Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Jetsurge]

It's interest how Chrom and K. Rool both got mii costumes at the same time. I think they were definitely were saving them for this game and made mii costumes to tide fans over. Hurts Isaac's chance though.

 

[Jubileus57]

People literally just commented earlier in this thread explaining why the 103 number is wrong.

Sorry I just woke up and didn't read everything that was posted through the night. How exactly has it been proven wrong? Those didn't reach my half asleep brain ^^'

 

[Shroob]

Look, I get it. It seems weird. But we saw the stage select screen with all 103 stages. And we got confirmation that every stage in the game is available right from the start (meaning no unlockables). So unless you have some proof beyond some empty black slots taking up space for no reason, I'm sorry. But I'm gonna go with what I heard from the Direct. 103 stages. Total. Is it weird that we are not getting a new Pokémon stage? Certainly. If anything, that's the one thing I felt certain about should we get a Gen 7 rep in Smash.

But on the bright side, it at least made it easy enough to narrow down who our final newcomers are going to be.

As to the Minecraft content Vergeben spoke of, I think it's one of two things; either a Stage Builder mode loosely inspired by Minecraft; or, similarly to Rayman, we get several Minecraft-related trophies--if not a Steve Assist Trophy. Heck, another distinct possibility might have something to do with that new Adventure/Subspace-type mode that we got a sneak peak at.

Simply put, I have two pieces of evidence, make of them as you will:

1: Mute City SNES:


Why rename it if the original Mute City is gone? All the other stages that shared names (Mute City SNES was simply Mute City on the 3DS version), were renamed, and regular Mute City is missing. There'd be no reason to rename Mute City 3DS into "Mute City(SNES) unless there was another stage having the title of Mute City, it should just be "Mute City".

2: The order:

Barring the black squares, the way it's organized makes 0 sense at the bottom row. For four(Technically 5 games), Sakurai has kept the CSS and SSS centered. Why would a group of 6 or so stages be smooshed off to the left side instead of be centered underneath? There's literally no difference in the case of DLC, and it's been a design that Sakurai's done for 20 years now, why stop now?


Circumstancial, but make of it as you will.

The website also read "65" characters for the longest time, and that number changed today for obvious reasons.

 

[Jubileus57]

How do you know it's the final and not just the total amount they've been able to implement so far?

I'd think one would wait to have the entire number of stages before comparing it to the rest of the series. Maybe that sounds dumb but I'd rather prepare myself for that "103 stages and that is final" outcome.

 

[Enderwoman]

it is unfortunate how many people think elma and isabelle are going to be in this game

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

it is unfortunate how many people think elma and isabelle are going to be in this game

For the longest time it was unfortunate how many people thought K. Rool and Ridley would be in this game and, uh, welp.

Just saying, don't write off characters just yet. We haven't even seen the base roster yet so DLC is another can of worms to go through.

 

[---]

I'm gonna go further in detail on what I think differences are between Echoes.

/Chrom - Chrom's Falchion is balanced and does damage equal throughout rather than being stronger at the base.

/Dark Samus - Dark Samus seems to have faster projectiles at the cost of a little less damage (or in the Phazon Shot case, size).

Simon/Richter - I believe one of the two will have a tipper gimmick with the mace at the end of the chain, making chain hits weaker but mace hits more fatal. The other will just have a Lucina/Chrom effect put in place.

You guys got any ideas?

If Chrom has Roy's frame data but no sword base gimmick, he'll automatically rank higher on tier lists; balancing Roy is tough as he isn't rewarded for spacing but you can't give him above average frame data because of his range. That said Chrom's recovery will be on par with limitless Cloud so there's that.

Dark Samus has a shorter but faster roll (Direct 8:00) and her Morph Ball is arguably safer as it gives her more horizontal distance. The former probably gives her a better neutral game than regular Samus, assuming their frame data is mostly the same.

 

[Scicky]

You'd expect it to be his final smash

But I guess the final smash could be majora's mask turning into majora

Eh, if Rathalos can be a boss and an AT, why can't we have the Moon as both AT and Final Smash?

I'm still holding out hope that Isaac will bring in Golden Sun as a new franchise. Seems likely considering both Ridley and K. Rool mad it in due to fan demand. K. Rool got in despite his irrelevancy, Ridley got in despite Sakurai saying he was not possible, and the only two characters with popularity that even comes close to those two is Geno and Isaac. I think if we were to get one more fan legacy character it'll be one of those two or, preferably, both.

At this point I'd be genuinely shocked if neither Geno or Isaac make it in. With Sakurai really aiming for fanservice and maximum hype in this game, it's the first time in a Smash hype cycle that I've felt like we actually have safe-bets as far as who's going to be included. It's honestly difficult for me to imagine Geno not getting in, while Isaac has better chances than almost anyone else I can think of.

 

[AzureFlame4]

it is unfortunate how many people think elma and isabelle are going to be in this game

Isabelle at least seems extremely likely given how popular she is as an AC character and the fact that not only is she missing as an AT for now, but there is a new Animal Crossing AT to take her place. I don't really see Elma making it though, but who knows.

 

[Flynn__]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

 

[Koopaul]

Not really. Remember Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, and many more don't have their own folder. It seems like if it's a series that doesn't have a lot of songs, it will just get lumped in the Other section.

Seriously, ifyour series is only getting 1 to 4 songs in the game, why would it need it's own music section?

 

[Shroob]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

IMO, the only exception to this is Retros, since Duck Hunt and Ice Climber are both in Misc.

 

[NeonBurrito]

it is unfortunate how many people think elma and isabelle are going to be in this game

What? I'd argue that Isabelle is one of, if not the, most likely candidate(s) for being an echo fighter.

 

[Jubileus57]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

This is more than likely imo. With the full stage roster known and the most likely newcomers hailing from already represented series I would say we can say goodbye to them characters from new and big universes...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really. Remember Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, and many more don't have their own folder. It seems like if it's a series that doesn't have a lot of songs, it will just get lumped in the Other section.

Seriously, if your series is only getting 1 to 4 songs in the game, why would it need it's own music section?

Don't ask me, ask the Game & Watch and Final Fantasy series, they both only have 2 songs.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

I'm sure if they wanted to still keep a new series character a surprise they could easily do it and still show off the basics of the UI. I think people are just digging into this too literally. I think there's going to be at least 1 more new franchise character. I mean we got Castlevania and Splatoon and that's it? I doubt it. I could easily see Arms or Golden Sun being saved for later and kept out of sight.

 

[osby]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

Appearently, he's the most popular Belmont in Japan and quite a few important stuff in Castlevania comes from his games.

 

[NeonBurrito]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

I said this in the RTC thread and I'll say it again here: When it comes to Castlevania, Japan loves Richter. He's their favorite Belmont. Having a Richter echo was a way to throw them a bone, considering they aren't super fond of Simon, especially his more He-Man-like design.

Plus, Simon in Smash does pull a lot from Richter's moveset in Rondo of Blood / Symphony of the Night, as Sakurai mentioned.

 

[Jubileus57]

I'm sure if they wanted to still keep a new series character a surprise they could easily do it and still show off the basics of the UI. I think people are just digging into this too literally. I think there's going to be at least 1 more new franchise character. I mean we got Castlevania and Splatoon and that's it? I doubt it. I could easily see Arms or Golden Sun being saved for later and kept out of sight.

Well there will probably be DLC for these. I'd say notto gets our hopes up for new universes in the base game.

 

[Shroob]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

That's who Richter is. He's also the main Belmont of Rondo of Blood, which is considered one of the most influential Castlevanias in the series.

However, Simon's the OG.

They're both basically 'the' Belmont.

 

[Scicky]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

Maybe that's what the second mario mushroom is there for, to hide whatever comes next? I wouldn't take it to mean anything honestly.

 

[epicgordan]

So given that they showed us the music folders with the different emblems and the emblems showed were already known, do you think that no new franchises are getting a rep? I mean, it's not like they blurred some emblems like they did with the new mode, or like they found a way to not show ALL the emblems, they just weren't there. I don't know if Sakurai would go as far as having a fake menu without the non-revealed franchises. He didn't had a reason to show the music folders the way he did... I don't know.

So... I think that's it, which eradicates any hope left for Isaac and other characters from "new" franchises. Maybe we should only expect newcomers from already announced franchises.

As I said. Although I used the stages as proof positive that we weren't going to get any new reps outside of, methinks, some massive string-pulling. If there's a possible exception to the rule, it might be Monster Hunter. Or Steve. But outside of that, I'm going to go with 4 unique newcomers and at least 4 echo fighters as my prediction.

Specifically, I think Geno, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, and a Gen 7 Pokémon rep (I think Necrozma, Verg says Incineroar, and loz...I don't even know who he thinks will represent Gen 7) will be our remaining newcomers. I think if Verg's second and third sources are faulty, we could see Necrozma as our next "villain" newcomer. Why do I say that? Well, in King K. Rool's reveal trailer, guess which franchise didn't feature good guy vs. bad guy? Besides Yoshi not having a villain of his own to fight, we also do not have a villainous Pokémon rep that Sakurai would recognize. The closest thing would probably be Mewtwo, and by this point, he probably wouldn't be a villain.

Personally, I think for certain that Dixie Kong, Shadow, and either Impa or Hilda would make it in as Echo Fighters. And I'm leaning more towards Impa due to the ballot. The fourth for now I am aiming for Isabelle, but considering that many believe the source that gave Verg the Isabelle leak may have given him false information to throw off potential leakers (most notably loz, who insists isn't in the game), it could be anybody. Personally, I'm leaning more towards Ken or maybe Zack as alternatives to Isabelle.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You know what ****ing sucks? We're going to argue about these damn music folders and stage numbers all the way up until the next Direct. Maybe longer. Something so pointless but I know we're gonna.

 

[osby]

I'm sure if they wanted to still keep a new series character a surprise they could easily do it and still show off the basics of the UI. I think people are just digging into this too literally. I think there's going to be at least 1 more new franchise character. I mean we got Castlevania and Splatoon and that's it? I doubt it. I could easily see Arms or Golden Sun being saved for later and kept out of sight.

I hope so. Last game made a lot of fans wishing for more fighters from (non-Pokemon nor Mario) Smash 64 franchises, so I can see development team prioritising that.

 

[Shroob]

You know what ****ing sucks? We're going to argue about these damn music folders and stage videos all the way up until the next Direct. Maybe longer. Something so pointless but I know we're gonna.

Remember "Up until now" for Lucas and Ness?

 

[Scicky]

Specifically, I think Geno, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, and a Gen 7 Pokémon rep (I think Necrozma, Verg says Incineroar, and loz...I don't even know who he thinks will represent Gen 7) will be our remaining newcomers. I think if Verg's second and third sources are faulty, we could see Necrozma as our next "villain" newcomer. Why do I say that? Well, in King K. Rool's reveal trailer, guess which franchise didn't feature good guy vs. bad guy? Besides Yoshi not having a villain of his own to fight, we also do not have a villainous Pokémon rep that Sakurai would recognize. The closest thing would probably be Mewtwo, and by this point, he probably wouldn't be a villain.

Alternatively, they could capitalize on the Gen 1/GO hype and give us a rocket grunt with like... Golbat, Nidoking and Ratatta lmao.

Not sure if I'm joking or if I'd be legitimately excited for that tbh.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

Richter is my favorite Belmont so I'm not going to complain about it

Alternatively, they could capitalize on the Gen 1/GO hype and give us a rocket grunt with like... Golbat, Nidoking and Ratatta lmao.

Not sure if I'm joking or if I'd be legitimately excited for that tbh.

(Blastoise)

 

[Scicky]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

Same, but whatever, I'm honestly cool with whatever as far as echo fighters go at this point. The fact that you can render them essentially alt costumes on the character select screen (though it's weird in the case of like, Chrom, who has different moves than the character they're echoing) means they're really not taking up a lot of real estate in the game, and I'm sure there are people out there who are ecstatic to see them so y'know, good for them.

Also on the topic of Chrom: what are echo fighters even at this point? Is Chrom really much more similar to Roy than Dr. Mario is to Mario?

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Richter >>>>>>>>>>> Simon

Glad Sakurai has good taste and decided to add the best belmont

Now he has to add alucard and shanoa in the next game

 

[Shroob]

I just do not buy for a moment that the stage select screen will look like this due to the bottom row, because if they had WANTED to center it, they could have.

Sakurai has centered these CSS and SSS as best as he could for 20 years. He doesn't organize things the way he does without purpose.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Simply put, I have two pieces of evidence, make of them as you will:

1: Mute City SNES:


Why rename it if the original Mute City is gone? All the other stages that shared names (Mute City SNES was simply Mute City on the 3DS version), were renamed, and regular Mute City is missing. There'd be no reason to rename Mute City 3DS into "Mute City(SNES) unless there was another stage having the title of Mute City, it should just be "Mute City".

2: The order:

Barring the black squares, the way it's organized makes 0 sense at the bottom row. For four(Technically 5 games), Sakurai has kept the CSS and SSS centered. Why would a group of 6 or so stages be smooshed off to the left side instead of be centered underneath? There's literally no difference in the case of DLC, and it's been a design that Sakurai's done for 20 years now, why stop now?


Circumstancial, but make of it as you will.

The website also read "65" characters for the longest time, and that number changed today for obvious reasons.

Some good points. I don't get why people are getting so hung up on this.

This is Smash Bros. If it wasn't explicitly stated then it wasn't said.

Do people seriously believe there won't be any new stages between now and December? That we're only getting 4 new stages? I know Sakurai said not to expect many new stages....but he said the same about characters and we're currently at 8 with more on the way. (yeah 4 of them are echoes but my point still stands)

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Either this was a lucky guess or where now getting gardevior with a gothitelle echo now

 

[dezeray112]

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter.

I felt the same as well, Richter was someone that wasn't on my radar and his reveal was quite the surprise.

 

[Curious Villager]

I just do not buy for a moment that the stage select screen will look like this due to the bottom row, because if they had WANTED to center it, they could have.


View attachment 156551


Sakurai has centered these CSS and SSS as best as he could for 20 years. He doesn't organize things the way he does without purpose.

Also the banner up says Normal. No doubt we'd surely get some DLC stages too along the way, which will probably get their own page too (Not to mention Stage Builder.)

If DLC stages where to get their own page, then why align the bottom stages to the left rather than center as they always did?

 

[L9999]

if we get a samus that isnt a dysfunctional piece of garbage I will be so happy

I find it amusing how they made Samus's jab 1 even worse. It already wasn't safe on hit. XD

Haven’t had a chance to collect my thoughts about that trailer but one thing I was pretty “huh?” on was Richter. I have no ide who he is or his game and felt like “is he that necessary”. Hell, I would of preferred seeing Ken or Jeanne over him. And I don’t even want those guys.

Richter has his conversation with Dracula....

Either this was a lucky guess or where now getting gardevior with a gothitelle echo now

Do you really think this person had enough time alone to steal the build and datamine it without a single screenshot? It is fake as hell.

 

[Shroob]

Also the banner up says Normal. No doubt we'd surely get some DLC stages too along the way, which will probably get their own page too (Not to mention Stage Builder.)

If DLC stages where to get their own page, then why align the bottom stages to the left rather than center as they always did?

Either this was a lucky guess or where now getting gardevior with a gothitelle echo now

I'd honestly be 'okay' with this, though a 2nd 'Mario', even with his block design would get hella confusing but...

I can't imagine anyone seriously likes Gothitelle as a Pokemon. That thing is hideous and was kind of a Gen 5 flop to recapture the appeal of Gardevoir.

 

[Jubileus57]

I just do not buy for a moment that the stage select screen will look like this due to the bottom row, because if they had WANTED to center it, they could have.


View attachment 156551


Sakurai has centered these CSS and SSS as best as he could for 20 years. He doesn't organize things the way he does without purpose.

Maybe he left some place for eventual DLC so we don't have to toggle between screens?

On another note I think people are sleeping on Jeanne as an echo. She makes just too much sense. Not only does she make far too much sense as an echo (much more than Dark Samus, Shadow, Daisy or Isabelle), as she fights almost exactly like Bayo in her core games, and is a central character in the Bayonetta series, she is also quite beloved by Hideki Kamiya who I can see pushing for her addition.

Now that Richter and likely Shadow are in as 3rd party echoes, I think she is quite likely to show up.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Either this was a lucky guess or where now getting gardevior with a gothitelle echo now

I doubt it. This leak is pretty much saying that we're getting Richter instead of Simon....but that's not true.

I'm guessing Richter is probably the second most important Belmont after Simon, so it makes some sense that people would create leaks with him instead of Simon.

I can't imagine anyone seriously likes Gothitelle as a Pokemon. That thing is hideous and was kind of a Gen 5 flop to recapture the appeal of Gardevoir.

I like Gothitelle. Not enough to want them in Smash, but I think they're neat.

 

[Shroob]

Maybe he left some place for eventual DLC so we don't have to toggle between screens?

On another note I think people are sleeping on Jeanne as an echo. She makes just too much sense. Not only does she make far too much sense as an echo (much more than Dark Samus, Shadow, Daisy or Isabelle), as she fights almost exactly like Bayo in her core games, and is a central character in the Bayonetta series, she is also quite beloved by Hideki Kamiya who I can see pushing for her addition.

Now that Richter and likely Shadow are in as 3rd party echoes, I think she is quite likely to show up.

DLC means literally nothing for it to be centered, it would just move over like Smash 4 3DS/WiiU. It being centered would not affect DLC at all.

That space is a deliberate design choice.