Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

^That is Celica adjacent to Megaman, there. I was actually trying to recreate how Brawl ordered the characters. Also, I done forgot about to be honest that I threw in Toon Zelda. Forgive me, this is my first time at this and the roster maker is rather hard for me to follow and I'm not going to spend another hour trying this for a third time. *sigh* This is what being out of school since graduating in the class of 1979 does to me sometimes...

It is pretty hard to make a good roster without hurting anoyne's feelings, so I'll just be on my way.

Sayonara

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

^That is Celica adjacent to Megaman, there. I was actually trying to recreate how Brawl ordered the characters. Also, I done forgot about to be honest that I threw in Toon Zelda. Forgive me, this is my first time at this and the roster maker is rather hard for me to follow and I'm not going to spend another hour trying this for a third time. *sigh* This is what being out of school since graduating in the class of 1979 does to me sometimes...

It is pretty hard to make a good roster without hurting anoyne's feelings, so I'll just be on my way.

Sayonara

Hmm? Nobody's mad. Just giving critique. I just was confused by your placements, as it had some stuff that just felt like they were in weird spots.

My best suggestion is to not be afraid to make it almost like a Tetris style. Basically, it's okay to have a franchise set on a row, but also on a column. Having the characters next to each other isn't a bad thing. But there's always a good potential way to organize your roster. Could be pure character release or alphabetical order, regardless of franchise. Etc.

 

[Nonno Umby]

That's a bad comparison. These are a set of recurring characters(never mind iconic ones). 4 characters who have kept the same artstyle since their debut, or all updated at once. Toon Link almost sticks out, if he didn't have a pure niche and wasn't basically just a clone(and wasn't the exact same kind of update, all 5 being brought to their unique GameCube designs, all of which also fit their moveset best. Toon Ganondorf is vastly different from TP Ganondorf, to say the least). Ganondorf is too important to be left out just literally for the sake of it. He's the franchise's key villain. He's important too(and also why they don't de-clone him as to keep previous players happy, making it easy to adjust to his changes).

The Pokemon all got updated to match their latest designs, but also kept certain Smash elements. Both Metroid characters got updated, not 1. Just adding a new character in a franchise doesn't mean much. When you update a franchise full of characters, consistency helps making them look more presentable. It also helps that their playstyles are adapted based upon the actual design. Toon Link is vastly different from Young Link despite both being the same kind of clone, due to things like the stubby legs, and has many different moves. Link did get an update, but it didn't change his core that much. Ganondorf actually plays more differently due to the extreme loss of speed, but still kept the focus on what he was, a brutal character.

It's not as simple as a complete aesthetic update. You have to make sure it still works well for their moveset. With no way to update Ganondorf(which means he sticks out even worse than Toon Link does), you just leave a really weird looking set of characters, who are blatantly tied to each other design-wise.

You can easily update or ignore Shulk when adding a new character. Nothing changes. If you update the Mario designs, you're left with some who have no way to be updated, so you need to make up some designs for their artstyle. So if they can put together a proper Ganondorf and Sheik BOTW style, that'd be great. Otherwise, TP all over again is honestly realistic.


Well, it's easier to post it in the Roster thread, but you already took care of that~

I will say I don't expect that large of cuts. But otherwise, seems solid. However, KI getting 3 seems a bit silly with Kirby having less than 2/3. Viridi is neat, but she shouldn't be in there while other franchises are super low. IMO, Kirby should have his core 3. I can get why you cut Falco, as he's not as important when you are making a tiny roster. That said, serious issues with your Zelda cast. Ganondorf absolutely needs to be in. Toon Zelda isn't that important in comparison, and even less important than Toon Link. Sheik is an understandable cut in this case, because Ganondorf absolutely should be there(or Ganon if needed). Likewise, Bowser needs to be there too. If you're going this low, Rosalina's a more understandable cut. The core cast should be there before the newer(albeit important in their own right) characters. Is Jigglypuff really necessary in this case? Why not put Lucario, Mewtwo, or Greninja there? I don't think Viridi or Toon Zelda has a big chance at this point. Uprising is already done, and there's no hint of a KI game coming that's new. Toon Zelda pretty much has only one workable gimmick, and Zelda already has that with her Phantom Armor move. Besides, Toon Link is vastly more important(as I said before) and has no business being cut.

Overall, I'd suggest making it bigger and adding the core cast back(and the original 12 being there, of course). Being Toon Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, Falco, King Dedede, Meta Knight, and there's little reason to cut both Capcom options(MegaMan is a bit more important, as he's a bigger icon than Ryu, although not by a severe amount). Pac-Man should stay. As for Pokemon, at least add back Lucario and Mewtwo/Greninja. They should have at least 3-4 characters even on a smaller roster. That said, if you don't return MegaMan or Pac-Man, Duck Hunt should be there for your 40th character.

...Wait, no Fire Emblem characters? Uh, no. It's too important. I can understand not many for obvious reasns, but Marth has to be there. Whether 2 is necessary is hard to say, but Ike or Robin would be good second choices for diversity/importance.

Yeah, but my point still stands that it is quite likely that they will be updated and that Ganondorf will receive an original design, just like how Roy got an original design in Smash 4. Sheik, as I said, will use the Stealth Armour if the update to BotW happens, because it was obviously based on him (they even added only his mask with the amiibo rather than the full costume, meaning that it was meant to be used with the Stealth Armour).

And I doubt that updating their design would invalidate their moveset. Link, Zelda and Sheik don't have this problem since their BotW design fits their moveset, while they can make an intimidating armour for Ganondorf based of BotW that still shows his brutal side. Maybe a dseign based on the Guardian, similar to this armour (minus the elmet obvously)

And if they want to add a new Zelda rep, who will probably come from BotW, no doubt about it, thay have to keep the matching look. Wouldn't Mipha look out of place next to TP Zelda?


In the end what I want to say is that I think it is extremely likely that the TP characters will be updated to a BotW one, even by creating original designs just like how they did with Roy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, but my point still stands that it is quite likely that they will be updated and that Ganondorf will receive an original design, just like how Roy got an original design in Smash 4. Sheik, as I said, will use the Stealth Armour if the update to BotW happens, because it was obviously based on him (they even added only his mask with the amiibo rather than the full costume, meaning that it was meant to be used with the Stealth Armour).

And I doubt that updating their design would invalidate their moveset. Link, Zelda and Sheik don't have this problem since their BotW design fits their moveset, while they can make an intimidating armour for Ganondorf based of BotW that still shows his brutal side. Maybe a dseign based on the Guardian, similar to this armour (minus the elmet obvously)

And if they want to add a new Zelda rep, who will probably come from BotW, no doubt about it, thay have to keep the matching look. Wouldn't Mipha look out of place next to TP Zelda?


In the end what I want to say is that I think it is extremely likely that the TP characters will be updated to a BotW one, even by creating original designs just like how they did with Roy.

Again, a new character isn't the same thing as updating older characters. Especially a consistent set of 4 characters. Adding Mipha doesn't mean much. Remember, they didn't change the style in 4 beyond giving them bits and pieces of SS to their designs, enough to slightly change the artstyle. This works well without breaking what makes them look well together.

And I don't really buy that BOTW is the only way we'll get a new character anyway. I don't honestly think we have a good chance of getting one. It's a great game, obviously, but it also didn't add a core cast member(beyond reinventing Ganon, who feels like the only likely one if any beyond maybe Wild Link as a completely separate character) either. The point of the Zelda cast is having the core characters, not adding anyone who is really cool. Ganondorf may have been lucky to get in, obviously, but it still doesn't change the fact that he's kept in for being a core character, like the other 4.

I don't honestly believe there's a good chance for a BOTW design. If there's concept arts for Ganondorf, then yes, it has a fair chance. But that's kind of it.

You seem to be missing the key point I'm making. The core 4 have never been a different design at any given time. Sheik only stayed because she had a TP concept art. She would've been cut otherwise. However, they can't actually cut anyone but her at best, because they're significantly more important. Now Sakurai has kept their core designs always equal to each other. That is, those 4 and specifically those 4. He doesn't do this much at all with other series. Metroid is a clear example of following the same philosophy. Pokemon seems to be the case, but I can't really say for sure as I didn't pay attention to the designs that much. I obviously spoke of exceptions, like Fire Emblem, due to having a very inconsistent cast overall, which means different artstyles are inevitable. Any series with a rotating cast or constantly getting new members has no reason for consistent design styles. They won't clash anyway because it's not like they specifically chose a set of characters to always update all at once. When only two series has done this, well, ever(and Metroid has kept both Samusi the same artstyle, although to be fair, it's been one game since ZSS' Smash debut otherwise).

And your Ganondorf example? That's shoehorning in a design. It should not be done for the sake of it. It's more acceptable to take design cues from the various Ganon versions, but that might not work anyway. Because we already knew he's not getting a serious moveset overhaul, not to the point where he won't be a clone at all, anyway(even Luigi still has moves from Mario, and this was from the first game. Jigglypuff from Kirby too, respectively). It doesn't make any real sense to give him the ancient armor anyway. As I said before with Sheik, there's armor similar to her design, so that's remotely workable. And yes, they have made the moveset match their design changes. Ganondorf only became super slow when he was updated to his super slow version from TP, who, unlike regular Ganondorf(OOT) and Toon Ganondorf, isn't agile or anything like that. His extreme strength and brutality is not really present outside of TP(there's some roughness in WW, but not to the same degree). Link was given more than one TP asset). Toon Link speaks for itself. Zelda and Sheik were changed the least beyond their designs, but some do get updated with new moveset options, sometimes tied to their designs. At least 3 characters got moveset changes specific to the designs. This is normal for the Zelda cast especially.

And that leads to a bigger issue. How do you update to new attack choices beyond regular Link? Ganondorf has jack-all for options from BOTW. And I mean real options. You could make use a little bit of the Sheikah Slate for Zelda and Sheik, but there's far better stuff, like the Champion abilities, that could potentially fit some. Daruk's Protection easily could fit in place as an alternate to Nayru's Love as a custom, for instance. I don't think Revali's Gale is... really possible to incorporate other than a custom for Link to give him significant air time(and probably make his damage/knockback drop hard in return for the extreme height?). I legit can't remember the other two Guardian abilities, though.

 

[NintenRob]

In my eyes, I can see BOTW designs happening, BUT I struggle to see them ditching the green tunic, and even the green tunic that is in BOTW differs a fair bit to the ones seen in past Smash games.

If both happens, I think the following is most ideal.

Link is based on various incarnations. I think he'll have the hair and body of botw Linkbut the clothing of either Oot Link or TP Link. I lean towards Oot Link because the Dark Link outfit is actually based on this design. This is because every smash game, Link has the white underwear clothing and it looks better on alts like Fierce Deity and Skyward clothing. He would use travellers Bow, the standard Korok made boomerang (or keep the gale so he can keep the wind effect) standard generic bombs with remote bomb custom. Of course Champion tunic is an alt with no hat

Zeldas would get the dress I think from both, the blue official looking one because I think her outdoor outfit would look weird with her moveset that is fine for her and doesn't need changing aside from a few buffs. Ideally she'd finally get alts based on other incarnations which would work fine for her because each are visually different. But I can definitely see that dress happening. It's how she was designed in Smash. And dress gives better act potential because I don't see both happening

Sheik.
We all agree what that this would be, she's actually the most clear cut in what her design would be of the Zelda cast, which is odd because she's the only one who doesn't actually appear aside from Toon Link

Ganondorf may not appear in human form, but the game gives plenty to offer a new design
His arm sleeves and pants could resemble a more armoured Voe outfit. His hair would have a similar look to the phantoms and himself. But about the length of the barbarian outfit if it didn't have braids. His armour can definitely have subtle guardian stuff on it like his current one has Twilight stuff. Calamity Ganon actually has a somewhat Ganondorf face. It would likely be unchanged. Throw in the cape seen on the phantom Ganon doc armour from oot and some Yiga stuff and you get a pretty solid BOTW Ganondorf.


Also Skull Kid is playable, based on his look in Majora's Mask because not every character needs to look like they're from the same game and Majora's Mask is in botw with an identical look anyway, so Skull Kid would likely be identical.

 

[Cosmic77]

I feel like the Champions are a pipe dream to be honest and Wild Link is straight up terrible. All in all what we have now in Zelda reps are staying, for damn sure, and whomever comes next will have to be an evolving character that really really stands out and I just don't think any of the characters in Breath of the Wild really do that. Considering that that games biggest new character is the open world itself, yeah, I don't think we're getting a new character from BotW, which isn't, despite common belief, a bad thing.

And I don't really buy that BOTW is the only way we'll get a new character anyway. I don't honestly think we have a good chance of getting one. It's a great game, obviously, but it also didn't add a core cast member(beyond reinventing Ganon, who feels like the only likely one if any beyond maybe Wild Link as a completely separate character) either. The point of the Zelda cast is having the core characters, not adding anyone who is really cool. Ganondorf may have been lucky to get in, obviously, but it still doesn't change the fact that he's kept in for being a core character, like the other 4.

I know I've probably gone over all of this before, but a BotW character is still very likely. Out of every Zelda character we can consider for Smash 5, the ones who debuted in BotW seem to have the greatest chance of being added for numerous reasons (Which I'm not gonna even bother listing. It sold well... blah blah blah. It's the newest game... yada yada yada. Sidon needs to be in Smash. I'm sure we all get the gist of it). If your reasoning behind not believing a BotW character is likely is because, "Daruk didn't do nearly as much in BotW as Midna did in TP," or, "Urbosa isn't as iconic as Skull Kid," or even, "Mipha's backstory wasn't even tragic enough for her to deserve a spot in Smash. Besides, what can she even do?" then you have the wrong mentality here. You can't compare the role of a BotW character to someone from another Zelda game. All that matters is how they stack up against characters from their own game. Obviously BotW characters won't be as iconic as an older Zelda character. This game isn't even a year old yet; give it some time to age. We don't need some heartwarming Hallmark movie character who's holding a giant sign that reads, "HEY SAKURAI! I HAVE AN OBVIOUS MOVESET! PICK ME!" If Sakurai thinks they have potential, they're golden (Did anyone think the highly developed Wii Fit Trainer was likely before E3 2013?).

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to say that a BotW character is guaranteed, but I would like for people to not write it off so soon. It has a chance of happening. Just try to keep an open mind.

 

[Deleted member]

I like Mario's current move - set a lot, but I am a little bit afraid they will change it to resemble the Nintendo Switch version. Maybe not, maybe Cappy will just be a hat. Some Mario Odyssey skins that should make it in are Mario's regular outfit from Mario Odyssey, Mario in his wedding outfit and beach Mario ( shirtless bathing suit Mario ).

 

[PeridotGX]

I like Mario's current move - set a lot, but I am a little bit afraid they will change it to resemble the Nintendo Switch version. Maybe not, maybe Cappy will just be a hat. Some Mario Odyssey skins that should make it in are Mario's regular outfit from Mario Odyssey, Mario in his wedding outfit and beach Mario ( shirtless bathing suit Mario ).

I don't think they'll change anything that major, save for changing one of his specials to a hat toss. I don't know which one, any but up-b makes sense.

 

[Lukingordex]

Wrong topic sorry lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I know I've probably gone over all of this before, but a BotW character is still very likely. Out of every Zelda character we can consider for Smash 5, the ones who debuted in BotW seem to have the greatest chance of being added for numerous reasons (Which I'm not gonna even bother listing. It sold well... blah blah blah. It's the newest game... yada yada yada. Sidon needs to be in Smash. I'm sure we all get the gist of it). If your reasoning behind not believing a BotW character is likely is because, "Daruk didn't do nearly as much in BotW as Midna did in TP," or, "Urbosa isn't as iconic as Skull Kid," or even, "Mipha's backstory wasn't even tragic enough for her to deserve a spot in Smash. Besides, what can she even do?" then you have the wrong mentality here. You can't compare the role of a BotW character to someone from another Zelda game. All that matters is how they stack up against characters from their own game. Obviously BotW characters won't be as iconic as an older Zelda character. This game isn't even a year old yet; give it some time to age. We don't need some heartwarming Hallmark movie character who's holding a giant sign that reads, "HEY SAKURAI! I HAVE AN OBVIOUS MOVESET! PICK ME!" If Sakurai thinks they have potential, they're golden (Did anyone think the highly developed Wii Fit Trainer was likely before E3 2013?).

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to say that a BotW character is guaranteed, but I would like for people to not write it off so soon. It has a chance of happening. Just try to keep an open mind.

Honestly, with the Zelda series, we really do need a sign over it saying "moveset potential!". He only really cares about making the core characters playable, as they're important throughout more than one game. BOTW doesn't have some blatantly recurring characters.

And that's extremely important. The Zelda series doesn't really need one-offs to have a good set. Using some assets is a great idea, and the game deserves content for many reasons. But that doesn't mean a character is likely at all. GOTY doesn't mean a character is likely. Them pushing the amiibo uniquely doesn't make a character likely. The fact that they've had tons of important Zelda characters and even important recurring ones be nothing more than Trophies/Assist Trophies bar the core 5 since Melee is what makes it unlikely. He's been fairly strict on the series alone. He won't update the designs just because a new game came out, he's kept the core 4 Adult characters the same design overall, Toon Link will always have the same specials Adult Link(obviously they can still have properties modified, but it will always be the Spin Attack, Boomerang, Bow, and Bombs, and of course, the Triforce Slash). No series has he really had any strictness over to the same degree. Closest thing I think has any remote chance other than Wild Link(which already is undesirable, and I wouldn't put him that high, although higher than any other character from BOTW easily) is a remodified Ganon(and I don't mean Dorf, I mean a somewhat original design, not much different from how TP Sheik is an original design) based upon the Blight versions, which of course is an all new characters and doesn't have to pertain to any rules he has for the other Zelda ones. Of course, I expect zero newcomers(bar maybe Impa?), lots of BOTW content(Trophies, Music, possibly two stages), some costumes from it for the characters, maybe a tiny set move updates related to it, and that's about it. I've been keeping my expectations low due to how he keeps the series overall. I've wanted more(especially Tingle), but I realized just recurring alone isn't enough, nor is an important game appearance alone, to stand a remote chance.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

I don't think they'll change anything that major, save for changing one of his specials to a hat toss. I don't know which one, any but up-b makes sense.

I'd say Down-Special. Sunshine seems a bit outdated at this point and F.L.U.D.D is kinda niche (Mario is my secondary and I almost never use it). You could say that Cape is a bit outdated but not only has it always been his side special but it's also more iconic and is a lot more versatile and useful.

They won't remove fireball or Super Jump Punch, and I can't see Mario having his F.L.U.D.D. over his cape.

Or they might not change it at all, but that seems unlikely.

EDIT: Speaking of reworks, some characters (like Ganondorf) could use a rework. Who do you think could use one?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd say Down-Special. Sunshine seems a bit outdated at this point and F.L.U.D.D is kinda niche (Mario is my secondary and I almost never use it). You could say that Cape is a bit outdated but not only has it always been his side special but it's also more iconic and is a lot more versatile and useful.

They won't remove fireball or Super Jump Punch, and I can't see Mario having his F.L.U.D.D. over his cape.

Or they might not change it at all, but that seems unlikely.

Funny thing is that FLUDD has one of its abilities in Odyssey, which is the Nozzle you use for running speed. I forget its name. Dash Nozzle? Run Nozzle? Speed Nozzle? Bleh.

Anyway, I feel like just throwing it in there isn't enough at all. It actually does act like the Cape in the air in Smash and gives you some delayed moments in your height, so I could see it replacing the Cape instead. And it could still do the same thing, by turning them around or a projectile around, just using basically a different design. It'd have a lot more range, to say the least(although they could make the range much smaller in Smash for balance reasons, but it wouldn't be literally right in front of him). In a twist, it'd separate Doc and regular even more.

 

[Deleted member]

Keep in mind that if we only included the "most important characters" from every franchise, Super Mario would have probably stopped after the inclusion of Peach and Bowser in Melee. Say goodbye to Junior and Rosa.

In a way, the Zelda series is no different than Fire Emblem. Both the franchises' games always take place in a different setting with a new cast of characters. The only difference is that the Zelda series usually reuses the same three main characters for their games. Because of this, I feel like we've created the false assumption that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the ONLY characters from the Zelda series that we need or make sense. Obviously characters like Midna, Girahim, and Revali are not likely to appear in another game, but is that really a good enough reason to rob ourselves of a potentially great fighter from the third most popular Nintendo franchise? Zelda will never have as many options as readily available as Pokémon or Fire Emblem, so if Sakurai can come up with a decent idea for a Zelda character, I'll take it. Besides, we haven't gotten a unique Zelda character since Melee. I'm dying over here.

That's not entirely true. Toon Zelda, Tingle, and Impa are examples of characters that have made reappearances throughout the franchise so Zelda doesn't fit as well into the revolving cast scenario as people think. Plus there's the Triforce, which in itself is a character.

Also this bears repeating but people are way too lenient about saying that "Smash needs X character". The word, "need", implies that someone is essential or very important to have or do and for the most part, we're far past that. For a character to be necessary to add, a person has to make a strong case for why their inclusion would bring a considerable amount of sales for people who otherwise won't be interested. We added all of these crucial characters back in Brawl and the result is that Smash 4's roster added a bunch of "nice to have but can live without" additions. That's why we saw characters like Wii Fit Trainer and Mii join the roster; they're not going to drive sales by themselves but they are unique decisions that Sakurai can now afford to make because despite low fan demand, they won't drive down sales. Even Mega Man, the only character added because of the fans on the base roster, is not a big seller since he's still a league down Sonic. Unless they are the Inklings, Smash 5's newcomers and returning veterans will be the same song and dance.

A Breath of the Wild newcomer falls far short of that. Excluding them will have no effect on sales of the next Smash game because as you have said, their importance to Nintendo and Zelda is much less than that of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. A few sad faces by not including another Zelda character won't equate to lower sales since all of these people will already want Smash already. That goes for everyone else.

For the record, I'm not saying that it would be bad to add a Zelda newcomer or that I'm against one. But I fail to see how anyone could claim something so high as to say we need one in when they really mean "they should add one in". If we stop confusing "need" with "should", perhaps we wouldn't get so upset when some of our favorite characters don't make the cut.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Funny thing is that FLUDD has one of its abilities in Odyssey, which is the Nozzle you use for running speed. I forget its name. Dash Nozzle? Run Nozzle? Speed Nozzle? Bleh.

Anyway, I feel like just throwing it in there isn't enough at all. It actually does act like the Cape in the air in Smash and gives you some delayed moments in your height, so I could see it replacing the Cape instead. And it could still do the same thing, by turning them around or a projectile around, just using basically a different design. It'd have a lot more range, to say the least(although they could make the range much smaller in Smash for balance reasons, but it wouldn't be literally right in front of him). In a twist, it'd separate Doc and regular even more.

Hmm. Interesting thoughts. I actually didn't know that the F.L.U.D.D. was in odyssey. It's either Cape or F.L.U.D.D. that's going, or we might get a "Mario and Cappy" (or just Cappy) fighter. I was thinking how Cappy would work is Mario would throw him forward, and hitting Special again would cause him to dive. Cappy would deal low damage at a fast rate to anyone on top of him (except Mario, of course). Additionally, he could have a windbox around him if he replaces the F.L.U.D.D., or he could be a weak reflector if he replaces Cape. That way he could actually be a "modern replacement" for the special instead of "Completely different ability that makes him play way differently".

EDIT: Actually, Cappy could replace Cape if he spun the opponents around (like Pikachu's DSmash, for example). It would also fix Mario's poor projectile game and (partially) his range, so no matter what it replaces it'll likely be a buff (DSpecial) or slight buff (Cape).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hmm. Interesting thoughts. I actually didn't know that the F.L.U.D.D. was in odyssey. It's either Cape or F.L.U.D.D. that's going, or we might get a "Mario and Cappy" (or just Cappy) fighter. I was thinking how Cappy would work is Mario would throw him forward, and hitting Special again would cause him to dive. Cappy would deal low damage at a fast rate to anyone on top of him (except Mario, of course). Additionally, he could have a windbox around him if he replaces the F.L.U.D.D., or he could be a weak reflector if he replaces Cape. That way he could actually be a "modern replacement" for the special instead of "Completely different ability that makes him play way differently".

EDIT: Actually, Cappy could replace Cape if he spun the opponents around (like Pikachu's DSmash, for example). It would also fix Mario's poor projectile game and (partially) his range, so no matter what it replaces it'll likely be a buff (DSpecial) or slight buff (Cape).

FLUDD isn't in there. Just one of the nozzles at least. A lot of stuff was easy to throw into the game from previous games as something you can activate with your cap.

And yeah, I felt replacing Cape works a bit better. FLUDD, contrary to popular belief, has been used to edgeguard, so it still has a worthwhile reason to keep. Having zero damage but knockback, or more importantly, the fact it doesn't give back the jump, is a great asset to his moves.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

FLUDD isn't in there. Just one of the nozzles at least. A lot of stuff was easy to throw into the game from previous games as something you can activate with your cap.

And yeah, I felt replacing Cape works a bit better. FLUDD, contrary to popular belief, has been used to edgeguard, so it still has a worthwhile reason to keep. Having zero damage but knockback, or more importantly, the fact it doesn't give back the jump, is a great asset to his moves.

Yeah, I'm just too bad to use it

EDIT: Oh yeah, the nozzle flower things. Right.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I know I've probably gone over all of this before, but a BotW character is still very likely. Out of every Zelda character we can consider for Smash 5, the ones who debuted in BotW seem to have the greatest chance of being added for numerous reasons (Which I'm not gonna even bother listing. It sold well... blah blah blah. It's the newest game... yada yada yada. Sidon needs to be in Smash. I'm sure we all get the gist of it). If your reasoning behind not believing a BotW character is likely is because, "Daruk didn't do nearly as much in BotW as Midna did in TP," or, "Urbosa isn't as iconic as Skull Kid," or even, "Mipha's backstory wasn't even tragic enough for her to deserve a spot in Smash. Besides, what can she even do?" then you have the wrong mentality here. You can't compare the role of a BotW character to someone from another Zelda game. All that matters is how they stack up against characters from their own game. Obviously BotW characters won't be as iconic as an older Zelda character. This game isn't even a year old yet; give it some time to age. We don't need some heartwarming Hallmark movie character who's holding a giant sign that reads, "HEY SAKURAI! I HAVE AN OBVIOUS MOVESET! PICK ME!" If Sakurai thinks they have potential, they're golden (Did anyone think the highly developed Wii Fit Trainer was likely before E3 2013?).

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to say that a BotW character is guaranteed, but I would like for people to not write it off so soon. It has a chance of happening. Just try to keep an open mind.

I'm not going to say it's impossible but, think about it, the characters were purposely given the sideline in BotW because they wanted the world to be the Character.

Looking back on previous games Groose, Skull Kid, Ghirahim, Vaati, Tingle, and even Impa all made a FAR bigger splash in terms of popularity and character importance. Breath of the Wild doesn't make a big deal out of it's characters and it soars because of that. It's you alone with the world. They aren't going to add a character just because the game sold well nor would they add one for the sake it's the newest. It's a matter of multiple different circumstances.

 

[Geno Boost]

if FLUDD is taken away from Mario in the next smash game then i would want to have Robo Mario and FLUDD as a duo (since both were created by e. gadd) with Mario sunshine type of moveset

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm not going to say it's impossible but, think about it, the characters were purposely given the sideline in BotW because they wanted the world to be the Character.

Looking back on previous games Groose, Skull Kid, Ghirahim, Vaati, Tingle, and even Impa all made a FAR bigger splash in terms of popularity and character importance. Breath of the Wild doesn't make a big deal out of it's characters and it soars because of that. It's you alone with the world. They aren't going to add a character just because the game sold well nor would they add one for the sake it's the newest. It's a matter of multiple different circumstances.

Now I want Hyrule as a newcomer in Smash 5.

Not a new stage, an actual playble character.

​

 

[Staarih]

Could Cappy not just replace FLUDD but still work essentially the same (no damage, just push)? So essentially just an aesthetic change. I'm not too deep into how the attacks are actually built in Smash, but while you need to charge and release FLUDD, couldn't the same mechanic be used to Cappy just to push opponents (throw him and keep him spinning like you can in Odyssey). That would seem like an easy replacement if they want any Odyssey-references, but I dunno if it actually works.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Could Cappy not just replace FLUDD but still work essentially the same (no damage, just push)? So essentially just an aesthetic change. I'm not too deep into how the attacks are actually built in Smash, but while you need to charge and release FLUDD, couldn't the same mechanic be used to Cappy just to push opponents (throw him and keep him spinning like you can in Odyssey). That would seem like an easy replacement if they want any Odyssey-references, but I dunno if it actually works.

Cappy doesn't work similarly to FLUDD, really. It has more in common with Smash's own Cape. The jump-related antics, how it affects projectiles, and can certainly affects enemies in many ways. It can stun them too. FLUDD more or less is pretty different.

I don't think Cappy needs to be put in beyond a costume, but I do hope we get some nice Odyssey assets~

 

[FangleManiac]

I am pretty nervous about posting here since this is my first time constructing my own roster. Okay, considering the reduction of playable characters from Tekken Tag Tournament going into Tekken 4, I decided to take that same approach with my roster by doing the 30-character-roster challenge. Of course, the original twelve are here to stay as well as at least three veterans each from Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. Also threw in three newcomers I predict will be in the next Smash. Hope y'all like it, 'cause the decisions on who to omit was a very hard one. Here it is...


Sayonara

The big glaring hole in this roster is the complete omission of Fire Emblem, especially when you have three Kid Icarus reps. I could have understood cutting FE pre-Awawkening, but the series is far too important nowadays to not be represented.

Other Suggestions:
-Cut Rosa and put Bowser in, he is far more important
-Ashley is not important enough, especially since WarioWare hasn't had a new game in years.
-Toon Zelda over Toon Link would never happen
-Cut Palutena and Viridi, Kid Icarus only has three games in existence, three unique reps is way too much
-Add Marth at the very least, and possibly Ike or Robin as a #2 FE rep
-Remove one retro rep, preferably ROB.

And ban, this roster would be much better.

Of the Mario characters I would like, Paper Mario would definitely take the top spot. Ofcourse, it raises the issue of their being three Mario's, but Paper Mario would be so unique that it wouldn't feel too odd. I think he deserves to be in. The Mario RPG series can be best represented by him and only him. SuperStar Saga chars are Square owned, Mario&Luigi, are, well already in the game, leaving us with Paper Mario.

Though by including Paper Mario, that would also make BotW Link's chances as a standalone third Link also be more viable (which would be okay in my book, since the Shiekah Runes and Guardian Powers would make him stand out much more than Twilight Princess and WindWaker Link).

Though Three Mario's and Three Link's may seem like overkill, Paper Mario and BotW Link would be so unique that it almost justifies it.

And also, I think that an easy way to avoid this situation is to cut Dr. Mario (or make him an alt.) and replace Twilight Princess Link completely with BotW Link. However, the thing with this is that Dr. Mario is such an easy clone to make that he does not take away a slot from another potential character and should thus remain for the sake of more characters overall and BotW Link would clash artstyle wise with Ganondorf, who does not have a BotW form.

 

[Diddy Kong]

BOTW designs for everyone wont' work. Ganondorf and Toon Link aren't there. Neither is Sheik but I'll accept the costume idea.

Hyrule Warriors designs however, would work wonderfully. And would allow for quite a few nice moveset changes for Zelda, Ganondorf and Toon Link.

And why wouldn't there be a Zelda newcomer? Because all major characters are there (except Impa)? Wasn't the same exact thing said about Mario's playable cast after Brawl?

If one of Nintendo's biggest franchises ever, which had a major release every console and more, cannot get a new character, all hope is LOST for just about any veteran Nintendo franchise. After DKC, I see a new Zelda character as just about one of the more important core Nintendo additions. If not now, then never.

 

[Deleted member]

The only moveset overhaul would need is his Final Smash turning from this:

To this:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

BOTW designs for everyone wont' work. Ganondorf and Toon Link aren't there. Neither is Sheik but I'll accept the costume idea.

Hyrule Warriors designs however, would work wonderfully. And would allow for quite a few nice moveset changes for Zelda, Ganondorf and Toon Link.

And why wouldn't there be a Zelda newcomer? Because all major characters are there (except Impa)? Wasn't the same exact thing said about Mario's playable cast after Brawl?

If one of Nintendo's biggest franchises ever, which had a major release every console and more, cannot get a new character, all hope is LOST for just about any veteran Nintendo franchise. After DKC, I see a new Zelda character as just about one of the more important core Nintendo additions. If not now, then never.

Toon Link was never really meant to be updated equally to the other 4, to be fair. Not in the same way. He's a little unique in that regard.

But yeah, Ganondorf can't be updated either.

It's unlikely HW will be used for that, due to being a non-canon game.

As for a newcomer, Zelda has all the major characters(no, Impa isn't that major. She's recurring but on a lesser level than the Triforce trio, and clearly is put on a lesser pedestal than any versions of the Triforce trio at this point), but could potentially have more.

Also, you're going to notice how Mario didn't get that many new characters as is, with just the core cast in Melee and a clone, nobody new in Brawl, and getting two unique characters that stood out in 4. Fire Emblem gets more due to having an extreme rotating cast, with less easy options for other ways to represent them(Mario also gets tons of items, stages, music, etc., as does Zelda, so to say it doesn't get stuff is silly). I probably shouldn't have to give a reminder that new representation doesn't mean characters, it means representing the newer games any way you can. It all matters. Pokemon got a bit more, but mostly core options and extremely notable new characters.

The problem with Zelda is again, the core cast is the most important. You already had the reason we got a duo in Zelda/Sheik, due to their gimmick and it being the key reason for both. Can't have one without the other. Ganondorf was lucky to get in due to being an easy clone to make thanks to the tech demo alone. If not that, who knows if he had gotten in. Toon Ganondorf in Brawl perhaps? Young Link is a more unique point to make, as they probably would've added Toon Link even if Young Link wasn't there first. Sakurai already said he wants a child Link as is. Anybody else beyond the first five should be recurring, beyond extremely important, and have a clear recurring design to work with. The biggest issue against Impa is she has no consistent design(even Tingle's is more consistent, although to be fair, he did only get a Toon version and that was it. But it's not like Impa who has a large lady version, a crone version, a skinny version, and more variants of the crones, and the original Sheikah design from OOT.

 

[Phil Time]

Playable character, obviously.
He's truly an open slate; almost any kind of potential fighting style Sakurai could imagine, he could give to Waluigi and it would fit. This is because Waluigi is known for tapping into some of the most random of abilities between games, with the only constant being his ability to defy gravity and swim through the sky.

....but he will most likely remain an Assist, sadly.
View attachment 134846

Look at 2:05 of the video.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

The only moveset overhaul would need is his Final Smash turning from this:

To this:

Unfortunately, I think it's more likely Kirby will get a third Final Smash before Mario's is changed.

"Daruk didn't do nearly as much in BotW as Midna did in TP," or, "Urbosa isn't as iconic as Skull Kid," or even, "Mipha's backstory wasn't even tragic enough for her to deserve a spot in Smash.

How come nobody talks about Revali? I though he was always the most popular champion among fans for his hater attitude. I see people suggesting Daruk, Urbosa, and Mipha everywhere for smash but no one ever suggests Revali.

Is it because he's already a clone of Falco without even being in Smash?

 

[Luminario]

How come nobody talks about Revali? I though he was always the most popular champion among fans for his hater attitude. I see people suggesting Daruk, Urbosa, and Mipha everywhere for smash but no one ever suggests Revali.

Is it because he's already a clone of Falco without even being in Smash?

Revali is the most polarizing of the Champions. You either adore him for the way he acts or hate him. Personally, I think he's a total ***hole and hope to never see him again. Both Mipha and Urbosa are consistently more liked by the general people who know the game, and while Daruk isn't exactly on many people's favourite list he's much more casually appreciated and no one seems to outright hate him.

 

[Opossum]

Unfortunately, I think it's more likely Kirby will get a third Final Smash before Mario's is changed.


How come nobody talks about Revali? I though he was always the most popular champion among fans for his hater attitude. I see people suggesting Daruk, Urbosa, and Mipha everywhere for smash but no one ever suggests Revali.

Is it because he's already a clone of Falco without even being in Smash?

Because my preferred bird archer uses Grass attacks.

 

[NintenRob]

BOTW designs for everyone wont' work. Ganondorf and Toon Link aren't there. Neither is Sheik but I'll accept the costume idea.

As I said above, coming up with a new design wouldn't be that difficult as they have plenty of stuff in the game that could be pulled from to help make it

The Ganons themselves
Gerudo stuff
Yiga
Guardians

From what I said above

Ganondorf may not appear in human form, but the game gives plenty to offer a new design
His arm sleeves and pants could resemble a more armoured Voe outfit. His hair would have a similar look to the phantoms and himself. But about the length of the barbarian outfit if it didn't have braids. His armour can definitely have subtle guardian stuff on it like his current one has Twilight stuff. Calamity Ganon actually has a somewhat Ganondorf face. It would likely be unchanged. Throw in the cape seen on the phantom Ganon dlc armour from oot and some Yiga stuff and you get a pretty solid BOTW Ganondorf. And even an extra small detail could be amber earrings.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

if FLUDD is taken away from Mario in the next smash game then i would want to have Robo Mario and FLUDD as a duo (since both were created by e. gadd) with Mario sunshine type of moveset

E.Gadd....now there could be a quirky addition!

Maybe Mario could loan FLUDD to him for use in Smash

 

[GolisoPower]

Ganondorf may not appear in human form, but the game gives plenty to offer a new design
His arm sleeves and pants could resemble a more armoured Voe outfit. His hair would have a similar look to the phantoms and himself. But about the length of the barbarian outfit if it didn't have braids. His armour can definitely have subtle guardian stuff on it like his current one has Twilight stuff. Calamity Ganon actually has a somewhat Ganondorf face. It would likely be unchanged. Throw in the cape seen on the phantom Ganon dlc armour from oot and some Yiga stuff and you get a pretty solid BOTW Ganondorf. And even an extra small detail could be amber earrings.

Regarding the design for Ganondorf: maybe he could have a battle damage aesthetic similar to Little Mac? But instead of bruises and bandages, his skin would chip away to reveal Malice underneath. While undamaged maybe he could have some veins on his body that are glowing with the stuff, too?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

My one issue with a BOTW newcomer is mainly...

Who would you pick?

The choice of newcomers simply falls to mere preference because the four champions have exactly the same impact, plot importance and potential for gameplay.

We ain't getting all four, or only three or two, so who do you pick?

I think the lack of a clear stand out character is what puts a dent in the chance of a BOTW newcomer.

 

[Opossum]

My one issue with a BOTW newcomer is mainly...

Who would you pick?

The choice of newcomers simply falls to mere preference because the four champions have exactly the same impact, plot importance and potential for gameplay.

We ain't getting all four, or only three or two, so who do you pick?

I think the lack of a clear stand out character is what puts a dent in the chance of a BOTW newcomer.

Personally I think either Daruk or Mipha is the way to go.

Gorons and Zoras are some of the most recurring Zelda races, so having a Champion from them, a literal embodiment of their species, in Smash could be a nice draw. For those who harp over Zelda characters needing to be recurring, this fulfills that in a slightly different way, as well. Both of their weapons and personalities offer neat playstyle options (Daruk as a superheavyweight with a giant sword-but-really-a-club and earth-based attacks, and Mipha with graceful water-imbued attacks and a trident). Both are also non-controversial choices.

Those two offer more than any other potential Zelda newcomer, in my opinion. Rivali being more controversial as a character and a Rito, which aren't nearly as important to the series, and Urbosa being another sword user and another Gerudo give themselves less of a draw compared to Mipha and Daruk, I think.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I think either Daruk or Mipha is the way to go.

Gorons and Zoras are some of the most recurring Zelda races, so having a Champion from them, a literal embodiment of their species, in Smash could be a nice draw. For those who harp over Zelda characters needing to be recurring, this fulfills that in a slightly different way, as well. Both of their weapons and personalities offer neat playstyle options (Daruk as a superheavyweight with a giant sword-but-really-a-club and earth-based attacks, and Mipha with graceful water-imbued attacks and a trident). Both are also non-controversial choices.

Those two offer more than any other potential Zelda newcomer, in my opinion. Rivali being more controversial as a character and a Rito, which aren't nearly as important to the series, and Urbosa being another sword user and another Gerudo give themselves less of a draw compared to Mipha and Daruk, I think.

Okay.

Between those two who is it?

 

[N3ON]

I think we probably will get a Zelda newcomer, and I think that character will stem from BotW. Between the fact that the series went unchanged last time, BotW's massive reception, and the size of the series, it seems a likelihood to me.

I can understand why people may disagree. It's true that Zelda's "core cast" is, more or less, already there, but if any series were to dip into its b-tier as Mario did this time, it'd be Zelda; the next in line. I understand the argument that other characters in the series would make more sense to add than a champion or something, and I actually do agree with that. I think characters like Impa or Tingle, or even Midna or Skull Kid are preferable choices, but that's not really how inclusion seems to work these days. It's all about what has happened recently, typically since the last Smash, and BotW was a huge happening.

In that vein I do think the likeliest outcome is a champion. There are other options, like a third Link (which would work moveset wise, but seems more than superfluous), but I do think past choices like Greninja seem to indicate Sakurai is not adverse to choosing a single character from a pool of ostensible "equals". My guess would either be Urbosa or Mipha, who seem most popular (given all the champions are feasible fighters).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think we probably will get a Zelda newcomer, and I think that character will stem from BotW. Between the fact that the series went unchanged last time, BotW's massive reception, and the size of the series, it seems a likelihood to me.

I can understand why people may disagree. It's true that Zelda's "core cast" is, more or less, already there, but if any series were to dip into its b-tier as Mario did this time, it'd be Zelda; the next in line. I understand the argument that other characters in the series would make more sense to add than a champion or something, and I actually do agree with that. I think characters like Impa or Tingle, or even Midna or Skull Kid are preferable choices, but that's not really how inclusion seems to work these days. It's all about what has happened recently, typically since the last Smash, and BotW was a huge happening.

In that vein I do think the likeliest outcome is a champion. There are other options, like a third Link (which would work moveset wise, but seems more than superfluous), but I do think past choices like Greninja seem to indicate Sakurai is not adverse to choosing a single character from a pool of ostensible "equals". My guess would either be Urbosa or Mipha, who seem most popular (given all the champions are feasible fighters).

He could also bring Sidon because why the heck not

 

[Krysco]

Meanwhile, I'm here with Ganon, Toon Ganondorf, Toon Zelda, Tetra and Black Shadow as my most wanted Zelda newcomers. And yes, I'm counting the F-ZERO pilot as a 'Zelda' character because I want Ganondorf to have an original moveset but also want to be able to be 'slow, strong Captain Falcon' too. Not like he'd be out of place anymore since the likes of Lucas and Wii Fit Trainer have gotten in. Should mention that I'm not against a Champion coming in but I think they'd work better as Assist Trophies honestly. Kinda like how I'd love to have Galacta Knight be a playable character but he's not very significant in the Kirby series and he wouldn't even work as an alt since he flat out lacks a cape which is needed to replicate Meta Knight's down special. Clone is possible with a different down special. With that in mind, I'd love to have him as an Assist Trophy, 'specially if his theme plays while he's out.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

My one issue with a BOTW newcomer is mainly...

Who would you pick?

The choice of newcomers simply falls to mere preference because the four champions have exactly the same impact, plot importance and potential for gameplay.

We ain't getting all four, or only three or two, so who do you pick?

I think the lack of a clear stand out character is what puts a dent in the chance of a BOTW newcomer.

I can definitely see where you're coming with this, but the issue you brought up could've been applied to many situations in the past. For example, in the Melee days when there was going to be a second Star Fox character, it could've been Falco, Peppy, or Slippy, all characters with the same impact on the Star Fox series up to that point. I also think all three characters had equal move set potential since they would all end up being Fox clones anyway. Falco won out in the end for whatever reason just like one BOTW champion will if one does end up being included.

He could also bring Sidon because why the heck not

Spoiler

Yeah, at least he's still alive

 

[Opossum]

Okay.

Between those two who is it?

I mean, either one would be great. Personally I'd go with Daruk mostly because we haven't gotten a super heavyweight newcomer since Dedede IIRC.