Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[AlphaSSB]

I honestly feel weary for Smash Ultimate's competitive scene, now. I really hope someone at Nintendo caught on to the crowd's dissatisfaction with the Grand Finals and it somehow gets to Sakurai. People in the crowd leaving in droves before and during Grand Finals is never a good thing, and I can't blame them for doing so. That Grand Finals was a joke, and an embarrassment to the Smash's competitive scene and community. What worries me is if Bayonetta remains largely unchanged in Smash Ultimate, I can see the same thing happening all over again.

I really hope Smash Ultimate ends up being better, but after seeing Bayonetta at E3, I'm unsure if it will.

In regards to stages, I'd love to see a Gyromite stage for ROB. I saw a concept stage somewhere on Reddit that was super simple, but looked really good. Otherwise, an idea I had for a stage would be like a successor to Poke Floats. Only instead of Pokemon, it'd be Nintendo Floats, where the platforms would be pieces of Nintendo hardware. Start on the Famicom, and work your way all the way to the Switch and LABO. A stage like that could also work for ROB's home stage.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wow, me working last night actually turned out in my favour. I only read this thread during breaks at work and so I got to see the thread locked up and I immediately knew something big happened. Could've ended up completely oblivious to this and only noticed it months later whenever I catch up to this point. All for the stricter focus on rules being followed~

As for my thoughts on the issue, what Lima and Zach (Zack?) did was pretty bad and many others have already pointed out the reasons why. It'd be like doing an upwards, friendly pitch in a competitive baseball match because the batter is your best friend. That all being said, I felt admittedly giddy after watching what happened.

To make this post have some focus on SSBU, if Bayo or honestly ANY character is as ridiculous as Sm4sh Bayo was, I hope the competitive community actually bans them and I'm generally against bans. Some people play a character that happens to be top tier just because they genuinely like the character for who they are and/or for how they play and I wouldn't want to take that away from someone. Wouldn't want it to happen to me. But the Smash competitive community is very odd with their bans.

Custom Miis get banned super quickly without even a second thought even though they aren't broken (possibly debatable on Small Brawler with certain up specials but that's the only exception) and don't take long to set up, stages get banned even if they're perfectly fine (Delfino in Brawl, almost Lylat in Sm4sh) and yet characters are this holy ground that can't be touched with bans. Brawl MK should've been banned way earlier than when he was. Same goes for Sm4sh Cloud in doubles. Sm4sh Bayo IS admittedly debatable but it's very clear that she's above the rest of the cast in terms of viability and unlike Melee Fox, she doesn't even seem to have many, if any 50/50 MUs.

This is all a big if though. Ultimate will presumably get patches and not be ditched so quick since it's on a successful console and plus the dev team can look back at Sm4sh and see what worked and didn't work. And there will of course be top tiers and low tiers and the balance won't be super perfect or whatever. But if a character is truly overpowered, they should be banned rather than hoping for a miracle patch. If the dev team bothers to pay attention to the competitive scene (which Sm4sh's patches prove they do) then they'll know to deal swift and necessary nerfs to a character if they get banned and only AFTER the nerfs should the character be reallowed into the competitive scene. And this is if no counterplay can be found first towards such a character.

I get what you mean but at the same time I feel that if hypothetically, Bayo got banned and then gets nerfed to oblivion in a patch, Smash players will still go "NO SHE'S BANNED SHE DESERVED IT AND SHOULD STAY BANNED" because the community's behaviour has lead me to think this is a possibility

 

[osby]

I honestly feel weary for Smash Ultimate's competitive scene, now. I really hope someone at Nintendo caught on to the crowd's dissatisfaction with the Grand Finals and it somehow gets to Sakurai. People in the crowd leaving in droves before and during Grand Finals is never a good thing, and I can't blame them for doing so. That Grand Finals was a joke, and an embarrassment to the Smash's competitive scene and community. What worries me is if Bayonetta remains largely unchanged in Smash Ultimate, I can see the same thing happening all over again.

I really hope Smash Ultimate ends up being better, but after seeing Bayonetta at E3, I'm unsure if it will.

In regards to stages, I'd love to see a Gyromite stage for ROB. I saw a concept stage somewhere on Reddit that was super simple, but looked really good. Otherwise, an idea I had for a stage would be like a successor to Poke Floats. Only instead of Pokemon, it'd be Nintendo Floats, where the platforms would be pieces of Nintendo hardware. Start on the Famicom, and work your way all the way to the Switch and LABO. A stage like that could also work for ROB's home stage.

I don't think just because it isn't Bayonetta, people will stop playing as the top tier character.

 

[Cosmic77]

That's why I don't take competitive Smash seriously.

EDIT: But yeah, that part make me like Bayonetta even more.

That was more or less a joke. Even then, I think they should get a pass. Ridley was new, and they wanted to see him do good.

Regardless, booing isn't as much of a problem as the competitors themselves. Yeah, booing can be seen as childish, but even the professional sports outside of e-sports have that. The disrespectful players who don't take their matches seriously is what's damaging to Smash's image.

 

[Untouch]

wow if the audience didn't like that match I'd like to see their reaction to that time in smash 64 before they went with timers to prevent stalling and both the players just stood still for more than 30 minutes

 

[osby]

Who is that Masked Man?

I know! It's Hong-Kong Phooey!

I think you forgot "Basketball without the Harlem Globetrotters?".

You make a good point, though.

The fact that players are basically forced to show the audience "hey, I'm playing to win, even if it's frowned upon", is both a blessing and a curse.

It's a tournament, aren't everybody playing to win?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That was more or less a joke. Even then, I think they should get a pass. Ridley was new, and they wanted to see him do good.

Regardless, booing isn't as much of a problem as the competitors themselves. Yeah, booing can be seen as childish, but even the professional sports outside of e-sports have that. The disrespectful players who don't take their matches seriously is what's damaging to Smash's image.

But that's the thing, why would you want to appeal to the people who keep booing you constantly? It's a ****ty thing to do for the game's final EVO run, but why would you respect people who refuse to respect you? I can guarantee that had Bayonetta not been booed constantly, this wouldn't have happened

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

As much as I hate the idea of his inclusion

I'm on the team that puts Waluigi on the new Ridley tier.
Never ever until Sakurai caves in or just stops directing.

There is also Birdo. Yes, she is usually a boss, but is also important, due to Super Mario Bros. 2 also introducing Snifits, Shy Guys and Beezos into the Mario mythos.

Not necessarily, despite PR speak DLC is regularly planned before the game finishes; it was certainly the case for Smash 4 despite Sakurai's statements that DLC wouldn't be considered until the game released, where besides the Gematsu leak claiming DLC was being planned, Mewtwo was clearly in development before Smash 3DS released, and from the timeline Lucas/Roy/Ryu probably were in development before 3DS released too (as a new Smash character can take over a year to make and they released within 9 months of Smash3DS' Japanese release).

As for Tails, he is just a minor background character, so he could just not show up when a playable Tails is in play, just like the Alphonso situation and Dedede on Dream Land.

When Tails goes into battle, Blaze takes up the loop de loop run. "Leave it to me!"

So, if we're getting a reveal at EVO it's going to be tomorrow, right?

What should we be looking out for?

The very end of EVO. Either that or:

This conversation actually got me thinking. How come Dr. Mario hasn't appeared in other Mario spinoffs that aren't of his own?
I mean, we got two different versions of these things.

Seriously, some Nintendo higher-ups must have really small memories for ideas on characters in spin-offs ever since Iwata left us.

"Who should we add next?"
"Hmmm...Peach made out of metal."

If R.O.B. is considered as a real world toy, it makes sense he has no stage. He wasn't in his own games.
I wouldn't object him getting one but I get they never did until today.

R.O.B. may be a real world toy, but he still has games associated with him (albeit only 2)

Sure but he wasn't IN those games. They aren't really his home.
Though, even if I don't like the games, a stage inspired from them might soften the trauma R.O.B. experienced.

If anything, it should be a playable Professor Hector getting such a stage. Whether HE shows up is a different matter entirely, however. I don't recall him even getting a sticker.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't think just because it isn't Bayonetta, people will stop playing as the top tier character.

It's not even just because she's overpowered, Brawl MK was significantly more dominant and even he was more accepted, it's also that she's awful both to play against and watch, she ignores most of the rules every other character has to abide by and makes it feel like a completely different game. When you look at the other games the most hated characters are for the same reason, Jigglypuff for Melee and ICs for Brawl are both more hated than the top tiers for their respective games simply for making the experience unenjoyable.

Smash 4 was perfectly fine before Bayo, in fact the character diversity was amazing, but in she strolled and ruined most of the enjoyment found in the game's competitive scene. I'm really not sure what Sakurai was thinking when he designed her, the problem is at the very core of the character and not as easily fixable as with Jiggs, ICs or even MK, you pretty much have to gut her concept to get her in line with the rest.

 

[KMDP]

It's a tournament, aren't everybody playing to win?

Yes, obviously.

But... how do I word this... it can reach a point where you're playing to win to the detriment of fair play?

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Here's a question. Say Sakurai notices the Bayonetta issue and he decides the only way to reallly remedy the issue I see to nerf Bayonetta into the ground and make her one of the worst characters in the game. Would people be really all upset? I personally don't think I would be

 

[Krysco]

I get what you mean but at the same time I feel that if hypothetically, Bayo got banned and then gets nerfed to oblivion in a patch, Smash players will still go "NO SHE'S BANNED SHE DESERVED IT AND SHOULD STAY BANNED" because the community's behaviour has lead me to think this is a possibility

That is true. And unfortuantely, the 'community' seems to pull all the strings. "Oh, no one wants to learn how to fight a bigger or smaller Mii? Welp, guess we'll ban them then. They're not broken at all, people are just lazy and that's good enough."

Pokemon has done this sort of thing and while it's an entirely different genre of game, it seems to have worked. Mew was stuck in ubers for the first few generations but then power creep knocked it out of there.

And honestly, another thing I'd love for the dev team to do is focus more on buffs than nerfs this game. So many low tiers got buffed in Sm4sh but only 2 really ended up mattering: the ones for Mewtwo and Marth. Meanwhile, nerfs took Luigi, Greninja and MK out of top tier and otherwise just made the still dominate lot of Bayo, Cloud, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, Sheik, Sonic and ZSS all just fight each other slower and worse. Part of what makes Melee so fun to watch is how well equipped the top 8 all are to fight each other. Nerfing them to be more in line with the mid and low tiers would kill Melee whereas buffing the low tiers to be more like the high tiers would make it even better. Well in my opinion anyways.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

why would you respect people who refuse to respect you? I can guarantee that had Bayonetta not been booed constantly, this wouldn't have happened

This isn't an excuse Gwen.

What the two players did is arguably collusion at worst and insanely tone deaf at best.

Even if they had the best intentions, you're an idiot if you go and try to make things worse.

It's not behavior that should be acceptable.

Look, Zack and Lima have been harassed all throughout their careers but part of that is because they are swimming with the sharks while attaching steaks to every part of their bodies.

They aren't adults and today they acted like it when this was their chance to prove that they were.

 

[osby]

It's not even just because she's overpowered, Brawl MK was significantly more dominant and even he was more accepted, it's also that she's awful both to play against and watch, she ignores most of the rules every other character has to abide by and makes it feel like a completely different game. When you look at the other games the most hated characters are for the same reason, Jigglypuff for Melee and ICs for Brawl are both more hated than the top tiers for their respective games simply for making the experience unenjoyable.

Smash 4 was perfectly fine before Bayo, in fact the character diversity was amazing, but in she strolled and ruined most of the enjoyment found in the game's competitive scene. I'm really not sure what Sakurai was thinking when he designed her, the problem is at the very core of the character and not as easily fixable as with Jiggs, ICs or even MK, you pretty much have to gut her concept to get her in line with the rest.

Then tournaments could ban her, really. Then sure didn't have a problem with it when banning Miis.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Smash 4 was perfectly fine before Bayo, in fact the character diversity was amazing, but in she strolled and ruined most of the enjoyment found in the game's competitive scene. I'm really not sure what Sakurai was thinking when he designed her, the problem is at the very core of the character and not as easily fixable as with Jiggs, ICs or even MK, you pretty much have to gut her concept to get her in line with the rest.

Somehow, I think Kamiya may be to blame for this one.

"Yo, Sakurai, make sure she's as strong as in my games, I won't block you on Twitter! Cool? Peace out then."

 

[BeardyBennett]

Still, the notion a perfectly legal character can get you booed is very discouraging and outright gatekeeping even. "Hey man, join our scene, we want Smash to be taken seriously. Also we'll boo you immensely every time you pick a legal character. We want to be taken VERY seriously"

I think people should lean into it honestly. Like, if somehow Dr. Mario or Ganondorf (my two primary mains) got booed by people, I would totally lean into it and just become a villain. I would be sitting there grinning the whole time as I Ganon-spike people into oblivion and here people boo. You see this in some other scenes, though more-so with trash-talk creating the villains. I don't see it as gate-keeping, though it's perfectly understandable and legitimate for people to. I see it more-so as, if you're picking Bayo then bask in it as Bayo herself would and beat the person beside/across from you. But that's just me and my dream of one day getting good enough at Smash that I can become a villain lol

 

[osby]

Somehow, I think Kamiya may be to blame for this one.

"Yo, Sakurai, make sure she's as strong as in my games, I won't block you on Twitter! Cool? Peace out then."

Nah, Sakurai noted he made her close to her games as possible because he wasn't sure how else she could fight.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's not even just because she's overpowered, Brawl MK was significantly more dominant and even he was more accepted, it's also that she's awful both to play against and watch, she ignores most of the rules every other character has to abide by and makes it feel like a completely different game. When you look at the other games the most hated characters are for the same reason, Jigglypuff for Melee and ICs for Brawl are both more hated than the top tiers for their respective games simply for making the experience unenjoyable.

Smash 4 was perfectly fine before Bayo, in fact the character diversity was amazing, but in she strolled and ruined most of the enjoyment found in the game's competitive scene. I'm really not sure what Sakurai was thinking when he designed her, the problem is at the very core of the character and not as easily fixable as with Jiggs, ICs or even MK, you pretty much have to gut her concept to get her in line with the rest.

Honestly there is one easy way to fix her without gutting her.

Make sure her aerials can't kill and make them all combo based. She's a combo character right? Make it so that its her entire focus.

Smash 4 Bayo's problem is that her combos lead to deaths, remove that option.

That's just one big general fix I think could easily nerf her without going overboard. I won't go into specifics right now.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Nah, Sakurai noted he made her close to her games as possible because he wasn't sure how else she could fight.

It is a bit akin to including Viewtiful Joe and leaving his gameplay as is. He'd be even more broken than (or equally as) Bayo with his Slow, Mach Speed and Zoom powers.

 

[osby]

It is a bit akin to including Viewtiful Joe and leaving his gameplay as is. He'd be even more broken than (or equally as) Bayo with his Slow, Mach Speed and Zoom powers.

He'd actually mentioned he make Witch Time a move, not an effect of her dodges, because that would be obnoxious.
Though, I think some people think it still is, even if did nerfed in Ultimate.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Here's a question. Say Sakurai notices the Bayonetta issue and he decides the only way to reallly remedy the issue I see to nerf Bayonetta into the ground and make her one of the worst characters in the game. Would people be really all upset? I personally don't think I would be

Definitely not, not only is it bad for the game to have a character like that in it, but it's also bad for the character and its actual fans. After Brawl MK I never hope for the character(s) I play to be top tier in any game, it's no fun to be associated with all the negative stereotypes that comes with playing a top tier character, even when he was awful at the start of Smash 4 I was just grateful not to be in that situation anymore.

The best thing they could do is overnerf her to begin with, then gradually get her back in line as just a viable option, in that way the hate will slowly wear off and she'll begin anew.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Of the stages not yet shown the ones I think will return are

• All the N64 Stages (with the possible exceptions of SectorZ and Planet Zebes given they were remade as Corneria and Brinstar)
• Rainbow Ride (Been in every game since it first showed up, not reason to drop it now)
• Fountain of Dreams (Fan favorite)
• Yoshi's Island Melee
• Pirate Ship (got brought back as DLC for 4 so it's got demand)
• Paper Mario
• Jungle Hijinx
• Woolly World (Maybe with Yarn Yoshi as a costume or Echo?)
• Gamer

And stages I have doubts for but hope will return

• Metal Mario's stage
• Sector Z and Planet Zebes
• Mushroomy Kingdom Underground Var
• Pokefloats
• Mute City (both versions)
• Orbital Gate

 

[Cosmic77]

But that's the thing, why would you want to appeal to the people who keep booing you constantly? It's a ****ty thing to do for the game's final EVO run, but why would you respect people who refuse to respect you? I can guarantee that had Bayonetta not been booed constantly, this wouldn't have happened

Not saying the excessive booing was needed, but the audience did had a reason to be upset. Even if they had chosen a more respected character such as Mewtwo, what they did was insulting, and I'm sure the dozens of people who flew out of state to attend EVO and watch Smash 4's final run were immensely disappointed.

It's not even just because she's overpowered, Brawl MK was significantly more dominant and even he was more accepted, it's also that she's awful both to play against and watch, she ignores most of the rules every other character has to abide by and makes it feel like a completely different game. When you look at the other games the most hated characters are for the same reason, Jigglypuff for Melee and ICs for Brawl are both more hated than the top tiers for their respective games simply for making the experience unenjoyable.

Smash 4 was perfectly fine before Bayo, in fact the character diversity was amazing, but in she strolled and ruined most of the enjoyment found in the game's competitive scene. I'm really not sure what Sakurai was thinking when he designed her, the problem is at the very core of the character and not as easily fixable as with Jiggs, ICs or even MK, you pretty much have to gut her concept to get her in line with the rest.

I think the biggest problem was Bayo being a DLC character. I felt like Sakurai and the development team went to extra lengths to make the non-veteran characters extremely unique and gimmicky (particularly the third-parties), and that's something I wasn't fond of.

I appreciate the work he put into Bayo after the game's release, but I feel like the ideas he had for her were too grand for a smaller development team. I think he needed more time and a bigger team to balance her out in a way that would be more fair.

 

[Untouch]

I don't think the combos are the problem, its how high they go. Being able to use 3 witch twists in a row is pretty asinine. Maybe each consecutive WT does less damage and knockback before she hits the ground?

 

[Deleted member]

Rainbow Ride (Been in every game since it first showed up, not reason to drop it now)

Rainbow Cruise/Ride is absent from both versions of Smash 4.

 

[Pyra]

But that's the thing, why would you want to appeal to the people who keep booing you constantly? It's a ****ty thing to do for the game's final EVO run, but why would you respect people who refuse to respect you? I can guarantee that had Bayonetta not been booed constantly, this wouldn't have happened

I can understand the fact that during the moment it was probably pretty funny (to a lot of people, but pretty obviously not to a lot of others). I also agree with the fact that they worked super hard to get to that point, and even I probably woulda done something to spite the audience.

But I would have done it after the game because maaaaan that was ****ty tbh
Like, imagine if they had simultaneously got up and flipped everyone off for the last time hahaha. Something, just save it for the end.

And as for the audience booing them for using Bayo, like yeah. I get it. I think their use of Bayo is justified, and not really surprising nor upsetting (if pretty boring, conceptually) and the booing was just a bunch of people being bitter about it. But, it is a live audience, and those probably boo things they don't like lol.

it was just all around kind of a garbage situation and I'm kinda bitter I picked it to be the first (real) tournament I watched, but the other matches during that tournament were hype. Some of the previous Bayo dittos had hype moments, but not nearly as fun to watch as like, MVD v Raito or Nietono v Mistake

idunno man. I mean I can see why some people would be defending it but that doesn't really make it something that should have happened imo

This is without addressing how subdivisions of this community seem almost directly slighted by that, but I can't speak for anyone and can just present my personal view on it.

What the two players did is arguably collusion at worst and insanely tone deaf at best.

I like this summary of it

 

[MSmariosonic]

And stages I have doubts for but hope will return

• Metal Mario's stage
• Sector Z and Planet Zebes
• Mushroomy Kingdom Underground Var
• Pokefloats
• Mute City (both versions)
• Orbital Gate

You forgot Rumble Falls.

Everyone always forgets Rumble Falls.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

I’m SERIOUSLY starving for a newcomer reveal, but I honestly think Nintendo will have us wait until September at this point.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Oh! forgot Rainbow Road from 3DS.

It's on the doubt thanks to the MK8 stage returning

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

Oh! forgot Rainbow Road from 3DS.

It's on the doubt thanks to the MK8 stage returning

I hope it does return as it’s the most unique MK stage in smash.

 

[Pyra]

Well, we ARE getting a blog update tonight. Whether or not it'll be interesting is up for debate, though

 

[monadoboy]

Wow. Checking this thread I'm reaaally glad I stopped following competitive Smash 4.

Anyway, what big games had EVO reveals? And when are they usually done? I'm not convinced there's even a small chance of an EVO reveal tbh

 

[Deleted member]

Well, we ARE getting a blog update tonight. Whether or not it'll be interesting is up for debate, though

#63: Bayonetta

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It'll probably be something like

"It's Luigi! His nose is funny. WATCH THE VIDEO AGAIN!"

 

[Pyra]

#63: Bayonetta

That would be pretty damn funny hahaha

 

[BeardyBennett]

#63: Bayonetta

Boooooooooooooooo

 

[MSmariosonic]

#63: Bayonetta

And with that you've become one of my favorite users on this thread.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Rainbow Road should be THE Mario Kart stage in Smash. It's probably the most famous Mario Kart course, so it should always have a place in repping Mario Kart in Smash.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

#63: Bayonetta

To be fair, they did already show Rodin.

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

#63: Bayonetta

I seriously wouldn’t be able to stop laughing.