Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ThatRedPlumber]

Because they're different things.
Pichu is still a clone of Pikachu, but clearly he isn't an echo.

So is Pichu the only clone then? Young Link and Dr.Mario seem like Semi Clones in this game.

 

[Pyra]

No, I kinda neglected HOW different Marth and Roy's neutral specials are, which KMDP brought up too. It's a really good point.

Oop I musta missed him bringing that up cause I was fact checking myself while typing that and it took a while.

 

[osby]

People got soooooooo mad about the Vergeben Pokemon stuff, but at least that gave us something to actually discuss rather than,

"Was Roy used to be an echo or isn't? Am snakes heavy?"

I don't know anything about last generation, so it's better for me. :D

 

[blackghost]

Far too many post quotes for me to address them all but I'll just make a general statement.

Snake is the exception to the rule for several reasons he's not a typical heavy character , and dedede was only viable because of a broken chaingrab mechanic.

There's a good reason no heavy except snake is in high tier, they all share characteristics that make them easy to juggle and combo.

And Ridley is no different from what I've seen as one of the largest heavies with s huge hitbox unlike snake.

https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

Enough said really, I don't have much else to say

im with you about the heavies without chain grabs are grab kill confirms heavies are doomed. in smash 4 dk and bowser could grab and kill you at 60 percent and they still arent tournament threats. but also we know what will happen if a dlc or new character is good....

i mean right people expect bayo, shiek, marth, pokemon trainer, pikachu, and snake to be really good. well see long term but smash isnt marvel or dbfz theres not much more at play besides characters individual tools.

 

[Questionmark222]

So... what happened at the finals?

 

[Metal Shop X]

No the point stands, you can't take my statement literally context is very important

This can't happen to Snake https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

I group heavy fighters into that category ^ Snake is his own unique beast.

How do you know that about Snake? Bayo can combo almost every character like she want as long as the player is good enough with her ladder combo. Ridley made it easy due to it's big hitbox, but Snake is a heavyweight, which make him easy to combo too, not as much as Ridley, but still easy. (did you see video of snake getting ladder'ed by pro bayo player?)

Plus, nobody know how to play Ridley right now (especially in that video) and Bayo had a glitch that let her have a triple jump to extend her combo even further. Making that video just a very bad exemple as to how viable Ridley really is.

My point is: we don't know **** about Ridley in the long run, so calling him bad is just worthless now.

 

[Pyra]

Anyway, I might actually try attempting to git gud when the game comes out this time. If anyone wants to organize a little "discussion thread" league I'm down for settling stupid arguments with Smash

 

[---]

Rumors/Leaks. Clones/Semi-Clones/Echoes. We just love mixing up terminology in this thread.

All this echo talk is making me somewhat worried that Daisy is gonna end up like Dark Pit and get **** thrown at her for not being unique enough.

Yes and no. Dark Pit gets a lot of crap because of "lol reps" and that he has a lot of moveset potential outside of being a echo (Uprising Weapons). Dark Pit's character art has him with his staff and was a huge letdown in the aftermath of the ESRB leak.

Daisy is kind of the opposite. She's a Mario character so "lol reps" doesn't apply oddly enough, and that a unique moveset doesn't come to mind as easily (no offense to non-MemoryMan fans). Ironically the only thing we know thus far is that, like Dark Pit, her Side-Special sends opponents at a more horizontal angle.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

All this echo talk is making me somewhat worried that Daisy is gonna end up like Dark Pit and get **** thrown at her for not being unique enough.

Daisy is fortunate enough that she was revealed early, Dark Pit mostly got the amount of abuse he did because he was leaked alongside the final roster (plus Sakurai bias), and people always look for scapegoats in that scenario to blame for their favorites not making it (see: R.O.B.). The same will happen with Ultimate when we eventually get the final roster, although I don't think it'll be an echo this time as they've been smart enough to label them differently.

 

[?????????????]

So... what happened at the finals?

Three main things.

1.) The finals were between two Bayonettas. People didn't like that.
2.) Because of this, lots of people were booing, jeering, and saying many mean things. LOTS of people didn't like that.
3.) Either intentionally or not, the finalists stalled the match in a way that could be perceived as "showboating." People also didn't like that.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

People got soooooooo mad about the Vergeben Pokemon stuff, but at least that gave us something to actually discuss rather than,

"Was Roy used to be an echo or isn't? Am snakes heavy?"

I’m honestly finding these discussions more interesting than the Vergeben Gen 7 guessing game.

 

[Idon]

So is Pichu the only clone then? Young Link and Dr.Mario seem like Semi Clones in this game.

No, they're all clones.
If your moveset is based off another character you're a "clone". Now within that category are semi-clones, normal clones, and echoes.

Now where each character lies in the semi or normal clone is on a scale which everyone defines differently, but only specific fighters are echoes.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

No, they're all clones.
If your moveset is based off another character you're a "clone". Now within that category are semi-clones, normal clones, and echoes.

Now where each character lies in the semi or normal clone is on a scale which everyone defines differenrly, but only select fighters are echoes.

Gotcha. So, would Luigi, Wolf and Smash Ultimate Ganondorf be in their own category or would they be on the clone scale?

 

[domriver]

Three main things.

1.) The finals were between two Bayonettas. People didn't like that.
2.) Because of this, lots of people were booing, jeering, and saying many mean things. LOTS of people didn't like that.
3.) Either intentionally or not, the finalists stalled the match in a way that could be perceived as "showboating." People also didn't like that.

1. Sounds like an interesting match to see.
2. Meh that usually happens in professional thingys - certainly i dont like it when my team or whatever doenst wiin but I dont insult/boo or anything i just stay quiet with an upset look. lol
3. The finalists if it was intentional should have been called out by the organizers and put them in place. If it was for showboating there is always a time and place for that ie. youtube/twitter jejejjejeje.

 

[Pyra]

Gotcha. So, would Luigi, Wolf and Smash Ultimate Ganondorf be in their own category or would they be on the clone scale?

I personally call them semi-clones.
Well, actually I kinda use "luigified" but same difference. (To me). Obviously it's clear people use the terminologies differently though.

Ultimate Ganondorf is interesting to me because from what I hear he's almost like a hybrid clone now with the sword moves, between Captain Falcon and Ike or Cloud or something (I can't remember which one was better for the comparison)

 

[Freduardo]

Has Daisy been playable yet?

In melee clones often changed the physics of the character (stronger and slower, lighter and faster).

Now Lucina and Dark Pit didn’t do that except for Lucina’s “Sweet spot”.

But could Daisy?

 

[Deleted member]

Anyway, I might actually try attempting to git gud when the game comes out this time. If anyone wants to organize a little "discussion thread" league I'm down for settling stupid arguments with Smash

If only the Switch's online was free. I'm really hesitant to pay for online in general, and my experiences with Nintendo's online services have not been great.

Gotcha. So, would Luigi, Wolf and Smash Ultimate Ganondorf be in their own category or would they be on the clone scale?

Ganondorf is the only one I'd still label as a semi-clone, but even then, he plays so differently from Captain Falcon that it's hard for me to see him as derivative even though he obviously is. Wolf had his own moveset in Brawl with only a small handful of moves even being shared with Fox he has a more Fox-like nair now though, and Luigi's pretty distinct from Mario at this point.

 

[osby]

Has Daisy been playable yet?

In melee clones often changed the physics of the character (stronger and slower, lighter and faster).

Now Lucina and Dark Pit didn’t do that except for Lucina’s “Sweet spot”.

But could Daisy?

No, she's an echo.
EDIT: Developments team won't give new clones big differences. They already have a metric ton fighters to work on and it's better to just focus on unique newcomers.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Has Daisy been playable yet?

In melee clones often changed the physics of the character (stronger and slower, lighter and faster).

Now Lucina and Dark Pit didn’t do that except for Lucina’s “Sweet spot”.

But could Daisy?

So far, Daisy isn't playable in the demo, nor is Peach for that matter.

 

[Pyra]

Has Daisy been playable yet?

In melee clones often changed the physics of the character (stronger and slower, lighter and faster).

Now Lucina and Dark Pit didn’t do that except for Lucina’s “Sweet spot”.

But could Daisy?

No she's not.
I have a lot of doubt about that.
I think her special move properties might be tweaked a bit but otherwise remain the same (including with physics properties). I wonder if her vegetable pull will be even slightly different aesthetically though

If only the Switch's online was free. I'm really hesitant to pay for online in general, and my experiences with Nintendo's online services have not been great.

I very much hope the paid services are a solution to that problem (as in they use the money to improve their **** online), because I'm going to end up getting it anyway cause it's cheap and I like complaining about my team in Splatoon. But also because it's just easier for me (more convenient) to find fights and participate online. I'll probably try and go to locals and test the waters and see how toxic people get haha

 

[?????????????]

Someone proposed pulling carrots instead of turnips for Daisy. That'd be a cool Super Mario Land reference.

...I don't know if they'd actually do that, but I'd like it.

 

[Pyra]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

 

[Idon]

Gotcha. So, would Luigi, Wolf and Smash Ultimate Ganondorf be in their own category or would they be on the clone scale?

They're on the scale, but on the "based off another character but contain so many changes and differences they're barely recognizable to their template" end of it.

 

[?????????????]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

Monita from Nintendo Land.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

Now that is a topic I can get into.

Instead of Popeye (because public domain status for him in the whole world isn't possible yet), I think it could be Duke Nukem or Klonoa.

 

[KMDP]

How do you know that about Snake? Bayo can combo almost every character like she want as long as the player is good enough with her ladder combo. Ridley made it easy due to it's big hitbox, but Snake is a heavyweight, which make him easy to combo too, not as much as Ridley, but still easy. (did you see video of snake getting ladder'ed by pro bayo player?)

Plus, nobody know how to play Ridley right now (especially in that video) and Bayo had a glitch that let her have a triple jump to extend her combo even further. Making that video just a very bad exemple as to how viable Ridley really is.

My point is: we don't know **** about Ridley in the long run, so calling him bad is just worthless now.

Spoiler: I Have a Prediction!

People will initially mistakenly believe Ridley to be a low tier fighter because of his poor showing against Bayonetta at E3.
What a mystery.​

Someone proposed pulling carrots instead of turnips for Daisy. That'd be a cool Super Mario Land reference.

...I don't know if they'd actually do that, but I'd like it.

I like this idea!

Doo doo doo doo doo doo-doo...

 

[Deleted member]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

We've got to the point where the surprise character will happen, and there will be a support thread for it. That thread may only have a handful of replies, but it will exist.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

A bundle of dollar bills, it's unique gimmick is it flies to my bank account if I ever fight against it

 

[Deleted member]

A bundle of dollar bills, it's unique gimmick is it flies to my bank account if I ever fight against it

That's so overpowered! Why does it get to fly to your bank account? #BanDollarBill

 

[Pyra]

We've got to the point where the surprise character will happen, and there will be a support thread for it. That thread may only have a handful of replies, but it will exist.

Alright, someone compile a list of the least popular support threads. The surprise character will be one of them, 100% certain

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's so overpowered! Why does it get to fly to your bank account? #BanDollarBill

Ask Bluepikmin lmao

 

[Idon]

Alright, someone compile a list of the least popular support threads. The surprise character will be one of them, 100% certain

It's Boshi's time to shine!

 

[KMDP]

By the way, if you're having trouble with posting images from other sites to Smash Boards; say, you get a broken image instead.

Pro-tip: Take the "s" off of the https://

Alright, someone compile a list of the least popular support threads. The surprise character will be one of them, 100% certain

I direct you to the link in my signature.

It's not exactly in date anymore, but all the low support characters were accurate for the time.

 

[BlueMagician]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

I want to say Captain Rainbow, at least in the 'unexpected' department.

 

[Nonno Umby]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

Daitoryo aka Hanafuda Napoleon would be my first choice, but if I have to say the second character on that list...maybe Ivan from Devil's Third. He is kinda owned by Nintendo, I think, but I would have to check it.

 

[perfectchaos83]

That doesn't strike anybody else as odd?. He hints at a character, does not call them controversial, other people start saying he did call them controversial, to the point where he has to clarify why the character is controversial even though he wasn't the one to say that in the first place?

This is something I've noticed that he does. His DBF leaks had similar things added. When he originally leaked the base forms the community was rather mad. Simply going with them being stupid as **** additions. There was one guy on the GFAQs board that would always bring up how the Saiyan Saga is one of the most beloved sagas in Japan and how super popular the base forms. One of the next times he brings up the base forms he added a phrase just like that as justification for the Base Forms. His season 2 leak (Which is something I don't hold against him because he didn't trust it himself. Probably the only time I give Vergeben the benefit of the doubt) had Videl w/ Great Saiyaman as a character, something I and a couple other people on the DBF board on GFAQs suggested.

He's always taken a select few things that the community says and adds to his leaks. Particularly, this is why I think he added Snake since there were a sizable group of people who were questioning how Snake not being in Smash Switch made no sense if Simon Belmont was in.

 

[Untouch]

CEO had bayo dittos in the GFs and no one booed there.
MKLeo and Tweek also took it seriously.

 

[Garteam]

So, I wonder what ultimate's "unexpected/shocking character" will be.
I think in this case, you take whoever you were going to say first to fill this slot and throw them out the window and pick the second person on your list, lol

I'm still holding out for Ayumi Tachibana. However, given how limited the number of newcomers is this time around, I could see us not getting a conventional "shocking" character.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

You think a new character might be revealed at EVO today? I was thinking about Incineroar might be revealed because a wrestler fighter might be interesting.

 

[Idon]

I'm tellin this thread, Kazuya/Flynn from SMT is the darkhorse character no one is expecting, but makes too much sense.