Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

Now that you mentioned it... Villager's Side-B is also in an Animal Crossing stage, right?

And Pac Man ghosts shows up in a stage, moveset AND as an item.

And also how Knuckles still shows up at GHZ even though he’s also an assist trophy character

For now, the new rule is that any non-background character who you can interact with is considered disconfirmed.

Characters like Tails and Pauline are technically still viable (albeit extremely unlikely, but we're chalking up Tingle as disconfirmed.

Pauline as a playable character does sound satisfying

 

[KMDP]

I was making a comparison of the similarities between Pichu -> Pikachu and Birdo -> Yoshi.
That's all. The former has more.

I don't think either pair should be an echo pair.
Birdo is different enough to be a semi-clone was the point I was driving at, so the same as you.

Gotcha! If anything I was just expanding on your point. *insert Melee DK face here*

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

For now, the new rule is that any non-background character who you can interact with is considered disconfirmed.

Characters like Tails and Pauline are technically still viable (albeit extremely unlikely, but we're chalking up Tingle as disconfirmed.

And also how Knuckles still shows up at GHZ even though he’s also an assist trophy character

Pauline as a playable character does sound satisfying

I think it would only be safe to assume BG characters that aren't veterans can't do anything else outside of their assumed roles, after the game is out, not before. Fan rules seldom seem to last well around here.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy Kong does use his tail while performing the infinite portion of his neutral attack. However, I don't recall if that got changed in Smash Ultimate.

That move hasn't been seen yet. In his trailer, he does his jab (which now ends in a kick before the infinite instead of a tail hit), but not the infinite portion. Sense Diddy isn't in the demo, it's unknown at the moment if the infinite has been removed or not.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know we have some Boshi-As-Yoshi Echo fans in here, but why not Birdo as a Yoshi echo? All that'd have to change is her neutral b. Just copy-paste DeDeDe's inhale and make her eggs pink! Plus she's much more well known. I see her having a chance! (Provided she doesn't show up in the melee Mario 2 stage. Which is unlikely )

Birdo would not work as Yoshi's Echo Fighter. It's not a Yoshi's Island character, and even if it was, its moveset would also have to be (almost) exactly alike, which includes the special moves, but not the Final Smash.

 

[GunBlaze]

I think Pichu isn't considered an Echo because he's much smaller than Pikachu (also the self-harm thing). If he still has his old Down Aerial (Pikachu has a new one), then that's another difference.

Actually, the Nair was what changed with Pikachu, and Pichu's Nair is still unknown.

 

[KMDP]

Actually, the Nair was what changed with Pikachu, and Pichu's Nair is still unknown.

Ah, thanks for the correction.

 

[Cosmic77]

I tried to think of how Birdo would work as an Echo Fighter of Yoshi, and then I tried to figure out how the tongue would work.

Thank-you guys for that lovely mental image.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

Birdo would not work as Yoshi's Echo Fighter. It's not a Yoshi's Island character, and even if it was, its moveset would also have to be (almost) exactly alike, which includes the special moves, but not the Final Smash.

Ganondorf wasn't a F-zero character but he was a (And still is now a semi-) Falcon clone. And as I explained Birdo could replicate all of yoshi's special moves, with the only one needing some extra changes would be the neutral b. But even that could be kept with the exact same animation (Minus the tongue)

 

[DJ3DS]

Some food for thought here, but let's consider something for a moment.

We got a surprise Smash announcement at the end of the March Direct, waited a few months and argued about who would be added and who wouldn't be, found out everybody was coming back (some characters missing for almost 20 years), and now we're already back to debating who else will be in. Not only did we get everybody back (which is a landmark accomplishment for the series by the way), but we got Ridley, a character a large portion of the fnabase had written off or stopped supporting.

Listen, I'm excited about who else will be in the game as much as the next person but we've got to take a second and appreciate this game for what it is at this point in time. Long time fans of the series have probably already freaked out a bit. I myself have been that person...honestly, I almost cried watching the reveal trailer at E3. I still watch the Direct over again to get myself re-hyped up.

There's nothing wrong with wanting more from this game, as I myself am excited at the potential newcomers for this game. However, this thread has kinda...overlooked the fact that EVERY SINGLE VETERAN IS BACK. It was pretty much like, "Oh that's cool...alright, move on!"

Dudes, this is HUGE for Smash in terms of characters. It's also a huge workload for the team.

Last night I was with friends and one of them suggested the prospect of there not being any other characters on the roster. While I disagreed with him, it made me think. There's already 65 characters...how far are we going to go until people are satisfied? Will the Smash fanbase EVER be satisfied with what they get? Sometimes I question it.

(skip to 18:40 for the beginning of the Smash portion)
This here is a video from the Nintendo New York store during the E3 event. Fans were allowed in to view the Direct among other fans. This is one of my favorite videos of all time, because at the very moment they were watching the Direct, I was at work trying to keep my hype in check. These fans freaking out shows what the series means to them. That video only featured KNOWN Smash characters. They cheered, and cheered LOUD when they saw their favorite characters. I internally cheered when I saw all my favorites, and those I hadn't expected.

Appreciate this for a moment. Every time I watch this, I get chills.

The thing that always gets me about this video:

Meta Knight appears? Cheers
Ice Climbers appear? The place erupts
Bayonetta appears? loud booing

This video really puts into perspective how much people dislike the character, and almost entirely due to her smash appearance.

 

[NintenZ]

Any new leaks? I need some news cause we're starting to get into a drought since we haven't gotten anything substantial.

While obviously fake leaks can at least hold you over just a little.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I tried to think of how Birdo would work as an Echo Fighter of Yoshi, and then I tried to figure out how the tongue would work.

Thank-you guys for that lovely mental image.

Yoshi uses his tongue for Egg Lay, and his grab. I don't recall Birdo using a tongue to grab stuff by any means.

 

[Opossum]

I mean in theory the "tongue" could be invisible and just show Birdo sucking the foe in.

The real issue is which direction the eggs come out.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf wasn't a F-zero character but he was a (And still is now a semi-) Falcon clone. And as I explained Birdo could replicate all of yoshi's special moves, with the only one needing some extra changes would be the neutral b. But even that could be kept with the exact same animation.

Ganondorf was never Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter though. He may have copied most of Captain Falcon's attacks, but NOT his attributes.

 

[KMDP]

Yoshi uses his tongue for Egg Lay, and his grab. I don't recall Birdo using a tongue to grab stuff by any means.

Instead of a tongue, Birdo instead has Kirby's Inhale. Now, her grab on the other hand...

I mean in theory the "tongue" could be invisible and just show Birdo sucking the foe in.

The real issue is which direction the eggs come out.

The front, like Super Mario Bros. 2.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I mean in theory the "tongue" could be invisible and just show Birdo sucking the foe in.

The real issue is which direction the eggs come out.

The mouth, of course. I mean, we're not talking about a Dreamlander here.

 

[Opossum]

Instead of a tongue, Birdo instead has Kirby's Inhale. Now, her grab on the other hand...

The front, like Super Mario Bros. 2.

The mouth, of course. I mean, we're not talking about a Dreamlander here.

I'm just saying I'm wondering if the directional change would be too much to still constitute an echo.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

Ganondorf was never Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter though. He may have copied most of Captain Falcon's attacks, but NOT his attributes.

Lucina has different attributes than Marth though. She's Slightly shorter and has a balanced blade. Different attributes is what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter. and Ganondorf was a clone in melee too. He's just been changed over time.

 

[Idon]

I think cosmetic animation changes don't affect the "echo" status. So a move like Marcina's SB has a different charge animation, but still do the exact same thing. Likewise, spitting a egg/laying an egg might not be different enough.

 

[MysticKnives]

I think there's gonna be another one in Osaka.

Osaka? Heiji Hattori for Smash confirmed!

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, even if Birdo could somehow work as an Echo of Yoshi, I wouldn't like it at all. The tongue and egg-laying thing doesn't make sense, and the egg-spitting move from SMB2 is infinitely better-suited for Birdo.

A semi-clone would be the absolute minimal for me to accept Birdo in Smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Instead of a tongue, Birdo instead has Kirby's Inhale. Now, her grab on the other hand...

Kirby can Inhale for an infinite time period. Yoshi's Egg Lay only has a brief grab window, and it can't be extended by holding the special move button.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think it would only be safe to assume BG characters that aren't veterans can't do anything else outside of their assumed roles, after the game is out, not before. Fan rules seldom seem to last well around here.

Would definitely be reasonable for them to be like that

 

[KMDP]

Ganondorf was never Captain Falcon's Echo Fighter though. He may have copied most of Captain Falcon's attacks, but NOT his attributes.

This is a very important fact people tend to forget when discussing Echo Fighters.
Most of Melee's clones have different attributes. I think the closest characters to being Echo Fighters are 64 Luigi and Melee Falco.

Pichu is smaller, faster and lighter than Pikachu, and also self-damages.
Ganondorf is slower, heavier, and hits harder than Falcon.
Young Link, like Pichu, is smaller and faster than Link, he also has a slightly different Spin Attack and Fire Arrows (though these are more in line with Dark Pit)
Dr. Mario, like Ganondorf, is slower and heavier than Mario (or at least he was intended to be) and also hits harder.
Roy has a different sweetspot on his sword, if this was the only change (like Lucina), he'd be an Echo, but he's also a fast faller unlike Marth.

All I can remember of the specific differences of Falco is his slower blaster and reflector kick, really. As far as I know, Luigi was very similar to, almost the same as, Mario in SSB64; all that was different was the usual differences he had (slippery traction, higher jump).

 

[GunBlaze]

Lucina has different attributes than Marth though. She's Slightly shorter and has a balanced blade. Different attributes is what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter. and Ganondorf was a clone in melee too. He's just been changed over time.

But Lucina is not faster than Marth, either mobility-wise or attack-speed-wise. Also, the Dorf has some unique attacks, which Lucina doesn't.

 

[Bowserlick]

Birdo can have the suction be a graphical replacement of the tongue just as Dark Pit's arm special is a visual change.

She can throw eggs like Yoshi instead of spitting them out (Mariokart).
Her bodyframe matches Yoshi's pretty well.

I am just saying, Lucina fans probably would have said that she could not work as a straight up Marth replica with hit-boxes smoothed out.

Birdo would work better and be more true to her roots as a semi-clone, of course.

 

[Will]

I actually wonder how strong the AI will be for unlocking characters. I don't even know how tough the ones were in previous games.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

But Lucina is not faster than Marth, either mobility-wise or attack-speed-wise. Also, the Dorf has some unique attacks, which Lucina doesn't.

This is true, But she still has different attributes. Remember that it was stated she was planned as an alternate costume but her shorter stature and balanced blade necessitated that she be made her own character, albeit a clone.

And While Ganondorf has unique attacks now, he didn't in melee. Which was my point. He's not a clone now, but he used to be.

I doubt Birdo could be a yoshi alternate costume at all, but I still think her best chance (However low a chance) is as an echo fighter

 

[Will]

He's not a clone now, but he used to be.

Semi-clones are still a type of clones.

 

[GunBlaze]

This is true, But she still has different attributes. Remember that it was stated she was planned as an alternate costume but her shorter stature and balanced blade necessitated that she be made her own character, albeit a clone.

And While Ganondorf has unique attacks now, he didn't in melee. Which was my point. He's not a clone now, but he used to be.

I doubt Birdo could be a yoshi alternate costume at all, but I still think her best chance (However low a chance) is as an echo fighter

Jab, U-Tilt (sorta), Fair?

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

Semi-clones are still a type of clones.

This is true! I meant more in the vein of a lucina like clone

EDIT: GunBlaze whoops. I forgot about that stuff. My mistake friend.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

On that note, who else hasn't been theorized by the fake leaks that could catch people off-guard?

Some characters off the top of my head:

• A Dragon Quest character is slept on even though Erdrick has appeared in 5 leaks. Mainly due to a lack of western appeal
• A Persona character would come out of nowhere at all
• Reimu wouldn't be a joke anymore
• Yuri Lowell over Lloyd Irving would be pretty surprising. Leaks tend to underestimate Lloyd as well.
• Pauline and Birdo as the Mario Rep would definitely be cause for confusion
• Crankey Kong over other DK Reps.

Hmm...While I don't have access to DaybreakHorizon 's records, I'd say, as examples... (and at the risk of giving the 4chan leakers fodder)

Captain Syrup (Wario), Mona (Wario), Tails (Sonic), Amy Rose (Sonic), Blaze (Sonic), Tifa Lockhart (Final Fantasy VII), Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII) (though the real off the wall FF7 pick is Genesis), Joker (Persona)

The rest of these are pretty spot on, minus Tails.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Lucina has different attributes than Marth though. She's Slightly shorter and has a balanced blade. Different attributes is what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter. and Ganondorf was a clone in melee too. He's just been changed over time.

When I say attributes, I mean stuff like mobility, jumping, and weight. When comparing Marth to Lucina, they're both tied in terms of mobility, jumping, and weight. Their attacks are also alike, which includes the amount of lag they have, but their effects are different (similar to how Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm deals more horizontal knockback than Pit's Upperdash Arm).

 

[KMDP]

Lucina has different attributes than Marth though. She's Slightly shorter and has a balanced blade. Different attributes is what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter. and Ganondorf was a clone in melee too. He's just been changed over time.

But Lucina is not faster than Marth, either mobility-wise or attack-speed-wise. Also, the Dorf has some unique attacks, which Lucina doesn't.

This is true, But she still has different attributes. Remember that it was stated she was planned as an alternate costume but her shorter stature and balanced blade necessitated that she be made her own character, albeit a clone.

And While Ganondorf has unique attacks now, he didn't in melee. Which was my point. He's not a clone now, but he used to be.

I doubt Birdo could be a yoshi alternate costume at all, but I still think her best chance (However low a chance) is as an echo fighter

Lucina's height difference is very, very small (a pixel or two, at best), you'd have a hard time making a difference, hitbox-wise, even on purpose,

She's got the same weight, speed and general strength of Marth (not factoring in Marth's sweet-and-sour-spots), The sweetspot change is an attribute change that has great implications, but is ultimately a single change. If she was lighter than Marth, like Roy is heavier, then she wouldn't be an Echo.
,,,I think I got a bit lost in my point there...

The rest of these are pretty spot on, minus Tails.

WOO! 8 out of 9!

*weeps because nobody "leaks" Tifa*

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I hate Sakurai for coining Echo Fighter.

It's the worst thing to happen to this fanbase in a while.

Everyone is trying to shove characters into echo fighters that don't even make sense as echo fighters.

Even the most popular suggestions don't make sense. Isabelle, Shadow, etc. Shadow makes some sense if you consider he's like Daisy and has a similar appearance, but then you have people trying to shove characters like Isabelle who don't even have the same wire frame as Villager, etc, etc into an Echo Fighter.

And I think that's what an Echo Fighter is going to end up being truly. Someone you can shove onto the model of their counter part with relative ease.

So maybe Shadow and Dark Samus. But a lot of others like Birdo, Isabelle, Tails, etc, don't really make much sense.

 

[Will]

I hate Sakurai for coining Echo Fighter.

It's the worst thing to happen to this fanbase in a while.

Everyone is trying to shove characters into echo fighters that don't even make sense as echo fighters.

Even the most popular suggestions don't make sense. Isabelle, Shadow, etc. Shadow makes some sense if you consider he's like Daisy and has a similar appearance, but then you have people trying to shove characters like Isabelle who don't even have the same wire frame as Villager, etc, etc into an Echo Fighter.

And I think that's what an Echo Fighter is going to end up being truly. Someone you can shove onto the model of their counter part with relative ease.

So maybe Shadow and Dark Samus. But a lot of others like Birdo, Isabelle, Tails, etc, don't really make much sense.

Spoiler

It can happen in my dreams.

 

[Icedragonadam]

It's 2018 and someone made an article about a possible Smash "leak" from IMDB. You know ,that site where anyone can edit information?

Rumour: IMDb Lists Rhythm Heaven's The Chorus Kids For Super Smash Bros. Ultimate https://t.co/tVYNwfOozK #Repost #Rumour pic.twitter.com/OadrJ0XyjK

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) July 16, 2018

 

[Sigran101]

It would depend on if Sakurai considers Tapu Koko's concept art interesting enough; anime involvement doesn't hold much water when you look at how Greninja got into Smash 3DS / Wii U. But I feel that it probably has better odds of being a Poke Ball Pokemon or stage element.

I don't exactly think he's likely but at least he stands out from the pack. There's a reasonable chance unlike most of the other new Pokemon.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It's 2018 and someone made an article about a possible Smash "leak" from IMDB. You know ,that site where anyone can edit information?

Rumour: IMDb Lists Rhythm Heaven's The Chorus Kids For Super Smash Bros. Ultimate https://t.co/tVYNwfOozK #Repost #Rumour pic.twitter.com/OadrJ0XyjK

— Nintendo Life (@nintendolife) July 16, 2018

In theory IMDB would be the perfect place to do an actual roster leak that was just a random ass list, because no one would believe it even it were true.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Anyone think Daisy will be a bit stronger and slower than Peach?