Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ThatRedPlumber]

Starting to get worried this is just Smash 4 deluxe. Where's the new content???

Probably worth a watch if you’re worried about this being Smash 4.5.

 

[osby]

He was in Melee.

Not really. He has stat differences, his own number and no epsilon symbol.

 

[Pyra]

He was in Melee.

That categorization didn't exist until June 12th of this year.

Echo fighter =/= clone/semi-clone

 

[KMDP]

How can you tell a character that you haven't played is bottom tier? Can you see the futur or something?

"I CAN SEE THE FUTURE!"
---
Earlier today, Will posted this. Randomly generating a number for a character who would be top tier in Ultimate, he got Dr. Mario.

I just did the same, got #34, which is Ivysaur.

...What kind of crazy buffs would Ivysaur need to be top tier?

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

Not really. He has stat differences, his own number and no epsilon symbol.

I mean, I assumed Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link and Roy have their own number because they’re semi clones now. Isn’t “echo fighter” just the official term for clone?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

He was in Melee.

Roy was not even close to being Marth's Echo Fighter. Roy was nowhere near as fast as Marth, and he was also lighter than Marth (in the NTSC-U version anyway). Roy also fell at a faster speed, making his overall recovery worse than Marth's recovery.

Anyway, hardly any of the clone fighters in Melee qualified as being Echo Fighters; Dr. Mario probably came the closest to being Mario's Echo Fighter, but that was no longer the case when Smash 3DS / Wii U came to existence.

 

[osby]

I mean, I assumed Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link and Roy have their own number because they’re semi clones now. Isn’t “echo fighter” just the official term for clone?

It's an official term for fighters who share all of their moves and stats with another fighter.
Roy: Fire Blade
Pichu and Young Link: size
Dr. Mario: weight
They were never echo fighters.

 

[KMDP]

I mean, I assumed Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link and Roy have their own number because they’re semi clones now. Isn’t “echo fighter” just the official term for clone?

It's... complicated.

Even back in Melee, the Clones had more effort put into them (as in, stat changes and the like) than Dark Pit and Lucina.

So... no?

 

[Idon]

I mean, I assumed Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link and Roy have their own number because they’re semi clones now. Isn’t “echo fighter” just the official term for clone?

Nope.
Echo fighters are a type of clone that has the same stats, but only different properties on some moves.

 

[?????????????]

Does the fire blade and stat differences really make that much of a distinction? That sounds "echo-y" enough to me.

I mean, Daisy uses flowers. If she had different stats, would she be a semi-clone suddenly?

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

It's an official term for fighters who share all of their moves and stats with another fighter.
Roy: Fire Blade
Pichu and Young Link: size
Dr. Mario: weight
They were never echo fighters.

I get it now, so echo fighters pretty much only have visual differences and minor things like Lucina’s sword hitbox?

 

[osby]

It's... complicated.

Even back in Melee, the Clones had more effort put into them (as in, stat changes and the like) than Dark Pit and Lucina.

So... no?

Basically echo fighters happen when people still ask for newcomers after 60 fighters.

 

[?????????????]

And wait, don't Marth and Lucina ALREADY have stat differences? Even a slight height difference?

And doesn't Dark Pit use electricity with his Side B?

 

[WaxPython]

Far too many post quotes for me to address them all but I'll just make a general statement.

Snake is the exception to the rule for several reasons he's not a typical heavy character , and dedede was only viable because of a broken chaingrab mechanic.

There's a good reason no heavy except snake is in high tier, they all share characteristics that make them easy to juggle and combo.

And Ridley is no different from what I've seen as one of the largest heavies with s huge hitbox unlike snake.

https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

Enough said really, I don't have much else to say

 

[KMDP]

And wait, don't Marth and Lucina ALREADY have stat differences? Even a slight height difference?

And doesn't Dark Pit use electricity with his Side B?

The height difference between Marth and Lucina is so small you'd be hard-pressed to find it making a difference (unlike with Young Link and Pichu).

And I don't think adding Electricity to Dark Pit's Side B is a statistical difference.

 

[osby]

And wait, don't Marth and Lucina ALREADY have stat differences? Even a slight height difference?

And doesn't Dark Pit use electricity with his Side B?

They still don't have anything to balance them for larger cast.
It's just a few pixel and a move property.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

Honestly, this makes it even less likely that Dixie Kong would be a Diddy echo, She would be a semi clone or completely unique.

 

[?????????????]

I agree that Roy isn't an echo now, but I think it's splitting hairs to say he WASN'T what our current definition of an echo was back then.

But this is a completely moot argument.

 

[osby]

I agree that Roy isn't an echo now, but I think it's splitting hairs to say he WASN'T what our current definition of an echo was back then.

But this is a completely moot argument.

Marth was high tier in Melee, while Roy was low tier.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

All this echo talk is making me somewhat worried that Daisy is gonna end up like Dark Pit and get **** thrown at her for not being unique enough.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Honestly, this makes it even less likely that Dixie Kong would be a Diddy echo, She would be a semi clone or completely unique.

If anything, I would only bring up the possibility of Donkey Kong series Echoes after it manages to get 4 characters. Until then, it's an exercise in futility and tin foil hats.

 

[Cosmic77]

That categorization didn't exist until June 12th of this year.

Echo fighter =/= clone/semi-clone

An Echo Fighter is basically a clone character hiding under a new name. They definitely aren't semi-clones, but nothing has truly changed for them since Smash 4.

Unless Lucina and Dark Pit whip up some new moves like Dr. Mario, I don't see why we can't use clone and Echo interchangeably.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All this echo talk is making me somewhat worried that Daisy is gonna end up like Dark Pit and get **** thrown at her for not being unique enough.

Don't worry people are already throwing **** at her because of memoryman's existence

 

[Idon]

An Echo Fighter is basically a clone character hiding under a new name. They definitely aren't semi-clones, but nothing has truly changed for them since Smash 4.

Unless Lucina and Dark Pit whip up some new moves like Dr. Mario, I don't see why we can't use clone and Echo interchangeably.

Because they're different things.
Pichu is still a clone of Pikachu, but clearly he isn't an echo.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Far too many post quotes for me to address them all but I'll just make a general statement.

Snake is the exception to the rule for several reasons he's not a typical heavy character , and dedede was only viable because of a broken chaingrab mechanic.

There's a good reason no heavy except snake is in high tier, they all share characteristics that make them easy to juggle and combo.

And Ridley is no different from what I've seen as one of the largest heavies with s huge hitbox unlike snake.

https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

Enough said really, I don't have much else to say

Your point was that all heavy character were bottom, when they were in fact heavy character who weren't. Doesn't matter if snake is the only high tier, tier list aren't made of only "Top Tier" and "Bottom Tier" characters.

Ridley could very well end up like Bowser & DK in Smash 4: a decent character, but whose weakness don't make good for high play, but still decent enough that they aren't straigh up garbage.

But in all, calling characters from a game isn't finish bottom tier or high tier is just pointless at this time. Just wait for the game to come out before already calling who is good or bad.

 

[DraginHikari]

There are certainly other fighting games that are still played competitively years after their release like Street Fighter 2 and such, Melee is just one of them.

The biggest difference is Street Fighter 2 has been ported to modern systems multiple times. So far Nintendo has shown no interest in port Melee to make it accessible without needing to lug old TVs around.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I honestly hope that Smash Ultimate isn't as bad as Smash 4 was... not because Smash 4 had some broken characters, but mostly what those broken characters did to the community.

 

[osby]

All this echo talk is making me somewhat worried that Daisy is gonna end up like Dark Pit and get **** thrown at her for not being unique enough.

If you like the character, there's no reason to care.

 

[?????????????]

I mean.......

The toppest tier characters we've had are less based on "weight" and more based on "what cheap tricks can you pull of with this guy?"

 

[WaxPython]

Your point was that all heavy character were bottom, when they were in fact heavy character who weren't. Doesn't matter if snake is the only high tier, tier list aren't made of only "Top Tier" and "Bottom Tier" characters.

No the point stands, you can't take my statement literally context is very important

This can't happen to Snake https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

I group heavy fighters into that category ^ Snake is his own unique beast. And DK bad Bowser are Bottom tier, maybe my bottom tier is someone else's low tier.

 

[KMDP]

I agree that Roy isn't an echo now, but I think it's splitting hairs to say he WASN'T what our current definition of an echo was back then.

But this is a completely moot argument.

Marth was high tier in Melee, while Roy was low tier.

And don't try to say "Marth is high tier, Lucina is mid tier" because that's a smaller gap in a much larger cast.

Also...
Roy had
1) A different sweetspot
2) A different weight
3) Different air speed
4) Different ground speed
5) More damage on Flare Blade than Shield Breaker in general.

Lucina has
1) No sweetspot
2) A pixels worth of height difference that might not even change the actual hitbox.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I missed absolutely nothing

 

[Mc.Rad]

I missed absolutely nothing

That's the theme of this thread tbh

 

[?????????????]

People got soooooooo mad about the Vergeben Pokemon stuff, but at least that gave us something to actually discuss rather than,

"Was Roy used to be an echo or isn't? Am snakes heavy?"

 

[Pyra]

I agree that Roy isn't an echo now, but I think it's splitting hairs to say he WASN'T what our current definition of an echo was back then.

But this is a completely moot argument.

Weren't their neutral specials different? One of them broke shields and one of them was a OHKO instead. They have the same animations (minus length and additional effects) but are otherwise widely different.


Isn't electroshock arm just a slightly stronger, electric version of upperdash arm that launches at a slightly different angle?
And more pointedly, Lucina's neutral special is still just Shield Breaker, same as Marth's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand haha. It's not like I paid attention to Melee at all (I played it for fun when I played it as a kid) so I'm probably wrong but hey

 

[osby]

I missed absolutely nothing

We were just talking about how great having Bayonetta and Dark Pit in the same game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No the point stands, you can't take my statement literally context is very important

This can't happen to Snake https://youtu.be/qg5BSxLGgZM

I group heavy fighters into that category ^ Snake is his own unique beast. And DK bad Bowser are Bottom tier, maybe my bottom tier is someone else's low tier.

Person A: Heavies are always bottom tier
Person B: *multiple examples of mid tier heavies*
Person A: Shut up you're taking me out of context also Jigglypuff doing cutesy things and an item combo means she's bottom 5

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's an official term for fighters who share all of their moves and stats with another fighter.
Roy: Fire Blade
Pichu and Young Link: size
Dr. Mario: weight
They were never echo fighters.

Dr. Mario and Mario did share the same weight in the NTSC-U version of Melee.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I don't really consider a new fighter that will likely be bottom tier something substantial.

He could just have been smash 4 DLC if new fighters is all people care about.

Bringing back stuff like airdodging that never should have been removed isn't enough for me.

Keeping the same announcer isn't a good sign, and it's the first smash game that's announced the same year it will be out.

I want subspace 2, a better event mode, classic mode to be done.

So far too much riding on nolstalgia not enough new new. December isn't that far away and we haven't seen much.

Just my unpopular opinion though subject to change

Criticizing something, especially when it's pretty much in its alpha build, over pure speculation isn't being critical, it's looking for **** to ***** about.

Mod Edit: Do not censor dodge

 

[?????????????]

Weren't their neutral specials different? One of them broke shields and one of them was a OHKO instead. They have the same animations (minus length and additional effects) but are otherwise widely different.


Isn't electroshock arm just a slightly stronger, electric version of upperdash arm that launches at a slightly different angle?
And more pointedly, Lucina's neutral special is still just Shield Breaker, same as Marth's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand haha. It's not like I paid attention to Melee at all (I played it for fun when I played it as a kid) so I'm probably wrong but hey

No, I kinda neglected HOW different Marth and Roy's neutral specials are, which KMDP brought up too. It's a really good point.