Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Danpal65]

Pikachu - Face of the Series as a Whole
Charizard & Mewtwo - Face of the Original Games
Lucario (& Greninja) - Face of the Newer Games

Also,
Pichu - Face of the baby Pokémon mechanic.

Jigglypuff - Face of the anime.
Pokemon Trainer - Face of the player.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That's what White Pikmin is for.

Hardly a playstyle when it only applies to one attack (Pikmin Toss) and only one fifth of the time.

 

[SquashiniKun]

No announcements, as to be expected.

So maybe we can expect one after EVO?

 

[Idon]

Pikachu - Face of the Series as a Whole
Charizard & Mewtwo - Face of the Original Games
Lucario (& Greninja) - Face of the Newer Games

Also,
Pichu - Face of the baby Pokémon mechanic.

Y'know, if you try hard enough, any pokemon can be the "face" of any mechanic.

 

[Danpal65]

So maybe we can expect one after EVO?

Well I mean any announcement at this stage will probably be after EVO

But, yeah I'm not really expecting anything tied to EVO for an announcement for Smash Ultimate.

 

[osby]

The day Bayo busted out her strangely exponential playstyle and strengths that made her play beyond the confinements and rules set by Smash, was more or less going to breed on this type of mindset and disrespect we saw in the tournament.

Bayonetta made Smash 4 and the whole cast look like a joke. So it the end, it became treated as such.

People booed players for playing as a legal character and got what they deserved.

We are talking about Smash, it was never a super serious game to begin with.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

People booed players for playing as a legal character and got what they deserved.

We are talking about Smash, it was never a super serious game to begin with.

This is incredibly tone deaf. You don't get to tell people that work and practice 8-9 hrs a day that the game was "never a super serious game to begin with." That's disrespectful af no matter how casually you play the game.

Booing is something I don't condone, but you absolutely do not get to downplay that situation.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I'm just going to share my little prediction: after the Melee Finals Nintendo will announce that Fountain of Dreams is back in Ultimate.
IDK, that is the only announcment that I can kinda see be done at EVO, especially since all the other Legal Stages from Melee are already in Ultimate.

 

[Cosmic77]

While I'd never condone booing, those who did aren't wrong for doing so.

A little late, but as others have already stated, playing with Bayonetta wasn't the problem. She's a good character, and naturally, people want to choose the best characters so they have a better chance of winning. Nothing wrong with that. The real problem was the attitude. When people play in professional sports, they take the game seriously, give it their all, and do their best to demonstrate fair and respectable sportsmanship. What we saw at EVO was abhorrent, and despite Nintendo/Sakurai's efforts to make Ultimate more appealing to the competitive community, this is a problem they'll never be able to fix themselves. It's up to the Smash fanbase to make these changes, and sadly, I doubt it'll ever come to that.

 

[KMDP]

I'm just going to share my little prediction: after the Melee Finals Nintendo will announce that Fountain of Dreams is back in Ultimate.
IDK, that is the only announcment that I can kinda see be done at EVO, especially since all the other Legal Stages from Melee are already in Ultimate.

Speaking of Legal Stages, I was wondering what the Legal Stage list will look like for Ultimate.
So... here's what it might look like:

Arena Ferox (Hazards off)​

Battlefield​

Brinstar (maybe, if turning off hazards removes the Acid)​

Castle Siege (assuming turning off hazards turns off the stage transitions)​

Dream Land 64​

Final Destination​

Fountain of Dreams (if it's in)​

Frigate Orpheon (Hazards off)​

Lylat Cruise​

Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazards off)​

Pokémon Stadium (either with or without Hazards?)​

Pokémon Stadium 2 (Hazards off)​

Smashville​

Town and City​

Yoshi's Island Brawl​

Yoshi's Story​

Wily Castle (Hazards off)​

Obviously the list isn't perfect and is probably including or not including stages that should (not) be on there.

But it's a pretty good selection, really; many more options than any other Smash Game.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Speaking of Legal Stages, I was wondering what the Legal Stage list will look like for Ultimate.
So... here's what it might look like:

Arena Ferox (Hazards off)​

Battlefield​

Brinstar (maybe, if turning off hazards removes the Acid)​

Castle Siege (assuming turning off hazards turns off the stage transitions)​

Dream Land 64​

Final Destination​

Fountain of Dreams (if it's in)​

Frigate Orpheon (Hazards off)​

Lylat Cruise​

Mushroom Kingdom U (Hazards off)​

Pokémon Stadium (either with or without Hazards?)​

Pokémon Stadium 2 (Hazards off)​

Smashville​

Town and City​

Yoshi's Island Brawl​

Yoshi's Story​

Wily Castle (Hazards off)​

Obviously the list isn't perfect and is probably including or not including stages that should (not) be on there.

But it's a pretty good selection, really; many more options than any other Smash Game.

I suppose that almost every single stage could be Legal with the Hazard Toggle. We have yet to see the extent of it.

Also every stage also have a Battelfield form, which is Legal by deafult. This means that Ultimate will already have the best selection for Legal Stages.

 

[Zinith]

I suppose that almost every single stage could be Legal with the Hazard Toggle. We have yet to see the extent of it.

Also every stage also have a Battelfield form, which is Legal by deafult. This means that Ultimate will already have the best selection for Legal Stages.

I would assume that walk off stages and autoscrolling stages will still be banned.

 

[KMDP]

I suppose that almost every single stage could be Legal with the Hazard Toggle. We have yet to see the extent of it.

Also every stage also have a Battelfield form, which is Legal by deafult. This means that Ultimate will already have the best selection for Legal Stages.

Well, some stages aren't legal for reasons that don't include hazards (i.e. any stage with walk-off blast lines or caves of life, or scrolling stages).

 

[MSmariosonic]

Ultimate is going to have so SO much darn content now that I think about it.

It truly is the ultimate multiplayer experience.

 

[BeardyBennett]

While I'd never condone booing, those who did aren't wrong for doing so.

A little late, but as others have already stated, playing with Bayonetta wasn't the problem. She's a good character, and naturally, people want to choose the best characters so they have a better chance of winning. Nothing wrong with that. The real problem was the attitude. When people play in professional sports, they take the game seriously, give it their all, and do their best to demonstrate fair and respectable sportsmanship. What we saw at EVO was abhorrent, and if despite Nintendo/Sakurai's efforts to make Ultimate more appealing to the competitive community, this is a problem they'll never be able to fix themselves. It's up to the Smash fanbase to make these changes, and sadly, I doubt it'll ever come to that.

I'm confused, is the issue booing someone for using Bayo? Honestly, I'm torn on the issue. It's ****ty to boo someone for a character pick, especially if they might just really like Bayo as a character or like her games (Bayo 2 is one of my top-25 favorite of all-time).

However, as an avid sports fan, booing is something that comes with spectator competition. It shows how passionate and invested people are in said event (which is actually a good thing for the scene and shows that passion to devs). It's not like people were hurling insults or, in the case of some of american football fans, whipping batteries at the competitors. It was booing, which is a pretty tame way of showing dislike.

I'm torn on the issue, and also I haven't seen what actually happened. So I can't speak too much to it. If it's booing over character choice, hell Bayo mains should lean into it like any good competitive fighting game scene heel (or sports heels like my Oakland Raiders, the Yankees, the Warriors, etc). Let their anger and ire fuel you and make you a better competitor. Just my two cents on the issue.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ultimate is going to have so SO much darn content now that I think about it.

It truly is the ultimate multiplayer experience.

All it needs to do is make sure 100%-ing the single player isn't a slog and it may be the best Smash.

(Stupid stickers and stupid CDs and stupid gosh-darn double drops on custom moves)

 

[KMDP]

I'm confused, is the issue booing someone for using Bayo? Honestly, I'm torn on the issue. It's ****ty to boo someone for a character pick, especially if they might just really like Bayo as a character or like her games (Bayo 2 is one of my top-25 favorite of all-time).

However, as an avid sports fan, booing is something that comes with spectator competition. It shows how passionate and invested people are in said event (which is actually a good thing for the scene and shows that passion to devs). It's not like people were hurling insults or, in the case of some of american football fans, whipping batteries at the competitors. It was booing, which is a pretty tame way of showing dislike.

I'm torn on the issue, and also I haven't seen what actually happened. So I can't speak too much to it. If it's booing over character choice, hell Bayo mains should lean into it like any good competitive fighting game scene heel (or sports heels like my Oakland Raiders, the Yankees, the Warriors, etc). Let their anger and ire fuel you and make you a better competitor. Just my two cents on the issue.

I think the issue stems from the fact that, because eSports aren't seen as a legitimate spectator competition, booing during them doesn't necessarily show passion and investment like it should, but has a perceived childishness to it instead (even though they are basically the same thing).

 

[Nonno Umby]

Well, some stages aren't legal for reasons that don't include hazards (i.e. any stage with walk-off blast lines or caves of life, or scrolling stages).

I would assume that walk off stages and autoscrolling stages will still be banned.

Oh yeah, I forgot about those ones. In my defense I rarely focus my attention on Legal Stages, and one of my most wanted stages to come back is Hanenbow. I've always considered myself as a "competitive casual", which is why I really hope that there will be a 1vs1 For Fun in Ultimate. That would be my ideal playstyle.

 

[Deleted member]

I would assume that walk off stages and autoscrolling stages will still be banned.

Also overly large stages, but if there's a universe where New Pork City is a legal stage outside of Gentleman's Clause, that's the universe I'd want to compete in.

 

[KMDP]

Oh yeah, I forgot about those ones. In my defense I rarely focus my attention on Legal Stages, and one of my most wanted stages to come back is Hanenbow. I've always considered myself as a "competitive casual", which is why I really hope that there will be a 1vs1 For Fun in Ultimate. That would be my ideal playstyle.

Yeah, I consider myself something like a "competitive casual" too.

For the record, back in the days of Brawl I was the only guy in my group who could even remotely handle Hanenbow.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the issue stems from the fact that, because eSports aren't seen as a legitimate spectator competition, booing during them doesn't necessarily show passion and investment like it should, but has a perceived childishness to it instead (even though they are basically the same thing).

There's also how bad it reflects on the Smash community, remember the time Zero one and people cheered that Melee could be played when he got the medal? And remember any other time people got booed for picking a character? Only time I can remember that is Mahvel 3 Pheonix and to my understanding that wasn't even around that long. People booed at Bayonetta at E3's Ultimate invitational too

 

[MSmariosonic]

I always had fun on the most absurd stages.

Have I mentioned I really want Rumble Falls back?

 

[Zinith]

Since we're up to about 85 stages now (and assuming we're getting more returning stages), do you think we'll get very few new ones? 85 seems quite large already...

 

[osby]

I always had fun on the most absurd stages.

Have I mentioned I really want Rumble Falls back?

I agree. What's fun about Smash if you can't fight on ridiculous stages?

 

[Deleted member]

Since we're up to about 85 stages now (and assuming we're getting more returning stages), do you think we'll get very few new ones? 85 seems quite large already...

Yeah, we likely won't get too many brand new stages. The existing stages have been remade, and that takes time. I'm betting that we'll only get new stages for the recent big games (like the already confirmed Odyssey and BotW stages) and for new characters that don't have stages for their series (like Moray Towers).

And R.O.B. will be forgotten yet again.

 

[Zinith]

Yeah, we likely won't get too many brand new stages. The existing stages have been remade, and that takes time. I'm betting that we'll only get new stages for the recent big games (like the already confirmed Odyssey and BotW stages) and for new characters that don't have stages for their series (like Moray Towers).

And R.O.B. will be forgotten yet again.

*sigh* R.O.B.

Still hoping for a Gyromite stage so that little boi doesn't feel left out

 

[Nonno Umby]

Since we're up to about 85 stages now (and assuming we're getting more returning stages), do you think we'll get very few new ones? 85 seems quite large already...

Of these 85 3 are confirmed as new: Mooray Towers, Tower of Origin and New Donk City.
Personally I think that most series won't get a new stage, especially for series like Earthbound, F-Zero, Fire Emblem... while most of the new stages will be reserved for newcomers (like if Elma is in I expect a stage based on XCX, same with Simon Belmont and the supposed Gen VII Pokémon).

 

[osby]

Yeah, we likely won't get too many brand new stages. The existing stages have been remade, and that takes time. I'm betting that we'll only get new stages for the recent big games (like the already confirmed Odyssey and BotW stages) and for new characters that don't have stages for their series (like Moray Towers).

And R.O.B. will be forgotten yet again.

If R.O.B. is considered as a real world toy, it makes sense he has no stage. He wasn't in his own games.
I wouldn't object him getting one but I get they never did until today.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

R.O.B'S stage will be the Great Maze. You get the entirety of the Great Maze as a stage and players can hide behind doors so you have to catch them. It's also a legal stage because of Nintendo's sponsorship and must be played during the finals every time

 

[KMDP]

There's also how bad it reflects on the Smash community, remember the time Zero one and people cheered that Melee could be played when he got the medal? And remember any other time people got booed for picking a character? Only time I can remember that is Mahvel 3 Pheonix and to my understanding that wasn't even around that long. People booed at Bayonetta at E3's Ultimate invitational too

Well, no, I don't remember, because I don't usually engage in the competitive scene. That aside I get what you mean.

The thing about Booing a character choice in a competitive game is that... let's compare it to something like, say, Formula One or NASCAR, and then sports.

Picking the (extremely) dominant character would be like if a racer opened up their car and showed the audience that their car has, or lacks, parts that while not illegal to have/not have, are frowned upon.

Or if a Football/Baseball/Soccer/Basketball player came up to the Mic pre-game and told the audience they were using a performance enhancing drug (one that is legal, for the sake of the argument).

You know the audience would boo them. XD Even if the rules say the competitor is not in the wrong.

One of the benefits of Competitive Gaming is that most of the players tools are either immediately visible (the character they use) or the same as everyone else (controllers); the players' skill notwithstanding.

Of course, I'm probably just rambling, and what I just said makes for a bad analogy. *shrug*

 

[BeardyBennett]

I think the issue stems from the fact that, because eSports aren't seen as a legitimate spectator competition, booing during them doesn't necessarily show passion and investment like it should, but has a perceived childishness to it instead (even though they are basically the same thing).

Which is still odd to me that that gets called "childish" while people live to riot and destroy property in their town when their teams win or lose events (more prominent with soccer internationally, but Vancouver is famous for Canucks riots and car burnings). Que sera sera.

I think I might actually like that people are booing. Again, if that's all it is (no offensive chants or insults, physical harm) then I think it shows passion and devotion. For me at least, personally, it kind of legitimizes the competitive spirit. It also, like sports, helps to build storylines that people can connect with.

That's a major draw to sports, having heroes and villains. Where would baseball be without the Yankees? American football without the Cowboys, Patriots, and Raiders? They are the villains, the teams people love to hate and root against. There are some people in Smash I will always root against. I root against ZeRo in every single game he plays, and that draws me to watch every single game he plays. I'm rooting for and hoping for the dominate villain to be thwarted. I also root against Bayo, Cloud, Fox, and Martha. Those villains helped to draw me into SM4SH's competitive scene, just like rooting against the Patriots, the Penguins, and LeBron James drew me into sports.

However, I know its definitely got its cons and negative implications as well. It's a double-edged sword in my book.

 

[Jetsurge]

Guys I figured it out! The new Pokemon rep will not be a Pokemon, it will be the Masked Royale! Maybe we'll finally find out his identity

 

[Deleted member]

If R.O.B. is considered as a real world toy, it makes sense he has no stage. He wasn't in his own games.
I wouldn't object him getting one but I get they never did until today.

This works as an explanation, but this is the real reason sense Subspace is canon:

That's because Sakurai is a cruel god, R.O.B. isn't allowed to have a home stage since his homeland and the rest of his people have been destroyed, this is his eternal punishment for letting it happen.

 

[Zinith]

If R.O.B. is considered as a real world toy, it makes sense he has no stage. He wasn't in his own games.
I wouldn't object him getting one but I get they never did until today.

R.O.B. may be a real world toy, but he still has games associated with him (albeit only 2)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, no, I don't remember, because I don't usually engage in the competitive scene. That aside I get what you mean.

The thing about Booing a character choice in a competitive game is that... let's compare it to something like, say, Formula One or NASCAR, and then sports.

Picking the (extremely) dominant character would be like if a racer opened up their car and showed the audience that their car has, or lacks, parts that while not illegal to have/not have, are frowned upon.

Or if a Football/Baseball/Soccer/Basketball player came up to the Mic pre-game and told the audience they were using a performance enhancing drug (one that is legal, for the sake of the argument).

You know the audience would boo them. XD Even if the rules say the competitor is not in the wrong.

One of the benefits of Competitive Gaming is that most of the players tools are either immediately visible (the character they use) or the same as everyone else (controllers); the players' skill notwithstanding.

Of course, I'm probably just rambling, and what I just said makes is a bad analogy. *shrug*

Still, the notion a perfectly legal character can get you booed is very discouraging and outright gatekeeping even. "Hey man, join our scene, we want Smash to be taken seriously. Also we'll boo you immensely every time you pick a legal character. We want to be taken VERY seriously"

 

[Cosmic77]

People booed at Bayonetta at E3's Ultimate invitational too

To be fair, Bayonetta was beating up my boy Ridley with her dumb Bayo-ish moves.

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.

 

[osby]

To be fair, Bayonetta was beating up my boy Ridley with her dumb Bayo-ish moves.

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.

That's why I don't take competitive Smash seriously.

EDIT: But yeah, that part make me like Bayonetta even more.

 

[KMDP]

Guys I figured it out! The new Pokemon rep will not be a Pokemon, it will be the Masked Royale! Maybe we'll finally find out his identity

Who is that Masked Man?

I know! It's Hong-Kong Phooey!

Which is still odd to me that that gets called "childish" while people live to riot and destroy property in their town when their teams win or lose events (more prominent with soccer internationally, but Vancouver is famous for Canucks riots and car burnings). Que sera sera.

I think I might actually like that people are booing. Again, if that's all it is (no offensive chants or insults, physical harm) then I think it shows passion and devotion. For me at least, personally, it kind of legitimizes the competitive spirit. It also, like sports, helps to build storylines that people can connect with.

That's a major draw to sports, having heroes and villains. Where would baseball be without the Yankees? American football without the Cowboys, Patriots, and Raiders? They are the villains, the teams people love to hate and root against. There are some people in Smash I will always root against. I root against ZeRo in every single game he plays, and that draws me to watch every single game he plays. I'm rooting for and hoping for the dominate villain to be thwarted. I also root against Bayo, Cloud, Fox, and Martha. Those villains helped to draw me into SM4SH's competitive scene, just like rooting against the Patriots, the Penguins, and LeBron James drew me into sports.

However, I know its definitely got its cons and negative implications as well. It's a double-edged sword in my book.

I think you forgot "Basketball without the Harlem Globetrotters?".

You make a good point, though.

Still, the notion a perfectly legal character can get you booed is very discouraging and outright gatekeeping even. "Hey man, join our scene, we want Smash to be taken seriously. Also we'll boo you immensely every time you pick a legal character. We want to be taken VERY seriously"

The fact that players are basically forced to show the audience "hey, I'm playing to win, even if it's frowned upon", is both a blessing and a curse.

 

[Krysco]

Wow, me working last night actually turned out in my favour. I only read this thread during breaks at work and so I got to see the thread locked up and I immediately knew something big happened. Could've ended up completely oblivious to this and only noticed it months later whenever I catch up to this point. All for the stricter focus on rules being followed~

As for my thoughts on the issue, what Lima and Zach (Zack?) did was pretty bad and many others have already pointed out the reasons why. It'd be like doing an upwards, friendly pitch in a competitive baseball match because the batter is your best friend. That all being said, I felt admittedly giddy after watching what happened.

To make this post have some focus on SSBU, if Bayo or honestly ANY character is as ridiculous as Sm4sh Bayo was, I hope the competitive community actually bans them and I'm generally against bans. Some people play a character that happens to be top tier just because they genuinely like the character for who they are and/or for how they play and I wouldn't want to take that away from someone. Wouldn't want it to happen to me. But the Smash competitive community is very odd with their bans.

Custom Miis get banned super quickly without even a second thought even though they aren't broken (possibly debatable on Small Brawler with certain up specials but that's the only exception) and don't take long to set up, stages get banned even if they're perfectly fine (Delfino in Brawl, almost Lylat in Sm4sh) and yet characters are this holy ground that can't be touched with bans. Brawl MK should've been banned way earlier than when he was. Same goes for Sm4sh Cloud in doubles. Sm4sh Bayo IS admittedly debatable but it's very clear that she's above the rest of the cast in terms of viability and unlike Melee Fox, she doesn't even seem to have many, if any 50/50 MUs.

This is all a big if though. Ultimate will presumably get patches and not be ditched so quick since it's on a successful console and plus the dev team can look back at Sm4sh and see what worked and didn't work. And there will of course be top tiers and low tiers and the balance won't be super perfect or whatever. But if a character is truly overpowered, they should be banned rather than hoping for a miracle patch. If the dev team bothers to pay attention to the competitive scene (which Sm4sh's patches prove they do) then they'll know to deal swift and necessary nerfs to a character if they get banned and only AFTER the nerfs should the character be reallowed into the competitive scene. And this is if no counterplay can be found first towards such a character.

 

[osby]

R.O.B. may be a real world toy, but he still has games associated with him (albeit only 2)

Sure but he wasn't IN those games. They aren't really his home.
Though, even if I don't like the games, a stage inspired from them might soften the trauma R.O.B. experienced.