now kill at reasonable percents. However... they destroyed yoshi's grab game and at the same time made sure yoshi had almost no reward for getting grabs, that in a game where 75% of the cast has a hoohaa combo/kill throw/huge percetage combos out of grabs.

This honestly makes me think Sakurai has some kind of bias towards Yoshi that the character would somehow be stupid broken or something without some kind of dumb weakness which i really don't understand.

Sakurai please stop biasing on my character and let him be viable for once

How do you think I feel as a King Dedede main

 

[Lukingordex]

How do you think I feel as a King Dedede main

At least d3 had some going for him in brawl as long as he wasn't fighting mk or ice climbers. It's something, even if it was because of his chain grabs

Guess i should be thankful yoshi isn't like Zelda. Poor Zelda mains

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

Cloud is always on Limit Break.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

All that I can say is that under normal circumstances, only Giga Bowser and Giga Mac are permitted to be overpowered as a whole. Wario-Man would also be considered overpowered, but for a completely different reason; instead of brute strength, he focuses on an insane air game.

As for Mega Lucario, it's not necessarily stronger than Lucario, as Lucario can potentially deal just as much damage as Mega Lucario when the right conditions are in play. The knockback immunity is what gives Mega Lucario the edge over Lucario, and even then, Mega Lucario would basically be the least overpowered Final Smash fighter if it doesn't pick up a Super Mushroom.

 

[Krysco]

All that I can say is that under normal circumstances, only Giga Bowser and Giga Mac are permitted to be overpowered. And they would definitely outrank Brawl Meta Knight in the unfair department, but at least they only stick around for a limited time.

I find it funny how you mention Giga Mac, who still has a pathetic air game but not Wario Man or even Mega Lucario. With max aura, all Mega Lucario is for Lucario is some super armor but at least there isn't the easy answer of just 'stay above him'. Don't even know if you'd count Brawl R.O.B.'s final smash as a transformation since all that happens is he gets a constant hitbox put in front of him and invincibility.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I find it funny how you mention Giga Mac, who still has a pathetic air game but not Wario Man or even Mega Lucario. With max aura, all Mega Lucario is for Lucario is some super armor but at least there isn't the easy answer of just 'stay above him'. Don't even know if you'd count Brawl R.O.B.'s final smash as a transformation since all that happens is he gets a constant hitbox put in front of him and invincibility.

He has a different one in Smash 4 though, which is basically close-range version of Samus'

 

[Krysco]

He has a different one in Smash 4 though, which is basically close-range version of Samus'

I'm aware, hence me specifically mentioning the Brawl one. Transformation final smashes, by their very nature are meant to be broken but the one R.O.B. had in Brawl is very minor compared to the others and could even be treated more akin to Rosalina's, Bayonetta's, or Brawl Dedede's where the characters are normal but something else has been added to the field to give them an advantage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I find it funny how you mention Giga Mac, who still has a pathetic air game but not Wario Man or even Mega Lucario. With max aura, all Mega Lucario is for Lucario is some super armor but at least there isn't the easy answer of just 'stay above him'. Don't even know if you'd count Brawl R.O.B.'s final smash as a transformation since all that happens is he gets a constant hitbox put in front of him and invincibility.

Apparently, you quoted my last post before I was finished updating it. Anyway, while Giga Mac may have the worst air game of all Final Smash fighters, at least his standard aerials can actually make KOs at realistic damage percentages (unlike with Little Mac's standard aerials).

In regards to Brawl R.O.B., his Final Smash probably would not count as an actual transformation.

 

[UserKev]

...I think I'll stick with Mipha or Daruk. So far, Greninja is the only fighter who should be able to grab someone with his tongue. I don't want to find out if Girahim can do it too.

Haha Bring on the hate. Take your fish and rock. I'll take a demon lord.

 

[Deleted member]

Lyn will never get into Smash Brothers probably, because Sakurai used her as an Assist Trophy twice and would probably think she is too similar to Marth, same case with Chrom to Ike. ( Please add Chrom ). It was nice to know she was originally going to be added into PM. At least we can hope for Celica in Smash Brothers for Switch.

At least d3 had some going for him in brawl as long as he wasn't fighting mk or ice climbers. It's something, even if it was because of his chain grabs

Guess i should be thankful yoshi isn't like Zelda. Poor Zelda mains

Zelda mains know their stuff, trust me.

 

[Bowserlick]

Rosalina should be more like Zelda, but with a Luma. And Zelda should be more like Rosalina without a Luma.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Lyn will never get into Smash Brothers probably

Okay, why?

because Sakurai used her as an Assist Trophy twice

Charizard would like to have a word with you.

Seriously, he was a Poke Ball assist in 64 and Melee before being playable in Brawl.

and would probably think she is too similar to Marth

There is no way they can have any similarity when their swordfighting style have different origins. Marth is the typical Western medieval sword style while Lyn takes more from Eastern countries. Plus, she's so fast she can literally flash step, giving plently of potential for a flashy moveset, and is one of, if not the most popular female in the entire Fire Emblem franchise.

If Lyn doesn't show up as a playable character, it's not because she's too similar to Marth.

same case with Chrom to Ike. ( Please add Chrom )

That is just a joke from Palutena's Guidance and could simply not be true at all. All we know is that Chrom was discarded in favor of Robin because he could be more unique, with said Guidance likely being made as a nod to that.

It was nice to know she was originally going to be added into PM.

Except that doesn't really matter in Smash speculation since it's a fanmade thing. One that Nintendo really didn't like either, if the bans Miiverse applied from merely mentioning it are anything to go by.

At least we can hope for Celica in Smash Brothers for Switch.

Debatable depending on when a Smash on Switch is worked on, in my opinion. Her chances are there, but if FE Switch is released before development, she might be ignored in favor of a character from that game.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, why?

I do not know, just felt a reason.

Charizard would like to have a word with you.

Seriously, he was a Poke Ball assist in 64 and Melee before being playable in Brawl.

Oh yes, I remember. Charizard was popular though. Maybe Lyn is popular so in a way you are correct.

There is no way they can have any similarity when their swordfighting style have different origins. Marth is the typical Western medieval sword style while Lyn takes more from Eastern countries. Plus, she's so fast she can literally flash step, giving plently of potential for a flashy moveset, and is one of, if not the most popular female in the entire Fire Emblem franchise.

If Lyn doesn't show up as a playable character, it's not because she's too similar to Marth.

Oh well that is good. That could be a reason for Lyn as you mentioned. Potential creative move-sets are always nice. I am not sure why the main reason is, is it because the developers would think there is too many FE characters or too average? She does have a flashy potential move-set as you mentioned, so I do not know.

That is just a joke from Palutena's Guidance and could simply not be true at all. All we know is that Chrom was discarded in favor of Robin because he could be more unique, with said Guidance likely being made as a nod to that.

Oooh I forgot about that . That was the reason, and I was told this many times. The Guidance was a nod to that indeed. Either way, In favor of Chrom.

Except that doesn't really matter in Smash speculation since it's a fanmade thing. One that Nintendo really didn't like either, if the bans Miiverse applied from merely mentioning it are anything to go by.

Just wanted to point that out. That was not in point of anything, that was just random. I guess you are right about it being too random in a Smash speculation.

Debatable depending on when a Smash on Switch is worked on, in my opinion. Her chances are there, but if FE Switch is released before development, she might be ignored in favor of a character from that game.

Lyn would be a nice addition to Smash. I feel like the only one in this speculation who wants her, but I might be wrong. I am too lazy to think of a move-set for her.Possibly, the main characters would probably be added over Lyn if they made a new FE Switch game featuring different main characters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Oh well that is good. That could be a reason for Lyn as you mentioned. Potential creative move-sets are always nice. I am not sure why the main reason is, is it because the developers would think there is too many FE characters or too average? She does have a flashy potential move-set as you mentioned, so I do not know.

I think it's just bad timing, considering the only character added in Smash who didn't appear in the latest FE game at the time is Marth. I guess there's Roy too since his game was still in development when Melee was released, but I personally think that counts.

If they're gonna add FE characters, it's going to be one from the most recent game to avoid adding too much at once. Lucina is an exception because she was a clone added in the end of development, not to mention initially designed as an alt rather than her own character.

So basically, Lyn's chances are either a lack of new characters to draw from or a Blazing Blade remake.

 

[Phil Time]

So what if, Sakurai just loses his mind and unleashes his super dev skills

Every character returns from any Smash returns
Any character with an amiibo is playable
Every moveset from Hyrule Warriors is playable
Every character from Fire Emblem Warriors is playable
Every character ever to be playable in a Mario game is playable (including Mario Maker costumes)
Every character to be playable in Kirby is playable
Every character from ARMS is playable
Every weapon in Splatoon series has its own moveset.
Every weapon class in kid Icarus Uprising is playable
Every playable character in Xenoblade is playable
Every playable character in the earthbound games is playable
Every F-Zero racer is playable
Every bounty hunter from Metroid is playable
Every Pokemon from Pokken is playable
Every potential Pokemon Mystery Dungeon starter is playable
Every Legendary Pokemon is playable
Every Star Fox and Star Wolf member is playable
Every playable character from Pikmin is playable
Every character from the Sega all stars games is playable
Every Capcom character from the Capcom Vs games is playable
Every punch out boxer is playable
Every Mii Costume based on character, that character becomes playable
Every playable character from project X zone series is playable


Who do you want to play as the most?

You forgot about including the most important newcomer of all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You forgot about including the most important newcomer of all.

Please no.

That meme got frequent enough that the joke stopped being funny.

Besides we have more modern memes.

Like Karen.

 

[Deleted member]

Multiple characters from a niche JRPG that most people learned about from Smash and Shulk memes? I can barely hold my excitement.

Well actually, I rather prefer to see a series which has a moderate success to get more exposure in the next Smash rather than a series which has been obscenely overmilked these last years if you ask me.

EDIT: What I said applies to Zelda like to any other series which has seen several releases and re-releases nearly every year since 2010 Swamp Sensei .

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Please do not start a Xenoblade vs Zelda spat.

Both are great.

Both have potential for great newcomers.

Let's just leave it at that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

: F Air like it was in the debut game. N Air working like a sex kick and having increased knockback and damage. Super armor on Up B charge up. Also, Hoo-Hah returns fully and Diddy can get 2 bananas out at once like in Brawl, AND can throw them OoS.
: Longer grab reach, longer duration of hitbox on dash attack, faster and improved hitboxes on F Air, N Air combo'ing into itself or grounded moves, Up B can propeller when holding B, Down B comes out a lot faster and does more damage and can even kill at 150%~ish. Gaint Punch dealing a whopping extra 5% damage fully charged and killing earlier.
: Neutral B is now a projectile much like Cloud's, cause IKE needed that one in the first place. F Air has longer duration and longer reach plus super armor, AAA does more damage and can combo into F Tilt, Aether does double the damage, Side B can be canceled on impact, better hitbox on Down Air, U Smash having far less cool down, F Smash does far more shield damage and has far less cooldown and more reach plus super armor, F Tilt has half the cool down.
: Has about Wario's / R.O.B.'s weight but is still extremely floaty so can easily escape combos. Shadow Ball does 5% more damage. Neutral Air has a longer duration of the hitbox and increased range, Jab becomes easier to connect and does far more damage and has increased priority. Confusion gets changed into Psychic and becomes a command grab but can still reflect projectiles and aid in recovery.

 

[Cosmic77]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

Rosalina goes back to her original 3DS version and Luma can attack fighters even when Rosalina is grabbed.

I'd be unstoppable!!

Haha Bring on the hate. Take your fish and rock. I'll take a demon lord.

Technically, you'd be taking a sword.

I think it's just bad timing, considering the only character added in Smash who didn't appear in the latest FE game at the time is Marth. I guess there's Roy too since his game was still in development when Melee was released, but I personally think that counts.

If they're gonna add FE characters, it's going to be one from the most recent game to avoid adding too much at once. Lucina is an exception because she was a clone added in the end of development, not to mention initially designed as an alt rather than her own character.

So basically, Lyn's chances are either a lack of new characters to draw from or a Blazing Blade remake.

FE is basically Pokemon without all the love for the first game. Even if FE were to get two or more characters in the next Smash, they'd probably all be related to the upcoming Switch game. I'm not saying characters like Lyn are impossible, but the odds are stacked against them.

Well actually, I rather prefer to see a series which has a moderate success to get more exposure in the next Smash rather than a series which has been obscenely overmilked these last years if you ask me.

I never said Xenoblade didn't need any exposure. I just said I wouldn't be very excited if it got heavily promoted in the next game.

Look, I'm not trying to say Xenoblade is a bad franchise, because it's not. I just feel like certain more-popular franchises have been completely overlooked when it comes to new characters. Xenoblade deserves at least one new unique character, but anything more on top of that besides a clone character is a little much. Personally, I'd like to see multiple franchises get new characters as opposed to Xenoblade getting extra attention.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

FE is basically Pokemon without all the love for the first game. Even if FE were to get two or more characters in the next Smash, they'd probably all be related to the upcoming Switch game. I'm not saying characters like Lyn are impossible, but the odds are stacked against them.

That was exactly my point.

Though with that said, Celica still has a genuine chance because of Echoes.

 

[Cosmic77]

Though with that said, Celica still has a genuine chance because of Echoes.

I think it's 50/50 with Celica. Just really depends what she's up against in FE Switch. If the cast of the next FE game is limited and bland, it's possible Celica could be added. If the cast has plenty of potential fighters, I think they'll skip over Celica and pick someone new just for the extra promotion.

That's assuming FE gets two newcomers. Unless FE Switch gets a huge delay, I doubt SoV would be made a higher priority.

 

[Staarih]

I'm actually warming up to the idea of Celica as a FE newcomer. I really, really like her current design/look, she seems like a unique case when it comes to usual FE swords and stuff, and seeing how she's #1 female (so far) in the 2nd round of Choose Your Legends of FE Heroes, she seems to have popularity to her as well.

But still, FE Switch is where I think the priorities stand when it comes to FE newcomers.

 

[Luminario]

I'd say Celica's somewhat likely to be in the next game, but they'd likely only put in effort to make her a semi-clone if all the previous unique fighters return.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Meta Knight in Brawl, how about we play a little game here...

If you were in charge of Smash 5, and every character was slated to be as broken and OP as , but because every character was this strong the roster was actually balanced, how would you buff your main(s)?

Just make them a Brawl Meta Knight clone
The Stoopid Unikorn basically did what I would do for Cloud, so I will do Sheik instead.
Buff her to the point she is even better than her pre-patch self.
Make her heavier yet still her posture ( the weight of Bowser would be OP ).
Make her recovery have more distance. Give her some super armor on her attacks as well.
Buff her range and amazingly buff her KO power, and wall-a! You got an unfair character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The Stoopid Unikorn basically did Cloud, so I will do Sheik instead.

Don't let other people's answers stop you from sharing yours.

Maybe you have some interesting stuff aside from "always breaking limits"

 

[PsychoJosh]

Since we're now talking about yoshi's tongue, it bothers me how sakurai decided to make his grab bad in smash 4 and at the same time no decent reward for it.

It appears that, in every smash interaction since melee, sakurai managed to give yoshi some kind of dumb weakness that makes him drop in the tier list tremendously.

- In melee he couldn't jump oos. His grab was also terrible, but at least had good reward through grab combos;
- In brawl they kept his jumping oos problem and nerfed all his smash attacks thus making taking stocks a pain in general except against characters he had a guaranted grab release upsmash setup on;
- in smash 4 they finally fixed his jumping oos problem (but his shield still has a specific problem that makes powershielding harder) and improved his smash attacks a little so they now kill at reasonable percents. However... they destroyed yoshi's grab game and at the same time made sure yoshi had almost no reward for getting grabs, that in a game where 75% of the cast has a hoohaa combo/kill throw/huge percetage combos out of grabs.

This honestly makes me think Sakurai has some kind of bias towards Yoshi that the character would somehow be stupid broken or something without some kind of dumb weakness which i really don't understand.

Sakurai please stop biasing on my character and let him be viable for once

If his down air can do 40% in a single usage and combo into his forward Smash, he deserves nothing else. I'm glad his other tools are garbage.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't let other people's answers stop you from sharing yours.

Maybe you have some interesting stuff aside from "always breaking limits"

I meant to say that you did what I would do to Cloud already. I would also buff his limit insanely, and make it he can use it forever.

I'm actually warming up to the idea of Celica as a FE newcomer. I really, really like her current design/look, she seems like a unique case when it comes to usual FE swords and stuff, and seeing how she's #1 female (so far) in the 2nd round of Choose Your Legends of FE Heroes, she seems to have popularity to her as well.

But still, FE Switch is where I think the priorities stand when it comes to FE newcomers.

Me too! She would be a nice addition in Smash for Switch! @Opossum is the guy to talk to for Celica in Smash for Switch, and he has a thread about her potential move-set.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I meant to say that you did what I would do to Cloud already. I would also buff his limit insanely, and make it he can use it forever.

What about bringing him back to his pre-patch self (or even buffed)? I never said that

Me too! She would be a nice addition in Smash for Switch! @Opossum is the guy to talk to for Celica in Smash for Switch, and he has a thread about her potential move-set.

You know, you really don't need to use tags all the time...

 

[PsychoJosh]

I meant to say that you did what I would do to Cloud already. I would also buff his limit insanely, and make it he can use it forever..

Cloud can't even use limit break in his game permanently.

If we're going to be making our mains broken, I would make all of Dedede's aerials faster, and make it so that Dedede can have three gordos on screen at a time, and they can't be reflected back at him.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Cloud can't even use limit break in his game permanently.

You can't manually charge it in his game either, so accuracy has already been thrown out the window.

 

[PsychoJosh]

You can't manually charge it in his game either, so accuracy has already been thrown out the window.

Yeah, something I would do in Smash 5 is give EVERYONE their own super meter, that functions the same way as a super meter in Street Fighter - it gets built up by doing damage and taking damage. Everyone would be able to use it for enhanced B attacks.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't just want Celica, I want Alm as well. Alm was SUCH a cool Lord. He'd be that actual Marth / Ike mix, which would make a great character. Yeah Chrom was denied for this, but I still think the concept is cool as ****.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't just want Celica, I want Alm as well. Alm was SUCH a cool Lord. He'd be that actual Marth / Ike mix, which would make a great character. Yeah Chrom was denied for this, but I still think the concept is cool as ****.

So basically, he takes Roy's place but without the tipper stuff?

 

[Diddy Kong]

So basically, he takes Roy's place but without the tipper stuff?

I actually really like Roy, so I'd prefer him to stay. Roy is also way more similar to Marth than Ike.

 

[Lukingordex]

If his down air can do 40% in a single usage and combo into his forward Smash, he deserves nothing else. I'm glad his other tools are garbage.

Dair combing into Fsmash? That's bizarrely untrue