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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Krysco

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Another issue with what happened at EVO is it'll likely...I wanna say tarnish but that might be too powerful a word for it but basically, if Lima and/or Zack play SSBU, I can see people booing at them even if they don't end up using Bayo.

Anyways! All that doom and gloom aside, I finished up a moveset for Micaiah from Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn yesterday. First time I've ever done one of these.
Decided I'd focus on finishing the moveset this morning before I sleep for another night shift so here it is. Fair warning though, I do spoil things about Radiant Dawn to help give as much clarity as possible with certain parts of her moveset.
Miscellaneous stuff:
To start things off, I'll mention that I feel Micaiah should be a middle height lightweight. She should be shorter than Ike but taller than Mario and she doesn't wear armor or have heavy weapons nor is she large herself so the light weight makes sense.

For palettes, we'll assume she'll have 8. Her first would be her Light Mage outfit

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/9/9c/Micaiah_(FE10_Artwork).png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20160930101019

Her second outfit would be her Light Sage outfit

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:Lightsage.PNG

Her third would be her Light Priestess outfit

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ike_and_Yune_in_the_final_battle.png

Her fourth would be based on Sothe's Rogue outfit

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/3/3d/Sothe_(FE10_Artwork).png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/280?cb=20160930101401 Optional whether her hair changes colour though I'd personally keep it silver (helps since her Boxing Ring title could literally be Silver Haired Maiden although there are other names that work)

Her fifth would be based on the armor of a Daein soldier

https://youtu.be/b3yjuq4QYNk?t=29m3s

Her sixth would be based on Sanaki

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/4/44/Sanaki_Artwork_(FE10).png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/290?cb=20180502004212

Her seventh would be based on the herons Rafiel, Leanne and Reyson

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...est/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20170508093504

And her eighth outfit would be based on Yune

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/1/1d/Yune_Artwork_(FE10).png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/285?cb=20130113134233

I feel these 8 work rather well as they're all based on things tied to Micaiah (her 3 classes, her 'boyfriend' for lack of a better word, her countrymen, her sister, the laguz she has the closest tie to and the goddess that accompanies her) and she gets proper outfits for team battles with the Light Mage and Sanaki outfits being red, the Light Sage having blue in it and the Sothe outfit having green in it. And there's even yellow thanks to Yune's outfit.

Another potential outfit could be one based on Sephiran. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...est/scale-to-width-down/289?cb=20151018000605 The reason for Sephiran is he is Micaiah's ancestor.

Her stage appearance could be warp magic. Unoriginal, I know since all other FE characters save for Corrin use it but it makes sense for Micaiah given that she's a mage.

One of her walk animations is based on her walk animation during chapters https://youtu.be/ig7a_nULdDc?t=4m55s The uploader changes the speed to max like a sane person afterwards so I can't show it off outside of that cutscene. Characters in Smash also have more than one walk animation so Micaiah would require some unique ones made.

Her run animation is based on her run in the opening cutscene of Radiant Dawn https://youtu.be/ig7a_nULdDc?t=3m18s

Her lying down on back animation could be based on when she gets knocked down https://youtu.be/dLoNkLC5FIU?t=21s Lying down on front animation would have to be original.

Her crouch animation would be similar to Zelda's, going off the opening cutscene of RD again. https://youtu.be/2m_-WjCdIBg?t=8m36s Micaiah would not have a crawl.

Micaiah would have low movement speed much like how she's slow in RD. Plus I envision her as having a turtler playstyle.

Sleep animation would be similar to Marth's, having Micaiah kneel down and supporting herself with her staff.

Ledge grab animation would be Micaiah holding herself up with both hands. Ledge attack would be her pulling herself up and jabbing out her staff.

Both get up attack animations would have Micaiah hit to one side and then the other with her staff.

Normal grounded attacks:

Her jab combo would be a basic 2 hit combo with her staff, the first hit being an upward swing based on Mist's staff attack animation https://youtu.be/dLoNkLC5FIU?t=9m16s and the second hit would be a higher up hit based on the regular staff attack animation. https://youtu.be/dLoNkLC5FIU?t=6m18s This jab would be like Samus' where it doesn't connect fully until higher percents, the first hit would knock the opponent up while the second knocks them away, allowing Micaiah to continue attacking from afar with her spells. One could also choose not to do the second hit to attempt to follow up into a different attack.

Her forward tilt would have her turn her staff to make the bottom face the same direction she's facing and have her jab it outwards. This tilt would be primarily for trying to keep the opponent out so Micaiah could continue to attack at long range. Could also lead to tech chase scenarios, especially with Purge.

Her down tilt would be a kick, similar to Zelda's or Ryu's strong down tilt and would pop the opponent up, allowing for combos.

Her up tilt would be a quick swipe upwards with her staff, being a decently disjointed hitbox to anti air with and having low enough endlag to allow for combos at low percents. Horizontal range would be poor but would cover directly in front of and behind her.

Her smash attack charging animations could be based on her critical animations https://youtu.be/dLoNkLC5FIU?t=31s

Forward smash would be Micaiah casting Shine in front of her. There would be a sweetspot at the middle of the spell and as the move spreads outwards, it would get weaker.

Down smash would be her casting 2 Light or Ellight spells on both sides of her (so think Megaman's down smash but the hitboxes start above Micaiah and come down beside her).

Up smash is similar to Mewtwo's but a single hit instead of multihit. Based on the spell she uses in the opening cutscene of Radiant Dawn https://youtu.be/ig7a_nULdDc?t=3m5s

Dash attack would be a twirl before striking with the staff. Specifically thinking a backhand strike with it as that seems the quickest and most natural option out of a twirl. Would have a short burst as she starts the twirl before quickly stopping.

Aerials:

Neutral air would be a quick twirl as Micaiah releases light magic, hitting all around her. Would have a semi spike angle.

Forward air would be an overhead swing with the staff complete with Micaiah doing a somersault (think Rosalina's forward air but in the opposite direction).

Back air would have her strike behind her with the butt end of her staff. Thinking something like Pit's back air but with more range.

Up air would be a quick light spell, appearing a decent distance above Micaiah before finishing. Due to the nature of this move, if it's done while she's falling, it'll end roughly where she was (less so if she's fast falling) and if she's jumping while she uses it, the spell will actually envelope her as the spell forms above and descends before ending.

Down air would be a downward vertical swing with the staff with the tip of the staff having a meteor effect. Think similar animation to Ike's, Roy's and King Dedede's down air. Rest of the staff would send horizontally away.

Specials:

Her neutral special would be magic charging like Robin's but she won't have weapon durability to deal with and the spells will behave like they do in RD, coming from above at specific distances. The spells she would use are Light at first then Ellight then Thani and lastly Purge. Light would be a simple, quick single hit that would hit very close to in front of Micaiah and would just knock the opponent away. Ellight would be a multihit that would hit a little further away but would send the opponent towards Micaiah, allowing for combos. Thani would hit around the same range as Ellight, would be a single hit and would either ignore shields like the customs for Little Mac's side special and Meta Knight's down special or would do heavy shield damage. Purge would hit the furthest away and would take the longest to cast. During the casting animation, a reticle would appear at the Ellight/Thani range and can be moved further away from Micaiah if needed to hit enemies further away. Because the spells follow the RD animations, they can be used while onstage to hamper opponents offstage or can be used while Micaiah is on a platform to hamper those below her.

Side special could be a few things. It could be Silence where Micaiah uses it at a certain range and if it connects with the opponent, they lose access to their specials for a short time. It could be Sleep, being basically the same thing but putting the opponent to sleep instead. Would have no effect on aerial opponents. It could also be Rescue, putting a unique twist on the staff by using it as an offensive move to force the opponent close to Micaiah. There's also the option for the move to cycle between these options at random or in a specific order like Peach's forward smash. If customs come back, these other options could be her customs. To clarify on the Rescue idea, I know I put emphasis on Micaiah being a long range fighter and so bringing the opponent closer may sound counterintuitive but there are some characters that would do a better job camping than Micaiah which would force her to approach. The Rescue staff could help with this. I'm also thinking she could do some cool combos like ftilt to send the opponent away, Rescue to bring them back while still in hitstun and then something like jab or up tilt or whatever to finish or extend the combo.

Her up special would be Rewarp, making it similar to Palutena's, Mewtwo's and Zelda's up specials. If that's deemed too similar to the others, a hitbox could be added to her reappearance (but not her initial warp) either as a simple means of defense against those who attempt to hit her out of her recovery or as a tricky means of offense.

Down special would be Rescue/Guard. Basically, Micaiah would defend herself with her staff and if she's hit, Sothe will warp to her, take the hit and slash at the opponent. In other words, a fancy looking counter. Unoriginal in concept but in execution, it's not just another 'enter a fancy stance and then hit the opponent' and it actually has proper context given the bond Micaiah and Sothe have.

Her Final Smash would be a variation of Robin's. She would use the Rescue staff to bring Sothe to her who would then dash forward a distance before either hitting an opponent or warping away, similar to what Chrom does. After the initial hit, Sothe would slash at the opponent repeatedly while Micaiah charges up Rexaura before having the spell hit the opponent. Additional effects that could be added are the screen blacking out and slashing animations appearing before the spell brightens up the screen again to reference Sothe's Bane and a small but neat detail that could be added is Micaiah having red eyes like when Yune takes over her body.

Grabs and throws:

Micaiah would grab with magic much like Robin as she will always have a tome and a staff inhand. Could possibly give her a tether grab with the Rescue staff or even a disjointed grab where the grab box doesn't appear next to her but rather a distance away, much like Robin's Distant Nosferatu custom, putting further emphasis on Micaiah excelling at long range combat and not doing well at close range. If that's too much of a hindrance, she could have a small normal grab range along with her disjointed Rescue grab or she could just have a proper grab with magic.

Pummel would be unique. Pressing attack while grabbing an opponent will have Micaiah use Nosferatu, healing herself and damaging the opponent. This would be a slow pummel due to the value of healing. The damage and therefore healing rate could be anywhere from 1-3% or could scale based on Micaiah's percent and her opponent's much like how Robin's down special works. To further make her pummel special, pressing special while grabbing an opponent will have Micaiah use Sacrifice on them, healing the opponent and damaging Micaiah herself.

An adorable idea I had for her forward throw would be a clumsy push. This would be based on the opening cutscene of RD and would show how she isn't much of a physical fighter. https://youtu.be/2m_-WjCdIBg?t=8m43s

Back throw could either be using magic to powerfully send the opponent away like Robin, Ness and Mewtwo or she could send the opponent behind her before jabbing them with the end of her staff.

I have two ideas for down throw. One is where she puts the opponent onto the ground and twists the bottom of her staff onto the opponent before they're launched. The other is having her slam the opponent into the ground as she uses Rescue on Sothe to have him land on the opponent either with a stomp or a slash before he warps out.

Her up throw would have her throw the opponent up as she sticks her staff up, having the opponent land on the staff as she thrusts it up.

Shield and dodges:

Her shield animation would have her hold her staff up to attempt to defend herself and optionally, she could equip the Ward staff when she shields.

Her back roll animation would be based on this dodge animation https://youtu.be/pqpBe2JhuKw?t=6m4s The uploader does curse shortly after she dodges so here's your warning~

I couldn't find a video showing it but Micaiah also has a dodge animation where she twirls. That could be her forward roll and spot dodge.

Air dodge would be a twirl similar to her spot dodge and forward roll.

Taunts and victory animations:

One of her taunts could be her bow after killing an enemy from Radiant Dawn https://youtu.be/ig7a_nULdDc?t=6m3s

Another taunt could be Yune flying around her as she twirls before Yune flies back to her

Her last taunt could be based on her twirl animation when she first enters a battle https://youtu.be/dLoNkLC5FIU?t=46s

Alternatively, she could have a taunt where she sings a galdr https://youtu.be/lt7Dy-uUhIc?t=5h48m33s would have to be shortened down. Some of these could work as victory animations instead.

One immediate victory animation that comes to mind would be Sothe with Micaiah, standing back to back and looking at the camera.

Another victory animation for Micaiah could be her engulfing herself in blue flames before ending in a calmer pose or a badass one. Could even pull a Toon Link and have two victory animations, both having her engulf in flames but with the different poses. This would reference the cutscene before the final blow to Ashera is dealt. https://youtu.be/9BI4lYVuWRc?t=18m33s
My thoughts on Micaiah's playstyle would be heavily long range focused. Most of her normals would be catered towards simply keeping the opponent away and she would be able to cover a large amount of range between her staff and magic specials. She would have low movement speed and frame data similar to that of sword users but without the crazy range they have. I tried to have a focus on her using staves offensively as it's not a common sight in Fire Emblem and so would be a neat twist on them. Found myself favoring the Rescue staff due to the unique ways it could be used. I was debating putting the Torch staff somewhere in there and having it have a fire hitbox and it could certainly be done like on down air for example to add to the visuals of landing the move but I ultimately found it unnecessary as the most it would change is allow Micaiah to instantly detonate Blast Boxes with the move and would make red Pikmin immune to the attack. Other staves like Heal, Mend, Recover, Restore, Physic, Fortify, Ashera and Matrona, I couldn't think of any use for due to them being primarily healing focused which isn't too helpful in Smash.

Feel free to ask me questions about my moveset. I gave some moves more thought and attention than others, hence why some got a short, simple sentence description while others got more detail like knockback angles. In particular, I found it surprisingly hard to come up with aerials for her.
I don't see the character as a likely possibility at all but it was fun to do regardless
 

DMTN

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After the EVO exhibition we can pretty much confirm that this image is Lylat Cruise, not Orbital Gate Assault.

 

Schnee117

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Wow. Checking this thread I'm reaaally glad I stopped following competitive Smash 4.

Anyway, what big games had EVO reveals? And when are they usually done? I'm not convinced there's even a small chance of an EVO reveal tbh
BBTAG had its reveal of the next nine DLC characters that all drop on Monday plus a tease for a fifth franchise being added.

Top 8 is expected to have announcements too much like last year which had Geese in Tekken, Jubei in BBCF, the BBTAG reveal, Jedah in MvC:I, Abigail in SFV (lol) and Trunks in DBFZ. All happened after the Grand Finals for a game.

 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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One could argue that Dry Bowser appearing as a boss in some of the mainline titles makes him more important to the series than Daisy by default.....
To further explain this, Dry Bowser was the boss of the first World 8 castle in New Super Mario Bros. (his debut title). Additionally, Dry Bowser appeared in Super Mario 3D Land's special worlds, and in New Super Mario Bros. 2, he served as the boss of World Star-Castle.

While it's true that Dry Bowser only served as a main game boss in one game, he still appeared in more mainstream titles than Daisy.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Wow. Checking this thread I'm reaaally glad I stopped following competitive Smash 4.

Anyway, what big games had EVO reveals? And when are they usually done? I'm not convinced there's even a small chance of an EVO reveal tbh
It's usually after the finals, though so far Terry Bogard got confirmed to be in Fighting EX Layer (the Skullomania game) and a Switch version of Windjammers, the best fighting game that's only been surpassed by Mario Tennis Aces
 

CodakTheWarrior

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On the topic of Dry Bowser, I think he would totally make sense as an echo. The argument that Dark Pit is more important in HIS OWN series may be true, but in the world on Nintendo, Dry Bowser is certainly more iconic. I mean, it is the most popular alternate form of, debatably, the most iconic villain in gaming history. He is certainly more important than dark Pit, a tertiary antagonist from one 3ds game.

If it helps, take away the adjectives and just ask yourself; who's more iconic and important, Bowser or Pit?
 

osby

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On the topic of Dry Bowser, I think he would totally make sense as an echo. The argument that Dark Pit is more important in HIS OWN series may be true, but in the world on Nintendo, Dry Bowser is certainly more iconic. I mean, it is the most popular alternate form of, debatably, the most iconic villain in gaming history. He is certainly more important than dark Pit, a tertiary antagonist from one 3ds game.

If it helps, take away the adjectives and just ask yourself; who's more iconic and important, Bowser or Pit?
I don't think echo fighters is a pissing contest of iconicness. They are just characters people want to play as.
Mario already got an echo and Dry Bowser wasn't really requested that much prior to echo concept nor he's a different character from Bowser (:ultdoc: at least has his own games).
EDIT: Also you are downplaying Dark Pit, he's playable in said game.
 
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CodakTheWarrior

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I don't think echo fighters is a pissing contest of iconicness. They are just characters people want to play as.
Mario already got an echo and Dry Bowser wasn't really requested that much prior to echo concept nor he's a different character from Bowser (:ultdoc: at least has his own games).
And even then I'd argue that there are plenty of people who'd want to play as Dry Bowser.
 

Cosmic77

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Dry Bowser would work as an Echo, but I feel like he would be a forced addition. I know he's a popular Mario character, but saying he's even moderately requested? Huge overstatement.

Personally, I'd stick with characters like Daisy and Lucina; characters who are popular and are wanted in Smash, but might not have enough priority to be made a unique character over the other newcomers already decided.

Starting to get worried this is just Smash 4 deluxe. Where's the new content???
Pretty sure I saw Ridley at E3, but I glanced. Could be wrong.
 
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CodakTheWarrior

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I don't think echo fighters is a pissing contest of iconicness. They are just characters people want to play as.
Mario already got an echo and Dry Bowser wasn't really requested that much prior to echo concept nor he's a different character from Bowser (:ultdoc: at least has his own games).
EDIT: Also you are downplaying Dark Pit, he's playable in said game.
Well to be fair if you're using the playable argument then Dry Bowser is playable in numerous spin offs.

Also, that Dry Bowser support thread was for a unique character, NOT an echo. To my knowledge, there isn't a Dry Bowser echo thread. I'd say there would be a ton more supporters for it considering how harmless echoes are.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Dry Bowser would actually be a valid pick as Bowser's Echo Fighter. They both have the ability to breathe fire, and their body frames are alike as well.

Sure, the one thing that sets Dry Bowser apart from Bowser is his immunity to fireballs, but that's pretty much a moot point in Super Smash Bros..
 

WaxPython

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Pretty sure I saw Ridley at E3, but I glanced. Could be wrong.
I don't really consider a new fighter that will likely be bottom tier something substantial.

He could just have been smash 4 DLC if new fighters is all people care about.

Bringing back stuff like airdodging that never should have been removed isn't enough for me.

Keeping the same announcer isn't a good sign, and it's the first smash game that's announced the same year it will be out.

I want subspace 2, a better event mode, classic mode to be done.

So far too much riding on nolstalgia not enough new new. December isn't that far away and we haven't seen much.

Just my unpopular opinion though subject to change
 

Tree Gelbman

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Terry Bogard also got confirmed for SNK Heroines.

Because you know Japan loves a good gender bend.
 

Metal Shop X

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I don't really consider a new fighter that will likely be bottom tier something substantial.

He could just have been smash 4 DLC if new fighters is all people care about.

Bringing back stuff like airdodging that never should have been removed isn't enough for me.

Keeping the same announcer isn't a good sign, and it's the first smash game that's announced the same year it will be out.

I want subspace 2, a better event mode, classic mode to be done.

So far too much riding on nolstalgia not enough new new. December isn't that far away and we haven't seen much.

Just my unpopular opinion though subject to change
How can you tell a character that you haven't played is bottom tier? Can you see the futur or something?:ultshulk:
 

Cutie Gwen

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Terry Bogard also got confirmed for SNK Heroines.

Because you know Japan loves a good gender bend.
Well technically that was before EVO
I don't really consider a new fighter that will likely be bottom tier something substantial.

He could just have been smash 4 DLC if new fighters is all people care about.

Bringing back stuff like airdodging that never should have been removed isn't enough for me.

Keeping the same announcer isn't a good sign, and it's the first smash game that's announced the same year it will be out.

I want subspace 2, a better event mode, classic mode to be done.

So far too much riding on nolstalgia not enough new new. December isn't that far away and we haven't seen much.

Just my unpopular opinion though subject to change
My dude, we've already previously established that you're not good at telling when a character might be bottom 5, I'm not going to believe a thing you say about Ridley being bottom tier, especially with what top Smashers have said about him
 

MamaLuigi123456

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OK I skipped the whole Smash 4 tournament, could someone bring me up to speed?
I don't think echo fighters is a pissing contest of iconicness. They are just characters people want to play as.
Mario already got an echo and Dry Bowser wasn't really requested that much prior to echo concept nor he's a different character from Bowser (:ultdoc: at least has his own games).
EDIT: Also you are downplaying Dark Pit, he's playable in said game.
I mean spin-off rep or no, Dr. Mario is still Mario in a doctor's outfit.
The whole "Dry Bowser is just Bowser" argument kinda falls flat on its face because of this.

For the record I'm not saying you shouldn't... uh... not support Dry Bowser, support who you want. All I'm saying is that he's not out of the question as a candidate.
 

osby

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I don't really consider a new fighter that will likely be bottom tier something substantial.

He could just have been smash 4 DLC if new fighters is all people care about.

Bringing back stuff like airdodging that never should have been removed isn't enough for me.

Keeping the same announcer isn't a good sign, and it's the first smash game that's announced the same year it will be out.

I want subspace 2, a better event mode, classic mode to be done.

So far too much riding on nolstalgia not enough new new. December isn't that far away and we haven't seen much.

Just my unpopular opinion though subject to change
  • Tiers don't mean anything about content quality
  • Airdodging never removed
  • Announcer doesn't affect anything
  • Release date and announcement date being near doesn't mean anything for development time
  • Subspace 2 is impossible
 

WaxPython

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Well technically that was before EVO

My dude, we've already previously established that you're not good at telling when a character might be bottom 5, I'm not going to believe a thing you say about Ridley being bottom tier, especially with what top Smashers have said about him
So you can see the future and to know the characters I predicted to be bottom tier aren't?

Also I'm not referring to Snake as a heavy character in that context, he's known for being the exception to the rule for several reasons I don't need to go into. Ridley is more of a traditional heavy character, juggled easily etc
 
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Metal Shop X

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Because he's a heavy character that's just the historic trend.
Hmm...

Strange that you say that, because:

-Snake in Brawl is a high tier character

-Dedede in Brawl is a upper-mid tier character

-Bowser in Smash 4 s a middle tier character

-DK in Smash 4 is a middle tier character

But yeah, heavy characters are always bottom guys.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Starting to get worried this is just Smash 4 deluxe. Where's the new content???
It definitely isn't Smash 3DS / Wii U Deluxe if some of the characters have received makeovers (such as Ganondorf, going back to his Ocarina of Time incarnation). And of course, there's the Final Smash changes as well.
 

Cutie Gwen

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So you can see the future and to know the characters I predicted to be bottom tier aren't?
Your predictions were based off of the character trailers mostly as 3 of your predictions for bottom 5 weren't in the demo. Including Olimar, a mid tier in Smash 4 because he still only had 3 Pikmin and Jigglypuff, who only did cutesy stuff which showed nothing other than she can combo Fair into Rest with a Launch Star. There's Dedede too but Dedede's consistently been bad outside of chain grabbing so I was willing to give you that even if I think it's far too early to judge characters. Meanwhile one of the best Smash 4 players around, who played as Ridley at the demo, said he feels pretty damn oppressiv, which obviously means bottom tier
 
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