Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[UserKev]

Honestly, I just skipped through the ARMS, third party discussion and made it through the past 3 pages at a fast rate.

The posts I read that refers to Decidueye as the only shoe in gen 7 Pokémon are complete ******** Many explained posts I read for it to be selected are just reasons the fans give it, I swear. Some of these discussions are some of the most frustrating reads.

 

[Luminario]

You guys keep forgetting that Sakurai already said he was working on something and that something isn't released as of now, so unless Nintendo get a new person to direct Smash (which isn't impossible since Iwata isn't in charge anymore), a new Smash game hasn't even been thought of yet.

But what about that job ad looking for developers for Smash 6 from like 2014ish? From my understanding it came from a reputable source and wasn't debunked.
Smash is always a system seller, I don't see why they wouldn't have it in development as soon as possible.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nothing indicates that working on Sheik cost Ganondorf an unique moveset. That would imply that Sakurai felt the need to make him unique which he doesn't. Sakurai could have all the time in the world and he's still not changing his stance on clones.

Also I don't see why the five Zelda characters we have are bad choices. All except Sheik are the most important characters in the series and even with Sheik, she provides an unique, enjoyable moveset that has made her one of the more popular inclusion in Smash.

Lastly, don't roast Zelda characters for not showing up when you advocate for King K. Rool and Dixie Kong in the same post. DK character supporters should know better than to support cuts for not showing up recently.

Quite hypocritial of you cause Zelda gets a major release far more often than Donkey Kong Country, and unlike DKC, the Zelda franchise never was on a hiatus nor lost their whole development team by a buy out. They are simply not comparable to each other. And even IF, Dixie Kong still has full relevancy because of Tropical Freeze.

The 5 Zelda choices right now are bad choices cause they all came from one giant batch of Zelda newcomers in Melee, and they didn't adjust them ever since. Only gave Ganondorf like 2 new moves every since, which still don't really fit his persona, and split up Zelda and Sheik because after Melee, it never made sense anyway.

All major franchises had cuts in the past, Mario lost Dr.Mario, but alas he came back, same with Fire Emblem and Roy. Pokemon legitimately lost Pichu, Squirtle and Ivysaur, who are still iconic and popular in their own right, and even Mewtwo was lost during Brawl.

If the Zelda franchise is FINALLY getting a legit newcomer in 15 years, or maybe even more than one newcomer as the same thing happened with Mario during Smash 4, I expect that the new faces will have priority over the old. And as you said yourself, Sheik would be the last priority due to her lack of overall relevance to the franchise.

But apperantly we're in the same looping circle again where a "veterans are HOLY DON'T TOUCH"-mentality excists. Happens once every 10-20 pages so yeah ...

Sheik IS the most logical choice to axe from The Legend of Zelda franchise out of all the Zelda characters on the roster. At the same time, Impa is the most logical choice to include. Doesn't mean that Sheik will be axed for Impa, they can easily co-exist. But if say, another Zelda newcomer makes it in, like a Champion as Daruk or Urbosa, I expect no Sheik, or she'll be DLC.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But what about that job ad looking for developers for Smash 6 from like 2014ish? From my understanding it came from a reputable source and wasn't debunked.
Smash is always a system seller, I don't see why they wouldn't have it in development as soon as possible.

I'd say they're probably keeping it for later because they already had some great momentum from 2017, but I don't have an uncle working at Nintendo, so I can't really know

 

[Deleted member]

Nothing indicates that working on Sheik cost Ganondorf an unique moveset. That would imply that Sakurai felt the need to make him unique which he doesn't. Sakurai could have all the time in the world and he's still not changing his stance on clones.

Also I don't see why the five Zelda characters we have are bad choices. All except Sheik are the most important characters in the series and even with Sheik, she provides an unique, enjoyable moveset that has made her one of the more popular inclusion in Smash.

Lastly, don't roast Zelda characters for not showing up when you advocate for King K. Rool and Dixie Kong in the same post. DK character supporters should know better than to support cuts for not showing up recently.
---
So if that happens...

...do we get Ray MK III and Dark Ray MK III?

Thank you for saying what I said in a better term. I like Sheik and all of the Zelda characters, so I think no character should get cut. In other words, thank you for defending Sheik . DK character supporters should be focusing on mainly DK characters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So if that happens...

...do we get Ray MK III and Dark Ray MK III?

Obvsiouly, we'd get Dr. Dark Pink Gold Ray MK III... Jr.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel the exact opposite. Since BotW sold so well, updating the LoZ characters to resemble their latest incarnations (while retaining Link's trademark green cap and vest) just makes sense from a marketing perspective. Sheik and Ganondorf don't make an appearance in BotW? Not a problem. Sakurai can just redesign them and use aspects from BotW (like the Sheik mask Link can wear) to match them with the others. As for Link's weapons, what's the point in updating them to resemble his weapons from BotW if we're just going to keep the Twilight Princess design? Might as well go the extra mile and change his design too.

There is no way his specials are completely changing to any severe degree. They're key staples. The spin attack, bow, boomerang, and bomb are here to stay. The hookshot was changeable since it legitimately wasn't that important in comparison. It showed up infrequently. It even had makeshift replacements, including the stronger Longshot, the Clawshot, the Switchhook, and even the Longhook. IMO, I'd rather they finally give Toon Link some slightly different moves, without outright changing his B moves(Final Smash I feel is not iconic enough to matter, as it's a made-up move, but I understand why it's the same, as Sakurai has a hard rule that their specials need to be the same for both Links), although they really could give him the Grappling Hook instead of the Hookshot for his grab...

Honestly, is matching the designs THAT much of a priority? Sheik exists, and a Zelda newcomer will pop up sooner or later. They can't keep this up forever.

Yes they certainly can. They can keep slowly updating their designs to incorporate bits and pieces till Ganondorf and Sheik get new art or concept art. It's a consistency thing that the series follows. Child Link has his own version, and the other 4 were always the same design type. Remember that Sheik only came back in Brawl because she had TP concept art. The chances of her being cut was at that point, although obviously now she's forever in(bar a reboot game).

-------------

Anyway, Ganondorf got in Melee solely for the fact he had an easy model to port. There was no intention to make him unique. Brawl maybe, as he got some updates. Honestly, we probably would've seen Toon Ganondorf as a unique option before TP Ganondorf anyway, as only one has a clearly usable gimmick for Sakurai to look at.

Also, the reality is this; Sheik and Zelda got in together in Melee. You wouldn't have gotten one without the other. It's their gimmick. No Zelda no means no Sheik. No Sheik means no Zelda. That's like thinking they would've added only one Ice Climber back instead of both as a team. Not happening. Albeit, while they did split, it's because they had full out unique movesets and nobody actually plays them as a duo, which is why they can justify the split just fine overall. It does take away their base gimmick, obviously, but that is tolerable since you still have two extremely thought out movesets. To say the least, Zelda needs buffs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zelda needs buffs cause they balanced her badly. In Melee, the official guides all said: 'Rack up damage as Sheik, do a finishing blow with Zelda'. This horrible sense of balance caused Zelda to ALWAYS be worse than Sheik, even to the point where more than 50% of the lifespan of Smash 4, Sheik was outrightely considered the best character, and Zelda was outrightely considered the worst.

Keeping Sheik will mean Zelda will have just about 0 changes in her moveset, be sure of that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Zelda needs buffs cause they balanced her badly. In Melee, the official guides all said: 'Rack up damage as Sheik, do a finishing blow with Zelda'. This horrible sense of balance caused Zelda to ALWAYS be worse than Sheik, even to the point where more than 50% of the lifespan of Smash 4, Sheik was outrightely considered the best character, and Zelda was outrightely considered the worst.

Keeping Sheik will mean Zelda will have just about 0 changes in her moveset, be sure of that.

Sheik and Zelda are separated now, so that kinda doesn't work anymore. And that's not Sheik's fault, but the play testers and devs' fault for not compensating for the loss of Sheik. Plus it has **** all to do with Impa

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik and Zelda are separated now, so that kinda doesn't work anymore. And that's not Sheik's fault, but the play testers and devs' fault for not compensating for the loss of Sheik. Plus it has **** all to do with Impa

I didn't even say a thing about Impa. I was purely speaking that Zelda / Sheik was as badly balanced as a "unique mechanic project character" just like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer. Yet, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Ice Climbers are gone, but Sheik isn't.

Zelda's bad cause she's supposed to be slow and has nothing working for her and no combos or moves that easily hit or come out fast or without lag, Sheik is the exact opposite; fast, combo-heavy and almost no lag. It's VERY EASY to see to anyone who isn't blindsighted by a "veterans are holy"-mentality. Which is all which is happening here.

'DON'T TOUCH SHEIK, I LIKE HER!'
'SHE'S A MELEE-VETERAN!'
'THE ZELDA/ SHEIK MECHANIC WAS COOL SO SHE STAYS!'
'SHEIK IS A VETERAN, BEGONE AGENT OF SATAN!!'



See this damn post again, where I began this whole fiasco:

Keep Toon Link, throw out Ganondorf and Sheik for Ganon and Impa.

That's my ideal situation. However, I'd be lucky probably if Impa makes it in as an alt or downright clone. Which IS possible, cause Marth and Pit also got clones in Smash 4 and they definitely didn't debut in Smash 4 either.

Toon Link is a FAR better representation of the current Zelda franchise than Sheik and Ganondorf are. So I think that should give him priority, by my own measurements OF COURSE. Let me elaborate that before I get **** on again.

Am far more confident that Toon Link is going to return in the Zelda franchise at this point than Sheik, which is basically confirmed she won't appear every again. Ganondorf? It could go either way, but they seem to prefer using the classic version of Ganon in most recent games.

Buff Link, differenciate Toon Link a little bit more, buff Zelda to the max, add in Impa with Sheikah Slate magic to represent BOTW, and either change up Ganondorf hugely or throw in Ganon. That's how I'd fix the Zelda roster. I would opt for making Sheik DLC if there's a massive outcry for her to return yet again.

AGAIN, THIS IS ACCORDING TO MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION WHICH HAS ZERO ABSOLUTE EFFECT ON WHATEVER SAKURAI / NEW DIRECTOR IS GOING TO DO FOR SMASH BROS. FOR SWITCH.

Now stop putting words in my mouth and see things factual for a damn change.

Thanks to you guys, the Zelda roster is gonna remain the same old boring 2 Links, 2 Zelda's where one is just a dress up plot twist in ONE game, and Captain Falcon but old and fat. All because you cannot picture a different situation at all, EXCEPT for adding ANOTHER DAMN LINK with Robin's weapon durability gimmick.

Good job at that!

Smash community, am proud of you guys.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sheik and Zelda are separated now, so that kinda doesn't work anymore. And that's not Sheik's fault, but the play testers and devs' fault for not compensating for the loss of Sheik. Plus it has **** all to do with Impa

Thissssss. Zelda's own issues were going to exist due to being poorly designed from the beginning. Separating them doesn't change this inherently. She needs buffs, and Sheik is no longer a relevant balancing point. They didn't exactly do much to buff multiple characters, including Jigglypuff, didn't do much to help Ganondorf's severe speed issues, etc. What's notable is Zelda is a slow monk-like spellcaster with bad range, a terrible Side B that leaves her helpless in the air, a fairly bad option for a new Down B that doesn't help her gameplay issues at all, a terrible Up B recovery, and the slightly only decent special she has is the Neutral B, and that doesn't have decent knockback either.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I didn't even say a thing about Impa. I was purely speaking that Zelda / Sheik was as badly balanced as a "unique mechanic project character" just like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer. Yet, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Ice Climbers are gone, but Sheik isn't.

Zelda's bad cause she's supposed to be slow and has nothing working for her and no combos or moves that easily hit or come out fast or without lag, Sheik is the exact opposite; fast, combo-heavy and almost no lag. It's VERY EASY to see to anyone who isn't blindsighted by a "veterans are holy"-mentality. Which is all which is happening here.

'DON'T TOUCH SHEIK, I LIKE HER!'
'SHE'S A MELEE-VETERAN!'
'THE ZELDA/ SHEIK MECHANIC WAS COOL SO SHE STAYS!'
'SHEIK IS A VETERAN, BEGONE AGENT OF SATAN!!'



See this damn post again, where I began this whole fiasco:



Now stop putting words in my mouth and see things factual for a damn change.

Thanks to you guys, the Zelda roster is gonna remain the same old boring 2 Links, 2 Zelda's where one is just a dress up plot twist in ONE game, and Captain Falcon but old and fat. All because you cannot picture a different situation at all, EXCEPT for adding ANOTHER DAMN LINK with Robin's weapon durability gimmick.

Good job at that!

Smash community, am proud of you guys.

Your post was about bashing Sheik. And you've been very vocal about wanting Sheik replaced by Impa. And nice job at conveniently forgetting how I also mention who's ACTUALLY to blame for Zelda's poor balance. Also nice job at saying I want BotW Link despite having never said that and having said the contrary. Meanwhile I think Ganon, Ghirahim, Tingle, the Champions, Linkle, Vaati and Midna all should have at least been under consideration for a character due to them all having cool ****. Cooler than anything Impa will ever do in the main games anyway

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't even say a thing about Impa. I was purely speaking that Zelda / Sheik was as badly balanced as a "unique mechanic project character" just like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer. Yet, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Ice Climbers are gone, but Sheik isn't.

Zelda's bad cause she's supposed to be slow and has nothing working for her and no combos or moves that easily hit or come out fast or without lag, Sheik is the exact opposite; fast, combo-heavy and almost no lag. It's VERY EASY to see to anyone who isn't blindsighted by a "veterans are holy"-mentality. Which is all which is happening here.

'DON'T TOUCH SHEIK, I LIKE HER!'
'SHE'S A MELEE-VETERAN!'
'THE ZELDA/ SHEIK MECHANIC WAS COOL SO SHE STAYS!'
'SHEIK IS A VETERAN, BEGONE AGENT OF SATAN!!'



See this damn post again, where I began this whole fiasco:



Now stop putting words in my mouth and see things factual for a damn change.
Okay okay you can say your opinion

Thanks to you guys, the Zelda roster is gonna remain the same old boring 2 Links, 2 Zelda's where one is just a dress up plot twist in ONE game, and Captain Falcon but old and fat. All because you cannot picture a different situation at all, EXCEPT for adding ANOTHER DAMN LINK with Robin's weapon durability gimmick.

Good job at that!

Smash community, am proud of you guys.

Okay okay okay! Calm down for everyone's sake.

I like the Zelda roster, and no it is not boring. I like destroying everyone with Ganon despite being a Falcon clone, Zelda offers a very diverse play-style that no one else can have and is very interesting. Stop hating on Sheik, the Smash community loves her. If Sakurai got rid of her, the Sheik mains would be displeased, and Sakurai would immediately know. So Sheik is definitely staying, plus as I said before she is a staple to the Smash brothers and gives off some kind of charm. Stop trying to roast the Smash community that you are in, it is disrespectful.

Your post was about bashing Sheik. And you've been very vocal about wanting Sheik replaced by Impa. And nice job at conveniently forgetting how I also mention who's ACTUALLY to blame for Zelda's poor balance. Also nice job at saying I want BotW Link despite having never said that and having said the contrary. Meanwhile I think Ganon, Ghirahim, Tingle, the Champions, Linkle, Vaati and Midna all should have at least been under consideration for a character due to them all having cool ****. Cooler than anything Impa will ever do in the main games anyway

I 100% agree with this, thank you Cutie Gwen .

 

[andimidna]

To be fair, making Chrom part of it would heavily change her playstyle, and not just being an "update". The issue isn't the amount of characters(and the Wii U could handle it, it was the 3DS that couldn't), it's that Lucina plays as a single character. Transformations can be removed without heavily changing the character's options too much. It simply removes the original gimmick at best, but what's notable is the transformation characters(all of them) are notable characters for their own merits. While Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't come back, it's more just a case of Sakurai trying to make the cast amount a bit more balanced. He doesn't want to oversaturate any series. Pokemon would have 8 characters if no cuts happened from Brawl, which is a lot, actually. 6 isn't a bad number, and keep in mind if no cuts happened, they'd top the entire charts with 9.


This is false. A lot is lost. Impa's entirely potential is completely removed by making her a lame face(when she can do more), and Sheik, who is the face of the moveset, is just thrown into a silly costume role. Impa also has way more options than just being Sheik again, so she'd be better off as a fully unique character or at worst a clone/semi-clone. Before SS, she wasn't really separated from Sheik's moveset capabilities much at all. At best they could give her a moveset based upon his actual design in the Oracle series, which would be more of a heavyset character. Has lots of potential, really. But there's no moves she had or easy ideas possible in her elderly woman design.


From what I remember, he did intend that in 64. It didn't happen. Pichu is the only proper joke character made at any time.

Sorry for the late response. I'd totally love for Impa to be more than that. That'd be ideal (for me, at least). I guess I just meant if that didn't happen.
Also, the point was to vastly change Lucina's playstyle while not scrapping all the effort put towards polishing her model and animating it for all of her moves, yea.

Edit: What if all of the characters they separated were just temporary during hardware limitations? (like Zelda and Shiek)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sorry for the late response. I'd totally love for Impa to be more than that. That'd be ideal (for me, at least). I guess I just meant if that didn't happen.
Also, the point was to vastly change Lucina's playstyle while not scrapping all the effort put towards polishing her model and animating it for all of her moves, yea.

Edit: What if all of the characters they separated were just temporary during hardware limitations? (like Zelda and Shiek)

Actually, the hardware limitations were part of the reason for the separation. However, it was also something they agreed was a good idea for balance purposes. Transformation characters are awful overall due to how they are weaker than they could be, or the balance idea doesn't work out. Zelda is clearly better with kill options but can't stand on her own two feet due to be horribly weak otherwise. Sheik meanwhile isn't strong at finishing blows, but is fast enough where that doesn't always matter. She was God Tier in Melee for a while even, till the metagame evolved and she was dethroned(note that she wasn't on Meta Knight levels in Brawl even then). By separating them, you remove the need for this kind of "balance around each other", and let them get buffs easily. The fact Zelda barely got anything is pretty much on the developers, though. Pokemon Trainer is another good example of how poorly the gimmick was thought out. While the 3 were not actually that bad on their own, even without having Down B's, the fact that they constantly lost stamina and gained lag was the real issue. This was to encourage playing the other Pokemon. But in addition to that, you were force switched into the next one in the trio every time you died(bar SSE if you only have Squirtle).

Zero Suit Samus and Samus suffered surprisingly the least, but only because Final Smashes weren't used as much in the metagame. ZSS can't use a Smash Ball without forcing the player to use the button combo to return to ZSS from regular Samus. That, and using the Smash Ball auto-switched you, so you had to main 2 characters at once, which were both a pain to switch out. Zelda/Sheik and Pokemon Trainer didn't suffer nearly as much on this particular front, as you could practice both or all three at once. It doesn't change the balance issues, but it also at least is something you can do to play well.

And yeah, Impa is extremely unique as an option at this point. Only issue she has at best is no recurring design to clearly go off of.

 

[Megadoomer]

I didn't even say a thing about Impa. I was purely speaking that Zelda / Sheik was as badly balanced as a "unique mechanic project character" just like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer. Yet, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Ice Climbers are gone, but Sheik isn't.

Zelda's bad cause she's supposed to be slow and has nothing working for her and no combos or moves that easily hit or come out fast or without lag, Sheik is the exact opposite; fast, combo-heavy and almost no lag. It's VERY EASY to see to anyone who isn't blindsighted by a "veterans are holy"-mentality. Which is all which is happening here.

'DON'T TOUCH SHEIK, I LIKE HER!'
'SHE'S A MELEE-VETERAN!'
'THE ZELDA/ SHEIK MECHANIC WAS COOL SO SHE STAYS!'
'SHEIK IS A VETERAN, BEGONE AGENT OF SATAN!!'



See this damn post again, where I began this whole fiasco:



Now stop putting words in my mouth and see things factual for a damn change.

Thanks to you guys, the Zelda roster is gonna remain the same old boring 2 Links, 2 Zelda's where one is just a dress up plot twist in ONE game, and Captain Falcon but old and fat. All because you cannot picture a different situation at all, EXCEPT for adding ANOTHER DAMN LINK with Robin's weapon durability gimmick.

Good job at that!

Smash community, am proud of you guys.

I'm going to need you to calm down a bit, or at least not generalize so much. People don't automatically consider every veteran, or even every Melee veteran, to be uncuttable (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) - there isn't exactly a lot of outcry for Pichu to return.

However, Sheik is incredibly popular among the Smash community, particularly the competitive side, and the developers seem to see that, seeing as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus were turned into full characters when Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't make the cut. Sheik's almost like Captain Falcon at this point - while they aren't major characters in their own rights any more, they're still incredibly popular among the Smash fanbase, and are practically mainstays of the franchise as a result.

There are plenty of options for new Zelda characters - it's honestly baffling to me that they haven't added any new Zelda characters to Smash since 2001, but between Hyrule Warriors and Breath of the Wild, I can't see them not adding one this time around. Hopefully it's not just Breath of the Wild Link (while the moveset could be creative, the character choice would be incredibly lazy); even if they can't use the new characters created for Hyrule Warriors (like Lana, Linkle, Cia, etc. - not sure if it's another Geno situation, where Koei-Tecmo owns those characters), there's still Impa, Midna, or combining elements of Ruto or Darunia with the Breath of the Wild Champions, among many, many, many others.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm going to need you to calm down a bit, or at least not generalize so much. People don't automatically consider every veteran, or even every Melee veteran, to be uncuttable (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) - there isn't exactly a lot of outcry for Pichu to return. However, Sheik is incredibly popular among the Smash community, particularly the competitive side, and the developers seem to see that, seeing as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus were turned into full characters when Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't make the cut. Sheik's almost like Captain Falcon at this point - while they aren't major characters in their own rights any more, they're still incredibly popular among the Smash fanbase, and are practically mainstays of the franchise as a result.

There are plenty of options for new Zelda characters - it's honestly baffling to me that they haven't added any new Zelda characters to Smash since 2001, but between Hyrule Warriors and Breath of the Wild, I can't see them not adding one this time around. Hopefully it's not just Breath of the Wild Link (while the moveset could be creative, the character choice would be incredibly lazy); even if they can't use the new characters created for Hyrule Warriors (like Lana, Linkle, Cia, etc. - not sure if it's another Geno situation, where Koei-Tecmo owns those characters), there's still Impa, Midna, or combining elements of Ruto or Darunia with the Breath of the Wild Champions, among many, many, many others.

Okay I can accept this. And never said that it would be a LIKELY occurence at all, Sheik being cut. But I do think she's the least likely to stay out of all the 5 Zelda characters we currently have. Appearantly, this is a crime and especially when you point out why, and why there's issues with character balance because of Zelda / Sheik being part of "one moveset" innitially.

Impa still has my vote for a new character. And I don't think she should rival Sheik for her moveset, even though it makes a lot of sense for them to be similar. Impa has lots more to work with, always had. Let Sheik keep the moveset for herself. They could base Impa on the Sheikah Slate magic, lots of stuff works for a basic moveset, hence the outrcy for the terrible bland "BOTW Link" idea. Add a weapon of choice if they must, and there's a great basic moveset.

Sheik and Impa could also be semi-clones, and with Impa's potential overall, it'd work beautifully even. Impa can also be based on Hyrule Warriors, and it could serve a great inspirtation for new moves for Ganondorf, Zelda and even Toon Link. Hell, even YOUNG Link would be dope in his HW-incarnation.

Ganondorf is just a hopeless mess at this point, and if it where to me, I'd kick him out for classic Ganon. Why? Because he's the actual villain, has more and recent appearances, and I would take a giant spear bearing boar over fat old Captain Falcon. That's why. In a ideal world, I'd revamp the Ganondorf moveset. But we all know that's never gonna happen anyway.

All things conisdered, I wish they'd base the Zelda cast on Hyrule Warriors, and add Impa as a newcomer. I just want SOME to change in the Zelda roster, Zelda needs buffs, Ganondorf needs everything, Sheik needs nerfs, and the whole franchise needs a actual newcomer- in which I personally GREATLY favor Impa.

 

[Cosmic77]

There is no way his specials are completely changing to any severe degree. They're key staples.

You misread my post. I never said Link's specials would be changed. I was only referring to updating the LoZ designs. Frankly, doing anything major to Link's moveset now would just seem weird and out of place.

They can keep slowly updating their designs to incorporate bits and pieces till Ganondorf and Sheik get new art or concept art. It's a consistency thing that the series follows. Child Link has his own version, and the other 4 were always the same design type. Remember that Sheik only came back in Brawl because she had TP concept art. The chances of her being cut was at that point, although obviously now she's forever in(bar a reboot game).

We don't even know how much effort has been put into maintaining this consistency. Every Zelda character in Melee was present in OoT. Not having them share the same design is redundant and would be unneeded extra work. Smash 4 could've updated Link and Zelda to match their SS appearance, but because that game didn't do nearly as well as TP and because both Ganondorf and Sheik didn't have new designs, I can understand why they stuck with the old ones. Brawl was the only game where consistency was an issue. They wanted to update the LoZ cast to match their TP designs, but Sheik didn't make in appearance in that game. How did they handle it? They took Sheik's concept art from TP and essentially copied every aspect of it. If anything, that's actually easier than trying to update her Melee appearance.

Point is, even though things have worked out in a way that consistency has been kept, there was never really much effort in it to begin with. BotW did great, and if Sakurai wants to update the cast, I say go for it. The Zelda franchise won't be permanently tarnished if BotW Zelda meets TP Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

Quite hypocritial of you cause Zelda gets a major release far more often than Donkey Kong Country, and unlike DKC, the Zelda franchise never was on a hiatus nor lost their whole development team by a buy out. They are simply not comparable to each other. And even IF, Dixie Kong still has full relevancy because of Tropical Freeze.

Please define hiatus. Since the DK's sub-series inception, the franchise has never gone five years without a new title. Just because the titles between DK64 (and I'd argue that) and DKCR weren't A+ efforts didn't mean that DK was on hiatus.

The 5 Zelda choices right now are bad choices cause they all came from one giant batch of Zelda newcomers in Melee, and they didn't adjust them ever since. Only gave Ganondorf like 2 new moves every since, which still don't really fit his persona, and split up Zelda and Sheik because after Melee, it never made sense anyway.

But they have adjusted Zelda characters since Melee. Young Link got replaced by Toon Link who while sharing mostly the same moves as Link, plays much differently. Splitting up Zelda and Sheik alone is a big change because it means they are no longer dependent on each other. As you said, Ganondorf has also received a few moves. They are not bad choices so much as Zelda and Ganondorf need buffs.

All major franchises had cuts in the past, Mario lost Dr.Mario, but alas he came back, same with Fire Emblem and Roy. Pokemon legitimately lost Pichu, Squirtle and Ivysaur, who are still iconic and popular in their own right, and even Mewtwo was lost during Brawl.

If the Zelda franchise is FINALLY getting a legit newcomer in 15 years, or maybe even more than one newcomer as the same thing happened with Mario during Smash 4, I expect that the new faces will have priority over the old. And as you said yourself, Sheik would be the last priority due to her lack of overall relevance to the franchise.

Zelda does not work the same way as Pokémon and Fire Emblem. Zelda already has its most important characters whereas Pokémon introduces tons of monsters every generation and Fire Emblem has a revolving cast. Considering that Sheik played a major role in the most important Zelda game and stayed despite Brawl being the perfect opportunity to axe her, she isn't going anywhere. Even if we get a new Zelda character (and this is a big if), they will come after all the veterans (except maybe Toon Link if Sakurai doesn't return to direct).

I also never said anything about Sheik being last priority or unimportant. If anything, I think Toon Link would go before Sheik.

But apperantly we're in the same looping circle again where a "veterans are HOLY DON'T TOUCH"-mentality excists. Happens once every 10-20 pages so yeah ...

Sheik IS the most logical choice to axe from The Legend of Zelda franchise out of all the Zelda characters on the roster. At the same time, Impa is the most logical choice to include. Doesn't mean that Sheik will be axed for Impa, they can easily co-exist. But if say, another Zelda newcomer makes it in, like a Champion as Daruk or Urbosa, I expect no Sheik, or she'll be DLC.

Not everyone believes all veterans should be in just because. I certainly don't but I will defend inclusions that aren't subpar and Sheik most certainly isn't subpar. Also saying Sheik is the most logical axing choice doesn't make it a good move. More like removing her smells like five pounds of fecal matter rather than ten for Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf.

I'm going to need you to calm down a bit, or at least not generalize so much. People don't automatically consider every veteran, or even every Melee veteran, to be uncuttable (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) - there isn't exactly a lot of outcry for Pichu to return. However, Sheik is incredibly popular among the Smash community, particularly the competitive side, and the developers seem to see that, seeing as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus were turned into full characters when Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't make the cut. Sheik's almost like Captain Falcon at this point - while they aren't major characters in their own rights any more, they're still incredibly popular among the Smash fanbase, and are practically mainstays of the franchise as a result.

There are plenty of options for new Zelda characters - it's honestly baffling to me that they haven't added any new Zelda characters to Smash since 2001, but between Hyrule Warriors and Breath of the Wild, I can't see them not adding one this time around. Hopefully it's not just Breath of the Wild Link (while the moveset could be creative, the character choice would be incredibly lazy); even if they can't use the new characters created for Hyrule Warriors (like Lana, Linkle, Cia, etc. - not sure if it's another Geno situation, where Koei-Tecmo owns those characters), there's still Impa, Midna, or combining elements of Ruto or Darunia with the Breath of the Wild Champions, among many, many, many others.

I wouldn't be so confident on a new Zelda character.

Zelda hardly needs a new character and there is no one near the same league in importance as the ones we have. It doesn't need an addition just because "It's Zelda's turn!" Besides, a Pokémon newcomer, a Fire Emblem newcomer or two, new IPs, third-parties, and 50+ veterans are going to take priority over a Zelda newcomer. It could happen with Breath of the Wild if the Champions are playable material (haven't played it btw) but that's only because of Breath of the Wild's sales and universal acclaim.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I think the January Direct will at least be announced in less than a week from today. Nintendo typically likes to announce the directs a day or two before they happen and I'm betting on the Direct taking place between the 10th and the 20th.

 

[Cosmic77]

Zelda does not work the same way as Pokémon and Fire Emblem. Zelda already has its most important characters whereas Pokémon introduces tons of monsters every generation and Fire Emblem has a revolving cast.

I wouldn't be so confident on a new Zelda character.

Zelda hardly needs a new character and there is no one near the same league in importance as the ones we have. It's doesn't need an addition just because "It's Zelda's turn!" Besides, a Pokémon newcomer, a Fire Emblem newcomer or two, new IPs, third-parties, and 50+ veterans are going to take priority over a Zelda newcomer. It could happen with Breath of the Wild if the Champions are playable material (haven't played it btw) but that's only because of Breath of the Wild's sales and universal acclaim.

Keep in mind that if we only included the "most important characters" from every franchise, Super Mario would have probably stopped after the inclusion of Peach and Bowser in Melee. Say goodbye to Junior and Rosa.

In a way, the Zelda series is no different than Fire Emblem. Both the franchises' games always take place in a different setting with a new cast of characters. The only difference is that the Zelda series usually reuses the same three main characters for their games. Because of this, I feel like we've created the false assumption that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the ONLY characters from the Zelda series that we need or make sense. Obviously characters like Midna, Girahim, and Revali are not likely to appear in another game, but is that really a good enough reason to rob ourselves of a potentially great fighter from the third most popular Nintendo franchise? Zelda will never have as many options as readily available as Pokémon or Fire Emblem, so if Sakurai can come up with a decent idea for a Zelda character, I'll take it. Besides, we haven't gotten a unique Zelda character since Melee. I'm dying over here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You misread my post. I never said Link's specials would be changed. I was only referring to updating the LoZ designs. Frankly, doing anything major to Link's moveset now would just seem weird and out of place.

Whoops my bad.

We don't even know how much effort has been put into maintaining this consistency. Every Zelda character in Melee was present in OoT. Not having them share the same design is redundant and would be unneeded extra work. Smash 4 could've updated Link and Zelda to match their SS appearance, but because that game didn't do nearly as well as TP and because both Ganondorf and Sheik didn't have new designs, I can understand why they stuck with the old ones. Brawl was the only game where consistency was an issue. They wanted to update the LoZ cast to match their TP designs, but Sheik didn't make in appearance in that game. How did they handle it? They took Sheik's concept art from TP and essentially copied every aspect of it. If anything, that's actually easier than trying to update her Melee appearance.

Enough to keep them consistent in 4. I think our only chance for a full design overhaul for those 4 is either a HW redesign(although yeah, the issues is that it would feel wrong with Ganondorf, unless they actually let him use both swords in a few moves. That version of him even uses some Smash moves, so it works out). That said, I think if they did that, Zelda should incorporate her rapier too.

Point is, even though things have worked out in a way that consistency has been kept, there was never really much effort in it to begin with. BotW did great, and if Sakurai wants to update the cast, I say go for it. The Zelda franchise won't be permanently tarnished if BotW Zelda meets TP Ganondorf.

It's clear a lot of effort was put in. They updated all 5 at once to their latest GameCube appearances, with only one being a lucky shot(TP Sheik), and has kept this since then, waiting for a new canon game to update all 4 of the adult character designs. There's not much point to making them all look inconsistent. Keep in mind that the last game to have all 4 in was a spin-off. It's not a coincidence he only updated them to have bits and pieces from OOT and SS, while keeping their core TP designs. And it does matter a lot. Ganondorf himself is underused, and you can't just switch out half the characters for complete changes without raising a lot of eyebrows. Also keep in mind that the redesign also came with moveset updates. It all goes hand in hand. It is possible that Ganondorf and Sheik had concept art for BOTW, though, so updating all 4 to it is not impossible entirely. They have a full Sheikah costume in BOTW, so... it's easy to do. Ganondorf is the only one that requires a ton of effort. It's far easier to just not overdo it or do so if they solely have the assets for a full overhaul in the physical designs for all 4. You don't just stop being inconsistent for the sake of "lolnewcontent". Do keep in mind they keep doing this for other series. Fire Emblem got updates to try and keep characters as close as possible to their newest appearances, with vast changes(as best as they can do so), but being the series has rotated characters to a degree, it's less important than making sure the core cast is kept the same design style. Metroid followed this same thing, only changing both to match Other M since both characters were in.

Remember, change for the sake of change is not good. There's literally no reason to remove the TP design when it works well for all 4, unless you have the assets to change all 4. I must reiterate that all these redesigns have come with new moves, so that's extremely important to doing so. Ganondorf has literally nothing to go off of for a new canon appearance, so he's near impossible to update. And obviously we know Sakurai wants him to stay a clone, slowly differentiating him. Even Luigi is still a partial clone to Mario, after all.

 

[Phil Time]

The only way a Smash game could be announced in the next few months is if Sakurai is NOT working on it, be it a port or a whole new game.

I mean, we can still speculate, but I'd be surprised if a new Smash is announced this year.

It seems like you have given a lot of thought to Masahiro Sakurai NOT being a part of a title in the Super Smash Bros. series. I know that I have.

In a lot of ways, I think that such a theoretical video game would be better for the series. Personally, I want Super Smash Bros. to be as competitive as possible.

I don't think that my idea will ever happen as long as Sakurai is connected to Super Smash Bros. in any way, shape, or form.

Speculation is wonderful (obviously). I just don't think that everyone should be killing themselves with anticipation like it seems a few individuals in this thread are.

 

[Cosmic77]

Enough to keep them consistent in 4. I think our only chance for a full design overhaul for those 4 is either a HW redesign(although yeah, the issues is that it would feel wrong with Ganondorf, unless they actually let him use both swords in a few moves. That version of him even uses some Smash moves, so it works out). That said, I think if they did that, Zelda should incorporate her rapier too.


It's clear a lot of effort was put in. They updated all 5 at once to their latest GameCube appearances, with only one being a lucky shot(TP Sheik), and has kept this since then, waiting for a new canon game to update all 4 of the adult character designs. There's not much point to making them all look inconsistent. Keep in mind that the last game to have all 4 in was a spin-off. It's not a coincidence he only updated them to have bits and pieces from OOT and SS, while keeping their core TP designs. And it does matter a lot. Ganondorf himself is underused, and you can't just switch out half the characters for complete changes without raising a lot of eyebrows. Also keep in mind that the redesign also came with moveset updates. It all goes hand in hand. It is possible that Ganondorf and Sheik had concept art for BOTW, though, so updating all 4 to it is not impossible entirely. They have a full Sheikah costume in BOTW, so... it's easy to do. Ganondorf is the only one that requires a ton of effort. It's far easier to just not overdo it or do so if they solely have the assets for a full overhaul in the physical designs for all 4. You don't just stop being inconsistent for the sake of "lolnewcontent". Do keep in mind they keep doing this for other series. Fire Emblem got updates to try and keep characters as close as possible to their newest appearances, with vast changes(as best as they can do so), but being the series has rotated characters to a degree, it's less important than making sure the core cast is kept the same design style. Metroid followed this same thing, only changing both to match Other M since both characters were in.

Remember, change for the sake of change is not good. There's literally no reason to remove the TP design when it works well for all 4, unless you have the assets to change all 4. I must reiterate that all these redesigns have come with new moves, so that's extremely important to doing so. Ganondorf has literally nothing to go off of for a new canon appearance, so he's near impossible to update. And obviously we know Sakurai wants him to stay a clone, slowly differentiating him. Even Luigi is still a partial clone to Mario, after all.

I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see why updating their appearance without touching their moveset is a bad thing. TP is over decade old now, and any kids who played that game are probably in their late teens by now. Lots of people were introduced to the Zelda series through BotW, and older fans regard it as one of the best titles in the series. Wouldn't it be wise to try and update the LoZ cast so they resemble their newest versions, AKA the versions that the most people would be familiar with? That seems like a good enough reason to change them to me. Sakurai doesn't have to give Link a fancy Sheikah sword or have Ganondorf summon a corrupted Gaurdian just to complement their BotW designs. Just give 'em a visual makeover and leave the rest alone.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see why updating their appearance without touching their moveset is a bad thing. TP is over decade old now, and any kids who played that game are probably in their late teens by now. Lots of people were introduced to the Zelda series through BotW, so wouldn't it be wise to try and update the LoZ cast so they resemble their newest versions, AKA the versions that the most people would be familiar with? That seems like a good enough reason to change them to me. Sakurai doesn't have to give Link a fancy Sheikah sword or have Ganondorf summon a corrupted Gaurdian just to complement their BotW designs. Just give 'em a visual makeover and leave the rest alone.

It's not a decade old when it got an HD updated rerelease. It's actually recent again. So it's recognizable in itself. That alone makes it likely it'll stay.

Even then, you can't just add random stuff either. By update, I mean updating all of them to match the BOTW assets, with potentially redesigns of their moves(like there's an actual Boomerang weapon in BOTW, so use that) with maybe a new move or two(like a new grab for Link, if one of the Sheikah Slate abilities could make it worthwhile), but not removing the key moves. I just don't see any way to update Ganondorf, while the others could easily be. It's about keeping the consistency, which is important that the series you have are kept consistent in the way you update them. Some don't matter in that same regard, but Zelda is very clearly kept a specific way. Only other idea I think is plausible is making all 4 characters completely different designs to change it up(OOT Sheik, HW Ganondorf, TP Zelda, and BOTW Link seems the right combination? As long as it doesn't severely give a new moveset).

That said, I would be okay with a version of Ganon that took moves from the various Blight versions while being basically the giant Beast Ganon form(but made more bipedal). It seems like the first game where they have enough assets to make a super unique version of Ganon that isn't just there to "lolfinallygetaweapon".

 

[Luminario]

Only other idea I think is plausible is making all 4 characters completely different designs to change it up(OOT Sheik, HW Ganondorf, TP Zelda, and BOTW Link seems the right combination? As long as it doesn't severely give a new moveset).

This isn't a bad idea at all, though I'd say give Zelda her SS look and give Ganondorf his TP look, so all the Zelda characters have an appearance from a canon game.

There's not much else that truly needs to change to add the BotW designs in. Link's Boomerang would get a small mechanical change and the Hookshot could be redesigned with a Guardian weapon flair so that it glows blue or something so that it fits with the redesign, Zelda's regular attacks could look more light magic-based with maybe a new down B (plus maybe a taunt or new up smash to reference her awakening scene), Sheik's design could be brought straight from the Stealth gear and her up and side B moves get a blue Sheikah Slate effect, and Ganondorf's look could either be Phantom Ganon based, Desert Voe based, or a new design potentially from concept art, and his attack effects could look more Calamity Ganon-based which doesn't look that different from his dark magic now. It all works fine while mostly keeping the same movesets. TP is old news now and BotW is critically acclaimed, it's time for new outfits.

Honestly, I just skipped through the ARMS, third party discussion and made it through the past 3 pages at a fast rate.

The posts I read that refers to Decidueye as the only shoe in gen 7 Pokémon are complete ******** Many explained posts I read for it to be selected are just reasons the fans give it, I swear. Some of these discussions are some of the most frustrating reads.

To be fair, this site's demographic isn't exactly who you would expect to stan for Mimikyu over Decidueye.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Please define hiatus. Since the DK's sub-series inception, the franchise has never gone five years without a new title. Just because the titles between DK64 (and I'd argue that) and DKCR weren't A+ efforts didn't mean that DK was on hiatus.

There was a massive future planned for the Donkey Kong franchise under Rare. They had to do a lot of readjustments and filler titles as Donkey Konga, but the PAON titles where pretty damn great. They used all the DKC characters Rare created, albeit more cartoony. But it worked to keep all the characters "relevant". Not even Diddy Kong got a lot of love from Nintendo by keeping him out of Jungle Beat for example, on purpose. You say that's not a sort of hiatus?

Zelda has had the stable character cast of Link and Zelda in every game. Ganon is also almost always there, then there's a few staples as Impa, but outside of that Zelda relies on one-off characters who make a lot of impact in one game for story purposes. Like Midna, Ghirahim, Fi and the Champions of BOTW.

They aren't really comparable, but Donkey Kong Country has had it worse. Still a wonder how it's a Top 5 franchise of Nintendo. Which means a big quality check for each major release. I specifically said Donkey Kong Country, cause THOSE games are the main titles of the overal series of DK games. Zelda has spin-offs like Tingle's Rosyland and Link's Crossbow Training, but got a major release each console game. DKC missed out majorly on the GameCube. Same as Metroid missed out on N64. Both would be considered a hiatus.

But they have adjusted Zelda characters since Melee. Young Link got replaced by Toon Link who while sharing mostly the same moves as Link, plays much differently. Splitting up Zelda and Sheik alone is a big change because it means they are no longer dependent on each other. As you said, Ganondorf has also received a few moves. They are not bad choices so much as Zelda and Ganondorf need buffs.

Zelda and Ganondorf are just badly designed. You cannot get bottom tier twice without major issues in character design. Take Bowser for example. He was terrible in Melee and Brawl, got moveset changes in Smash 4, even that didn't fix him innitially, and now he's High Tier through buffs. I'd like such a approach. However, Sheik and Zero Suit Samus got them instead... Why? They already had great moveset based on purely creative liberty. I get the changes done to Pit for example, he had a next major release. But Sheik and Zero Suit Samus should be seen as 'lucky additions' in a way. Zelda and Ganondorf needed them more. Brawl Sheik wasn't good, but Melee Sheik was- same exact situation for Mario and Captain Falcon. ZSS is better understood cause she had tether moves for Side and Up B.

Besides, Zelda and Sheik where able to be selected seperately since Brawl. They just shared a slot and where interchangeable through Down B.

Zelda does not work the same way as Pokémon and Fire Emblem. Zelda already has its most important characters whereas Pokémon introduces tons of monsters every generation and Fire Emblem has a revolving cast. Considering that Sheik played a major role in the most important Zelda game and stayed despite Brawl being the perfect opportunity to axe her, she isn't going anywhere. Even if we get a new Zelda character (and this is a big if), they will come after all the veterans (except maybe Toon Link if Sakurai doesn't return to direct).

I also never said anything about Sheik being last priority or unimportant. If anything, I think Toon Link would go before Sheik.Not everyone believes all veterans should be in just because. I certainly don't but I will defend inclusions that aren't subpar and Sheik most certainly isn't subpar. Also saying Sheik is the most logical axing choice doesn't make it a good move. More like removing her smells like five pounds of fecal matter rather than ten for Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf.

Doubt Toon Link would be axed first. He's the protagonist of a sub franchise in Zelda. He's important alright. His face is of a whole time line basically. Toon Link is staying, Sakurai stated before he's more like the 'real Link' and adult Link is just the modern face of Link.

OOT isn't the "most important" Zelda game, but yeah, it's universally agreed to be one of the best games. But guess what, so is the whole of SNES's DKC. So K.Rool deserves his entry by your same logic. Since you said the series are comparable anyway.

I wouldn't be so confident on a new Zelda character.

Zelda hardly needs a new character and there is no one near the same league in importance as the ones we have. It doesn't need an addition just because "It's Zelda's turn!" Besides, a Pokémon newcomer, a Fire Emblem newcomer or two, new IPs, third-parties, and 50+ veterans are going to take priority over a Zelda newcomer. It could happen with Breath of the Wild if the Champions are playable material (haven't played it btw) but that's only because of Breath of the Wild's sales and universal acclaim.

You said yourself, BOTW's sales and universal acclaim. That's a good reason for a new character. And Impa could be just that through using the Sheikah Slate's magic.

 

[Lukingordex]

Does the design of all zelda characters really needs to be from the same game?
Would it be impossible for all zelda characters to come in smash 5 with their BoTW appearance except Ganondorf which could stay with his TP look?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Does the design of all zelda characters really needs to be from the same game?
Would it be impossible for all zelda characters to come in smash 5 with their BoTW appearance except Ganondorf which could stay with his TP look?

Sheik doesn't have a BOTW design specifically. They at best would have to remodel her to fit Link's Sheik costume.

I do think it's bad to not keep consistency, because it makes them look all out of place. It overall looks unprofessional and just is change for the sake of it. The update isn't needed in itself because it doesn't really help the characters at all. Making one character stand out like a sore thumb is a bad thing in itself too. Why even bother doing that? What does it accomplish? Design consistency makes a product look much nicer.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Sheik doesn't have a BOTW design specifically. They at best would have to remodel her to fit Link's Sheik costume.

I do think it's bad to not keep consistency, because it makes them look all out of place. It overall looks unprofessional and just is change for the sake of it. The update isn't needed in itself because it doesn't really help the characters at all. Making one character stand out like a sore thumb is a bad thing in itself too. Why even bother doing that? What does it accomplish? Design consistency makes a product look much nicer.

By this reasoning we shouldn't get any new Xenoblade character because of how different the style is from each game.

By looking at the Stealth Armour, you can't tell me that it looks like Sheik just by accident. It was a clear inspiration.

I would also say that the changes between the TP designs and the BotW ones wouldn't "stand out as a sore thumb" because they are similar. Especially after how Smash Wii U gave more colors to those characters. Even Ganondorf looks a lot more cartoony in Smash that he ever did in TP. Even Toon Link is in a completely different artstyle, yet he mashes well with the rest of the Zelda characters because the artist who work on Smash are capable of doing this, and if they can achieve that with the Toon style, I don't see why they can't with updating all the characters except Ganondorf (who I still believe will get an original outfit based on Calamity Ganon, just like how Roy got an original look in Smash 4).

About the whole "change aesthetics when changing movesets" which changes did Samus got in Smash 4 for having her Other M design? Or Pikachu by loosing his fat appereance?

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

I highly doubt any Zelda characters will be removed, because it is a very popular series and it has five. I know Sheik is not relevant to the Zelda games, but Sheik has kind of been a staple Smash character. I really doubt Sheik is going to be replaced or removed.

Interesting and nice list. I could think of a moveset for everyone, but King K Rool's is interesting. What would his moveset be?

K.Rool has a ton of options for his moveset.

I'd give this opening post a read:

https://smashboards.com/threads/k-rools-kremling-kutthroats-the-end-for-smash.421769/

It goes into great detail(with TLDR versions if you wish) with potential moves that K. Rool can potentially have in his arsenal.

 

[Deleted member]

Konban wa. Hope it's cool to show y'all my ideal roster for the speculative Smash here since I do believe it will get more exposure here especially since I can only post once in the roster thread.



I decided to do the 30-character-roster approach in a similar fashion as to how there were many character cuts going into Tekken 4. The original twelve are here to stay apparently, as well as at least three newcomers each from Melee, Brawl, and 4. Yes, I chose to put on my roster because I would be goddamned if she did not show up. But I should not be since she's easy to license, the same as , right? My newcomers I predict are Viridi, Ashley, and Toon Zelda, the latter of whom I say is a good change of pace from having a clone Link.

Smash 4 does have 58 characters (66 if one counts the Koopalings and Alph) that are a blast to play, but I can't imagine seeing the speculative Smash have more characters than Tekken Tag Tournament 2. So please don't be too hard on me, a 56-year-old woman, for omitting a lot of the cast. Sate...tell Grandma Shizuka your thoughts about my roster.

Sayonara

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

By this reasoning we shouldn't get any new Xenoblade character because of how different the style is from each game.

By looking at the Stealth Armour, you can't tell me that it looks like Sheik just by accident. It was a clear inspiration.

I would also say that the changes between the TP designs and the BotW ones wouldn't "stand out as a sore thumb" because they are similar. Especially after how Smash Wii U gave more colors to those characters. Even Ganondorf looks a lot more cartoony in Smash that he ever did in TP. Even Toon Link is in a completely different artstyle, yet he mashes well with the rest of the Zelda characters because the artist who work on Smash are capable of doing this, and if they can achieve that with the Toon style, I don't see why they can't with updating all the characters except Ganondorf (who I still believe will get an original outfit based on Calamity Ganon, just like how Roy got an original look in Smash 4).

About the whole "change aesthetics when changing movesets" which changes did Samus got in Smash 4 for having her Other M design? Or Pikachu by loosing his fat appereance?

That's a bad comparison. These are a set of recurring characters(never mind iconic ones). 4 characters who have kept the same artstyle since their debut, or all updated at once. Toon Link almost sticks out, if he didn't have a pure niche and wasn't basically just a clone(and wasn't the exact same kind of update, all 5 being brought to their unique GameCube designs, all of which also fit their moveset best. Toon Ganondorf is vastly different from TP Ganondorf, to say the least). Ganondorf is too important to be left out just literally for the sake of it. He's the franchise's key villain. He's important too(and also why they don't de-clone him as to keep previous players happy, making it easy to adjust to his changes).

The Pokemon all got updated to match their latest designs, but also kept certain Smash elements. Both Metroid characters got updated, not 1. Just adding a new character in a franchise doesn't mean much. When you update a franchise full of characters, consistency helps making them look more presentable. It also helps that their playstyles are adapted based upon the actual design. Toon Link is vastly different from Young Link despite both being the same kind of clone, due to things like the stubby legs, and has many different moves. Link did get an update, but it didn't change his core that much. Ganondorf actually plays more differently due to the extreme loss of speed, but still kept the focus on what he was, a brutal character.

It's not as simple as a complete aesthetic update. You have to make sure it still works well for their moveset. With no way to update Ganondorf(which means he sticks out even worse than Toon Link does), you just leave a really weird looking set of characters, who are blatantly tied to each other design-wise.

You can easily update or ignore Shulk when adding a new character. Nothing changes. If you update the Mario designs, you're left with some who have no way to be updated, so you need to make up some designs for their artstyle. So if they can put together a proper Ganondorf and Sheik BOTW style, that'd be great. Otherwise, TP all over again is honestly realistic.

Konban wa. Grandma Shizuka, here. Hope it's cool to show y'all my ideal roster for the speculative Smash here since I do believe it will get more exposure here.



I decided to do the 30-character-roster approach in a similar fashion as to how there were many character cuts going into Tekken 4. The original twelve are here to stay apparently, as well as at least three newcomers each from Melee, Brawl, and 4. Yes, I chose to put on my roster because I would be goddamned if she did not show up. But I should not be since she's easy to license, the same as , right? My newcomers I predict are Viridi, Ashley, and Toon Zelda, the latter of whom I say is a good change of pace from having a clone Link.

Smash 4 does have 58 characters (66 if one counts the Koopalings and Alph) that are a blast to play, but I can't imagine seeing the speculative Smash have more characters than Tekken Tag Tournament 2. So please don't be too hard on me, a 56-year-old woman, for omitting a lot of the cast.

Sayonara

Well, it's easier to post it in the Roster thread, but you already took care of that~

I will say I don't expect that large of cuts. But otherwise, seems solid. However, KI getting 3 seems a bit silly with Kirby having less than 2/3. Viridi is neat, but she shouldn't be in there while other franchises are super low. IMO, Kirby should have his core 3. I can get why you cut Falco, as he's not as important when you are making a tiny roster. That said, serious issues with your Zelda cast. Ganondorf absolutely needs to be in. Toon Zelda isn't that important in comparison, and even less important than Toon Link. Sheik is an understandable cut in this case, because Ganondorf absolutely should be there(or Ganon if needed). Likewise, Bowser needs to be there too. If you're going this low, Rosalina's a more understandable cut. The core cast should be there before the newer(albeit important in their own right) characters. Is Jigglypuff really necessary in this case? Why not put Lucario, Mewtwo, or Greninja there? I don't think Viridi or Toon Zelda has a big chance at this point. Uprising is already done, and there's no hint of a KI game coming that's new. Toon Zelda pretty much has only one workable gimmick, and Zelda already has that with her Phantom Armor move. Besides, Toon Link is vastly more important(as I said before) and has no business being cut.

Overall, I'd suggest making it bigger and adding the core cast back(and the original 12 being there, of course). Being Toon Link, Ganondorf, Bowser, Falco, King Dedede, Meta Knight, and there's little reason to cut both Capcom options(MegaMan is a bit more important, as he's a bigger icon than Ryu, although not by a severe amount). Pac-Man should stay. As for Pokemon, at least add back Lucario and Mewtwo/Greninja. They should have at least 3-4 characters even on a smaller roster. That said, if you don't return MegaMan or Pac-Man, Duck Hunt should be there for your 40th character.

...Wait, no Fire Emblem characters? Uh, no. It's too important. I can understand not many for obvious reasns, but Marth has to be there. Whether 2 is necessary is hard to say, but Ike or Robin would be good second choices for diversity/importance.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

There was a massive future planned for the Donkey Kong franchise under Rare. They had to do a lot of readjustments and filler titles as Donkey Konga, but the PAON titles where pretty damn great. They used all the DKC characters Rare created, albeit more cartoony. But it worked to keep all the characters "relevant". Not even Diddy Kong got a lot of love from Nintendo by keeping him out of Jungle Beat for example, on purpose. You say that's not a sort of hiatus?

For the record, if Rare hadn't gotten purchased out of Nintendo's grasp you may have never gotten Diddy in Smash Bros. Considering how even with Double Dash they were more comfortable with using DK Jr. Because of licensing issues. I do agree with you on this though. Donkey Kong had quite the Dark Age a la Metroid after Rare got bought out with the characters only appearing in Mario spin-offs so yeah it was a kind of hiatus.

OOT isn't the "most important" Zelda game, but yeah, it's universally agreed to be one of the best games. But guess what, so is the whole of SNES's DKC. So K.Rool deserves his entry by your same logic. Since you said the series are comparable anyway.

Well, Ocarina is indeed one of the most important Zelda titles. It brought Zelda into 3D and created the formula that Zelda would rely on for nearly two decades. DKC on the other hand was to Super Mario World what DK64 is to Super Mario 64, Country took what made World great and spun off it's own way, very successfully I might add. DK 64 took what Super Mario 64 did and was upgraded in Banjo-Kazooie, and attempted upgrading it again but it just didn't work out as well.

You said yourself, BOTW's sales and universal acclaim. That's a good reason for a new character. And Impa could be just that through using the Sheikah Slate's magic.

I really don't think those two justify a spot though it does help. I feel like the Champions are a pipe dream to be honest and Wild Link is straight up terrible. All in all what we have now in Zelda reps are staying, for damn sure, and whomever comes next will have to be an evolving character that really really stands out and I just don't think any of the characters in Breath of the Wild really do that. Considering that that games biggest new character is the open world itself, yeah, I don't think we're getting a new character from BotW, which isn't, despite common belief, a bad thing.

 

[Cosmic77]

By this reasoning we shouldn't get any new Xenoblade character because of how different the style is from each game.

You know, I haven't even thought about the different art styles. Shulk and Rex are going to look so weird next to each other. Especially when you start comparing the eyes.

Konban wa. Hope it's cool to show y'all my ideal roster for the speculative Smash here since I do believe it will get more exposure here especially since I can only post once in the roster thread.



I decided to do the 30-character-roster approach in a similar fashion as to how there were many character cuts going into Tekken 4. The original twelve are here to stay apparently, as well as at least three newcomers each from Melee, Brawl, and 4. Yes, I chose to put on my roster because I would be goddamned if she did not show up. But I should not be since she's easy to license, the same as , right? My newcomers I predict are Viridi, Ashley, and Toon Zelda, the latter of whom I say is a good change of pace from having a clone Link.

Smash 4 does have 58 characters (66 if one counts the Koopalings and Alph) that are a blast to play, but I can't imagine seeing the speculative Smash have more characters than Tekken Tag Tournament 2. So please don't be too hard on me, a 56-year-old woman, for omitting a lot of the cast. Sate...tell Grandma Shizuka your thoughts about my roster.

Sayonara

You've got a few interesting cuts and additions here.

• As much as I hate to say it, Rosa isn't a high priority. I'd replace her with Bowser.
• Ashley is popular, but if we're trying to cut back on the characters, I don't know if WarioWare is the go-to series for a newcomer. Same with Viridi and Kid Icarus.
• DK and Diddy are fine. Both deserve to be there.
• If Toon Zelda is going to be a newcomer, then we might want to replace Sheik with Toon Link.
• Metroid is a little more expendable than other Nintendo franchises. Maybe cut ZSS for Dedede?
• NO FIRE EMBLEM CHARACTERS!? ARE YOU NUTS!? I fully support this decision.
• Bottom row is mostly fine, but is there any way we could squeeze in at least one more Pokemon character?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I agree on most. But Diddy was still in Double Dash.

Also, Impa has quite a great history in Zelda. She doesn't stand out greatly. But the last 3 major releases of Zelda could be used to influence her moveset. Skyward Sword wa hst biggest role, Hyrule Warriors was her first playable appearance and it had a port. And there's BOTW, where she had a minor appearance but still magic from the Sheikah Slate can be used for her moveset.

So I think she's the most logical choice for a Zelda character. She was in NES Zelda's manual, appeared in OOT, and almost all recent Zelda games. She's having a certain role in the future.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, Ocarina is indeed one of the most important Zelda titles. It brought Zelda into 3D and created the formula that Zelda would rely on for nearly two decades. DKC on the other hand was to Super Mario World what DK64 is to Super Mario 64, Country took what made World great and spun off it's own way, very successfully I might add. DK 64 took what Super Mario 64 did and was upgraded in Banjo-Kazooie, and attempted upgrading it again but it just didn't work out as well.

Honestly, when you look at important Zelda titles, like core games, you already have Zelda 1, ALTTP, and OOT alone. The later 3D games don't hold the same candle, but WW, TP, SS, and BOTW are all great in their own right. The various handheld titles aren't nearly as important, besides maybe Minish Cap(due to introducing how Link got his official cap). When it comes to Four Swords, you either would look at Adventures or the original ALTTP/FS combo.

I really don't think those two justify a spot though it does help. I feel like the Champions are a pipe dream to be honest and Wild Link is straight up terrible. All in all what we have now in Zelda reps are staying, for damn sure, and whomever comes next will have to be an evolving character that really really stands out and I just don't think any of the characters in Breath of the Wild really do that. Considering that that games biggest new character is the open world itself, yeah, I don't think we're getting a new character from BotW, which isn't, despite common belief, a bad thing.

My issue with the Shiekah Slate is how forced it feels. I wasn't a big fan of Zelda suddenly having Link's spells either, although it's not that illogical, and eventually for spoiler reasons it makes some sense(Skyward Sword-related). Wild Link is not an idea I like, but I do feel it has a chance to happen. Possibly higher than any one Champion. That said, I think Impa has great abilities to use as a character without being given moves from a game she doesn't play a remotely similar role in. I'd rather stuff from SS, her design from the Oracle games(not that that would happen, unfortunately for me...), and HW a bit. Unless she used the Shiekah Slate in the game according to the lore, it'd just be added on for the sake of it. Shoehorning in moves like that just feels lazy. It's not her or who she is. She's just better than that.

The thing about the Shiekah Slate is that it already has multiple moves that could easily be thrown onto the various cast and make some sense. The Bombs are best used with Link, and they could give something else to Zelda for her Down B(especially if they are interested in making Toon Zelda playable, which requires the phantom). That ice move could even be given to Zelda or Shiek easily. However, if Impa does become playable with a diverse moveset, some of the slate moves would be fine. But the gimmick would be completely shoehorned in to choose her. It's not her thing.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I agree on most. But Diddy was still in Double Dash.

Yeah, exactly my point. Pre release beta images showed DK Jr. In place of Diddy but after the buyout Diddy became a part of the roster, or so it's speculated. We do know that Nintendo did try to give Rare a lot of creative freedom with the DK property. All in all if Nintendo would have just coughed up the money to purchase Rare in it's entirety a lot of things would have been much better. Owning 100% stake in a company means that their creations are yours meaning that Diddy and Banjo and all of them would have been Nintendo characters at that point and licensing issues wouldn't have occurred meaning Diddy and to the same extent the rest of the Rare family could've appeared in multiple games over the past decade. In my opinion the Rare buyout was all bad timing. Nintendo was just coming off of a less successful N64 right into an abysmal GameCube launch, no wonder they were keeping the money they had close to them just in case. Rare needed more funds for next gen, GameCube, development. Sadly, things just didn't work out.

Also, Impa has quite a great history in Zelda. She doesn't stand out greatly. But the last 3 major releases of Zelda could be used to influence her moveset. Skyward Sword wa hst biggest role, Hyrule Warriors was her first playable appearance and it had a port. And there's BOTW, where she had a minor appearance but still magic from the Sheikah Slate can be used for her moveset.

So I think she's the most logical choice for a Zelda character. She was in NES Zelda's manual, appeared in OOT, and almost all recent Zelda games. She's having a certain role in the future.

I think Impa is indeed the most logical choice as well, while also being my first choice for a Zelda newcomer. I do not agree that Sheik should be replaced, however. I think what we have now is great and should stay no matter what and I'm definitely not against a new Zelda character coming in but I personally am fine with what we have and don't think we need a Newcomer for Zelda which, apparently, is an unpopular opinion but I digress. The Zelda newcomer debate is getting really tired at this point and Smash Switch hasn't even been announced. It always ends up boiling down to the same conclusion.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I am going to try this one last time. After some constructive criticism, I've revised my ideal roster, and it was my first time putting one together. To me it feels like Tekken 5 where most of the newcomers in Tekken 2 make a triumphant return. By the way, I'm still keeping Ashley, Toon Zelda, and Viridi 'cause they look good.

Spoiler

So, now what do y'all think?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay, I am going to try this one last time. After some constructive criticism, I've revised my ideal roster, and it was my first time putting one together. To me it feels like Tekken 5 where most of the newcomers in Tekken 2 make a triumphant return. By the way, I'm still keeping Ashley, Toon Zelda, and Viridi 'cause they look good.

Spoiler

So, now what do y'all think?

Whose the last character near MegaMan? Also, I don't think Shulk would get cut either. To be honest, you're giving a bit too much to some series, assuming we'll get no new ones. Toon Zelda and Viridi still don't have much of a chance. Falco is an unlikely cut. Lucas is far more likely to leave than you're giving credit for. Also, some of your characters are all over the place on the roster. It looks inconsistent, but that's also due to your setup as well. Perhaps do one more row to add those last few? Toon Zelda would be below Toon Link, and obviously Corrin would be below whoever is below Robin(that is a FE character?). Then the other various characters can be put in those spots. Mind you, it also depends if you're going for some kind of specific roster placement or if you have specific space for things. I know the Smash 4 roster felt a bit over the place and all, but it did have a pretty consistent design to it. Original Mario characters(Yoshi was included here), Modern Mario Characters, and then it goes through some various release-related stuff, then the clone characters, then the third 3rd parties, then the Mii Fighters, then DLC in exact order. I can't parse what your roster style is.