Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Impa4Smash]

Marth's style is canonically more of a fencer, or at the very least very "light" in his swordplay. Warriors and his Shadow Dragon animations reflect this. Chrom takes a much more rough style and throws his whole body into his swings and thrusts, almost like a very pointy football player.

Chrom fights more like Ike than Marth; unlike what Viridi was implying. He does in fact, have the ability to use Aether, even in the same way.

There's also a Lucina support (I forget who it's with) where the other character expresses how scared they are of her monstrous strength (if I remember right, they said something like she plowed her hand clean through a (wooden) wall by accident).

Yeah, we do. It's kinda a sticking point for their interactions in FE:W that they fight and act nothing alike.

And it's pretty safe to assume muscle-king Chrom fighting with a 2 handed broadsword version of the Falchion would fight differently from a guy with a different build, weapon style, and time period.

True. All good points. I guess I was trying to rationalize Lucina as a Marth echo. I suppose it's just best to look at it as a nod to her disguise in Awakening, like KMDP pointed out.

 

[KMDP]

Actually, Ike's Aether has Ike chuck the sword upwards, he leaps up to grab the sword, and then he descends with the sword. Once he lands, he performs a backflip swing as a second strike.

Chrom's Aether just sorta has him run forward and attack twice. They're not even remotely the same.

I'm fairly sure Chrom does Ike's Aether animation in a cutscene in Awakening. It's been a while since I played it, but someone's brought it up here (more than once, even). (Also, I'm aware of the differences between PoR/RD Ike's Aether and Chrom's Aether.)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

One more thing about Echo Fighters:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sakurai said, and I quote: "I'm hoping you aren't expecting too many Newcomers." We don't currently know how many "Too Many" is. For all we know, there'll be as many Newcomers as in Smash 4, with the same (or similar) Echo Fighter ratio.

The Echo Fighter amount may just end up being rather small; probably no more than 5 fighters.

 

[Zeox]

Imagine
>We don't get any news of any character for months
>People start to say that there will be no more characters
>November 30
>Suddenly a nintendo stream
>Sakurai appears and says that he is gonna show a bunch of new characters
>Everyone is here once again but full of new characters
>Over 40 new characters introductions, mimicking the one from the E3
>Everyone loses their head
>Etika dies
>Chaos
>Nintendo wins everything
>End of the world

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I was gunna quote a post but then realized it was several pages back and decided it wasn't worth bringing up that specific post but I do want to say that, speculation does not equal unappreciative/unsatisfied.

I feel like there's a lot of "wow you guys are desperate for info" on this and well...it's a general smash ultimate thread, it's basically for news and updates and sort of speculation so yeah that's what gets discussed. Just because I'm wondering who else is in the game or what else is in store doesn't mean I'm not super appreciative and excited for this game already. If anything I'm so glad Sakurai is putting all this and more in the game! (And if I'm wrong and there isn't more that's ok too)

Sorry I feel like this is my 10th post on this topic but I can't help but feel like I need to defend myself whenever someone on here says people should be less desperate and appreciate the game for what's already there. I do appreciate the game. (Also this is a business selling something they need to market and make appealing to the audience, it's not like Sakurai is my close friend and I should love him for being him, but I'm not gunna start Captalist propoganda lol).

 

[Opossum]

I'm fairly sure Chrom does Ike's Aether animation in a cutscene in Awakening. It's been a while since I played it, but someone's brought it up here (more than once, even). (Also, I'm aware of the differences between PoR/RD Ike's Aether and Chrom's Aether.)

For reference purposes, here:

 

[KMDP]

There's also a Lucina support (I forget who it's with) where the other character expresses how scared they are of her monstrous strength (if I remember right, they said something like she plowed her hand clean through a (wooden) wall by accident).

I was looking through Serenes Forest's Support archive for the Support I was referring to. I haven't found it yet, but I did find this:

In Lucina's Support with Owain, she briefly nicknames Falchion "Pointy Demonspanker". I had forgotten that.

For reference purposes, here:

Thanks.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I honestly don't think there's a single echo fighter that's more popular than Daisy.

Otherwise they would have picked someone else to introduce the concept.

Another reason I don't think characters like Isabelle, Shadow, etc, make sense.

Because they definitely have more popularity than her.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm fairly sure Chrom does Ike's Aether animation in a cutscene in Awakening. It's been a while since I played it, but someone's brought it up here (more than once, even). (Also, I'm aware of the differences between PoR/RD Ike's Aether and Chrom's Aether.)

Is this the animation you're referring to?

It's just a jumping, spinning sword attack.

Edit: 'd

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Where the hell is Jade coming from all of a sudden in all these leaks?

Nowhere to be seen before now.

A misguided attempt at applying the promotional character method to the most recent main installment of Dragon Quest? Probably because prior main entries generally have one particularly memorable female party member or so.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

For reference purposes, here:

Honestly that's close enough to Ike's Aether for me. Side B could be called Luna, Neutral B is Awakening, and Down B is still Counter.

If you want to semi clone him, have his Aether have less vertical but more horizontal recovery and have Side B slice through opponents. That's it.

 

[vaanrose]

View attachment 153381 Here you have Isabelle using the New Leaf design. Longer limbs, longer body.

View attachment 153382Here you have Villager using the pre-New Leaf design. Shorter limbs, shorter body.

No. They don't have a very similar appearance at all.

To make Isabelle an Echo Fighter. You have to create a whole new design for her that dates her back to the pre-New Leaf look for Animal Crossing villagers, thus getting rid of her own iconic look in the process.

She doesn't really fit as an Echo. Even if you squint. So if she's getting in? It's original or not at all.

Animation re-targeting works for characters with much more disparate skeletons than these two. Plus Daisy isn't 100% reskinned animations, anyway, aside from the obvious stuff like idles and taunts, even some of her attacks are tweaked to fit her better. So the animations don't even need to port perfectly, because they've shown they're quite willing to alter them.

All this really shows is she's better suited for Echo than Alt.

 

[SlickWylde]

Imagine
>We don't get any news of any character for months
>People start to say that there will be no more characters
>November 30
>Suddenly a nintendo stream
>Sakurai appears and says that he is gonna show a bunch of new characters
>Everyone is here once again but full of new characters
>Over 40 new characters introductions, mimicking the one from the E3
>Everyone loses their head
>Etika dies
>Chaos
>Nintendo wins everything
>End of the world

I would literally stop playing Smash Bros all together. I know most of you disagree, but the more characters there are, the harder it is to balance. 100 characters is too many.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Where the hell is Jade coming from all of a sudden in all these leaks?

Nowhere to be seen before now.

Who knows. Dragon Quest in general has been picking up some steam in "leak" mentions, similar to Heihachi.

 

[Pyra]

I would literally stop playing Smash Bros all together. I know most of you disagree, but the more characters there are, the harder it is to balance. 100 characters is too many.

I had loads of fun with Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 3

It would not be nearly as fun with Smash, I agree.

 

[Troykv]

I honestly don't think there's a single echo fighter that's more popular than Daisy.

Otherwise they would have picked someone else to introduce the concept.

Another reason I don't think characters like Isabelle, Shadow, etc, make sense.

Because they definitely have more popularity than her.

Well; that makes sense; Daisy is the most mainstream character of all the characters that their whole design says "Echo".

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Who knows. Dragon Quest in general has been picking up some steam in "leak" mentions, similar to Heihachi.

Though you'd think they'd pick a more logical prediction over the flavor of the month (which clearly wasn't the case for Final Fantasy).

 

[Cosmic77]

I honestly don't think there's a single echo fighter that's more popular than Daisy.

Otherwise they would have picked someone else to introduce the concept.

Another reason I don't think characters like Isabelle, Shadow, etc, make sense.

Because they definitely have more popularity than her.

Don't sell Daisy so short. She's been consistently appearing in Mario spin-offs for over two decades now. Even if it seems like she wasn't as highly requested as other potential Echoes, she's still an extremely iconic character from Nintendo's flagship franchise.

Choosing Daisy to help introduce Echoes makes perfect sense, not so much because of her popularity, but because of how many people would instantly recognize her.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Though you'd think they'd pick a more logical prediction over the flavor of the month (which clearly wasn't the case for Final Fantasy).

Dragon Quest is massively popular in Japan. I don't think a Dragon Quest representative is off the table this time around, especially considering that it's Square Enix's next biggest franchise after Final Fantasy.

 

[Idon]

I would literally stop playing Smash Bros all together. I know most of you disagree, but the more characters there are, the harder it is to balance. 100 characters is too many.

You say that like Smash has ever been balanced well to begin with...

 

[Deleted member]

Who knows. Dragon Quest in general has been picking up some steam in "leak" mentions, similar to Heihachi.

There's one problem with the Jade thing, I should mention.

The initial design draft for Ultimate was made back in December of 2015.
While Dragon Quest XI started development in 2013, the first trailer for it for the public wouldn't be until December of 2016, and Jade wouldn't have been able to amass such popularity as she has until early 2017, with the game getting released in July of that year.

For Jade to even be possible, both Sakurai AND Square-Enix would have had to bank on an even bigger gambit than when Sakurai banked on Greninja back in Smash 4.
So unless the leaks are saying she's DLC (which in itself is a red flag as it's unlikely DLC would be completely decided yet), any leak that has her is automatically false by pure logic.

Though you'd think they'd pick a more logical prediction over the flavor of the month (which clearly wasn't the case for Final Fantasy).

The only thing illogical about Jade is the timing as I just pointed out.
She is very much not just some "Flavor of the Month".

 

[P.Kat]

View attachment 153381 Here you have Isabelle using the New Leaf design. Longer limbs, longer body.

View attachment 153382Here you have Villager using the pre-New Leaf design. Shorter limbs, shorter body.

No. They don't have a very similar appearance at all.

To make Isabelle an Echo Fighter. You have to create a whole new design for her that dates her back to the pre-New Leaf look for Animal Crossing villagers, thus getting rid of her own iconic look in the process.

She doesn't really fit as an Echo. Even if you squint. So if she's getting in? It's original or not at all.

Hmm, I didn't know that, now I'm even more interested in what moveset Sakurai will give her if she makes it into Smash.

 

[Roberk]

When it comes to Chrom's Aether, it is different from Ike's. Jumping with the sword, more emphasis on horizontal movement, etc.

Honestly though, who cares? If we already have Lucina as a clone of Marth even though she has no way of being able to know how to fight like Marth/the Parallel Falchion being downsized by half to fit the original Falchion, I don't see how Chrom doing Ike's Aether and not his own to fit into an Echo is a problem. As I've said before, lots of Awakening is an amalgamation of FE mechanics, concepts, names, etc. mixed into one, so Chrom's "Aether" could very well be based on Ike's Aether already by sharing the same name and general movement/animation.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Dragon Quest is massively popular in Japan. I don't think a Dragon Quest representative is off the table this time around, especially considering that it's Square Enix's next biggest franchise after Final Fantasy.

There's one problem with the Jade thing, I should mention.

The initial design draft for Ultimate was made back in December of 2015.
While Dragon Quest XI started development in 2013, the first trailer for it for the public wouldn't be until December of 2016, and Jade wouldn't have been able to amass such popularity as she has until early 2017, with the game getting released in July of that year.

For Jade to even be possible, both Sakurai AND Square-Enix would have had to bank on an even bigger gambit than when Sakurai banked on Greninja back in Smash 4.
So unless the leaks are saying she's DLC (which in itself is a red flag as it's unlikely DLC would be completely decided yet), any leak that has her is automatically false by pure logic.



The only thing illogical about Jade is the timing as I just pointed out.
She is very much not just some "Flavor of the Month".

Very true, but one also has to consider that there's an entire stable of characters they could pick from to represent DQ in Smash, not just anybody that happens to be the more combat-oriented in XI. Dragon Quest Heroes alone has put several of said characters back into the limelight, so just about anybody of note can potentially be included as THE Smash rep.

 

[RileyXY1]

There's no guarantee that a Dragon Quest rep is even getting in.

 

[Opossum]

There's no guarantee that a Dragon Quest rep is even getting in.

No one said it was a guarantee.

 

[KMDP]

No one said it was a guarantee.

The "leaks" did.
---

I like to think Lucina is an in-joke, a special case. She plays like Marth because she pretended to be Marth.

EDIT: She lacks a tipper because she's not very good at being Marth (also... 'new' Falchion).

Honestly though, who cares? If we already have Lucina as a clone of Marth even though she has no way of being able to know how to fight like Marth

Do we even know how similar Marth and Chrom fight? I know he was self taught and he taught Lucina, but who’s to say they don’t fight even somewhat similarly.

Unless there’s a huge piece of lore I’m missing.

Not trying to argue about it, just genuinely curious.



This is probably a much better way to think about Lucina as a Marth echo. A nod to her disguise

Something else about the Marth/Lucina thing. Lucina's support with Tiki goes into just how similar Marth and Lucina are in personality (and actions).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Dragon Quest would most likely just get Slime as an assist trophy. If there was gonna be another Square character, I would place by bets on Agnes. I think we'll see these characters as assist trophies:

• Geno
• Slime
• Shovel Knight
• Rayman
• Arthur
• Bill & Lance
• Chrono Trigger
• Shantae
• Monster Hunter
• Arle Nadja & Carbuncle

If we're going to get anyone in the form of fighters, I would say the most likely characters are Simon, Heihachi, and maybe Lloyd.

 

[SlickWylde]

You say that like Smash has ever been balanced well to begin with...

Right, and it will just get worse if we keep adding truckloads of characters. Characters will also feel less developed/unique, it's just bound to happen.

I do notice that people who are younger seem down for more characters, and that's probably just because I don't have nearly as much time as they do, so I won't even be able to practice with half the characters by the time they master the whole cast.

If I was 15 with hundreds of free hours during the summer, I'd probably think 100 chars sounded awesome. Now, I can't even imagine how many barrels they would have to scrape.

 

[Noipoi]

Dragon Quest would most likely just get Slime as an assist trophy. If there was gonna be another Square character, I would place by bets on Agnes. I think we'll see these characters as assist trophies:

• Geno
• Slime
• Shovel Knight
• Rayman
• Arthur
• Bill & Lance
• Chrono Trigger
• Shantae
• Monster Hunter
• Arle Nadja & Carbuncle

If we're going to get anyone in the form of fighters, I would say the most likely characters are Simon, Heihachi, and maybe Lloyd.

If Geno ended up as an Assist people would Mcfreakin' lose it.
I don't even care about Geno and i'd Mcfreakin' lose it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There's no guarantee that a Dragon Quest rep is even getting in.

You're right. But you know what is inevitable? A Pokemon newcomer from Gen 7.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If Geno ended up as an Assist people would Mcfreakin' lose it.
I don't even care about Geno and i'd Mcfreakin' lose it.

GOOD.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

square has so many iconic characters why would Sakurai go for Agnes out of all people lol

 

[Deleted member]

Very true, but one also has to consider that there's an entire stable of characters they could pick from to represent DQ in Smash, not just anybody that happens to be the more combat-oriented in XI. Dragon Quest Heroes alone has put several of said characters back into the limelight, so just about anybody of note can potentially be included as THE Smash rep.

Just because there is "an entire stable of characters they could pick from" doesn't mean any one of them is specifically likely or that there will even BE a character picked at all.

The one they would pick if any of them would be the one that fans would want most.
Before DQXI, there was no such "definitive" character a majority would support that isn't just the mascot Slime monster.
After DQXI, Slime would actually have to contend with Jade.

Which is why I'm saying timing kills her chances outside DLC and any leak that has her as part of the base roster is automatically false.

 

[KMDP]

• Arle Nadja & Carbuncle

Ah, a new Echo Fighter for people to latch onto.

For Rosalina & Luma.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Dragon Quest would most likely just get Slime as an assist trophy. If there was gonna be another Square character, I would place by bets on Agnes. I think we'll see these characters as assist trophies:

• Geno
• Slime
• Shovel Knight
• Rayman
• Arthur
• Bill & Lance
• Chrono Trigger
• Shantae
• Monster Hunter
• Arle Nadja & Carbuncle

If we're going to get anyone in the form of fighters, I would say the most likely characters are Simon, Heihachi, and maybe Lloyd.

This is the worst timeline. The only AT I'd be okay with out of all of these is Bill & Lance.

Also, the main character of Chrono Trigger does NOT have the full title as his name.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You're right. But you know what is inevitable? A Pokemon newcomer from Gen 7.

I know you're joking but if we're going to discuss this for the fifty millionth time can we at least talk about anything beyond Mimikyu, Decidueye, Incineroar and Trash Dog? Like, ****, I don't know, Tsareena? Wishiwashi as a Pokeball? Remixes?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I don't know anything about Dragon Quest. Can someone tell me who is the mascot hero/protagonist of the series or who is the Cloud of the series? Besides Slime.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I honestly don't think there's a single echo fighter that's more popular than Daisy.

Otherwise they would have picked someone else to introduce the concept.

Another reason I don't think characters like Isabelle, Shadow, etc, make sense.

Because they definitely have more popularity than her.

To be honest, I figured if we're getting a second Sonic character, it's probably going to be either Tails or Dr. Eggman.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Animation re-targeting works for characters with much more disparate skeletons than these two. Plus Daisy isn't 100% reskinned animations, anyway, aside from the obvious stuff like idles and taunts, even some of her attacks are tweaked to fit her better. So the animations don't even need to port perfectly, because they've shown they're quite willing to alter them.

All this really shows is she's better suited for Echo than Alt.

Daisy is shorter than Peach too, isn't she? As is Lucina towards Marth. Echoes can't be too drastically different in terms of body structure, but they don't necessarily have to be the same, either.