Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MoonlitIllusion]

Chrom's and Lucina's Falchion is bigger than Marth's and is supposed to be a two-handed sword like the Ragnell, it was just shrunk for Lucina in Smash so that she could function as a Marth alt/Echo without messing up hitboxes. As for what differences Chrom would have as an Echo, I imagine he would be a simple and dirty "faster but weaker" Ike Echo, Sakurai did originally imagine him for Smash 4 as an inbetween of Marth and Ike, so while he won't have his own moves or much differences he'll still play sorta like how Sakurai originally imagined him.

The "faster but weaker" idea is neat but isn't really how echoes work, as far as we know echoes don't have different stats and their playstyles are supposed to be virtually identical from the original character, making him faster but weaker would drastically change the way you're meant to play them.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

What are the 7-10 newcomers to the base roster that would make the game PERFECT for you, with the first being “I absolutely NEED them” and the last one being “I could live if they weren’t added but they’d be cool to see regardless”? Counting Echoes, not counting potential DLC candidates who were too late for the base roster (like Rex & Pyra or an ARMS character)

For me:

1. Elma
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Simon Belmont
4. Chorus Kids
5. Chrom
6. Dixie Kong
7. King K. Rool
8. Isabelle
9. Isaac
10. Lloyd Irving

1. Shantae
2. Rayman
3. Crash Bandicoot
4. Dixie Kong
5. King K. Rool
6. Bandana Waddle Dee
7. Banjo-Kazooie
8. Mona
9. Jason Frudnick
10. Shovel Knight

You know what I'm hoping for even more than any specific character newcomer? Someone who I didn't even know I wanted.

Before Smash for came along, I'd never played a Mega Man game before. I barely even knew the guy existed. But despite that, I the reveal trailer got me super pumped. It did such a good job at telling me what makes Mega Man such a cool fighter and why I should care about him. It lead me to buy Mega Man 2 on the virtual console and even clear it (admittedly with save states, I love difficulty but I'm not a self-punishing masochist). When the demo came out, I couldn't stop using him. Despite my old friends Link and Pikachu being there it was Mega Man who I couldn't stop myself from playing as.

It's the same with Bowser Jr. I like Mario, but I'm not a super devoted fan of it or anything. I never played Sunshine and couldn't give a darn if he made it in or not. But by slapping him in that Clown Kart they managed to make him a fighter that really stands out from the crowd, armt least conceptually. A lot of my early hours with the 3DS version were spent learning that character.

I'm waiting for Ultimate to do the same thing again - to get me hyped over a character I didn't expect nor care for.

I know, right. Before Melee, I at least heard of that silly Ice Climber game before, but the Ice Climbers' 3-D designs and moveset sold me. Especially the fact that they became ice users. The truest example of making something out of almost nothing, after Falcon.

Yoshi Kirby is the "cutest"... And most redundant.

That's not the most redundant, Dedede Kirby is.

 

[KMDP]

I have a confession

Spoiler

I'm not too keen on Kirby

You monster!

 

[Omega Tyrant]

For the ATs thing, excluding Pokeballs:

Punch Out: uhhhhh Doc Louis?

If we can't get Mike Tyson as a boss, I would settle for a Mike Tyson AT that throws out OHKO uppercuts, I don't care how broken and obnoxious it would be.

 

[KMDP]

If we can't get Mike Tyson as a boss, I would settle for a Mike Tyson AT that throws out OHKO uppercuts, I don't care how broken and obnoxious it would be.

You'll get Mr. Sandman and like it, young man!

 

[kylexv]

Today's fighter is

https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/blog/index.html?category=cat02_fighter_12

 

[UltimateWario]

"Meta" Ridley was a mistranslation. Smash 4/boss Ridley did the same "dark/armor" ability in Other M, and it had no specific name in game. The Japanese direct referred to it as Black Ridley, which obviously just like and Metal Face's JP name, were changed to avoid the obvious controversy.

What an unfortunate translation. I'd hazard you'd have to be really in the dark about Metroid to think that Meta Ridley is some sort of "Power-Up Form" for Ridley. I do wonder which one is meant to be more powerful, though. Proteus Ridley is very clearly the strongest and most aggressive we've ever seen him and he seems to be within moments of completely shedding his life support armor, so despite all of the new weapon systems and protection it gives him, he seems to be stronger in his own skin.

We need a Ridley Tier List.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

The "faster but weaker" idea is neat but isn't really how echoes work, as far as we know echoes don't have different stats and their playstyles are supposed to be virtually identical from the original character, making him faster but weaker would drastically change the way you're meant to play them.

I think an idea like Smash 4 Dr. Mario without the unique moves and differently-functioning moves would still be inline, or just his moves doing like 1-2% damage with a few less frames of endlag would still be inline. It wouldn't "drastically change" his playstyle, Smash 4 Dr. Mario moves a lot slower than Mario and his playstyle was pretty much the same even with the lack of FLUDD and some of his other functional differences, while this hypothetical Chrom Echo wouldn't get more different than that.

 

[Knight Dude]

Here's a tough question.

Sakurai stated in the E3 presentation that the more characters get added to the roster, the harder it becomes to make Kirby because of his copy ability.

So here's the question. Would you rather limit the roster and Kirby keeps his copy ability and it's cuteness...

Or would you rather Kirby have his copy ability replaced for the sake of the roster?

Keep in mind this a hypothetical where it comes down to only these two choices.

Limit the roster I guess. I think Kirby copying enemies, and the way he does so is iconic to the character.

 

[Chandeelure]

I have a confession

Spoiler

I'm not too keen on Kirby

Reported for terrorism.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about Echoes is while we were told they can't have different weights and generally the same stats, it's unclear if they can have faster/slower moves(as long as the animations are the same, that is). That's not a "general attribute". So Chrom having slower moves(or faster) probably would work, as long as the animations aren't generally different. Him having a different weight is another story.

Of course, maybe Bill Trinen has a poor understanding of Echoes, but Sakurai has yet to say "he's wrong" and explain it, so it's at least something official enough to go on. Besides that, them starting as 1:1 model proportions is kind of important. I say starting, as we know he can make small changes to the model as well during development, as proven by Lucina. However, maybe she simply was easier to make a different size because she already had a possible smaller model while her alt design was sized up, so he had a lot to work with to make her fast. Is she actually the only Echo at this time to have a different size?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I have a confession

Spoiler

I'm not too keen on Kirby

Yet you like a heartless monster like Yoshi

 

[Deleted member]

The thing about Echoes is while we were told they can't have different weights and generally the same stats, it's unclear if they can have faster/slower moves(as long as the animations are the same, that is). That's not a "general attribute". So Chrom having slower moves(or faster) probably would work, as long as the animations aren't generally different. Him having a different weight is another story.

Of course, maybe Bill Trinen has a poor understanding of Echoes, but Sakurai has yet to say "he's wrong" and explain it, so it's at least something official enough to go on. Besides that, them starting as 1:1 model proportions is kind of important. I say staring, as we know he can make small changes to the model as well during development, as proven by Lucina. However, maybe she simply was easier to make a different size because she already had a possible smaller model while her alt design was sized up, so he had a lot to work with to make her fast. Is she actually the only Echo at this time to have a different size?

Daisy appears to be shorter than Peach.

Yet you like a heartless monster like Yoshi

Yeah, at least Kirby does his taxes.

 

[Idon]

I think an idea like Smash 4 Dr. Mario without the unique moves and differently-functioning moves would still be inline, or just his moves doing like 1-2% damage with a few less frames of endlag would still be inline. It wouldn't "drastically change" his playstyle, Smash 4 Dr. Mario moves a lot slower than Mario and his playstyle was pretty much the same even with the lack of FLUDD and some of his other functional differences, while this hypothetical Chrom Echo wouldn't get more different than that.

Well then it wouldn't really be an echo, just really, more of a normal clone.

 

[KMDP]

Of course, maybe Bill Trinen has a poor understanding of Echoes, but Sakurai has yet to say "he's wrong" and explain it, so it's at least something official enough to go on.

I am 90% sure Bill Trinen has a poor understanding of Echoes, though his understanding is still more informed than ours. XD

 

[IsmaR]

On an unrelated note/fun fact, while I was looking up the old Direct, I found out that while Xander Mobus did the English 50 fact Extravaganza/Direct, Tomokazu Sugita who voiced both Chrom and Takamaru did the Japanese one.

 

[Will]

Sadly Goroh was cut down when he was revealed as his old role via the Demo Build itself.

Yeah, I think he was shown already. (Unfortunately)

Then I still have a chance.

 

[Dracyoshi]

Kirby's copy ability is so integral to Kirby's identity to the point where it's the first trait that I think of when I think of Kirby! It's also an extremely appealing part of Kirby's moveset to me.
I'd really hate to see it a go. A better idea is just to give Kirby a limited set of copy abilities based off of his actual copy abilities in the Kirby games. For example, inhaling any of the swordfighters would give Kirby the Sword ability!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I am 90% sure Bill Trinen has a poor understanding of Echoes, though his understanding is still more informed than ours. XD

As am I, but until we get better information, I'd consider him an official source.

Sakurai is obviously aware of the statement, and about the only thing Bill said that is clearly a bad point was the Megavitamins example, but so far we can't prove his other Echo points wrong.

Then I still have a chance.

Black Bull Punch!

...I could see him as a clone at this point. >.>

 

[NintenRob]

Unfortunately, Kirby seems to be reusing voice clips, so we might not be getting any new lines for him. Maybe none of the newcomers require speech.


Or maybe they're just adding new lines on top of old ones like they did during DLC.

 

[Noipoi]

Yoshi committed tax fraud.
Kirby goes to church every Sunday.
The choice is obvious.

 

[Zinith]

Yet you like a heartless monster like Yoshi

Spoiler

There's room in my heart for only one cute appetite based creature...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Daisy appears to be shorter than Peach.


Yeah, at least Kirby does his taxes.

Kirby is an honorable and respectful member of society

Spoiler

There's room in my heart for only one cute appetite based creature...

A creature whom commits tax frauds and eats people for no reason other than hunger

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

As am I, but until we get better information, I'd consider him an official source.

Sakurai is obviously aware of the statement, and about the only thing Bill said that is clearly a bad point was the Megavitamins example, but so far we can't prove his other Echo points wrong.


Black Bull Punch!

...I could see him as a clone at this point. >.>

I don't care as long as I get to ram at someone with the Black Bull at full speed.

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Yarn poochy

Spoiler: Poochy

 

[Dracyoshi]

Why not both?

Both Kirby and Yoshi are too adorable to pass up.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

You're not alone. Considering I have mostly 3rd party choices (who I really, really want but I know their chances are very, very slim), I know how you feel, it saddening when other characters are more likely than ours are, but the important thing is that the characters we like, are special to us, and that no matter how small, they still have a chance, Sakurai might surprise us.

It's weird for me though, because these here are 1st/2nd Party characters, which makes this even harder to swallow. And as far as I've experienced the Sm4sh-speculation era, I know when some things most likely points on certain elements or characters being relocated to same roles or not given consideration, in which where I can't really get my hopes unless clear signs start to point towards something hopeful for me about it.

But thanks.

 

[Zinith]

Why not both?

Both Kirby and Yoshi are too adorable to pass up.

I never said I hated Kirby, but he never influenced my life quite like Yoshi has...

 

[Will]

I'm sorry but that just looks like samus if she got a Cow Suit

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Well then it wouldn't really be an echo, just really, more of a normal clone.

Notice the "without unique moves or differently-functioning moves", a normal clone has extensive differences to their moveset and design, with indepth frame data and movement/physic specs differences, and several if not most moves functioning differently or having significantly altered knockback despite having the same animation. With Smash 4 Dr. Mario if you gave him FLUDD, had Pills function more like Fireballs, and had his fair function as a meteor and his u-smash send people vertically, he would have probably been inline for an Echo. They didn't even actually bother programming him unique movement specs and damage values (at least for the latter until some patches boosted the base damage on a few moves), they instead just literally slapped on a permanent inherent equipment effect to him of +15 Attack and -50 Speed, the same could feasibly happen for Chrom for a "simple and dirty faster but weaker Echo".

 

[KMDP]

You know, something I was thinking of earlier today.

Considering this is the Ultimate Super Smash Bros. (or the most Special, in Japan's case), something I'd like to see is, for the credits, rather than having a unique song (Smash 64, Melee and Brawl), or medley of Smash themes (Smash 4), have a medley of the Represented Series themes.

Something like the original Original Sonic Credits Themes.

I don't care how ridiculously long it is. XD
Got the idea from listening to "Kumikyoku Nico Nico Douga".

 

[Pakky]

I'm sorry but that just looks like samus if she got a Cow Suit

Hmmm

I know you're joking but maybe I went too simple, he ain't got too many features though.

 

[SquashiniKun]

You know, something I was thinking of earlier today.

Considering this is the Ultimate Super Smash Bros. (or the most Special, in Japan's case), something I'd like to see is, for the credits, rather than having a unique song (Smash 64, Melee and Brawl), or medley of Smash themes (Smash 4), have a medley of the Represented Series themes.

Something like the original Original Sonic Credits Themes.

I don't care how ridiculously long it is. XD
Got the idea from listening to "Kumikyoku Nico Nico Douga".

I'm wondering if they'll do something different for it, maybe it'll be a vocal song?

 

[Idon]

Notice the "without unique moves or differently-functioning moves", a normal clone has extensive differences to their moveset and design, with indepth frame data and movement/physic specs differences, and several if not most moves functioning differently or having significantly altered knockback despite having the same animation. With Smash 4 Dr. Mario if you gave him FLUDD, had Pills function more like Fireballs, and had his fair function as a meteor and his u-smash send people vertically, he would have probably been inline for an Echo, they didn't even actually bother programming him unique movement specs and damage values (at least for the latter until some patches boosted the base damage on a few moves), they instead just literally slapped on a permanent equipment effect on him of +15 Attack and -50 Speed, the same could feasibly happen for Chrom for a "simple and dirty faster but weaker Echo".

Well you're thinking echoes as some sort of scale of similarity when I don't think that's the case. Had Dr. Mario just been +15 attack and -50 speed Mario, I'm sure he still would've been considered a non-echo purely because that still drastically changes how he plays.

I believe the logic for Echoes seem to have the same base stats like speed, weight, and hitbox size with only the attacks having different properties. If you change even one of those core things, they'd play more differently and I don't think the echo label wouldn't be applied to him.

Course, we don't have a clear cut definition, but that's what Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy lead me to believe.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Okay but....Peach and Daisy Kirby is gonna be adorable now that Toad actually looks intimidating and ready to fight.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

..."New Villager" instead of Isabelle? No K.Rool? Master Hand playable?



...but it's got a terrible render of the Dragonborn, so I like it. This is minimally acceptable.

Fite me

Yeah, I know there's no chance. I just really really want him in.

There's no need to because I'd be super down for Dragonborn being in. I just don't think he'll appear any time soon.

 

[Starbound]

I love Xander Mobus but what if we could download character announcer packs. It would be so cute to have Kirby announce the winner, or if Mario said everyone's names after selection.

I don't know how it'd work for his like Yoshi or Jigglypuff, so I don't think it would work out for everyone. But it would be really cool!

 

[Knight Dude]

Then I still have a chance.

If Black Shadow makes it in, you think he can speak only in rhymes like Bullhorn from Black Dynamite?

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

What are the 7-10 newcomers to the base roster that would make the game PERFECT for you, with the first being “I absolutely NEED them” and the last one being “I could live if they weren’t added but they’d be cool to see regardless”? Counting Echoes, not counting potential DLC candidates who were too late for the base roster (like Rex & Pyra or an ARMS character)

For me:

1. Elma
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Simon Belmont
4. Chorus Kids
5. Chrom
6. Dixie Kong
7. King K. Rool
8. Isabelle
9. Isaac
10. Lloyd Irving

1. Isabelle (Non-Echo)
2. A Pokémon from Sun & Moon.
3. Bandana Waddle Dee
4. Paper Mario
5. Tap Trial Girl
6. Dixie Kong
7. King K. Rool
8. Dark Samus (Echo)
9. Octoling (Echo)
10. Geno

 

[KMDP]

I'm wondering if they'll do something different for it, maybe it'll be a vocal song?

Technically a vocal song wouldn't be "something different" because Brawl had a vocal song.

Although...

I'd settle for a song by JAM Project or something.