Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

Two people taking the game seriously and treating the EVO Grand Finals with the amount of respect it deserves.

That's all I wanted.

Seagull Joe put it best:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And this Reddit comment expands on it well:

This was hilarious, tbh.
Best Smash tournament for me.

 

[Mutsukki]

This literally surpasses even the worst case scenario for the last Smash 4 tournament at EVO. Wow. I would never say this like, one, two years ago, but I'm kinda glad this game's gonna die naturally like it should

 

[Pakky]

Bayonetta's a lot like Landorus-Therian.

Not strong enough to be banned out of OU, but you groan whenever you see it on another team and wish it was.

Smogon is a joke, ban the sword spare the lion, jeez.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Let me spell out why them not taking it seriously is really upsetting and why playing Bayonetta isn't. Playing top tier in the end is playing to win, and while I have a lot I could say about why Bayonetta is what she is and how things could be different, at the end of the day it is what it is and you have to respect competitors doing what it takes to win.

What's not cool is getting to grand finals in a supermajor like EVO, crushing the hopes and dreams of so many along the way to propel yourself to the top, and then you treat the match like a joke. With the amount of money different between first and second I can't believe they were goofing off just because they're friends or to troll the crowd booing Bayonetta either; they're obviously splitting which is collusion and probably against the tournament rules (if it isn't, it should be) but also impossible to prove. There are so many just huge problems with this. It's incredibly disrespectful to everyone you beat to get there; we all saw how hard Nietono was visibly trying to overcome the wall of nonsense, and then as soon as he's defeated despite his best efforts everything is a joke? He wanted it badly, and the least you can do if you're the guy to take it away from him is give it your best from then on out. The second is that when the top players don't respect the spirit of competition you undermine the whole tournament. Like really, what are people watching that supposed to think? Smash isn't a real esport; it's as fake as pro wrestling and just a joke and there's no reason to care about it? When people ask why Smash isn't taken as seriously among the broader competitive gaming scene as other fighters, don't even try to talk about game mechanics or anything Nintendo ever did. It's this. It's this right here, and it's horribly toxic. I haven't been following the competitive scene for the past year or so either so I don't know how much that has been happening recently, but probably the main reason I quit smash 4 was because I saw just too much bad behavior from the community so this isn't encouraging at all to come back and see.

What is terrifying about this is that Smash Ultimate's release does nothing to really fix this sort of thing. What hope do we even have as a competitive community if those at the top aren't even making a good faith effort to compete? I have no answers, but just thinking about the question legitimately depresses me. I'm completely cool with smash 4 going out on a Bayonetta mirror, but I'm so ridiculously not cool at all with it ending like this because this level of nonsense is our starting point for Smash Ultimate and honestly makes it embarrassing when I tell people I'm a part of the smash community.

 

[Pyra]

To explain, my comment was made before grand finals.

Holy **** that went awful fast.

I didn’t know if it was even pointed at me or not, but my response was also before I knew about what happened. This is all just a steaming mess lol

Like, I went from just “I’m just bored now” to “this is irritating” real quick

 

[RandomAce]

Goes back to watching Smash 4 finals.

Sees finals match up:

I knew this was going to happen. There wasn’t much to look forward to when almost every big player is moving into Smash Ultimate.

Firstly, there weren’t any BIG players to keep these finals hype. Zero, Nairo, ESAM, Salem, MKLeo, Ally, Dabuz, Abadango, Larry Lurr, they’re all absent despite them being at the EVO convention? Why? Because Smash Ultimate was there and it was the most hype at thing right now. Almost all the big players went to EVO to play it.

Secondly, the matchups. These finals had 3 Bayonettas and 2 Diddy Kong’s. Yes we also had Lucina and Duck Hunt, but when people were hoping for DIDDY KONG to win even though he’s always been considered a top tier character people were annoyed with, there’s a problem. 3 Bayos were in Top 4, with BAYONETTA DITTOS for FINALS.

And lastly, the mood. To be honest, it didn’t feel fierce at all. With all the big players gone, and how bad the character distribution was, the overall vibe was just hollow. It may have been for the first couple of matches but at semi finals, no one cared. Heck even at finals the commentators just gave up and were goofing off while the final players weren’t taking it seriously either and we’re goofing around with the matches and sets as well. It was just a friendly match until they were told to be more serious by the organizers, but at that point it didn’t matter.

Smash 4 is officialy dead, and it’s unfortunate that it ended that way, with the lack of big players, the goofy mood, lack of interest, terrible character distribution, it’s obvious that Smash 4 ran it’s prime and is passing that torch to Ultimate.

Ultimate so far is looking the best any Smash game has ever been, and it’s looking to be an extremely exciting year for us when this game releases and includes the characters we want, our old favorites back in a gameplay style that is innovative and fresh, as well as the big support from the pros and the battle between Zero and SonicFox, get ready, it’s going to be a wild ride.

 

[Shroob]

Smogon is a joke, ban the sword spare the lion, jeez.

Sorry, I'd rather have actual balanced tiers than staring down Toxic+Sub+Kings Shield Aegislash or Genesect/Naganadel every game.
It's not perfect, but it's more balanced than Gamefreak will ever be.

 

[Pyra]

Let me spell out why them not taking it seriously is really upsetting and why playing Bayonetta isn't. Playing top tier in the end is playing to win, and while I have a lot I could say about why Bayonetta is what she is and how things could be different, at the end of the day it is what it is and you have to respect competitors doing what it takes to win.

What's not cool is getting to grand finals in a supermajor like EVO, crushing the hopes and dreams of so many along the way to propel yourself to the top, and then you treat the match like a joke. With the amount of money different between first and second I can't believe they were goofing off just because they're friends or to troll the crowd booing Bayonetta either; they're obviously splitting which is collusion and probably against the tournament rules (if it isn't, it should be) but also impossible to prove. There are so many just huge problems with this. It's incredibly disrespectful to everyone you beat to get there; we all saw how hard Nietono was visibly trying to overcome the wall of nonsense, and then as soon as he's defeated despite his best efforts everything is a joke? He wanted it badly, and the least you can do if you're the guy to take it away from him is give it your best from then on out. The second is that when the top players don't respect the spirit of competition you undermine the whole tournament. Like really, what are people watching that supposed to think? Smash isn't a real esport; it's as fake as pro wrestling and just a joke and there's no reason to care about it? When people ask why Smash isn't taken as seriously among the broader competitive gaming scene as other fighters, don't even try to talk about game mechanics or anything Nintendo ever did. It's this. It's this right here, and it's horribly toxic. I haven't been following the competitive scene for the past year or so either so I don't know how much that has been happening recently, but probably the main reason I quit smash 4 was because I saw just too much bad behavior from the community so this isn't encouraging at all to come back and see.

What is terrifying about this is that Smash Ultimate's release does nothing to really fix this sort of thing. What hope do we even have as a competitive community if those at the top aren't even making a good faith effort to compete? I have no answers, but just thinking about the question legitimately depresses me. I'm completely cool with smash 4 going out on a Bayonetta mirror, but I'm so ridiculously not cool at all with it ending like this because this level of nonsense is our starting point for Smash Ultimate and honestly makes it embarrassing when I tell people I'm a part of the smash community.

Thank you. That was very well put my dude.

 

[KMDP]

Ban Genies.
Nerf Witches.
Not my witch.

Nerf Witches over 8 heads tall.

Fortunately Ashley's only, like, 4 heads tall.

 

[Idon]

Remember VGC rules just result in 8 guys with near identical teams every single time.

 

[Will]

Speaking of Ashley was this hunk of fake ever shown off in this thread?

Spoiler

I get that the effort is now being made for actual pictures of fake leaks, but people need to learn a thing or two about how to make your blatantly obvious 2D painting look like a legitimate, passable CSS of a 3D Model.

 

[Zinith]

*crosses fingers for Smash Ultimate to not have a similar dumpster fire for a meta*

 

[blazefan519]

Speaking of Ashley was this hunk of fake ever shown off in this thread?

Spoiler

I get that the effort is now being made for actual pictures of fake leaks, but people need to learn a thing or two about how to make your blatantly obvious 2D painting look like a legitimate, passable CSS of a 3D Model.

Yes that was shown off here and we all considered it fake lol

 

[Noipoi]

Speaking of Ashley was this hunk of fake ever shown off in this thread?

Spoiler

I get that the effort is now being made for actual pictures of fake leaks, but people need to learn a thing or two about how to make your blatantly obvious 2D painting look like a legitimate, passable CSS of a 3D Model.

I want to belie-Actually no, that's just bad.
I can believe in Ashley without lowering my standards.

 

[AreJay25]

Just a reminder that Sakurai said that he saw bugs during the invitational.

 

[Shroob]

Just a reminder that Sakurai said that he saw bugs during the invitational.

Hell, we saw bugs during the "EVERYONE IS HERE" trailer and during Falco's trailer.

Falco's trailer had hitboxes turned on, and one of the Koopalings lost their head in the former.

 

[Pakky]

Sorry, I'd rather have actual balanced tiers than staring down Toxic+Sub+Kings Shield Aegislash or Genesect/Naganadel every game.
It's not perfect, but it's more balanced than Gamefreak will ever be.

Aegisslash is an asset, a value to be sure. Though that becomes trivial when STAB EQ is common, and even so with US/UM Lando can do... everything which is baffling because as stacked as the aforementioned are they have glaring weaknesses that are abundant in the meta today; even though they are powerful they can't do EVERYTHING. Some a few and some a lot but not they can't perform multiple key jobs on a team its just, I, I don't know how we got here.

Defog is the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Mutsukki]

Just a reminder that Sakurai said that he saw bugs during the invitational.

???

That was Smash 4 though and definitely not a bug lmao

 

[PhantomShab]

*crosses fingers for Smash Ultimate to not have a similar dumpster fire for a meta*

Well if Sak's headshake of disappointment means anything at least the hairy giraffe woman won't be so busted this time lol

 

[RandomAce]

And also Amazing Ampharos , I agree. The state of which the finals at this EVO was horrendous, I’ve never seen something like this. However, it was due to the lack of interest of Smash 4. Smash 4 was already on a declining road, and Smash Ultimate just killed it at that point. Everyone’s point of interest was in that game, and why shouldn’t they be? With the extreme amount of love being put into the games by the creators, the fan base is also putting extreme amounts of love into the game as well by trying to play and learn as much from the game as possible from a DEMO.

I think Smash Ultimate is leading up to a healthier meta within the Smash community. The greater amounts of connections between the people making the game and the players is outstanding, and proves that they’re willing to make Ultimate the best it can be, and the love for Ultimate despite it not being released yet shows how much the players are willing to do to make Ultimate as best as it can be competitively.

Hopefully, the players will make sure that happen, which I have no doubt in my mind they will.

 

[Jetsurge]

If you guys are so disappointed, what would have you wanted Smash 4 to go out like?

Reggie getting his revenge on HungryBox in a rematch.

 

[Will]

*crosses fingers for Smash Ultimate to not have a similar dumpster fire for a meta*

Using RNG I shall randomly select a number and the selected fighter shall be the next SS Tier!

Honestly that's not a bad outcome for me.

 

[AreJay25]

???

That was Smash 4 though and definitely not a bug lmao

I wasn't talking about Smash 4.

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

If you guys are so disappointed, what would have you wanted Smash 4 to go out like?

Alright, so, the first 5 matches go exactly the way they did. Bayo vs. Bayo, just what everybody's expecting, hype dies down, people start to leave. Then, as the bracket resets, what's this? A character swap! Jack pulls out the and mops the floor with Lima in the next two matches. Lima responds with a panic swap in the third match, JV3'ing Jack, which leaves him so flustered that he loses the 4th match as well. Both players, their pride damaged, agree that the only way they can end things properly is to settle things like men and both swap to . Somehow, ESAM ends up winning.

Afterwards, Sakurai arrives on stage in full Ganondorf cosplay, and reveals 7 newcomers for Smash Brothers Ultimate, and that the game would be releasing as soon as Evo is over.

 

[Noipoi]

Here lies Smash 4.
Died with a whimper, not a bang.
Oct/Nov 2014- Aug 2018
Rip in peace.

 

[Zinith]

Using RNG I shall randomly select a number and the selected fighter shall be the next SS Tier.

Spoiler: The Results

View attachment 155742

Honestly that's not a bad outcome for me.

That randomizer would exclude and.

Also wouldn't mind a top tier Dr. Mario

 

[Shroob]

Aegisslash is an asset, a value to be sure. Though that becomes trivial when STAB EQ is common, and even so with US/UM Lando can do... everything which is baffling because as stacked as the aforementioned are they have glaring weaknesses that are abundant in the meta today; even though they are powerful they can't do EVERYTHING. Some a few and some a lot but not they can't perform multiple key jobs on a team its just, I, I don't know how we got here.

Defog is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Aegislash can basically 1v6 an entire team with its stall set, even in Ubers, and because Kings Shield is just fancy protect, even though there's not a high chance that spamming it will work, on the cases where it actually does work, you get punished due to bad rng more than bad predicting.

Aegislash is disgusting and deserves the Uber treatment.


Landorus strong and scary, but one Ice Beam usually drops it, maybe 2, and a Burn kills it outright.

 

[Glaciacott]

Firstly, there weren’t any BIG players to keep these finals hype. Zero, Nairo, ESAM, Salem, MKLeo, Ally, Dabuz, Abadango, Larry Lurr, they’re all absent despite them being at the EVO convention? Why? Because Smash Ultimate was there and it was the most hype at thing right now. Almost all the big players went to EVO to play it.

On the topic of strong players, I believe MKLeo missed it due to being sick, and then a bunch of the others you mention lost early on, such as Dabuz, Salem, Ally and Nairo. Not sure about the rest.

Just wanted to point it out since I don't think it's a planned conspiracy from top players to skip out on EVO of all things to go stand in line to play a demo.

 

[Will]

That randomizer would exclude and.

Also wouldn't mind a top tier Dr. Mario

Not really, Echoes are so similar to their counterparts they're pretty much the same tier, maybe sans one person due to knockback stuff.

 

[SmashingXan2]

So Sm4sh finals was a complete disaster and ended the game's life at a low point, so lets just ignore that. Have there been any reveals for any game in general yet, and is smash the only toxic tourney?

 

[Will]

So Sm4sh finals was a complete disaster and ended the game's life at a low point, so lets just ignore that. Have there been any reveals for any game in general yet, and is smash the only toxic tourney?

Every game has a toxic tourney.
It just so happened that Sm4sh had stunk the most.

 

[osby]

Here lies Smash 4.
Died with a whimper, not a bang.
Oct/Nov 2014- Aug 2018
Rip in peace.

So Smash For is like our Sun.

While Melee is a neutron star that refuses to die.

 

[perfectchaos83]

So Sm4sh finals was a complete disaster and ended the game's life at a low point, so lets just ignore that. Have there been any reveals for any game in general yet, and is smash the only toxic tourney?

Fighting Layer EX announced Terry Bogard as a guest and Blazblue announced the last 9 of the datamined DLC characters and a new franchise being added (Very Likely to be Senran Kagura)

 

[Will]

So Smash For is like our Sun.

While Melee is a neutron star that refuses to die.

I wonder if Melee will ever stagnate, or at least stagnate to a major degree. I still wanna know what discoveries could be made for the game. And what could suddenly happen to make another character jump to stardom from some crazy shenanigans.

 

[Shroob]

Fighting Layer EX announced Terry Bogard as a guest and Blazblue announced the rest of their DLC characters and a new franchise being added (Very Likely to be Senran Kagura)

>Senran Kagura

Oh no

 

[KMDP]

Using RNG I shall randomly select a number and the selected fighter shall be the next SS Tier!

View attachment 155742

Honestly that's not a bad outcome for me.

I'm okay with this. Dr. Mario is one of my mains.

 

[BlueMagician]

Have there been any reveals for any game in general yet

Fighter Layer got guest Terry Bogard, and SNK Heroines also got Terry Bogard.

 

[RandomAce]

On the topic of strong players, I believe MKLeo missed it due to being sick, and then a bunch of the others you mention lost early on, such as Dabuz, Salem, Ally and Nairo. Not sure about the rest.

Just wanted to point it out since I don't think it's a planned conspiracy from top players to skip out on EVO of all things to go stand in line to play a demo.

That’s true.

But the fact that they weren’t in the Top 8 despite that they were really good players showed a lack of enthusiasm, just a year ago the Bayo hate was strong and it was very hyped set with a lot of strong players going head to head. Now? None of these even showed up at the Top 8 this year. There was a huge sudden shift, and it’s clear that it’s due to the hype from Ultimate.

Since MKLeo was sick, I’m not sure what would’ve happened, but him not being there obviously didn’t boad well overall.

 

[Zinith]

I wonder if Melee will ever stagnate, or at least stagnate to a major degree. I still wanna know what discoveries could be made for the game. And what could suddenly happen to make another character jump to stardom from some crazy shenanigans.

That "jump to stardom" could only happen with a healthy meta that lasted for over a decade, which won't happen with Smash 4...

 

[KMDP]

>Senran Kagura

Oh no

Oh yes.